352 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Meh. You can still keep her alive even disloyal so I don't get the big deal with loyalt. Don't you only need 4 loyal squaddies to get everyone alive through the SM?

[didymos1120]

Ryzaki wrote...

Meh. You can still keep her alive even disloyal so I don't get the big deal with loyalt. Don't you only need 4 loyal squaddies to get everyone alive through the SM?

I don't think people were really arguing on the basis of gameplay considerations.  I mean, it's been mentioned, but that's not what 90+% of the thread has been about.

[Rip504]

Pacifien wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The bad guys are all dead. You can't do anything more to them.

I'll quote Dean_the_Young who I felt managed to put this into words better than I could:

"It can, however, directly effect the quality of life of the people he harmed. Rael is dead: he won't mind a verbal flogging. Hundreds of widows, orphans, parents, and friends of the lost can be given the respect they deserve to know the truth about why their loved one died, and vindicated in knowing that rank, privaleges, and family connections wouldn't see the one responsible excape any sort of accountability on the part of those left behind.

Rael is dead. The people whom his disaster harmed, are not. Justice and accountability aren't only for the sake of the person responsible, but for the rest of society as well."

Hundreds? That may be a little exaggerated. I would be surprised if the number of dead Quarians was even close to a hundred.

I disagree.(of course) This would apply if the entire crew had no part,but they are also guilty of war crimes. So now rather then having dead relatives killed by the Geth. You have a dead war criminal and have brought shame to your clan.  What closure is there to know Rael was one of the main men in charge. They all were clearly a part of it.

You cast all the blame on him. Thats unfair and untrue. For these families has the Truth brought Peace or just brought more questions,pain,suffering,and shame?(Now knowing there "loved ones" are war criminals involved in testing weapons on Geth.)

Now you have to deal with the fact your dead one is a war criminal who has brought shame to your clan and ship. Instead of dealing with the simple truth some active Geth killed them. (As the Geth have killed many Quarians before it is easier to swallow.)  You act as if knowing the truth will make everything alright. Ever heard the saying the truth hurts?

Modifié par Rip504, 07 janvier 2011 - 04:32 .

[Dionkey]

GodWood wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

GodWood wrote...
How is you making a decision and than suffering for it later negative to your roleplaying.
I'd think that's a postive.

How does Loyalty have any effect on whether they can fire their gun? Are they going to get you purposly killed because you didnt do what they wanted? That just sounds like an idiot squad member.

They are 'distracted' and not fully focused on the mission.
Regardless of how silly it is it does not prevent you from being able to roleplay unless your idea of roleplaying is having everything work out.

No, but I dont have the chance to convince them by other means. I still like Tali, I dont want her to die, but I do not agree with concealing the information on what happened with the geth on the Alorei. Xen got her hands on it and now will use it for terrible purposes.

[In Exile]

The irony of all this is that with Legion, Shepard has the opportunity to commit war crimes of his own on the Geth. If what Tali's father did to the a few geth is a war crime because they are sentient, then Shepard either killing  or forcibly brainwashing around - what, 3-4% of the total geth population? - is criminal of the highest order.

[Dionkey]

In Exile wrote...

The irony of all this is that with Legion, Shepard has the opportunity to commit war crimes of his own on the Geth. If what Tali's father did to the a few geth is a war crime because they are sentient, then Shepard either killing  or forcibly brainwashing around - what, 3-4% of the total geth population? - is criminal of the highest order.

Rewriting isn't brainwashing in a sense. They were being manipulated by the reapers in the first place, all Shepard did was allow them to see the other point of view. They didn't have a choice while the reapers were brainwashing them but at least Shepard made it so they aren't murdering people.

[Nightwriter]

Ryzaki wrote...

Meh. You can still keep her alive even disloyal so I don't get the big deal with loyalt. Don't you only need 4 loyal squaddies to get everyone alive through the SM?

It's not really about her loyalty. She's your friend and she begs you and you can't help but care.

And wow, is Liz Sroka's voice acting great when she does that. Just wow.

[In Exile]

Dionkey wrote...
Rewriting isn't brainwashing in a sense. They were being manipulated by the reapers in the first place, all Shepard did was allow them to see the other point of view. They didn't have a choice while the reapers were brainwashing them but at least Shepard made it so they aren't murdering people.

They weren't manipulated. They made a choice. Legion is clear about this. A paragon Shepard can call him out on this. If geth are software, and if altering their software or hardware is a war crime, then what Shepard did is a war crime.

As for the morality of the situation... giving the completed data to the fleet, that might spur the war party of the Admirality to push for more research, is not arguably the moral choice either.

