352 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean, why can't you just reveal the information to Han'Garrel and Shala'Raan after the trial is over, after calling the admirals out? That way they know what happened, Tali's name's been cleared, the admirals' chicanery has been exposed, and everyone is happy and informed.

Except, it isn't. You give the data in private to those two, and the Admirals who have political and personal interests to not bring it to light sit on it and cover it up, and there is no public exposure realization on the part of the public that cares. The only other person who becomes happy is Rael himself, because he more or less gets to have his cake and eat it with not even ceremonial consequences.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

"It can, however, directly effect the quality of life of the people he harmed. Rael is dead: he won't mind a verbal flogging. Hundreds of widows, orphans, parents, and friends of the lost can be given the respect they deserve to know the truth about why their loved one died, and vindicated in knowing that rank, privaleges, and family connections wouldn't see the one responsible excape any sort of accountability on the part of those left behind.

Rael is dead. The people whom his disaster harmed, are not. Justice and accountability aren't only for the sake of the person responsible, but for the rest of society as well."

So... it'll help, somehow, that they'll be remembered as either unwitting dupes or willing pawns of a criminally stupid admiral, instead of well-remembered victims of a tragic accident?

Welcome to the world of grief and public accountability.

The loved ones already think that they know the truth. Having a new truth show up would break their personal closure, likely introduce more pain, and also do that pesky fleet-splitting thing, thus introducing yet more turmoil into their lives. If justice exists only for its own sake and does nothing to further anyone's quality of life, it cannot be a good thing.

I'm surprised, Xil. I'd never thought you'd be the one to argue that a convenient lie should be maintained because it's convenient. I wonder how many other situations you (wouldn't) apply that? Or at least, do it by personal subjective standards.

The fleet actually splitting is highly metagamy, especially as it showed far more fracture, deadlock, and antagonism amongst itself prior to the trial than in the immediate post-mission.

That might be the case, but I don't want the warmongers to get themselves killed either. I'd rather have everyone come through this in one piece.

Not always possible, Xil. Like in this case.

[Skirlasvoud]

To me, the action to rewrite or destroy, is not the point itself. The results to the individual Geth are the same. Samara said it the best: Wether you destroy the body or alter the mind, the individual that was, dies.
No, it's the motivation in which it is done, that matters. If you rewrite the Geth, Legion's true Geth get stronger, therefore its a sign of good faith. If you destroy Geth, you show that you don't trust Legion's true Geth with the extra recources. Legion is conflicted and actually okay with both decisions because his race has another definition of sentience, but your own motivations are the true reasoning behind the paragon/renegade outcome.


As for Tali's father, I also belief that this moral choice is purely a matter of Trust. What Rael has done may be terrible, but there's no way to make things right again. Rael, the Quarian crew, the Quarian marines and the Geth are dead already. Pointing fingers and assigning blame is just an afterthought and more harmful than good.

Practically speaking, there is no goal or even a greater justice served by exposing Rael. The end results of the crime remain the same. There's the truth of course, but the only way it ever holds any power and forms into justice is through knowledge and proper aplication. When no-one can know the truth and people assume an alternative scenario that they can live with, no injustice exists. The crime does, but its not knowable. Only when people suspect or find out about the truth and realize they've been lied too, do people suffer from a feeling of injustice. It seems very Machiavellian, but I'm not buying it that all truths HAVE to be known to create justice.
Reminds me of Ruck and his mother in Dragon Age. Ruck's mother asks you to find Ruck, but when you do, her son has turned into a babbling madman who asks not to be revealed. Another example: A murderer shoots a father's long lost son dead, but is sumarily shot dead by nearby police officers. Revealing these things to the father and mother may bring closure, but does not create justice. Truth may create justice, but be carefull when wielding the two as an unintangible pair. They can be two very seperate things indeed.

