272 réponses à ce sujet

[Terror_K]

DominusVita wrote...

Oh please, not Massville. That would be...just no.

"Oh no! A Grizzly Varren wandered into your colony!" :-(

Couldn't help whipping this up after that comment:-

[Fiery Phoenix]

LOL

[sinosleep]

Terror_K wrote...

Couldn't help whipping this up after that comment:-

LOL. I support punching pyjaks.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 janvier 2011 - 05:41 .

[Ulzeraj]

arafinwe_ingalaure wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

I'm divided on this, if it were true. On one hand if the gameplay side of things is mostly done, then it means there's almost a whole year to really polish it and give us a lot of choices and consequences and some real depth narrative/story/character wise. On the other hand, it means that it's more likely that the gameplay isn't terribly deep and we're pretty much gonna get ME2.5. Though it could be possibly that merely the basic combat gameplay over the main story is done because it's basically like ME2 and they're planning on adding more RPG features from here on in.

This is what I've been predicting all along based on what their mission statement was for ME 2 and what they've replied with in interviews with regards to what they want to add for ME 3. They got the core combat mechanics down in ME 2, now they're just going to RPG it up a bit.

I hope so, the missing RPG element of Mass Effect 2 were annoying.  If it was only me, I would say that Mass Effect 2 could not qualify as an RPG because it's like an action-adventure game.  And taking decision can be found in other games that are specifically not RPGs.  If we are thinking like that, then God Of War 3 is an RPG because you can upgrade your weapons and make some decisions.

Roleplay is roleplay and not some dumb inventory. An inventory is not what defines what a RPG is. As far as I can tell... I could make decisions and guide my character the way I wanted.

The weapon system was ok. No... wait it was _better_ than having 5000000000000000000 weapons with simillar names and stats that will end up turning omnigel soup. ME2 equip system was KISS (Keep it Simple, Stupid) and allowed me to focus on visceral combat and big decisions better.

Anyway I agree with you about the rest. I think that for a game so focused on character stories and background there could be more dialogues (the dialogues were cool but... could have been more).

[Dominus]

Oh dear... Best thing I've seen all day.

DominusVita likes this.

Modifié par DominusVita, 06 janvier 2011 - 05:46 .

[adam_grif]

Roleplay is roleplay and not some dumb inventory. An inventory is not what defines what a RPG is.

Roleplay is roleplay, but by that definition every videogame is an RPG. The videogame genre "RPG" are not characterized by being able to influence the story or "playing a role" or what have you, it's defined by taking mechanics from Pen & Paper RPGs such as Dunegeons and Dragons or Vampire: The Masquerade or what have you.

This is why games such as the Final Fanasy series, which have zero aesthetic character customization and zero influence on the story are still considered one of the most important RPG series . For you to define it in terms of "roleplay" is to reject that the super majority of what people consider to be an RPG from being RPGs.

Now, don't say something like "well that's just your opinion!" Definitions are formed by common usage, not by any one persons feelings in particular. The one I have given is the one given to me by my lecturer for a unit I took last year called "Games Fundamentals", it's also the one that is found On wikipedia.

If you want to have your own personal definition that's fine, but please don't go around evangelising it.

Modifié par adam_grif, 06 janvier 2011 - 05:57 .

[sinosleep]

The first five words from that very definition are key

form a loosely defined genre

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:04 .

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

"As for the dropping jaws thing? EA sends around internal, confidential
demo reels every so often, so that we all know what each arm of the
company is up to, and it lets the devs strut their stuff to each other.
Last one I saw was late Dec and it looked damn good."

Bull.  EA isn't going to send "internal, confidential demo reels" on all their properties to everyone.  They know that the chances of something remaining internal/confidential are between slim and none, and slim left town. 

This person is making it up.

[Ulzeraj]

adam_grif wrote...

Roleplay is roleplay and not some dumb inventory. An inventory is not what defines what a RPG is.

