172 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyJaneGrey]

Ryzaki wrote...

One of the many reasons the Alliance needs a major overhaul. I have no issue with something like the STG doing something morally grey. But the STG gets goddamn results without relying on Shepard.

+1

[George Silver]

Clone 071 wrote...

George Silver wrote...

I don't see either saving the council or letting it die as selfish. Either way you're trying to benefit the galaxy, whether it's human dominated or not.

I let the council live because now everyone sees humanity in a better light instead of power-hungry.

Letting the council die will benefit humanity in the short run, but in my opinion it won't help for long.

Letting them die promotes hatred amongst humans on the Citadel as they see humanity as power-hungry. They just lost their main Councilors with humanity replacing them. Therefore, the Council races don't really benefit.

Exactly, that's why in the long run I don't see letting them die as being the smart thing. A radical change such as an all human council would not only ****** everyone else off to the point of violence, but would force humanity to become more advanced (ex. cerberus with the collector base)

Letting the council lives does sacrifice human lives, but so that the rest of humanity can live more peacefully with the rest of the galaxy at large

[Dean_the_Young]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

That doesn't mean he deserves to drag Humanity down with him in his crusade for "Human Dominance". He may have been right about a few things, but sure as hell isn't right about everything.

And he'd likely be the first to admit it. But how has he 'dragged Humanity down with him' yet? What gives indication that his intents will do that?

The entire purpose of Cerberus, after all, and a purpose it has consistently fulfilled, was to receive blame on behalf of the Alliance and humanity.

And yes, I did vote for Anderson.  And he does appear quite popular with the people. And I probably would have voted for Hackett to Supreme Commander.

No, you didn't vote for Anderson. Anderson is a military officer who can get selected through backroom arangements with your endorsement. Likewise, the position of Supreme Commander is also not up for a vote.

[GreenDragon37]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Again, he wants to look good in the eyes of the people. He may do a few good things But underneath his bull lies an ulterior motive of Human Domination. TIM is a smart man. Making people think he's alright, when actuality, he has something far more sinister going on in the background.

It's all a game.

Mass Effect series? Yes. TIM's motives? You have yet you never provide any support for your position. Infact, you're repeatedly backed off any point on which you are challenged, simply repeating the same position with slightly different wording, ignorring the fact you aren't even protesting what you think you're protesting.

Domination does not, and never has, mean a lack of cooperation. In history, domination has been impossible without extensive networks of cooperation.

Domination means you put someone over the other! Usually, domination sure as hell isn't a good thing for the one's getting dominated. <_<

You seem to think domination is a good thing. Try asking my grandparents how it was being under the domination of a certain "group" in a country that hated them because of a certain "genetic difference". I bet they'll tell you it wasn't fun.

I've given my reasonings. But now it looks like we're playing a friendly game of politics.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:16 .

[Teknor]

Domination can be good or bad thing. It is all situational.

[GreenDragon37]

Teknor wrote...

Domination can be good or bad thing. It is all situational.

It's only good for the ones in charge. It's terrible for the ones who aren't. How would the galaxy take it when they discover that a small group of upstarts -a complete minority at that- comes in and puts the jackboot down on them?

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:19 .

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The 5th Fleet has been locked on the far side of the galaxy. Shepard holds the keys to letting them in. How are they better informed, when they only just caught the end-tail of the battle, the DA's distress call once Shepard started Vigil's program?

Shep has just arrived from Ilos. She knows nothing about the battle.

How many geth ships? How many citadel ships? Where are they?

Shep knows that the DA's barriers are down...and that the council is on board. I think Hackett has a better overview as soon as he arrives.

[jbblue05]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

That doesn't mean he deserves to drag Humanity down with him in his crusade for "Human Dominance". He may have been right about a few things, but sure as hell isn't right about everything.

And yes, I did vote for Anderson.  And he does appear quite popular with the people. And I probably would have voted for Hackett to Supreme Commander.

Andrson sucks on the council,  The council only likes him because he is easy to push around, manipulate,  and doesn't know how politics works.
Anderson really messed up in Retribution which is further proof he's an incompetent politician.