Not only that, but there are bigger things to be realized than the truth: The results

The cohesion of the Quarian fleet and its ability to deal with the Geth either through peace or war, is at stake. In one Renegade playthrough I exposed Tali's father and the Quarian Fleet actually broke apart in pro-war and pro-peace camps. There's no way there will be either of the two when the Quarian people schism like that, for the Geth will always have to mistrust the Quarian people like they do now and neither can they be defeated with a greatly diminished Quarian Fleet.

The only reason why you would want to publically expose a crime, is to prevent the reoccurence of the crime. One of my paragons actually did so in the hope the Quarians would realize their mistakes and better themselves. Truth simply became a tool of the social control of morals in this instance, not justice. It backfired however. Xen went on to salvage what was left of Rael's research, the quarian fleet split and without the social control of a unified fleet, these splinterfactions might actually have a lot more freedom to run Geth-enslavement experiments now than they ever did. Truth served neither Justice or the prevention of Crime. 

  


So why the Paragon/Renegade scores? Simple, it was a matter of trust. Tali is the one we're dealing with here, not the Quarian people or justice at large. Revealing the evidence must yield Renegade points because its about her. Although I do find Bioware's allocation of these points curious as ever. Both Paragon and Renegade speeches, even though the latter is more agressive, actually aquit her and come true for her. 

Modifié par Skirlasvoud, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:01 .

[Eddo36]

Remember that's all hindsight. If you didn't know what exact outcome will happen. But just a good guess.

[magnuskn]

Yes, it was the right thing. If only for keeping the Quarians as united as possible and steering them away from making war on the Geth.

[Xilizhra]

Paragon is also considered going directly against Zaeed's will, and losing his loyalty. Paragon is also both being against and ultimately choosing to brainwash the geth. Paragon is inconsistent, in in lieu of inconsistency Bioware has a nasty little habit of making it the 'ideal' option that doesn't go bad for no other reason than writer fiat.

In both cases, the Paragon option is aiming to keep as many lives intact as possible. Perfectly consistent.

Except, it isn't. You give the data in private to those two, and the Admirals who have political and personal interests to not bring it to light sit on it and cover it up, and there is no public exposure realization on the part of the public that cares. The only other person who becomes happy is Rael himself, because he more or less gets to have his cake and eat it with not even ceremonial consequences.

Rael's dead and can't influence anyone on the material plane anymore. If his ghost really would be happy about this, let him.

I'm surprised, Xil. I'd never thought you'd be the one to argue that a convenient lie should be maintained because it's convenient. I wonder how many other situations you (wouldn't) apply that? Or at least, do it by personal subjective standards.

Truth is the servant of welfare. If the truth would do more lasting damage than a lie, we may as well come up with the best lie possible.

Not always possible, Xil. Like in this case.

But here, I've succeeded. Tali isn't exiled, the fleet remains together, and the worst that's happened to the dead is that they stay dead.

[Dakim Dragco]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dakim Dragco wrote...

What happens here with tali is just like that. She is inocent of any crime, yet should her father be sentenced it will harm her name and honour too. She doesnt want her father disgraced because she loves him, its natural for her to ask this of shepard.

By reveiling the truth you not only do justice by condeming Rael, you also harm or convict Tali, who is inocent of any crime.

If you reveal the truth, Tali is immediately cleared of all charges and none of the guilt or blame falls upon her, not least because of Rael's recorded words explicitly stating that she had nothing to do with it.

Tali's honor is clean.

Not entirely, aldo cleared by law, those who knew her and Rael will always acociate her with Rael due to their blood relation.

Just look at real life situation where a family is looked at in a totaly difrent way, some times even with suspicion, if one of them (say a brother) is lets say a child molester. Aldo the rest of the family is inocent, the family name is soiled by the action of this one person. The same way a parents name gets forever linked to a crime involving their child as being the perpetrator in real life.

By not revealing the information, it is ruled as a accident, and thus the the family name of Tali is not as much soiled as it would be should Rael be anounced a traiter.

Also i forgot that not revealing without persuading the Adm.Board does indeed put sentence on Tali, so in that case if one cannot reason with the Adm.Board then revealing the information is the only way to clear tali's name.

This quest has several outcomes, each putting blame one one or more people, so nomather what you do the family name is soiled in a surten degree, howmuch depends on you choice.

