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Module released at a bad time?


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#26
Eguintir Eligard

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Thats my mistake I guess for repeating Fate of a City's mistake and trying to cater for everyone. That's why made my campaign take so long. Theres voicing, custom spells, many companions, large party, choose a quest play, linear play, the list goes on. I cant really tell if it as a bad idea, it just doesnt seem to attract all that well. The response is good to great from everyone who has finished so far.

PS Bert you have only posted on bug that I can see in the Islander thread, and as I said to the other person, that is not a bug that is how the game was intended to function. So I don't see why I am being acused of using you as a test group. If you were able to rest at the start it would break the game, so it might be time for you to retry the game. Also, even if the guards didnt talk to you first, you can click on them to talk. But at this point you need to have the new version of the game to apply the latest patch. I dont see having to click on a guard to talk as a reason to redownload the entire game however. Just talk to the guard and move on with the the campaign, never a problem again.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 05 janvier 2011 - 10:55 .


#27
kamalpoe

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Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Thats my mistake I guess for repeating Fate of a City's mistake and trying to cater for everyone.

Well Fate of a City has the setting specific hook. Islander from what I see also has this. If the hook is the setting, you want to flesh it out as best as possible.

#28
Eguintir Eligard

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It sounds to me overall, that the theoretical sequel would have much more hook than the original game. Because it uses custom content and a setting I have not seen at all in any campaign yet. Something to think of I guess.

#29
PJ156

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I think that the holiday may be part of it but time will tell since Christmas is now over. As has been dicussed, presenting the mod here in the weeks leading up to the release has to help. I like to think there are a fair few lurkers out there, watching and not posting. New people often pop up on the baldurs gate thread.

I commented on your low download count in another thread. I was surprised at how low it was. I can only guess at timing and advertising.

My mods average 10 - 15 downloads a week for S&S and 12 - 20 for CC. 5000 downloads is a very long way away, perhaps an impossibility for me. But at least the count is steady and the overall numbers are rising.

Also I am just watching and waiting for you and Kamal to knock me off the top 15 Image IPB. I wish you luck with that aspect of the mod I think getting onto that top 15 list is a huge advantage.

Things get very slow if you get knocked off the new mods before you hit ten votes. That can be a huge pain. Edinmoor suffered that fate I think. A very good mod lost in limbo simply for lack of votes in time.

Anyways, nothing new added here I guess. I hope things speed up for you, at least as modders we have an understanding of the time taken to do a mod and can sympathise with the pain of others.

PJ

Modifié par PJ156, 05 janvier 2011 - 11:44 .


#30
Kaldor Silverwand

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Take heart that there will be a bunch of newbies buying NWN2 on Steam and certainly some of them will be looking for additional content after they finish the OC, MotB, and SoZ.



Regards

#31
MasterChanger

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I do think that at this point in the life-cycle of NWN2* people want to see something unique in an adventure to make them want to play it. I know that's the case for me. The hook you added, showcasing the mystery of the situation, certainly helps me be interested.

You talk about authors specifying what people can and can't expect in their adventures. I think this is a wonderful thing. However, the authors run the risk that someone will decide that the adventure isn't for them. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as the audience the author seeks to serve will still be large enough to satisfy them that their work is appreciated. The balancing act between a large, somewhat-interested audience and a more focused, very eager audience is not easy.

I will say that personally, when I read that your adventure would be high-magic from the get-go, I decided it wasn't for me. Again, that's ok, not every adventure has to be one I want to play. Hopefully, there will still be enough others who do want to.


* Even with the nice bump from the Steam version

#32
nicethugbert

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Again, EE, bugs was an example of things that can turn off a player and I didn't accuse your module in this thread of having bugs, you did.




#33
Eguintir Eligard

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"The Nile is a river in Egypt.



I posted the same bug that someone else posted earlier. "



What was that then?

#34
Eguintir Eligard

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Ok new idea I wanna run by you folks:



What about showing some pixel-censored bare boobs in every one of my screenshot and promise lots more in-game?



Don't have to deliver but by the time they find out its a lie the game is downloaded :D

#35
kamalpoe

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Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Ok new idea I wanna run by you folks:

What about showing some pixel-censored bare boobs in every one of my screenshot and promise lots more in-game?

Works for DAO mod, 4 of the top 10 mods are nekkid women.

#36
Hellfire_RWS

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Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Ok new idea I wanna run by you folks:

What about showing some pixel-censored bare boobs in every one of my screenshot and promise lots more in-game?

