126 réponses à ce sujet

[Madame Rose Crimsynn]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Snoteye wrote...
The first time you enter Redcliffe, Alistair initiates dialogue (or does he just ask you to?). Are interactions like those gone, too, or is it only the personal stuff that has been restricted to private quarters?

It means that you're not going to be able to stop in the middle of a dungeon and ask Varric to tell you about dwarves. He can still start a conversation wherever he likes, when it's appropriate.

So conversations will now be done realistically? That's really nice... I hated how I could randomly start chewing people's ears off right by the High Dragon in Origins, but hated how in Awakening, you only got small blips of things being said to you by your companions no matter where you were (unless you found the random objects, gave them a plot gift, or they intiated the convos).

[Zjarcal]

Snoteye wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Actually, I remember that Gaider was very defensive of the Awakening dialog system, while being very critical of the Origins dialog system at the same time.

Awakening's approach makes for far more natural, and potentially deeper, conversations. That comes at a cost of making far less dialogue available to the average player. The conversations are generally superior but it's a steep price to pay.

I didn't find the Awakening conversations superior or deeper in any way. I do get your point though, that the potential is there.

What Gaider just wrote about being able to start conversations in the companions' "Home Base" sounds reasonable enough.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

I still don't get the hate for the "environment based" chats. They made so much more sense than walking up to someone in camp and having them be like "Oh, I heard a cricket. That reminds of, did I ever tell you about my sad upbringing?"

[drahelvete]

magicwins wrote...

The KOTOR system of timed interjections was not so bad, actually. I enjoyed the seemingly utter randomness of my companions desires to communicate.

You mean, where you're in the middle of gangland, surrounded by hostile-looking thugs, when you're suddenly interrupted by "<Companion's name> seems to have something to say"?

"No, <companion's name>! This is not the time to speak about your horrible, horrible childhood! Could we please save this conversation for a time when someone isn't pointing a blaster at us?"

[Demx]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

I still don't get the hate for the "environment based" chats. They made so much more sense than walking up to someone in camp and having them be like "Oh, I heard a cricket. That reminds of, did I ever tell you about my sad upbringing?"

I think the problem had to deal with having to know what random object in the world to click on with which character in your group to trigger a scene. And that it was the only way to gain approval besides spamming the companion with gifts.

Modifié par Siradix, 05 janvier 2011 - 11:22 .

[Atakuma]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

I still don't get the hate for the "environment based" chats. They made so much more sense than walking up to someone in camp and having them be like "Oh, I heard a cricket. That reminds of, did I ever tell you about my sad upbringing?"

I don't think it's much better than "oh, look at that sign, let me tell you about my rash.

[Bryy_Miller]

Lilacs wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Snoteye wrote...
The first time you enter Redcliffe, Alistair initiates dialogue (or does he just ask you to?). Are interactions like those gone, too, or is it only the personal stuff that has been restricted to private quarters?

It means that you're not going to be able to stop in the middle of a dungeon and ask Varric to tell you about dwarves. He can still start a conversation wherever he likes, when it's appropriate.

Really awesome.

Gopd. This was horrible in Origins. It was even worse in KOTOR (when critical dialogue wasn't even an option).

[Snoteye]

Zjarcal wrote...

I didn't find the Awakening conversations superior or deeper in any way. I do get your point though, that the potential is there.

They were more natural, that made them superior in my eyes. That is not to say that the conversations themselves were literary masterstrokes. None of them really stood out to me, neither positively nor negatively.

[Edit]
But I remember some of the clickables, like Velanna's tree.

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

I still don't get the hate for the "environment based" chats. They made so much more sense than walking up to someone in camp and having them be like "Oh, I heard a cricket. That reminds of, did I ever tell you about my sad upbringing?"

The primary objection is content limitations. Speaking as one who does not often replay (and has not replayed DA:O or Awakening), Awakening's system greatly reduces the number of accessible dialogues, as you will have to revisit each area (which may not be possible) with every companion.

Modifié par Snoteye, 05 janvier 2011 - 11:28 .

[David Gaider]

Siradix wrote...
I think the problem had to deal with having to know what random object in the world to click on with which character in your group to trigger a scene. And that it was the only way to gain approval besides spamming the companion with gifts.

That's essentially it. In retrospect, were we to do it again I think we'd probably have "conversation points" where you could engage a follower in dialogue-- but not simply that specific placeable only for one specific follower. Behavior-wise it encourages players to revisit old areas and hunt for dialogues they may have missed, which was not the intent.

The other element, of course, was simply that Awakening had a lot less dialogue overall-- which some people confuse for the system itself. They're not the same things. If Awakening had a larger word budget it probably wouldn't have been quite such a problem, but then we'd likely have implemented it differently as well. Any system we create needs to exist in the context of the project we're working on.