Roleplay is roleplay, but by that definition every videogame is an RPG. The videogame genre "RPG" are not characterized by being able to influence the story or "playing a role" or what have you, it's defined by taking mechanics from Pen & Paper RPGs such as Dunegeons and Dragons or Vampire: The Masquerade or what have you.

This is why games such as the Final Fanasy series, which have zero aesthetic character customization and zero influence on the story are still considered one of the most important RPG series . For you to define it in terms of "roleplay" is to reject that the super majority of what people consider to be an RPG from being RPGs.

Now, don't say something like "well that's just your opinion!" Definitions are formed by common usage, not by any one persons feelings in particular. The one I have given is the one given to me by my lecturer for a unit I took last year called "Games Fundamentals", it's also the one that is found On wikipedia.

If you want to have your own personal definition that's fine, but please don't go around evangelising it.

Dude thats a biased wikipedia article not some RFC about RPGs.

For example DnD is the most famous RPG that exists. It places enphasis on loot (and a bit on inventory but thats not the focus) and itemization. The Storytelling system however (included games such as Vampire: The Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse and Mage: The Ascencion) put even less enphasis on itemization than Mass Effect 2. You cant discaracterize White Wolf games as RPG just because them place more enphasis on roleplaying and skill tests than your average wikipedia article.

Being said Roleplaying _is_ Roleplaying. You cant put rules about how it should be and AFAIK there is no official entity that regulates what kind of game should be called RPG.

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:12 .

[Terror_K]

It doesn't really matter what said elements are classed as that were removed and/or oversimplified from ME1 to ME2, the fact that they were and that they are missed is what's important. But that's nothing to do with this topic really, beyond the simple questions upon many a fan's lips as to whether they're coming back, in what form and how strong?

[Fiery Phoenix]

I wonder when we're getting the first gameplay / in-game footage. I wanna say March, or sometime prior to E3 (where they go all out on ME3). I'm honestly not a fan of CG trailers; in-game stuff is where it's at for me.

[Terror_K]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I wonder when we're getting the first gameplay / in-game footage. I wanna say March, or sometime prior to E3 (where they go all out on ME3). I'm honestly not a fan of CG trailers; in-game stuff is where it's at for me.

My guess is GDC, or perhaps shortly after ME2PS3. I'd doubt it'd be much later than March given it's about 10-11 months away.

[Ulzeraj]

Terror_K wrote...

It doesn't really matter what said elements are classed as that were removed and/or oversimplified from ME1 to ME2, the fact that they were and that they are missed is what's important. But that's nothing to do with this topic really, beyond the simple questions upon many a fan's lips as to whether they're coming back, in what form and how strong?

I've missed the damn toggle helmet as much as the same average me-player but ME1 inventory wasnt that fantastic to be missed. Really... there wasnt much choice between Katana VI and Katana VII.

Many mechanics like accuracy and wpn heat got excluded or replaced for the sake of simplicity and I was happy about that. Those damn ammo enhancements were replaced by ammo powers and that made me happy too.

If you want to complain about how the story was more rich on ME1 go ahead I'm with you but those mechanics were a no-no.

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:28 .

[Dominus]

From looking at IGN's list of events from CES, nothing happened ME-related. It's a fair guess that we'll at least see something gameplay-related before E3, just don't quote me on that

[Fiery Phoenix]

DominusVita wrote...

From looking at IGN's list of events from CES, nothing happened ME-related. It's a fair guess that we'll at least see something gameplay-related before E3, just don't quote me on that

I'm actually fairly certain we will see something in-game before E3, whether it be a short trailer or screenshots. I remember the same thing happened with ME2 back in the day; they released a few in-game screenshots (along with a bunch of artwork) and some gameplay details before E3.

[Uszi]

Terror_K wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I wonder when we're getting the first gameplay / in-game footage. I wanna say March, or sometime prior to E3 (where they go all out on ME3). I'm honestly not a fan of CG trailers; in-game stuff is where it's at for me.