That is so hilarious to me people call Cerberus incompetent, but they insist and believe Anderson is the better Council member even when all the evidence shows he sucks 

[jayred vas normandy]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

jayred vas normandy wrote...

my question is why is the goal of human dominance wrong. do u think the other races don't want to be top dog.

Im not saying impose our will on other races, but to strive for the most ur race can achive is worthy cause.

u think the turians don't have shadow projects to give them a tactical edge.

When you try for complete dominance, you turn everyone against you. There's evidence throughout history what happens when one group tries to extend it's cultural, racial, and power-based dominance all across the globe. It just pisses everyone off.

With your train of thinking, Hitler was right. "The ends justify the means, so long as the Aryan race dominates the world."

Or in this case, "as long as Humanity dominates the Galaxy, everything we did to get here was good."

It's the same train of thought.

wow. hitler?   its just plain stupid to think that once this is all said and done that all will be great and there will never be any disagrement between races. thats just wishful thinking. if noones trying to keep humans at the forfront of the galactic community in the areas of tech, gov. and military. then it wont be long befor someone comes along and knocks us off the pedistol that we are placing our selves on. U don't have to impose your will on every one to still try to move your people ahead.  ceberus goals of human dominace if kept in check will give us a competative edge. we are playing a game with races that have been at it for longer, and know how to play better and the have bigger guns ( DA, thanix cannons)

[GreenDragon37]

jbblue05 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

That doesn't mean he deserves to drag Humanity down with him in his crusade for "Human Dominance". He may have been right about a few things, but sure as hell isn't right about everything.

And yes, I did vote for Anderson.  And he does appear quite popular with the people. And I probably would have voted for Hackett to Supreme Commander.

Andrson sucks on the council,  The council only likes him because he is easy to push around, manipulate,  and doesn't know how politics works.
Anderson really messed up in Retribution which is further proof he's an incompetent politician.

That is so hilarious to me people call Cerberus incompetent, but they insist and believe Anderson is the better Council member even when all the evidence shows he sucks 

And is Udina any better? He sold you out to the Council in ME 1, never believed you, and almost doomed the galaxy. He impeded your progress far more than Anderson ever did.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]GreenDragon37 wrote...

Domination means you put someone over the other! Usually, domination sure as hell isn't a good thing for the one's getting dominated. <_<[/quote]Indeed. And that in no way rules out cooperation.

Cooperation does not exist as a standard, let alone dominant, process for it's own sake. Cooperation exists because it can be mutually beneficial. Dominance does not mean one person wins, and everyone else loses and is oppressed. It never has.

[quote]
You seem to think domination is a good thing. Try asking my grandparents how it was being under the domination of a certain "group" in a country that hated them because of a certain "genetic difference". I bet they'll tell you it wasn't fun. [/quote]I don't know why you seem to think I think that, since I haven't made any such claim.

Dominance is far more widespread, and far less malevolent, than racist occupation. You're parents are dominant over you. Your teachers are in a position of dominance. If you have younger siblings, it's likely you are dominant over them. You will be dominant over your children.

When you spread out your awareness, dominance is even more obvious. Policemen are dominant. Politicians are dominant. Your national government is dominant over your city.

Expand to the international field. In the relationship between, say, the US and Europe, the US is unquestionably the stronger, dominant actor. That does not mean it is horrible, oppressive, or even a bad relationship.

You can see the same in ME's universe. The Council is dominant. The Council has waged multiple wars, and conducted multiple genocides, and enable a cadre of unaccountable operatives freely allowed corruption and murder and anything else, to keep that dominance.

Dominance is not 'good', but it is not innately evil or cruel or harmful. The most relatively peaceful periods in history have been periods of clear, accepted dominance.

[quote]
I've given my reasonings. But now it looks like we're playing a friendly game of politics, now aren't we?
[/quote]Nope. Ignorance and presumption.

[/quote]

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The 5th Fleet has been locked on the far side of the galaxy. Shepard holds the keys to letting them in. How are they better informed, when they only just caught the end-tail of the battle, the DA's distress call once Shepard started Vigil's program?

Shep has just arrived from Ilos. She knows nothing about the battle.

