352 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

hosch wrote...
Plus: Everytime a small group of quarians want to attack the geth, they could destroy the efforts for peace of the rest of the fleet. As a united fleet, even the extremists can be controlled.

Obviously, the extremists can't be controlled because an admiral of the fleet managed to conduct experiments without anyone knowing until the experiment blew up in his face. When you reveal the evidence, Tali mentions that there are quarians now talking about opening up peaceful negotiations with the geth. Instead of the admirals glaring at each other waiting for one to blink, there is now open discussion among the quarians that something must be done. Bad timing considering the Reapers are out there? Who knows.

Konfined wrote...
Your mission is to ensure Tali's clear head and loyalty for your campaign against the Collectors; that is your primary objective while on board the Rayya. Everything else is a distraction to your main goal.

Which is a viable reason to sit on the evidence if this is how your Shepard works. This is why some people let Garrus shoot Sidonis even if they really don't want him to, because he wants to. But some Shepards tend to get overly distracted by sidequests that have no bearing on their main goal. In any case, just about every Shepard I have will do whatever the squadmate wants in order to ensure that they are focused on the job, but honestly? Some of them like Tali and Garrus are supposed to be professionals, and the very best at that, so why they let their personal affairs get in the way has always struck me as a bit off. That's the way the gameplay works, however.

I do question the idea that sitting on the evidence is the right thing to do, irregardless of how it affects Tali. Just assume it's a sidequest and there is no squadmate that you need to concern yourself. You have stumbled upon a volus who is doing weapons testing on sapient beings, but to reveal his experiments could cause chaos. Is revealing a war crime paramount no matter the consequence, or are there situations when it is okay not to reveal war crimes? Obviously, there is an argument to be made that there are times when war crimes shouldn't be revealed. I just don't happen to agree.

Modifié par Pacifien, 07 janvier 2011 - 08:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Tali is just a sub-mission for a larger mission. Which is a sub-mission for the greater mission of opposing the Reapers. Which, in and of itself, is a mission under the point of protecting and creating a more desirable galaxy for (insert faction/group/yourself).

If a smaller mission conflicts with a bigger mission, as indeed you can deem it, the smaller mission is of less priority.

Assumption and metagaming.  You nor I know what good the Fleet will do in ME3.  Still, going by your logic, that is all the more reason not to get involved. 

Metagaming is impossible as I do not know what happens in ME3, and assumption is a false aim because I make no assumptions of what will occur in Mass Effect 3. I dispute your claim about what Shepard's reason is supposed to be by pointing to already established nesting heirarchies, a concept you yourself referenced.

Even with the claim you are looking ahead to the future for the fight against the Reapers, I fail to see how balkanizing the Fleet helps against the Reapers at all.

Then you have not seen my post. Besides the woeful inaccuracy of the term 'balkanizing', what you stand to gain depends on what you want (and, of course, what you Shepard might attempt in the interrim).


If you want war with the Geth, Rael's data offers an immediate means for victory. The geth can be beaten now, rather than waiting and stalling and being held back by the deadlock, with much less of a collective threat to the Fleet and with plenty of time to resettle the homeworld and turn full attention back to the Reapers. Once the war is over, the remainder of the Flotilla will have little reason to remain apart.

This, it should be noted, can plausibly happen regardless of the Tali decision: rather than a fleet balkanized now, Admiral Xen and the war faction can secretly do the research and do it later regardless.



If you want and believe in peace, actual efforts will go forth. Even a guarded positive response from Legion's geth can firm up support and rational for the peace faction, and if the peace-faction can differentiate itself from the war-mongers, a diplomatic breakthrough on their part can swing the entire balance of power towards them. Rather than hem and haw and be obstructed by two Admirals with more sinister ambitions in mind for the Geth, the Quarians can actually start a peace process, from which a reunification of the Quarians on better terms can occur once they prove their value. (And, if not, the question of peace is settled once and for all, and power swings back to the War faction by fact that hte Geth aren't interested.)