-Reveal info = Rael's name is tainted
-Keep Info Secret = Tali's name is Tainted
-Convince Board = Both Tali and Rael share part blame.

The last option leaves the families name least impacted as the treason case is dismissed and neither Tali or Rael are convicted.

[Drowsy0106]

When asked, shep has the choice to let Tali respond. If it was her wish to come clean she would.

I read on the forum that regardless, Admiral Xen sends the negative message anyway.



More importantly and looking at ME3, did u paragon the Quarian council and individual members into encouraging a ceasefire with the Geth or did u renegade into supporting the war effort? Your human home world is gonna need all the help they can get...

[pprrff]

Its worth mentioning that the paragon solution leave many thinngs unresolved. Wouldnnt the quarrian want to know what actually happened? We get the feeling that Tali is exonerated due to her past history regardless of the fact of the case. So does that mean Tali gets blamed but is let off the hook for her past deeds? At least when you betray her the resolution is simple and obvious, same as if you let her be exiled.

[Dakim Dragco]

In Exile wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Considering
those geth are actively at war with you, working for the Reapers, and
attempting to rewrite all the non-Heretics...no.  Though the rewriting
I'll grant as debateable while also noting that I have no desire to
actually debate that.

If we're going to use that
logic, then the geth exterminated most of the quarian population and
exiled them from their world, and currently (as far as the quarians
know) engaged in a military campaign against the galaxy just recently
under the reapers.

If what Shepard does is justified by war, then the fact that the quarians researched this for their war, and we want to accuse them of war crimes...

I'm not seeing the logic.

This i believe is yet another moral choice, do you see Geth as a sentient lifeform equal to that of a human, or do you treat them like your CD player saying its just a machine.

In the later case, rewriting them would be no less immoral then reinstaling windows on your computer, heck its a machine right.

If they are Sentient by your definition then i believe rewriting to stand akin to forcing your beliefs on someone, a capitol offence by human rights in many countries here i might add. But killing 6,6 mil sentient beings would be considered genicide in my opinion so for those like me who feel the geth are sentient, nomather wheter they are or are not under reaper influance, neither choice is valid.

[In Exile]

didymos1120 wrote...
OK, I told you I'm not getting into the rewrite debate. Someone else can do that.  I'm talking destruction only. It's perfectly alllowable to raid and destroy an enemy base in a time of war.  And that's exactly what it is: they don't have civilians.  They just have Heretic geth, and every last one has chosen to side with the Reapers.  

And yes, the research was perfectly acceptable....until they networked them to sapience. 

Fine, then let's drop the re-write debate.

First, you're backtracking. You initially said they were mind-controlled to join the reapers. Now they chose to side with them? So did the geth that Tali collected; they are Heretics who chose to side with the reapers.

As for civilians, just what exactly is a geth civilian? If a country has a conscription rate of 100%, and all people over the age of (say) 15 are trained soliders, and no one under 15 lives in a particular city of 2.2 million, would you say it's justifiable to firebomb the place into oblivion?

That we are trying to say torture of a few individuals is some kind of inaliable wrong whereas the killing of millions isn't is absurd.

Pacifien wrote...
There is no right or wrong in knowing the
truth. It's simply the truth. It's like science. It just is. What you
make of it is your own business.

I prefer having all the facts at
my disposal even if it hurts because I'd rather live with eyes open
than in ignorance. What's to be gained in knowing what really happened
on the Alarei? The simple knowledge that it happened. The knowledge that
even though there are sacred laws that predate the quarian flight from
the homeworld, some have grown desperate enough to actively violate
those laws to achieve their goals. Through ignorance and complacency,
people have taken it upon themselves to conduct themselves in a manner
in which I would have never approved had I known.

I do not like
the idea that people need to be protected from themselves by the willful
ommission of the facts.

That's too short-sighted. The truth has consequences. If it sparks a war, or greater atrocities, you are absolutely responsible for revealing it. Information doesn't have moral value; but disclosing information does.