My guess is GDC, or perhaps shortly after ME2PS3. I'd doubt it'd be much later than March given it's about 10-11 months away.

My guess is they'll tease the new DLC at GDC.
Maybe one or two bones about ME3, but they have this DLC that they haven't told us about yet too.

[adam_grif]

Being said Roleplaying _is_ Roleplaying. You cant put rules about how it should be and AFAIK there is no official entity that regulates what kind of game should be called RPG.

*Laughs*



Man, go look up:



- Final Fantasy (series)

- Diablo (series)

- Ultima (series)

- Dragon Quest (series)



And tell me what genre these games are all in. Notice how you can't roll play in them? How it's a linear plot, with no player choice at all? But by all means, reject most of the games considered RPGs in the history of videogaming as being RPGs, and continue to commit the Etymological fallacy that you are, where because "Roleplaying" is the R in RPG, therefore the videogame genre RPGs must be all about roleplaying.



And by all means, keep saying stuff about how ME2 was more of an RPG than some other game, as though I had ever questioned that ME2 was an RPG (protip: I didn't).

[Terror_K]

Ulzeraj wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

It doesn't really matter what said elements are classed as that were removed and/or oversimplified from ME1 to ME2, the fact that they were and that they are missed is what's important. But that's nothing to do with this topic really, beyond the simple questions upon many a fan's lips as to whether they're coming back, in what form and how strong?

I've missed the damn toggle helmet as much as the same average me-player but ME1 inventory wasnt that fantastic to be missed. Really... there wasnt much choice between Katana VI and Katana VII.

Many mechanics like accuracy and wpn heat got excluded or replaced for the sake of simplicity and I was happy about that. Those damn ammo enhancements were replaced by ammo powers and that made me happy too.

If you want to complain about how the story was more rich on ME1 go ahead I'm with you but those mechanics were a no-no.

Many feel they simply went too far with their simplification and gimping of the RPG elements in ME2 though. ME1 was admittedly not ideal, but it at least brought a degree of customisation, variation and choice. ME2 pretty much completely eliminated this for simplicity, linearity and systems that were so on-the-rails that the player barely even had to do anything and the game almost played itself outside of combat. That's all fine and dandy for those who just want to concentrate on killing things and moving the story along, but some RPG players like to get their hands dirty and fiddle around with their stuff, and ME2 almost completely eliminated that.

Just like there's such a thing as overcomplicating things, there's such a thing as oversimplifying things too, and that's what ME2 did.

Also, ammo mods becoming ammo powers was a joke, made no real practical sense and is probably the main cause of weapon-modding going. Sure, people complained about the inventory, but I never quite got how weapon-modding went the way of the dodo, because I don't ever recall that being complained about in the first place.

[adam_grif]

I'd love them to bring back weapon customization now that we have fewer actual weapons. Instead of the I-X series mods (which sucked), they can just have one, distinctive version of each mod. I think that would be nice.

But tbh I don't think it will happen; they are already too heavily invested in ME2's gameplay and it got praised very highly by critics.

[Ulzeraj]

adam_grif wrote...

Being said Roleplaying _is_ Roleplaying. You cant put rules about how it should be and AFAIK there is no official entity that regulates what kind of game should be called RPG.

*Laughs*

Man, go look up:

- Final Fantasy (series)
- Diablo (series)
- Ultima (series)
- Dragon Quest (series)

And tell me what genre these games are all in. Notice how you can't roll play in them? How it's a linear plot, with no player choice at all? But by all means, reject most of the games considered RPGs in the history of videogaming as being RPGs, and continue to commit the Etymological fallacy that you are, where because "Roleplaying" is the R in RPG, therefore the videogame genre RPGs must be all about roleplaying.