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Metagaming is impossible as I do not know what happens in ME3, and assumption is a false aim because I make no assumptions of what will occur in Mass Effect 3. I dispute your claim about what Shepard's reason is supposed to be by pointing to already established nesting heirarchies, a concept you yourself referenced.

Then you have not seen my post. Besides the woeful inaccuracy of the term 'balkanizing', what you stand to gain depends on what you want (and, of course, what you Shepard might attempt in the interrim).

The term is actually very much applicable to this situation, and in fact almost perfectly defines what occurs when the information is brought to light.  Based on the statements Tali makes, the tensions are increased to the point where the Quarian factions have begun to split off to pursue different, conflicting goals, fracturing the already strenous solidarity of the Quarians, and thus balkanizing the Migrant Fleet. 

If you want war with the Geth, Rael's data offers an immediate means for victory. The geth can be beaten now, rather than waiting and stalling and being held back by the deadlock, with much less of a collective threat to the Fleet and with plenty of time to resettle the homeworld and turn full attention back to the Reapers. Once the war is over, the remainder of the Flotilla will have little reason to remain apart.

Metagaming and assumption both.  Rael's data offers nothing, aside from what we saw.  The results of the experiment's supposed success or failure have not even been fully revealed and you've basically written the ME universe's next book with your statements.

This, it should be noted, can plausibly happen regardless of the Tali decision: rather than a fleet balkanized now, Admiral Xen and the war faction can secretly do the research and do it later regardless.

 
Assumption, we don't know what Xen actually does with the data, we don't even know how much data she actually acquired or what the data actually entails.  We can both agree and safely assume she does in fact continue on with the experiments, we apparently can not agree, however, on what becomes of it.  But I make no attempts to say what Xen actually manages to accomplish because any attempts to do so will just be assumption.

If you want and believe in peace, actual efforts will go forth. Even a guarded positive response from Legion's geth can firm up support and rational for the peace faction, and if the peace-faction can differentiate itself from the war-mongers, a diplomatic breakthrough on their part can swing the entire balance of power towards them. Rather than hem and haw and be obstructed by two Admirals with more sinister ambitions in mind for the Geth, the Quarians can actually start a peace process, from which a reunification of the Quarians on better terms can occur once they prove their value. (And, if not, the question of peace is settled once and for all, and power swings back to the War faction by fact that hte Geth aren't interested.)

And in regards to Legion, I can't comment on that one due to  how my playthroughs work; Legion has not been encountered and I am unaware of the separate factions of Geth when doing Tali's mission.  It appears from this that we've both made the assumption that we are on the same page when we are, in fact, on completely different wavelengths.  In reality we are all guilty of assumption.  Also, perhaps maybe in my case more so than you, of bias. Pacifien hits it on the head perfectly though, and I can see the point you all are trying to make, and can even agree to a degree with this new perspective you two have given me on the situation. 

HOWEVER, even with this new perspective, it is still tactically unsound to cause a potential rift in the Quarians AND lose the loyalty and focus of Tali'Zora nar Rayyah vas Normandy, co-savior of the Citadel for the sake of your moral quandary.  That, I stand by.

Modifié par Konfined, 07 janvier 2011 - 09:04 .

[Pacifien]

Konfined wrote...
Pacifien hits it on the head perfectly though, and I can see the point you all are trying to make, and can even agree to a degree.

I win the Internet! WHOOOOOO!

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

If you want war with the Geth, Rael's data offers an immediate means for victory. The geth can be beaten now, rather than waiting and stalling and being held back by the deadlock, with much less of a collective threat to the Fleet and with plenty of time to resettle the homeworld and turn full attention back to the Reapers. Once the war is over, the remainder of the Flotilla will have little reason to remain apart.

Metagaming and assumption both.  Rael's data offers nothing, aside from what we saw.  The results of the experiment's supposed success or failure have not even been fully revealed and you've basically written the ME universe's next book with your statements.