There is a moral dillema to revealing the information itself.

What Ra'el did was wrong. But what Shepard can do can also be wrong.

snfonseka wrote...
This is true, for those who desided to
rewrite them (including me) cannot argue that it is not brainwashing. I
am not saying that decision is wrong; I am just saying is that the
justification is wrong. For me it was the logical thing to do, so I did
it.

To sidetrack, for me, it is a matter of respect. The Heretics chose to fight the galaxy. They chose to side with the reapers. They are sapient beings and they have to deal with the consequences of their actions. They are about to commit a horrible atrocity on their own people. They need to be stopped. But going around and doing the same to them, to me, isn't the answer.

Skirlasvoud wrote...

To me, the action to rewrite or
destroy, is not the point itself. The results to the individual Geth are
the same. Samara said it the best: Wether you destroy the body or alter
the mind, the individual that was, dies.

I disagree. You're not destroying the mind. You're changing it to build a slave. It's nothing more than an obedience chip. This is absolutely a point of contention, and I don't buy the claim the two actions are analogous.

Dakim Dragco wrote...
Not entirely, aldo cleared by law, those
who knew her and Rael will always acociate her with Rael due to their
blood relation.

Just look at real life situation where a family
is looked at in a totaly difrent way, some times even with suspicion, if
one of them (say a brother) is lets say a child molester. Aldo the rest
of the family is inocent, the family name is soiled by the action of
this one person. The same way a parents name gets forever linked to a
crime involving their child as being the perpetrator in real life.

A better example is Bernie Madoff's kid, who killed himself because of what happened.

Dakim Dragco wrote...
This i believe is yet another moral
choice, do you see Geth as a sentient lifeform equal to that of a human,
or do you treat them like your CD player saying its just a machine.

In
the later case, rewriting them would be no less immoral then
reinstaling windows on your computer, heck its a machine right.

If
they are Sentient by your definition then i believe rewriting to stand
akin to forcing your beliefs on someone, a capitol offence by human
rights in many countries here i might add. But killing 6,6 mil sentient
beings would be considered genicide in my opinion so for those like me
who feel the geth are sentient, nomather wheter they are or are not
under reaper influance, neither choice is valid.

With the murder aspect - I think it's a choice where you either get your hands dirty as a war criminal, or allow the geth to forcibly brainwash an entire species. What you do isn't moral - but it's the best of the bad lot.

Anyway - if tinkering with the geth is messing around with your CD player, IMO, that can't make what Ra'el did a war crime.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dakim Dragco wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dakim Dragco wrote...

What happens here with tali is just like that. She is inocent of any crime, yet should her father be sentenced it will harm her name and honour too. She doesnt want her father disgraced because she loves him, its natural for her to ask this of shepard.

By reveiling the truth you not only do justice by condeming Rael, you also harm or convict Tali, who is inocent of any crime.

If you reveal the truth, Tali is immediately cleared of all charges and none of the guilt or blame falls upon her, not least because of Rael's recorded words explicitly stating that she had nothing to do with it.

Tali's honor is clean.

Not entirely, aldo cleared by law, those who knew her and Rael will always acociate her with Rael due to their blood relation.

Just look at real life situation where a family is looked at in a totaly difrent way, some times even with suspicion, if one of them (say a brother) is lets say a child molester. Aldo the rest of the family is inocent, the family name is soiled by the action of this one person. The same way a parents name gets forever linked to a crime involving their child as being the perpetrator in real life.

snip snip etc. etc. etc. in the same theme

This is all nice and plausible and all... except without support in game, and contrary to the game's narrative position.

When you turn out the truth, the peanut gallery of, well, everyone and the onlookers who are intended to give 'the Quarian view at helmet level' goes on about how they're ashamed at Rael, and how they're glad Tali had nothing to do with it, and how nothing Rael did in any way bismirches Tali. There is a clear distinction between Rael, and his actions, and Tali.