Insofar as the DA2 system goes, the other difference from DAO to keep in mind is you still won't get the "laundry list of questions". You can engage the follower in dialogue at their home base if they have something to say. Generally you will be notified when this is possible (via the journal system), so there's less need to keep visiting every follower's base to check and re-check if they have a conversation waiting. If you click on them at other times (or outside of their base) they will have contextual comments based on where you are or what you're doing, but there won't be a full cinematic conversation.

[Addai]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

I still don't get the hate for the "environment based" chats. They made so much more sense than walking up to someone in camp and having them be like "Oh, I heard a cricket. That reminds of, did I ever tell you about my sad upbringing?"

You never just strike up a conversation with someone because you want to get to know them better?

The new system sounds like it will prevent the accidental click syndrome which would set Alistair to trying to give you his rose in the middle of a gore-soaked battlefield, but it still sounds like it takes control for pacing out of the player's hands.  One thing I didn't like about Awakening is that it felt like my PC could never talk to anyone.  The NPCs talked to each other a lot, and occasionally they had something to say to the commander, but as player I could never initiate anything with them.

[Dave of Canada]

David Gaider wrote...

Insofar as the DA2 system goes, the other difference from DAO to keep in mind is you still won't get the "laundry list of questions". You can engage the follower in dialogue at their home base if they have something to say. Generally you will be notified when this is possible (via the journal system)

I don't want to invoke the hate storm but I have to ask, in other words it'll be like Mass Effect 2 and Kelly informing you that somebody wants to talk with you?

[Felfenix]

David Gaider wrote...

Siradix wrote...
I think the problem had to deal with having to know what random object in the world to click on with which character in your group to trigger a scene. And that it was the only way to gain approval besides spamming the companion with gifts.

That's essentially it. In retrospect, were we to do it again I think we'd probably have "conversation points" where you could engage a follower in dialogue-- but not simply that specific placeable only for one specific follower. Behavior-wise it encourages players to revisit old areas and hunt for dialogues they may have missed, which was not the intent.

The other element, of course, was simply that Awakening had a lot less dialogue overall-- which some people confuse for the system itself. They're not the same things. If Awakening had a larger word budget it probably wouldn't have been quite such a problem, but then we'd likely have implemented it differently as well. Any system we create needs to exist in the context of the project we're working on.

Insofar as the DA2 system goes, the other difference from DAO to keep in mind is you still won't get the "laundry list of questions". You can engage the follower in dialogue at their home base if they have something to say. Generally you will be notified when this is possible (via the journal system), so there's less need to keep visiting every follower's base to check and re-check if they have a conversation waiting. If you click on them at other times (or outside of their base) they will have contextual comments based on where you are or what you're doing, but there won't be a full cinematic conversation.

The notification will be nice. I hated "Could it wait for a bit? I have some calibrations..."

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Insofar
as the DA2 system goes, the other difference from DAO to keep in mind
is you still won't get the "laundry list of questions". You can engage
the follower in dialogue at their home base if they have something to say. Generally you will be notified when this is possible (via the journal system)

I
don't want to invoke the hate storm but I have to ask, in other words
it'll be like Mass Effect 2 and Kelly informing you that somebody wants
to talk with you?

The way I see it, it sounds like we'll be told whenever there is new dialog. In ME2, we were only told when somebody wanted to give us a loyalty mission.

Modifié par Felfenix, 05 janvier 2011 - 11:51 .

[nightcobra]

how about other non-combat areas like towns or settlements?



will companions be on this "contextual comments based on where you are or what you're doing" mode in such areas?

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
You can engage the follower in dialogue at their home base if they have something to say. Generally you will be notified when this is possible (via the journal system), so there's less need to keep visiting every follower's base to check and re-check if they have a conversation waiting. If you click on them at other times (or outside of their base) they will have contextual comments based on where you are or what you're doing, but there won't be a full cinematic conversation.

Calibrations ahoy!

I'll see how the DA2 system works out and understand the desire to cut back on laundry lists and talking heads given the emphasis on cinematics,  but part of the reason I think Origins was BioWare's best dialogue system to date was that it was consistent and intuituve. You want to talk to someone? Click on them and it zooms down to the dialogue level view. And it did that for practically every named character.

One of the things I hated in Awakening outside of the whole scavenger hunt aspect to dialogue was that even when everyone was in Vigil's Keep, it wasn't always consistent. Clicking on a vendor took you straight to the inventory. There would be times Anders or Velanna would have an arrow over their head and they would give their annoyed bark and then sometimes you'd click on them and they'd start chatting. Probably a bug, but annoying nevertheless. And half the time the barks would be nonsensical- when you're safe in Vigil's Keep are you really worried about killing darkspawn?

I just liked the simple "click on companions, something awesome happens" dialogue of Origins.

Modifié par Brockololly, 05 janvier 2011 - 11:54 .