And by all means, keep saying stuff about how ME2 was more of an RPG than some other game, as though I had ever questioned that ME2 was an RPG (protip: I didn't).

(sigh)

Talk more about labels imposed by computer game industry to someone who played real pen-and-paper rpgs since the 90s. You can label games like Diablo as RPG as you want but that doesnt change the fact that it has nothing to do with roleplaying. And yes, the term _wasn't_ created by computer game industry as you can see. So how about giving up on trying to label and impose rules on something that is arbitrary at best (like inventories being obligatory)?

Now get off my lawn.

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:47 .

[Terror_K]

adam_grif wrote...

I'd love them to bring back weapon customization now that we have fewer actual weapons. Instead of the I-X series mods (which sucked), they can just have one, distinctive version of each mod. I think that would be nice.

But tbh I don't think it will happen; they are already too heavily invested in ME2's gameplay and it got praised very highly by critics.

I'm hoping weapon-modding returns in some form at least. I definitely agree that we don't need ten levels of each mod, and that we don't really even need to find individual ones as it could be replicated like the other items in ME2 were. It's definitely one of the most missed factors, and most who are generally pretty happy with ME2 overall and the changes made will still admit that they wish it was present and that they miss it. I personally don't get why it went... The Mako, the elevators and even the inventory I can understand to a degree, but weapon modding is a complete mystery to me.

As to the odds of it coming back, I actually think there's a fairly good chance. BioWare have at least claimed that they want to bring back some RPG factors and deepen them a little, and I suspect modding being one of the most missed and probably one of the easiest ones to bring back without interfering with the core gameplay too much that if only one thing ends up making a comeback that it'd be this.

[adam_grif]

1. We are not discussing what a Pen & Paper RPG is, we're discussing what an RPG Videogame is. Acting like I've been arguing for a redefining of what a P&P RPG is based on what cRPGs are means you weren't paying attention at best, or are actively being dishonest at worst.
2. What terms mean has nothing to do with their etymology, and everything to do with how people use them currently. Diablo, FF, DQ, Ultima etc absolutely are cRPGs, because that's what just short of everybody considers them to be.
3. I never gorram said anything about inventories, or demanding that they be included for something to qualify as an RPG.
4. Get off my lawn, you senile old man. This is my house!

As to the odds of it coming back, I actually think there's a fairly good
chance. BioWare have at least claimed that they want to bring back some
RPG factors and deepen them a little, and I suspect modding being one
of the most missed and probably one of the easiest ones to bring back
without interfering with the core gameplay too much that if only one
thing ends up making a comeback that it'd be this.

I disagree, because I get the impression that they want us to be able to import characters from 2 to 3 and keep their stats. I believe this was one of the stated reasons for the level 30 cap. If they removed Ammo powers then the Soldier and all Soldier-hybrid classes would need to be totally rebalanced, as well as rebalancing the squadmates from ME2 now that they are nolonger powers. It's a bigger change than you might think.

Modifié par adam_grif, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:58 .

[Bogsnot1]

Ulzeraj wrote...
Talk more about labels imposed by computer game industry to someone who played real pen-and-paper rpgs since the 90s.
Now get off my lawn.

You whippersnapper. Ive been playing RPGs since the 70's. Now get off my lawn before I slowly and weakly beat you to death with my walking frame.

[Ulzeraj]

Terror_K wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

I'd love them to bring back weapon customization now that we have fewer actual weapons. Instead of the I-X series mods (which sucked), they can just have one, distinctive version of each mod. I think that would be nice.

But tbh I don't think it will happen; they are already too heavily invested in ME2's gameplay and it got praised very highly by critics.

I'm hoping weapon-modding returns in some form at least. I definitely agree that we don't need ten levels of each mod, and that we don't really even need to find individual ones as it could be replicated like the other items in ME2 were. It's definitely one of the most missed factors, and most who are generally pretty happy with ME2 overall and the changes made will still admit that they wish it was present and that they miss it. I personally don't get why it went... The Mako, the elevators and even the inventory I can understand to a degree, but weapon modding is a complete mystery to me.