Maybe various Human socieities would do as you say, but the Quarians have their own societal standards that apparently differ.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Paragon is also considered going directly against Zaeed's will, and losing his loyalty. Paragon is also both being against and ultimately choosing to brainwash the geth. Paragon is inconsistent, in in lieu of inconsistency Bioware has a nasty little habit of making it the 'ideal' option that doesn't go bad for no other reason than writer fiat.

In both cases, the Paragon option is aiming to keep as many lives intact as possible. Perfectly consistent.

I would directly dispute that assertion in both cases.

Rael's dead and can't influence anyone on the material plane anymore. If his ghost really would be happy about this, let him.

Living Quarian admirals who can use the data, and the coverup, to further their ambitions for conquest and re-subjugation/enslavement of the Geth, however, can influence everyone, and have dire consequences.

Truth is the servant of welfare. If the truth would do more lasting damage than a lie, we may as well come up with the best lie possible.

In the long-view, however, wouldn't you agree that an honest government that does not condone atrocities in the violation of its own laws is better for the general welfare?

But here, I've succeeded. Tali isn't exiled, the fleet remains together, and the worst that's happened to the dead is that they stay dead.

The fleet is together, Tali is not exiled, and yet two admirals remain powerful in pubic sway and bent towards taking it to war with the Geth, with only Shepard's argument to be weighed against the prior status quo, which had more admirals favoring war.

'The Fleet' has no innate value in staying together. Breaking into various factions does not destroy the Quarian race, and does greatly diminish the harm to which it (and the Geth) can come to.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 janvier 2011 - 04:27 .

[hosch]

@Topic: covering up for Tali's father the right thing to do?
- Yep.

Just think about it: Shepard was Talis lawyer in her trial.
If my lawyer would betray me in a show-trial, i would kick his nuts right to the moon.
Since it was Talis trial, it was her decission how she wanted to handle her case and in this case i chose not to jeopardize my mission and the future of the galaxy just because i had to be a lawful stupid paladin.

My Shepard chose the paragon decision because i didn't see any right to stick my nose into foreign politics and i wanted my team focused on my mission. period. Call me amoral. I decided what is better for my mission and survival of the galaxy and i chose to cover it up. Since Tali may replace her father, i hope she'll make the right decisions in ME3 or else i'll talk to her like to Fist on Omega

At one point you're right, Eddo36:
I don't agree with Bioware how "covering up" had to be paragon, though. Just to make Tali happy?
Oh come on Bioware! I have to save the galaxy, not to care about some gal's feelings.
Look at the mission with Zaeed: Rescuing the workers is a paragon action, following Zaeeds rage is a renegade action. Zaeed sad: paragon, Zaeed happy: renegade.  Geez

In my opinion, covering up had to be a renegade option and showing the evidence a paragon option because:
A renegade Shepard cares for the job, nothing else matters.
-Covering up, Tali's happy and focused on the mission, Quarians united and useful against the reapers.
-I could live with it and take the renegade points, dont care.

As a Paragon on the other side, he had to act like a Lawful Stupid and made the evidence public but live with the consequences. He'd preserve HIS moral integrity but torn the fleet apart and made Tali sad.
Well, you can't make everyone happy.

Paragon/Renegade decisions should affect only Shepard and his moral attitude and not depend on how other people see him.

@Eddo36:
Talking about moral/ethics:
There is no right or wrong in morality because everyone got his own morality and it depends on his culture and his point of view. Every sapient individuum has to decide for itself what is moral and what not.
ie: Wedding a 10year old is still common in some cultures. Cutting off a thiefs arm is still common in some cultures. Killing people without punishment is still common in some cultures.

@Geth debate: I'd love to have an original Geth-Lamp™ with the Mass Effect 3 Collectors-Edition xD

[Pacifien]

You know, part of the reason why the fracturing of the Fleet doesn't much concern me is that, in my mind, the Fleet is already fractured and only working under the pretense of cohesion. This cohesion is to their benefit in regards to protecting themselves from piracy, but it has put them in a holding pattern for 300 years when it comes to deciding what their ultimate goal happens to be. I can imagine there are even some quarians who never want the Fleet to settle, either on a new colony or their homeworld. Kal'Reegar even mentions the idea of the value of a mobile society.