Hackett doesn't know that: Shepard could well know privalged info. Hackett trusts your judgement.

How many geth ships? How many citadel ships? Where are they?

You don't know (or rather, the game relies on narrative at this point), and Hackett doesn't know you don't know the situation better than him.

Shep knows that the DA's barriers are down...and that the council is on board. I think Hackett has a better overview as soon as he arrives.

Why would he? He's been on the far end of the galaxy. You have privalged information (from being at the battlefield and potentially hearing things of note, for knowing the true scope of the threat.)

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:29 .

[Dean_the_Young]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Teknor wrote...

Domination can be good or bad thing. It is all situational.

It's only good for the ones in charge. It's terrible for the ones who aren't. How would the galaxy take it when they discover that a small group of upstarts -a complete minority at that- comes in and puts the jackboot down on them?

So you turned out terribly because of your parents, your school system, and your government?

Or have you simply never given thought to how many people have been dominant over you?

[jayred vas normandy]

/quote]I don't know why you seem to think I think that, since I haven't made any such claim.

Dominance is far more widespread, and far less malevolent, than racist occupation. You're parents are dominant over you. Your teachers are in a position of dominance. If you have younger siblings, it's likely you are dominant over them. You will be dominant over your children.

When you spread out your awareness, dominance is even more obvious. Policemen are dominant. Politicians are dominant. Your national government is dominant over your city.

Expand to the international field. In the relationship between, say, the US and Europe, the US is unquestionably the stronger, dominant actor. That does not mean it is horrible, oppressive, or even a bad relationship.

You can see the same in ME's universe. The Council is dominant. The Council has waged multiple wars, and conducted multiple genocides, and enable a cadre of unaccountable operatives freely allowed corruption and murder and anything else, to keep that dominance.

Dominance is not 'good', but it is not innately evil or cruel or harmful. The most relatively peaceful periods in history have been periods of clear, accepted dominance.



............................................................................................................................................................................................................


this is what i think of when u sa dominant

Modifié par jayred vas normandy, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:31 .

[jbblue05]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

 And is Udina any better? He sold you out to the Council in ME 1, never believed you, and almost doomed the galaxy. He impeded your progress far more than Anderson ever did.

I see your one of those poeple who chose Andeson because he was nicer to you

Udina is way better.  He was CHOSEN to be the ambassador to the Council.

Udina didn't believe you becuase the Reaper theory sounds so far-fetched even the COuncil didn't believe you.

Udina didn't impede your progress the COuncil didn't want you going to Ilos.  Udina didn't want you ruining all the good you've done for humanity by defying the Council 

[GreenDragon37]

jayred vas normandy wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

jayred vas normandy wrote...

my question is why is the goal of human dominance wrong. do u think the other races don't want to be top dog.

Im not saying impose our will on other races, but to strive for the most ur race can achive is worthy cause.

u think the turians don't have shadow projects to give them a tactical edge.

When you try for complete dominance, you turn everyone against you. There's evidence throughout history what happens when one group tries to extend it's cultural, racial, and power-based dominance all across the globe. It just pisses everyone off.

With your train of thinking, Hitler was right. "The ends justify the means, so long as the Aryan race dominates the world."

Or in this case, "as long as Humanity dominates the Galaxy, everything we did to get here was good."

It's the same train of thought.

wow. hitler?   its just plain stupid to think that once this is all said and done that all will be great and there will never be any disagrement between races. thats just wishful thinking. if noones trying to keep humans at the forfront of the galactic community in the areas of tech, gov. and military. then it wont be long befor someone comes along and knocks us off the pedistol that we are placing our selves on. U don't have to impose your will on every one to still try to move your people ahead.  ceberus goals of human dominace if kept in check will give us a competative edge. we are playing a game with races that have been at it for longer, and know how to play better and the have bigger guns ( DA, thanix cannons)

And what do you think domination entails? Usually, it's  imposing your will on those that you have placed beneath you! That
is dominance!  Humanity dominates the Council in ME 2 if you killed the old Council. They took it by force, and now everyone has to conform to Human rules. There is no Alien representation in the Council if you took this path, otr very, very little. How did the aliens react to this? They're preparing for war and doing whatever it takes to impede your progress. And not without good reason.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:42 .