As to the odds of it coming back, I actually think there's a fairly good chance. BioWare have at least claimed that they want to bring back some RPG factors and deepen them a little, and I suspect modding being one of the most missed and probably one of the easiest ones to bring back without interfering with the core gameplay too much that if only one thing ends up making a comeback that it'd be this.

You had disrupting ammo powers replacing the +% dmg against shield/synths and incendiary ammo replacing +% dmg against bio targets (plus damage over time). Even with aura-like squad ammo you could use only one of them at once so is quite the same thing.

Elevators were cool, the Mako was controversial but I would joy ride across Nodacruz anytime to avoid planetary scanning.

Then there is the armor factor: only sheppard had customizable armor. I would like to customize my team members ammo but on the other side I liked the fact that they had their cool outfits and not just 3 random humans in space armor. It adds some collor depth. Really. You can argue that Jack using a mask on a planet with hazardrous acid athmosphere sounds lame but I can cite tons of common well known science rules that Mass Effect brakes. You can attribute that to mass effect fields or something.

adam_grif wrote...

1. We are not discussing what a Pen
& Paper RPG is, we're discussing what an RPG Videogame is. Acting
like I've been arguing for a redefining of what a P&P RPG is based
on what cRPGs are means you weren't paying attention at best, or are
actively being dishonest at worst.
2. What terms mean has nothing to
do with their etymology, and everything to do with how people use them
currently. Diablo, FF, DQ, Ultima etc absolutely are cRPGs, because
that's what just short of everybody considers them to be.
3. I never gorram said anything about inventories, or demanding that they be included for something to qualify as an RPG.
4. Get off my lawn, you senile old man. This is my house!

Just saying that its arbitrary. Thats what I'm talking. I dont think that Mass Effect should be less or more RPG just because it doesnt add commom computer rpg elements. Labeling Diablo as an RPG was an arbitrary decision on Blizzard Entertainment. Warcraft 3 has a lot of RPG elements (it had damn inventories) but it was labeled as a strategy game.

I've used to play World of Warcraft as a high end pve player. Recently spent 10 months of my life logging at the same wee hours to beat the same bosses every damn week including the big bad hardest boss of the game at the time (LK Heroic mode on 25 man). It was all about numbers... we had spreadsheets and simulation programs to maximize our characters in 0.0001% in various stats that included spell power, haste, mana regen, critical and so on. We uploaded combat logs on certain websites just to plot graphics and watch everyone's performance. We had tons of customizations that didnt restricted just in itemization: gemming each piece of equipment, enchanting stuff with the right stats, maximizing profession bonuses and advantages, spell rotations (even as a healer I had to worry about that) and the list goes on. Few days before the Cataclysm expansion I just couldnt play that anymore. It was bleak... the "R" in MMORPG wasnt there.

Playing ME2 it was like heaven and showed how the power of simplicity sometimes just can be enough to be fun. You see... you (role)play as Shepard. You chose his gender, class and appearance and also chose his powers. You experience the game as Shepard and make decisions as if you were him. Has the game failed any of you on this? If no, then its a roleplaying game and if you had fun it was a good roleplaying game.

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Ulzeraj wrote...
Talk more about labels imposed by computer game industry to someone who played real pen-and-paper rpgs since the 90s.
Now get off my lawn.

You
whippersnapper. Ive been playing RPGs since the 70's. Now get off my
lawn before I slowly and weakly beat you to death with my walking frame.
[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

I'm getting out of here before you bring that 1st edition lvl 50 Wizard!

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 06 janvier 2011 - 07:21 .

[Dominus]

As Gygax once put it(paraphrasing), People have been playing role-playing games for as long as kids have been playing Cops & Robbers or Cowboys & Indians. Now get off my... eh nevermind.