Many quarians who support finding a new homeworld cannot act because they need the military's protection. The military cannot reclaim Rannoch because they need the full might of the quarian fleet. After revealing the evidence, Tali mentions some ships breaking free from the fleet because they want to continue Rael's research. They can afford to do so because Rael's research ultimately is about breaking through the network of the entire geth with little bloodshed thanks to the power of hacking, and so military might is not an issue. But while this faction is working, there are other quarians who now seek to actively open peace talks with the geth. As the evidence is now a matter of public record, I imagine Legion can now access it without breaking into Tali's omnitool. In any case, it's a schism much like the geth/heretics, it would seem.

As I don't know how Shepard plans to confront the Reapers, there's no telling how important a unified quarian fleet is to the grand scheme of things. Their strength in numbers is also their weakness under the Reapers greatest weapon: indoctrination. A group in close proximity to each other lends itself to quick indoctrination.

Anyway, as to why I bother to argue the point, I don't actually expect someone to suddenly feel the revelation of a fictional war crime is vital to their moral well-being. However, I do not like the idea that the entire decision is treated as clear cut. Much as the council decision, the collector base decision, the rewrite decision: if you're making one decision, you are sacrificing something. Everyone Wins is such a copout to me. Decisions that matter? No, just decisions that make you feel good inside. Which, given the game is played by many people for entertainment, is a viable way to develop one's game, but then don't ask me to consider it as having any honest depth.

And yes, Geth Head Lamp for ME3!

Modifié par Pacifien, 07 janvier 2011 - 05:26 .

[hosch]

Pacifien wrote...
....
dont like to quote whole posts 

And yes, Geth Head Lamp for ME3!

I play the game for having fun and it still serves me well. My moral standards aren't affected by how i play a game, which movie i watch or stuff like that. I don't even take movies/games serious, if you wanted to say that.
I just wanted to point out the fact, that games/movies cannot describe the inner struggle of a protagonist to make tough choises plus the avaiable alternatives are not always comfortable with the moral standards of the players.
But hey, you can't make everyone happy and i can live with it.

Call me naive but i really hope for a happy ending in the quarian/geth conflict so i saw it as neccessary to let the fleet stay united.
Because strengh is through unity not through splitting up (human history proved it already) i also rewrote the heretics since the majority of the geth voted for reprogramming (democracy yay!) and a united migrant fleet might be foolish enough to try something
Remember, Legion mentioned it: They do not think like humans. So reprogramming is not like to enslave a race.

Tali said after her mission that there is a chance for her to step into her fathers shoes. Plus, i saw her change in character throughout ME1-ME2 become a more thoughtful young woman and i believe with Legion as a "diplomat" for the Geth there is a chance of peace or at least a ceasefire agreement.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

You know, part of the reason why the fracturing of the Fleet doesn't much concern me is that, in my mind, the Fleet is already fractured and only working under the pretense of cohesion. This cohesion is to their benefit in regards to protecting themselves from piracy, but it has put them in a holding pattern for 300 years when it comes to deciding what their ultimate goal happens to be. I can imagine there are even some quarians who never want the Fleet to settle, either on a new colony or their homeworld. Kal'Reegar even mentions the idea of the value of a mobile society.-

-rest snip-

I think this bears repeating, even. The unity of the Quarian fleet is as much a mirage as it is a fact, even before Tali's trial. They are divided, have been divided, and continue to be divided regardless of Shepard. They aren't even open to each other or the fleet: Rael went behind everyone's backs with his experiments, what's-his-name-pacifist manipulated the farce of a trial to undermine the rest, Xen will go behind the Quarian to continue the exact same experiments on her own even after the trial's 'good' result.

What sort of unity do we have at the end of ME2 with Tali happy? They still aren't at a consensus, and there are still elements willing and moving to make a war not only possible, but increasingly likely. Regardless of what Shepard says, his voice is only that: a voice, and the Flotilla can schism at any point. The greatest unity of the Flotilla is that the ships are still in one mass, not their their hearts and minds are as one.