Don't have to deliver but by the time they find out its a lie the game is downloaded :D


+1  :happy:

#37
dunniteowl

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Lots of lurkers here and on every forums.  I can vouch for the fact that every time I visit a thread the view counter does not increase other than my first appearance.  I have to believe this is the case for all users.  So a low thread view count is not the 3-10 people coming back and checking the thread and increasing the count.  If that were so, just my daily 3x checking of new posts would bounce up the views count immeasurably!  Image IPB

Release timing at this time of year is probably it more than anything else.  My viewing experience shows me that the period just after Thanksgiving to mid January is pretty dolgarn slow, boards wise.  Another very slow period is when we were forcibly moved to the BSN, which is not only slow due to summer vacation, it's also slow due to folks getting ready to come back to school the world over.  And that period is generally even slower than the Holiday season, because even if you're not at work or school and at home, you're probably outside.

So I can assure you that, anecdotally speaking, you released at an inopportune moment.

I would also like to say this and I mean absolutely no disrespect in this, it's just my observation:
You seem to accentuate the negative and I think that translates into the way you write when posting.  I haven't read all the Islander boilerplate, but that could be affecting your verve and prose in small ways that people might not be able to put their finger on, but are somehow slightly put off by it. And I say this only with the idea in mind that marketing has to accentuate the positive and completely pretend there's no such things as negative.

I'm a Glass is half-full kind of guy and I like to promote in a way that I hope not only entertains and amuses, but also piques interest.  You could do that too. 

Let's take the loosely paraphrased statement:  I guess that's part of the problem, I was trying to be all things to all people.

Wow.  That's not a problem, that's a selling bullet point.  Like this instead:
Islander Has It ALL!  That's right folks, we've got tons of custom voiceovers and synchronized lip movements in important dialogue and cutscenes!  It's amazing!  It's like you're THERE!

But wait, there's more!  We've got all kinds of Spells, classes and Monsters galore!  And we don't stop there!  We've got dialogue and skills checks options that would choke a rideable horse (if we had them) and how you choose affects the rest of the story!  You gotta see it to believe it.

Sure, that's over the top.  Sure it's hyperbole.  It's marketing.  And sometimes, that's exactly the right thing to do.  And posting a soft fuzzed chest area of a buxom woman is a good ploy to aid that.  Image IPB  So you get a +1 from me on that idea as well.

And I don't mean to imply that someone who has a semi-pessimistic tone isn't smart or creative or a force to contend with.  Fate of a City, IMO was a great module and I have been looking forward to seeing Islander released.  I have yet to download it because my schedule is just -- well crazy.  I like the way you make your modules, if FoaC is any marker.

And, because I didn't want to say, "You write good!" I figured I'd point out a few things that are designed to make you take a moment and go, Hmm.  (thanks, Skywing!)

I know the count is important to you and I totally respect that.  I think though, that there are things that get in your way that you don't even realize.  It's obvious you put a lot of work and effort into your production and I think the module shows that in the long run.  And I think, in the long run, a more positive approach to marketing yourself (and don't take yourself too seriously -- have fun with it!) would be of a great benefit to you.  Let the love and desire to create show through.  Let the story carry the marketing by marketing the story as an intro to it.  Thematics.

If you make a few small changes, I'm willing to bet that the count will increment upwards.

Also the others you mention, like Trinity and Risen Hero, their count, I honestly think, was affected by the tight lipped overall development cycle.  You gotta feed the crowd from time to time and tease them with hints of what may come.  It's part of the process and if the download count is that important, then that's part of playing the game of promoting yourself and driving interest.  Watch how they overpump upcoming episodes in TV series shows and Theater movies.  You'd think that your life would be diminished if you missed it.  That's how you have to fish.

A Moral Tale:
A friend of mine and I used to eat all the time at the same place (US Air Force Chow Hall) and we'd usually order the same things off the grill in the morning for breakfast.  One morning I noticed my friend, (we'll call him Mel) frowning deeper than usual and staring between my plate and his.

"What," I asked?

"How come we have the same thing, but your bacon is crispy and mine's all rubbery?  How come you have 4 strips and I only have 2?  Why is my omelette runny and yours is nice and fluffy and you have extra cheese in it, too?  How come I have 3 pancakes and you have 4?"

I was stunned.  So stunned that I really looked at the plates and by golly gosh!  He was right!

"Why is that," he asked, "when the same guy cooks our food and we ordered the same thing at the same time?"

And it hit me.  "Well, how do you order your food, Mel?"  He stared at me.  I looked at him and said, "Here's how you order:  Give me some pancakes, I'll take some bacon and I want a cheese omelette." 