Once you have this evidence in your hand, the moral dillema is greater than just what Ra'el did. It's about what the consequences of your actions are. And if you want to make an argument that the consequences don't matter, then you need to make that claim and defend it.

[didymos1120]

In Exile wrote...

The irony of all this is that with Legion, Shepard has the opportunity to commit war crimes of his own on the Geth. If what Tali's father did to the a few geth is a war crime because they are sentient, then Shepard either killing  or forcibly brainwashing around - what, 3-4% of the total geth population? - is criminal of the highest order.

Considering those geth are actively at war with you, working for the Reapers, and attempting to rewrite all the non-Heretics...no.  Though the rewriting I'll grant as debateable while also noting that I have no desire to actually debate that.

[Sidac]

Arnt you technically just blowing up the space station? not all of the heretics are on the station.

[In Exile]

didymos1120 wrote...
Considering those geth are actively at war with you, working for the Reapers, and attempting to rewrite all the non-Heretics...no.  Though the rewriting I'll grant as debateable while also noting that I have no desire to actually debate that.

If we're going to use that logic, then the geth exterminated most of the quarian population and exiled them from their world, and currently (as far as the quarians know) engaged in a military campaign against the galaxy just recently under the reapers.

If what Shepard does is justified by war, then the fact that the quarians researched this for their war, and we want to accuse them of war crimes...

I'm not seeing the logic.

Sidac wrote...

Arnt you technically just blowing up the
space station? not all of the heretics are on the station.

The majority of the population is.

From the wiki:

Heretic Station[/b], as Legion
refers to it, is home to a geth data core capable of broadcasting vast
distances through tightbeam projection. Approximately 6.6 million copies
of geth software are stored in the station, the majority of which are
kept bodiless in servers and downloaded to legged platforms when needed.
The station's "population" of legged platforms is approximately 2.4
million.

• Total Length: 20.5 Km
• Total Width: 11.3 Km
• Total Height: 11.3 Km
• Exterior Armor Thickness: 8 M
• Gross Weight: 1.55 Billion Metric Tons
• Population: 6.6 Million Copies; 2.4 Million Platforms (1
  million of which are in storage)

That gives us 6.6 million individual programs. Certainly sounds like a significant number of geth. You can use the platform if you want - 2.4 million is still an absurd number.

Modifié par In Exile, 07 janvier 2011 - 05:00 .

[Rip504]

Doesn't it say something about also sending a signal out to the remaining Heritics. In that case it would be more then 2.4 or 6.6...

[didymos1120]

In Exile wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Considering those geth are actively at war with you, working for the Reapers, and attempting to rewrite all the non-Heretics...no.  Though the rewriting I'll grant as debateable while also noting that I have no desire to actually debate that.

If we're going to use that logic, then the geth exterminated most of the quarian population and exiled them from their world, and currently (as far as the quarians know) engaged in a military campaign against the galaxy just recently under the reapers.

If what Shepard does is justified by war, then the fact that the quarians researched this for their war, and we want to accuse them of war crimes...

I'm not seeing the logic.

OK, I told you I'm not getting into the rewrite debate. Someone else can do that.  I'm talking destruction only. It's perfectly alllowable to raid and destroy an enemy base in a time of war.  And that's exactly what it is: they don't have civilians.  They just have Heretic geth, and every last one has chosen to side with the Reapers.  

And yes, the research was perfectly acceptable....until they networked them to sapience. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 07 janvier 2011 - 05:16 .

[Pacifien]

Rip504 wrote...
You act as if knowing the truth will make everything alright. Ever heard the saying the truth hurts?

There is no right or wrong in knowing the truth. It's simply the truth. It's like science. It just is. What you make of it is your own business.

I prefer having all the facts at my disposal even if it hurts because I'd rather live with eyes open than in ignorance. What's to be gained in knowing what really happened on the Alarei? The simple knowledge that it happened. The knowledge that even though there are sacred laws that predate the quarian flight from the homeworld, some have grown desperate enough to actively violate those laws to achieve their goals. Through ignorance and complacency, people have taken it upon themselves to conduct themselves in a manner in which I would have never approved had I known.

I do not like the idea that people need to be protected from themselves by the willful ommission of the facts.

And yes, people often point out that Tali is supposed to be Shepard's friend. In some of my playthroughs this does factor into the overall decision, and I judge Tali's friendship is greater than the problems of her people. Me personally? I am an awful friend. But my friends know this, so as long as we're on the same page, we manage.

[Xilizhra]

I do not like the idea that people need to be protected from themselves by the willful ommission of the facts.

Unfortunately, here they do.

I also invite you to consider the post I made in the last page, responding to your repost of Dean's stuff about the relatives.

[Sergeant Conley]

I really tried reading through the whole thread, because it's a hell of an interesting debate, but I could only last the first five pages before I just skipped here, read the whole page, and am now making my post.