[GreenDragon37]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Teknor wrote...

Domination can be good or bad thing. It is all situational.

It's only good for the ones in charge. It's terrible for the ones who aren't. How would the galaxy take it when they discover that a small group of upstarts -a complete minority at that- comes in and puts the jackboot down on them?

So you turned out terribly because of your parents, your school system, and your government?

Or have you simply never given thought to how many people have been dominant over you?

The way Cerberus wants it isn't good. What gives one, single race the right to domiate the others because they "aren't Human"? Cerberus believes in race-based dominance. Not in the way you described.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:43 .

[TheBRADLeyB]

Ryzaki wrote...

Like the others have said heretic geth are a small portion of Geth.

Also Cerberus is plain boring and inept.

First of all people, Cerberus is the strongest Pro-Human Organization in the Galaxy. They do not care the price to secure humanity will survive, if they must torture and kill a thousand humans to save a billion they will.

I don't see how you can call Cerberus 'plain boring and inept'

How inept can an Organization be that brought back from death the first human Spectre?

Cerberus to me is like a KGB/CIA. Secretive and Motivated by the end results. What's not to like?

Although I can see how people really hate Cerberus... I mean they almost killed Shepard in my game (Survivor of Akuze).

I don't see how you can say they are boring and inept though.

[Chuvvy]

Doesn't Cerberus get ****ed in the third book?

[GreenDragon37]

jbblue05 wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

 And is Udina any better? He sold you out to the Council in ME 1, never believed you, and almost doomed the galaxy. He impeded your progress far more than Anderson ever did.

I see your one of those poeple who chose Andeson because he was nicer to you

Udina is way better.  He was CHOSEN to be the ambassador to the Council.

Udina didn't believe you becuase the Reaper theory sounds so far-fetched even the COuncil didn't believe you.

Udina didn't impede your progress the COuncil didn't want you going to Ilos.  Udina didn't want you ruining all the good you've done for humanity by defying the Council 

It happens in ME2 anyway. All of the "good" you've done is covered up. They toss you aside, Anderson tries to at least defend you. What does Udina do? Act like the Reapers don't exist.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:44 .

[jbblue05]

Slidell505 wrote...

Doesn't Cerberus get ****ed in the third book?

yep suprise attack by the Turians and Anderson.
They almost killed TIM

[GreenDragon37]

jbblue05 wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Doesn't Cerberus get ****ed in the third book?

yep suprise attack by the Turians and Anderson.
They almost killed TIM

I wish they did. Oh well, there's always ME 3!

[jbblue05]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

It happens in ME2 anyway. All of the "good" you've done is covered up. They toss you aside, Anderson tries to at least defend you. What does Udina do?

All that matters is Udina is most qualified human for the position.  Again putting Anderson on the Council is a selfish choice because he's nicer to you.

Bioware forces you to be buddy buddy with Anderson while they try to make you rivals with Udina.

[jayred vas normandy]

dean give the best example of dominance.

but just because ur dominant dosent mean your a dictator.

asari are dominant but not opressive.

u.s gov is dominant over state gov.

my boss is dominant over me at work

being the dominant power dosent mean that ur evil.

Cerberus i will admit need and oversight commitee but that where my shep comes in (oversight with a thermo clip)

Modifié par jayred vas normandy, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:46 .

[GreenDragon37]

jayred vas normandy wrote...

dean give the best example of dominance.

but just because ur dominant dosent mean your a dictator.

asari are dominant but not opressive.

u.s gov is dominant over state gov.

my boos is dominant over me at work

being the dominant power dosent mean that ur evil.

Cerberus i will admit need and oversight commitee but that where my shep comes in (oversight with a thermo clip)

Cerberus believes in one- Race based dominance, doing whatever it takes. The all Human Council is the perfect example of this. If you're an ailien you can't vote off the all Human Council now can you? You'll probably be silenced anyway.Then again, people love the guys who want power. Which is obvious here. <_<

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 05 janvier 2011 - 08:50 .