And what we saw was that there was important progress in bypassing the Geth defenses. You put that out in the open, rather than cover it up, and you throw the ball in the hands of the Fleet itself. You don't need to know that ships will break off to experiment with the data to know that you can set up a situation in which they can. Shepard doesn't need to metagame to see real military advantages and applications in releasing the data.

Assumption, we don't know what Xen actually does with the data, we don't even know how much data she actually acquired or what the data actually entails.  We can both agree and safely assume she does in fact continue on with the experiments, we apparently can not agree, however, on what becomes of it.  But I make no attempts to say what Xen actually manages to accomplish because any attempts to do so will just be assumption.

We know what Xen wants to do with the data. We know what Xen could find (since the data is still on the ship in the first place). We know that the data is relevant to bypassing the Geth anti-hacking defenses, which is one of the main reasons Geth can't be simply remotely hacked and beaten. Since no objection to the feasibility of the experiments and progress was ever made, nor was any dispute of the validity of the belief in a breakthrough, we have no reason to doubt that progress can be carried on, and gained from it.

Assumption it may be, but it's a very grounded one consistent with her character, capabilities, opportunities, and rational.

Foresight isn't perfect, but it is a requisite part for any functioning human to learn. You can't know the future, but you can identify patterns, track actions, and see more likely outcomes.

And in regards to Legion, I can't comment on that one due to  how my playthroughs work; Legion has not been encountered and I am unaware of the separate factions of Geth when doing Tali's mission.  It appears from this that we've both made the assumption that we are on the same page when we are, in fact, on completely different wavelengths.  In reality we are all guilty of assumption.  Pacifien hits it on the head perfectly though, and I can see the point you all are trying to make, and can even agree to a degree.

You don't need to be aware of Geth factions to believe the Geth should be approached to make peace. It certainly undercuts a lot of common sense, but the Quarian race has a large movement in support of a peace process despite any lack of sign of willingness or desire on the part of the Geth.

Believing Legion that the Geth really are interested in peace, however, simply gives those Shepards a greater reason to see revealing the data (and undercutting the militant admirals) as a nice idea.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

Konfined wrote...
Pacifien hits it on the head perfectly though, and I can see the point you all are trying to make, and can even agree to a degree.

I win the Internet! WHOOOOOO!

I see the smile, and then I see the user picture, and even I went 'Aw...'

[hosch]

Pacifien wrote...

hosch wrote...
Plus: Everytime a small group of quarians want to attack the geth, they could destroy the efforts for peace of the rest of the fleet. As a united fleet, even the extremists can be controlled.

Obviously, the extremists can't be controlled because an admiral of the fleet managed to conduct experiments without anyone knowing until the experiment blew up in his face. When you reveal the evidence, Tali mentions that there are quarians now talking about opening up peaceful negotiations with the geth. Instead of the admirals glaring at each other waiting for one to blink, there is now open discussion among the quarians that something must be done.

Maybe, maybe not. Since i reprogrammed the geth later and Legion knows about the experiments i bet the Geth are well prepared for a possible quarian strike. There are people in the fleet who doesn't agree with the warmongers at all. As i can see there are 3 factons inside the fleet: the warmonger who want the homeworld back and kill the geth, the neutrals who want to stay in space and the thoughtful who want the homeworld back via diplomacy. The warmongers are definitely in the minority because even the neutrals tend to go back to the homeworld.
Everytime I play ME2 is like the first time... I know what i dont know and the only geth for me are sarens geth.
Still, on my first playthrough i had everytime peace with the geth in mind...
Even with the evidence hidden and some Idiot is going to continue Raels work, i dont think they will succeed until the reapers arrive.

Bad timing considering the Reapers are out there? Who knows.

I'd call it Karma

In any case, just about every Shepard I have will do whatever the squadmate wants in order to ensure that they are focused on the job, but honestly? Some of them like Tali and Garrus are supposed to be professionals, and the very best at that, so why they let their personal affairs get in the way has always struck me as a bit off. That's the way the gameplay works, however.