Everything else Pacifien said is great as well, of course.

[Konfined]

You all appear to have forgotten your mission in the Valhallan Threshold; the purpose of your mission to the Migrant Fleet. You aren't there to get embroiled in Quarian politics. You aren't there to decide the judgment to be placed on Rael; you aren't there to uncover some underlying goals, or any conspiracies, or to get between any Quarian factions and their infighting. You aren't even there to defend Tali against the charges really.

Your mission is to ensure Tali's clear head and loyalty for your campaign against the Collectors; that is your primary objective while on board the Rayya. Everything else is a distraction to your main goal. Who are you to go against Tali's wishes; who are you to cast judgment upon Rael? Who are you, human, to decide what's best for Tali or the Quarian people? Who are you to impose your morality on them? That's not your job, that's not why you are there. You are there to make Tali happy, and to make sure she is level-headed, loyal, free from distraction and ready for the fight against the Collectors. Anything more is simply a waste on your part.

Modifié par Konfined, 07 janvier 2011 - 07:27 .

[hosch]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
What sort of unity do we have at the end of ME2 with Tali happy? They still aren't at a consensus, and there are still elements willing and moving to make a war not only possible, but increasingly likely. Regardless of what Shepard says, his voice is only that: a voice, and the Flotilla can schism at any point. The greatest unity of the Flotilla is that the ships are still in one mass, not their their hearts and minds are as one.

Everything else Pacifien said is great as well, of course.

Agree.
They don't have to be in complete agreement but it's still better to have different opinions but act like a whole race than many quarian seperatist groups who pursue different goals.

[hosch]

@Konfined: So true....

[Dean_the_Young]

hosch wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
What sort of unity do we have at the end of ME2 with Tali happy? They still aren't at a consensus, and there are still elements willing and moving to make a war not only possible, but increasingly likely. Regardless of what Shepard says, his voice is only that: a voice, and the Flotilla can schism at any point. The greatest unity of the Flotilla is that the ships are still in one mass, not their their hearts and minds are as one.

Everything else Pacifien said is great as well, of course.

Agree.
They don't have to be in complete agreement but it's still better to have different opinions but act like a whole race than many quarian seperatist groups who pursue different goals.

Why?

Whether you intend to side against the Geth or not, breaking up the fleet removes the most of the Quarian strength and political ability to make a major military action. If you oppose war, the militarists, while free, lose most of their strength. If you support the war, perhaps what they have from the data is enough as it is, and now they aren't limited. You can argue the military effect from either direction.

Breaking up the Fleet allows there to be Quarian colonies, because the fleet isn't deadlocked to stop that.

Breaking up the Fleet can initiate outright attempts at diplomacy with the Quarians, both by allowing contact (not stopped to dead lock) and by demonstrating Quarian divisions rather than unitiformity against the Geth.

The Flotilla remaining is still a significant (and unrepresented) force that the galaxy largely ignores regardless.


The divided Flotilla isn't as good at any one course of action, but then we have no definitive control over that direction anyway. It is good, however, at doing many things at once: sometimes contradictory, but you can hope and cheer and potentially help the side(s) you favor while limiting the ones you don't.

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

You all appear to have forgotten your mission in the Valhallan Threshold; the purpose of your mission to the Migrant Fleet. You aren't there to get embroiled in Quarian politics. You aren't there to decide the judgment to be placed on Rael; you aren't there to uncover some underlying goals, or any conspiracies, or to get between any Quarian factions and their infighting. You aren't even there to defend Tali against the charges really.

Your mission is to ensure Tali's clear head and loyalty for your campaign against the Collectors; that is your primary objective while on board the Rayya. Everything else is a distraction to your main goal. Who are you to go against Tali's wishes; who are you to cast judgment upon Rael? Who are you, human, to decide what's best for Tali or the Quarian people? Who are you to impose your morality on them? That's not your job, that's not why you are there. You are there to make Tali happy, and to make sure she is level-headed, loyal, free from distraction and ready for the fight against the Collectors. Anything more is simply a waste on your part.