Here's how I order: "Hey, man, how you doing today?  I'm fine, yeah.  Hey, could you make me some pancakes please?  And if it's not too much trouble, I'd like a cheese omelette and some crispy bacon if you don't mind.  Yeah, you take care too, nice talking to you."

And that's the difference.  Presentation.  He didn't believe me.  So I said, "You do it like I do it for 6 weeks and if your breakfast doesn't change and be as good as mine, I'll admit I'm wrong."  So he did.  And I promptly forgot all about it after the first 3 days or so.

A while later, we're sitting there having breakfast and I'm busy spreading jam all over my cheese omelette and out of the blue Mel says, "You know, you're right."

So I said, "Of course I am.  What about?"

And he pointed out his breakfast to me.  I was right.

And all it took was to ask for the same things in a slightly different way and it was like night and day.  It works and it shows, even if you don't realize it, how the way you present, in words and writing, what you have to present.

And rest assured, Mel is quite possibly one of my best friends ever in my life.  I'd push him out of the way of an oncoming train or stop a bullet for him, but he was a bit too terse for his own good.  And I don't know if I'd stop a bullet for you Eguintir, but the advice is the same for a friend online as I would give to my good friend, Mel.
(and to anyone else who ever wonders, why is my stuff not as interesting, good, flavorful as that guy's?)

best regards,
dunniteowl

#38
Eguintir Eligard

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I take that Aesops tale to me I'm pessimistic poster.  I'll give you both sides. I compliment when it is due as well, and I have never been "negative" to other peoples work. Just my own. And Obsidians. Come to think of it I'm not even sure thats pessimism anymore, but is it sugar coating and optimistic?surely not. I'll be honest and upfront. The fact that you choose to focus only on the pessimistic things I say, says something about your own pessimism ;)

I have a little fable of my own to put in vs your fable, and your overflowing optimism (optimism being ideal for a person of your position and power), but none-the-less:

Cave man A is a pessimist. When he is asleep and is awoken by a noise outside, he immediately scowls, grabs his club, and goes to find out the problem.

Cave man B is an optimist. When he is asleep, he assumes it's some wombat going through his bushes and goes back to sleep, smiling in amusement.

Cave man B was eaten by a dinosaur, as were all of his friends and relatives.
Cave man A was your great x1000 grandfather.

The moral of the story; without pessimists you would not exist.


I tell that story purely because it reminded me of a college lecture; there is no argument intended. Amusement, hopefully.

And the topic at hand; I don't put much stalk in the viewers of this forum being a large chunk of the vault though. As has been said, the vault is pretty much a game of keeping on that sidebar, or you sink. It's vastly a crowd of completely in the dark people trying to grab some kind of snapshot of your module and then choosing to try it.

What I have taken from your reply though is a little enthusiasm about my own campaign could help sell it. I used to see a lot a modders give tons of detail and make their module look great in SSes to the point where they couldnt possible match expectations, but they got the downloads so maybe they were onto something. Sometimes the effect even kind of puts the "expectancy" thing to work, where it seems better simply because of the anticipation. I've been rather hard on my own work and maybe too willing to point out its flaws (for example im first to say i'm not a great terrainer etc).

I think the timing issue is more or less showing to be the case, asthe downloads trickling in now seem to be at the same pace as about day 2 on. Maybe it will all even out and it's just not as front loaded as some of the summer releases are.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 06 janvier 2011 - 05:52 .


#39
Eguintir Eligard

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Incidentally in the old forums, the views WERE per click. I would post, view my post, correct it and there would be 4 views. That is not the case here it seems, so maybe there are a good amount of lurkers. Would love if they spoke up and breathed some life in here though.

#40
nicethugbert

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Eguintir Eligard wrote...

"The Nile is a river in Egypt.

I posted the same bug that someone else posted earlier. "

What was that then?


A rebuttle to your asserton that your module did not have bugs when I did not accuse your module of havng bugs but mearly giving an example of what turns people off to a module.

Yes, boobies plz.

#41
nicethugbert

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A see your fable and I raise you realty. Look at American politics today to see how politicians cynically exploit pessimism to pacify the public with hopelessness.

#42
Eguintir Eligard

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Don't try to bring your politics into the forum. I'm canadian, and we don't take kindly to politics. And I've never left my country, so this America you speak of could be in Faerun as far as I know.

#43
Stinglock

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Kaldor Silverwand wrote...

Take heart that there will be a bunch of newbies buying NWN2 on Steam and certainly some of them will be looking for additional content after they finish the OC, MotB, and SoZ.

Regards


Hell yeah! Newbie rite here.

It's such a painful download for the modules though, seems like it's rarely compressed and all sharing the bandwith with the nwn2 server thingy. I'll grab this one as I saw something about parties.