The point of this thread is to ask others' opinions on whether covering up Rael's actions in compliance with Tali's wishes, even at the cost of her own exile, is right or wrong, correct? Well, ultimately, every single person who's played the game is gonna have their own reasons, justifications, beliefs, etc. on that question. Some did it based on morals and ethics, others just for Paragon points and ensuring Tali's loyalty to the mission.



I personally did it for the latter, as ultimately this is a fictional game and the consequences are just as fictional. In a real life situation under what the original poster considers similar circumstances (because he seems to have very exact standards on what's considered "similar"), I don't know how I'd react. Honestly I hope I never have to learn.



What I'm not quite wrapping my head around is: if this thread is supposed to just be for sharing your beliefs and such on the subject, why shoot down all of these beliefs, label them as wrong, and try to dissect and destroy that person's beliefs/views? Honestly it seems counter-productive.



I will give the OP props, though, for maintaining what looked to me like a spot-on Rorschach impression for, at the very least, five whole pages. Who knows, maybe he finally admitted to doing that intentionally as a trolling method in one of the five pages I didn't read.



Long and short of it: everyone's got their own views, why argue? Share and respect, that's what it's (hopefully) all about.

[didymos1120]

Sergeant Conley wrote...

What I'm not quite wrapping my head around is: if this thread is supposed to just be for sharing your beliefs and such on the subject, why shoot down all of these beliefs, label them as wrong, and try to dissect and destroy that person's beliefs/views? Honestly it seems counter-productive.

That's not what the thread is for.  The thread is here to provoke an ethical debate (which is why it opened with a question) and so it's doing just fine.

[Pacifien]

Xilizhra wrote...
Unfortunately, here they do.

I honestly don't believe that, but I imagine debating it would be like putting Admiral Gerrel and Admiral Koris in a room and asking them to make love to each other.

I also invite you to consider the post I made in the last page, responding to your repost of Dean's stuff about the relatives.

I also did read your post, but I had nothing to say to it that was of value to debate. How someone reacts to the truth is a personal matter. I don't doubt that there are people who would rather not think of their family in a negative light. I have to wonder if Tali would have preferred she had never known what her father truly did. Then again, for some people, knowing how low one can fall is inspiration for them to do better. Again, how someone reacts to knowing the truth is going to be up to each individual person.

[didymos1120]

Pacifien wrote...
I honestly don't believe that, but I imagine debating it would be like putting Admiral Gerrel and Admiral Koris in a room and asking them to make love to each other.

That would totally happen.  You know that whole deal is just sexual tension. Geth?  Whatever. Smokescreen.

[Rip504]

I agree. I never said my choice was right and the other is wrong. Personaly I don't care much for other ppl in general. But I would burn the Galaxy down for Tali and only Tali. Tali has my Shepards full suport in whatever her choices are. I didn't cover up for Tali's father or any one else. It was for Tali and only Tali. That's why I made the choice. I'm just stating there is more then one way to see this.



Assuming the Quarians want to know and it will make it better is a laugh. Sure they would like to know. Sure some wouldn't. But thats life some secrets are kept for the greater good.

What do they know without Shepards data? Rael wanted to take back homeworld,Tali admited to sending inactive Geth parts,Rael's ship was taken over by active Geth? They can see the truth.



Yes I would like to know all the facts also. And MY Shepard does,but we are not talking about us. We are talking about interfering in others life and politcs because we feel we have the right. I simply go to the Flotilla and complete my mission not theirs. Help Tali in her Trial.(As Asked to) As long as she is free,loyal,and not exiled. I'm good with the outcome. If they go to war or strive for peace it is their choice and I will back Tali in hers. .



Couldn't exposing them to the truth they were to weak to find and see for themselves also be consider help,and protection? Perhaps from their own ignorance? (The way of the closed fist? lol)



So if Alien races judge Shepard only on the event that he now works for an evil threat in Cerberus. They are correct? Cerberus has a past,even experimenting on living beings. The majority of the Galaxy consider Cerberus to be an evil threat, Shepard now represents Cerberus. All True. So judge Shepard for not arresting TIM after Overlord...



So now that we are clear. I do it for Tali ! Good Night and Peace out.

[V-rex]

I didn't expose him, largely because I didn't want to be a mean person to the crying girl.



But still, if you ask me what he did WAS wrong. He went behind the backs of his people during a time of political turmoil. He was essentially performing weapons research on unarmed prisoners in an attempt to essentially rob sentient beings of their free will. In other words trying to use the Geth Network to make them into slaves again. That is so much worse then outright killing them, free will is their right and by taking that from them (or trying to at least) he's performed an act worse than killing an individual. He's robbing an individual of individuality in the first place.