[David Gaider]

Felfenix wrote...
The way I see it, it sounds like we'll be told whenever there is new dialog. In ME2, we were only told when somebody wanted to give us a loyalty mission.

Right. The notification, as I said, is in your journal-- so it pops up just like you've been given a new quest. It's not an in-game notification.

nightcobra8928 wrote...
how about other non-combat areas like towns or settlements?

will companions be on this "contextual comments based on where you are or what you're doing" mode in such areas?

Combat/non-combat has nothing to do with it. "They only engage in full cinematic conversations with you in their home base, or if they initiate the dialogue themselves" means just that.

Modifié par David Gaider, 05 janvier 2011 - 11:54 .

[magicwins]

Thank you writers, for responding so informatively

I hope this doesn't affect your marketing information-release schedule....

[stephen1493]

Will we have a notice pop up for when theirs a new conversation? I would never notice a random new quest in my journal.

[Chaia]

stephen1493 wrote...

Will we have a notice pop up for when theirs a new conversation? I would never notice a random new quest in my journal.

Probably, I think it will be like in DAO when something was added to your codex/journal, you got a little temporary pop-up notice at the side of the screen.

Modifié par Chaia, 06 janvier 2011 - 12:08 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote..
You never just strike up a conversation with someone because you want to get to know them better?

The new system sounds like it will prevent the accidental click syndrome which would set Alistair to trying to give you his rose in the middle of a gore-soaked battlefield, but it still sounds like it takes control for pacing out of the player's hands.  One thing I didn't like about Awakening is that it felt like my PC could never talk to anyone.  The NPCs talked to each other a lot, and occasionally they had something to say to the commander, but as player I could never initiate anything with them.

The problem with the DA:O system is that you can pretty much exhaust your companions dialogue in one go save for a few scripted events. I think the Awakening system has value in that people do sometimes talk about things around them. The problem with the system was simply that this is not all people do, and it didn't feel right because it took away that more personal aspect of conversation.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Addai67 wrote...

You never just strike up a conversation with someone because you want to get to know them better?

Totally!  However more often than not it will be something in the world that we talk about.  Either a thing or an action occuring there.

Siradix wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

I
still don't get the hate for the "environment based" chats. They made
so much more sense than walking up to someone in camp and having them be
like "Oh, I heard a cricket. That reminds of, did I ever tell you
about my sad upbringing?"

I think the problem had to deal
with having to know what random object in the world to click on with
which character in your group to trigger a scene. And that it was the
only way to gain approval besides spamming the companion with gifts.

That I can understand.  More landmarks then!

[The Gentle Ben]

David Gaider wrote...
Insofar as the DA2 system goes, the other difference from DAO to keep in mind is you still won't get the "laundry list of questions". You can engage the follower in dialogue at their home base if they have something to say. Generally you will be notified when this is possible (via the journal system), so there's less need to keep visiting every follower's base to check and re-check if they have a conversation waiting. If you click on them at other times (or outside of their base) they will have contextual comments based on where you are or what you're doing, but there won't be a full cinematic conversation.

Implementation will of course be the final determinant, but regardless of execution, I think this is an excellent idea and an approach well worth attempting (Not that Bioware needs (or should particularly care about) my blessing). Still, I am enthusiastic about this. I believe such a system is an admirable solution for what I viewed as problems in both Origins and the MEs conversational mechanics.

I will add that I feel such an approach lends more importance to the situational applicability and implementation of the non-cinematic dialogue. One of the greater challenges, as I see it, is avoiding a single repeated line of dialogue or a cycling system of such lines (Such as in Awakenings) that can be clicked/inititated ad nauseum. I think I would prefer a switch to a no response option once unique responses have been exhausted, at least among current party members (but probably in general). (My inner computer scientist just punched my inner writer)

The notification system would also appear to be a potential challenge. Effectively conveying the possibility of new conversations (particularly when more than one is currently available) via a means that is not overly intrusive/demanding/repetitive would seem to be one of the greater difficulties of the approach. The journal seems to have possibilities but I wonder if there's a superior (or at least complementary) one? (Perhaps I'm negatively influenced by the Origins journal interface, things were occasionally difficult to find in there) I suppose you could always have a butler (Kelly) or a writing desk (private terminal), but I still think the informative side of the process is one of the conceivable pitfalls. I also wonder if the "house per character" might have more detriments than value. I can definitely see the attraction on an individual basis but I wonder if it won't ultimately result in the "making the rounds" leading to a more trying experience.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 06 janvier 2011 - 01:10 .

[HolyAvenger]

Seems like a reasonable system. Willing to wait and give it a whirl when the game comes out.

[wulfsturm]

Interesting... so your companions are going to have their own places were they will stay when they're not in your group as apposed to every companion being in a singular location?

I did not know that.

Modifié par wulfsturm, 06 janvier 2011 - 12:23 .