Tali is just a sub-mission for a larger mission. Which is a sub-mission for the greater mission of opposing the Reapers. Which, in and of itself, is a mission under the point of protecting and creating a more desirable galaxy for (insert faction/group/yourself).

If a smaller mission conflicts with a bigger mission, as indeed you can deem it, the smaller mission is of less priority.

[hosch]

@Dean_the_Young
To have different opinions doesn't mean you have to tear a community appart. Thats why politicians exist. They talk to each other, make a consensus (or not) but dont give up the unity of the fleet just because some people don't agree with their goverment.

What military force? Quarians aren't Krogan, Turians or Humans. They aren't warriors.
Well, i only know about the Quarians from the game's codex and stuff in the wiki but:
As i know, every quarian millitary action went so terribly wrong that the survivors (if any) had to be rescued.
They screwed up to defend their homeworld, they screwed up a simple mission on haestrom and they still struggle to keep their fleet alive. I dont think there is much military power in the migrant navy. Maybe additional support against the reapers but thats all i can imagine.
Though, their tech skills are very useful and their talent for improvisation might come in handy against the reapers.

Even if the whole migrant fleet went to war against the geth, every quarian would be killed.
Thats for sure and even the extremists at the Rayya know that.
The only reason i let them united was that they would be useful allies against the reapers. A bunch of ships per seperatist "fleet" are not valuable allies against a galaxy-eating army of gigantic machines.
Plus: Everytime a small group of quarians want to attack the geth, they could destroy the efforts for peace of the rest of the fleet. As a united fleet, even the extremists can be controlled.

Modifié par hosch, 07 janvier 2011 - 08:05 .

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Tali is just a sub-mission for a larger mission. Which is a sub-mission for the greater mission of opposing the Reapers. Which, in and of itself, is a mission under the point of protecting and creating a more desirable galaxy for (insert faction/group/yourself).

If a smaller mission conflicts with a bigger mission, as indeed you can deem it, the smaller mission is of less priority.

Assumption and metagaming.  You nor I know what good the Fleet will do in ME3.  Still, going by your logic, that is all the more reason not to get involved.  Even with the claim you are looking ahead to the future for the fight against the Reapers, I fail to see how balkanizing the Fleet helps against the Reapers at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

hosch wrote...

@Dean_the_Young
What military force? Quarians aren't Krogan, Turians or Humans. They aren't warriors.

Ships and marines, of course.

Quarians aren't Krogan or Humans, but they don't need to be either.

Well, i only know about the Quarians from the game's codex, never read the books or other kind of lore but:
As i know, every quarian millitary action went so terribly wrong that the survivors (if any) had to be rescued.
They screwed up to defend their homeworld, they screwed up a simple mission on haestrom and they still struggle to keep their fleet alive. I dont think there is much military power in the fleet navy. Maybe additional support against the reapers but thats all i can imagine.
Though, their tech skills are very useful and their talent for improvisation might come in handy against the reapers.

They lost because the Geth were strong and they were dependent on the Geth for their needs, not because they were idiots. Lambasting people as idiots because they lost is only good for devaluating what calling someone an idiot is (or a screwup) is supposed to imply: incompetence.

Competent people lose as well.

Even if the whole migrant fleet went to war against the geth, every quarian would be killed.
Thats for sure and even the extremists at the Rayya know that.

That is not for sure, not a minority position to warrant being called extremist, and Rael's data can very well tip the balance by negating one of the Geth's most important strengths and turning it into a Quarian advantage.

The only reason i let them united was that they would be useful allies against the reapers. A bunch of ships per seperatist "fleet" are not valuable allies against a galaxy-eating army of gigantic machines.

Pre-built cannon fodder. You're going to need it regardless.

Plus: Everytime a small group of quarians want to attack the geth, they could destroy the efforts for peace of the rest of the fleet. As a united fleet, even the extremists can be controlled.

Controlled and entirely incapable of making any progress. If the extremists leave, they no longer represent or hold up the rest of the Fleet.