Then of course it fails, everyone involved dies horribly and a few people not involved die as well, leaving a trail of innocent dead in his wake. I absolutely think that he deserves punishment, sadly that would also mean the Migrant Fleet breaking up so I don't. But yes, I think the punishment is sufficient under those circumstances and had it not been her dad, I think Tali would agree.



One thing that worried me about all this though was the email I got afterwards from Admiral Xen. Telling me that she had found out what was going on and was planning to restart the experiments. In other words by having the crimes go unpunished, I run the risk of them starting all over again. Attempts at slavery and brainwashing and almost certain failure and once again, everything coming into the light. This could all happen again, making whatever choice I make with Tali redundant.



Nothing has been learned, and nothing changed. The experiments are going on again and if I tell anyone, the fleet breaks up. Talk about a lousy situation.

[only1sgop]

In this case, it was not Tali's fault. Tali's father and helpers were dead already. Every great hero/heroine has deep secrets that could undermined his or her reputation. So, I covered up the truth. Most of the New recruits on board the New Normandy Ship from ME2 have questionable pasts. Would you convict them too? (For example, a few U.S. presidents messed around with servants/slaves on the side, but we honor them in history. Even some had radical ideas that went against the majority of the public opinion in their time.) If this game is trying to portray somewhat of a "real" life with lots of gray area, then I say yes to cover up the truth. I don't want Tali's race to go to war with themselves when there is a bigger enemy to face. Earth/Citadel/our Galaxy is the last stronghold resistance against being wiped out. They are a really smart race that can come in handy to finish the fight. Anyways, that's the first thing that I thought of when I found out the truth with Tali's father. (Finish the Fight in 2011------I need to get a Signature Banner with that ) I really don't want any of my crew to die.

Modifié par only1sgop, 07 janvier 2011 - 06:46 .

[Konfined]

Tali is already responsible for having saved the galaxy almost single-handed once before. I need her at full efficiency; mind cleared, loyalty assured. So damn the Geth and their feelings, damn the Quarians and their war.

[snfonseka]

In Exile wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
Rewriting isn't brainwashing in a sense. They were being manipulated by the reapers in the first place, all Shepard did was allow them to see the other point of view. They didn't have a choice while the reapers were brainwashing them but at least Shepard made it so they aren't murdering people.

They weren't manipulated. They made a choice. Legion is clear about this. A paragon Shepard can call him out on this. If geth are software, and if altering their software or hardware is a war crime, then what Shepard did is a war crime.

As for the morality of the situation... giving the completed data to the fleet, that might spur the war party of the Admirality to push for more research, is not arguably the moral choice either.

Once you have this evidence in your hand, the moral dillema is greater than just what Ra'el did. It's about what the consequences of your actions are. And if you want to make an argument that the consequences don't matter, then you need to make that claim and defend it.

This is true, for those who desided to rewrite them (including me) cannot argue that it is not brainwashing. I am not saying that decision is wrong; I am just saying is that the justification is wrong. For me it was the logical thing to do, so I did it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rip504 wrote...

OO well it was a mistake on my part.

A rather glaring, massive, completely avoidable one that's been a cornerstone of your position. I might not be intelligent, but even I can play a game and hear what it says.

But legaly she was being tried for exile and her involvment. Whatever their true intention was,it is not legaly backed.

By Quarian law, it is.

And No obligation to Shepard to betray a friend/LI is required. Or considered right IMO.

Every soldier, and I would hope you would agree every human with a working moral compass and ethics, has both a moral and legal duty to not become complicit in war crimes and coverups, especially when said crimes got hundreds of innocent people killed.

The entire arguement was based on telling the truth.Now you ask me to betray a friend/LI,to a board that is standing their lying to me about their true intentions. Which make tis trial illegal and pointless.

No, I'm not asking you to betray a love interest or friend.

I'm asking you to realize that doing what's best for a friend is not necessarily what they want, and that complicity in criminality is not a fine and dandy way of demonstrating what a great person you are.

A trial with other motivations does not make it illegal if it addresses a relevant point, which it does (no one thought Rael had messed up, and Tali, while a political point, was the relevant suspect), and the fact that it is occuring and will have ramnifications makes it no less pointless.

Therefor Shepard takes the Paragon option and gets the hell out of dodge. Paragon is what? and this is considered Paragon by Bioware.

Paragon is also considered going directly against Zaeed's will, and losing his loyalty. Paragon is also both being against and ultimately choosing to brainwash the geth. Paragon is inconsistent, in in lieu of inconsistency Bioware has a nasty little habit of making it the 'ideal' option that doesn't go bad for no other reason than writer fiat.