#44
Eguintir Eligard

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Please enjoy. I've never seen a module that isnt compressed though. Regardless I can assure you mine is compressed. It's just a big game, which means big play time!

#45
nicethugbert

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Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Don't try to bring your politics into the forum. I'm canadian, and we don't take kindly to politics. And I've never left my country, so this America you speak of could be in Faerun as far as I know.


Then read Machavelli and make an evil module.

#46
The Fred

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Jam? On a cheese omelette?

#47
BartjeD

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Machiavelli isn't evil that's a misunderstanding! He wrote that book for Lorenzo to help him govern well and be good ruler! It's just that many "virtues" such as being benevolent tend to backfire. You can only be benevolent as a lord if you have the money. To keep it up you will have to tax, leading to perverse situations. Therefore being a "giving" lord is a virtue that will turn into a vice. It is a trait that you cannot rely on not to backfire.



Likewise he talks about being loved and hated. They both are the same as benevolence / freegiving. Ideally you will be both. Loved for caring and doing the right thing. Hated for forcing them to do it and holding them to a higher standard.

#48
Shaughn78

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There is a lot that goes into why a module is or isn't downloaded.

Selling your product is the biggest. I know I did little of this. I have the blog which I update, but for the most part it is a core group of people you follow and comment on it. That also isn't the best tool for getting known. There are too many modules and too many blogs to expect players to dig through them all.

The module page is mostly builders. We know what the other is working on, but most of us don't nessecarily have the time to play each release. We all comment on our "to play list", but building takes a huge amount of time. I occasionally post here and the old forum, but recieved very little feedback. Explaining new systems or ideas get a couple of replies but very few. Screenshots  tend to get some feedback, but mostly "looks good". DNO has posted a link on the general directing players to the module page, but I haven't seen a huge influx.  

One thing I would attribute to the lower downoad numbers is the complexity of the download and install. I knew this going in, but chose to go with more custom content. Asking a player to download several larger files and then place this here and that there beyond the campaign, hak and module folder is a risk. Especially when you include the evil and no good override folder.

Kaedrin pack is great stuff, but to include it can be a challange if the module has a lot of custom content. EE I imagine if you wanted to include it, it would take a few hours to an afternoon, depending on how much custom content you have. With my release I had 8 2das that needed to be merged and only 1 or 2 of the k_mod scripts. With the next release I am up to 11 merged 2das and about 1/2 dozen scripts.

The dreaded bugs. These are going to pop up. At release I though I had them. A couple of playtesters ripped through the game and found a bunch of things, plus I played it countless times. But there are some many ways of approaching things and sometimes it is also just luck or the lack of it. Most of the people seem to get through with no issues, but a small group seem to find (or report) bugs. It is a matter of keeping up with the fixes, other players will see the bug reports in the comments section, you only hope that they will also see the replies that they have been quickly fixed.

One thing you could try EE, that is if you haven't, post an announcement on the general discussion page. "Hey it's 2011, but don't forget these greats from 2010."  Include the short hook paragraph and a link to the vault.

Modifié par Shaughn78, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:50 .


#49
The Fred

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It's true - playing modules takes time. I have a long "to-play" list, but I've only actually ever played one community-made NWN2 module, and which I intend to play a good deal more, it's not something I've gotten around to just yet. Getting an NWN2 module out to a big audience is always going to be tricky given the poor marketing the game itself got and the effects of the board move, etc. Still, I'd say the time of year probably is indeed one of the biggest factors. There's not much you can do about that now, though.

#50
Eguintir Eligard

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I always made a point to play other p eoples modules (at least start them. A lot I came back to in like a year lol but I got em out).

I am not sure what the list is for kaedrins, I just know I have a 2da with custom armors (that a smith crafts for you). There is no way around this right? If they have his pack, its goint to overwrite my armors and make them look stupid or I am going to overwrite kaedrin and and break the thing?

Or is it ok to override kaedrins base items since I am forcing a stripped character at game begin?
And what is Kaedrin anyway, an override? I have my 2da in a hak so it will get chewed up. And if I put THAT into override now theres a fight to see which 2da in the override wins. Or is this overrideable somehow with out erasing part of the players keadrin?

My first exposure to Kaed was testing Risen Hero front end. Since Shaugn has so much CC I wasnt sure what was and wasnt Kaed, but I gotta say just the weapon switching feature to me, was vital. I want to support that if I can I just dont see a way around the baseitems.2da unless my 2nd assumption is right.

I can put in the work.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 06 janvier 2011 - 04:40 .