Yeah, i feel almost the same way but thats the gameplay... do you know what the Milgram-Experiment is? 

I do question the idea that sitting on the evidence is the right thing to do, irregardless of how it affects Tali. Just assume it's a sidequest and there is no squadmate that you need to concern yourself. You have stumbled upon a volus who is doing weapons testing on sapient beings, but to reveal his experiments could cause chaos. Is revealing a war crime paramount no matter the consequence, or are there situations when it is okay not to reveal war crimes? Obviously, there is an argument to be made that there are times when war crimes shouldn't be revealed. I just don't happen to agree.

Thats what i mentioned in my first post and totally agree with you.

@Konfined: Agree. Nothing more to add.

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And what we saw was that there was important progress in bypassing the Geth defenses. You put that out in the open, rather than cover it up, and you throw the ball in the hands of the Fleet itself. You don't need to know that ships will break off to experiment with the data to know that you can set up a situation in which they can. Shepard doesn't need to metagame to see real military advantages and applications in releasing the data.

He doesn't need to metagame indeed, but he does need the foresight to see the potential damage it can cause.  With the tensions already at a boiling point as it is, adding more fuel to the fire outweighs the supposed benefits of giving them the research, which will do Shepard no good when the immediate threat is the Reapers anyhow, a point you yourself brought forward.  How does giving them Geth research to fight the Geth later on down the line, once they get past the infighting and conflict and balkanization that is, do anything to help Shepard stop the Reapers now?

We know what Xen wants to do with the data. We know what Xen could find (since the data is still on the ship in the first place). We know that the data is relevant to bypassing the Geth anti-hacking defenses, which is one of the main reasons Geth can't be simply remotely hacked and beaten. Since no objection to the feasibility of the experiments and progress was ever made, nor was any dispute of the validity of the belief in a breakthrough, we have no reason to doubt that progress can be carried on, and gained from it.

Assumption it may be, but it's a very grounded one consistent with her character, capabilities, opportunities, and rational.

Foresight isn't perfect, but it is a requisite part for any functioning human to learn. You can't know the future, but you can identify patterns, track actions, and see more likely outcomes.

There's a difference between foresight, and just baseless assumption.  You skate a very fine line, but you are actually correct in this point.  We can both reasonably ascertain that she will continue the experiments anyway.  Determining what becomes of her own research, success or failure however, will just be assumption.  Just want to point that out. 

You don't need to be aware of Geth factions to believe the Geth should be approached to make peace. It certainly undercuts a lot of common sense, but the Quarian race has a large movement in support of a peace process despite any lack of sign of willingness or desire on the part of the Geth.

Believing Legion that the Geth really are interested in peace, however, simply gives those Shepards a greater reason to see revealing the data (and undercutting the militant admirals) as a nice idea.

This again illustrates my point on us being on two wavelengths, and Pacifien's point about what a player wants with their particular Shepard.  At this point in time of the game, my Shepard knows only the Heretics, she (my main one is presently female btw) isn't interested in peace with the Geth, she's all for the destruction of the Geth, when the time is right. 

And bringing Legion into this discussion only adds to the confusion of the point any of us are trying to make, because we're seeing it from completely different in-game perspectives which make it impossible for us to reach consensus (I know you saw what I did there) due to the very nature of how we roleplay.  Legion and the true Geth are not yet a factor in my decisions on the Rayya, nor will they ever be.  I can't possibly continue this point of the argument when my perspective and bias blinds me to yours, and vice versa.  So we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. 

[Pacifien]

I think many people (well, the ones interested in perfect survival rates for the suicide mission)  will have done Tali's loyalty mission before ever picking up Legion, so in that respect, the geth are the enemy to Shepard. However, how far Shepard is willing to combat the enemy is again dependent on the Shepard. My own Shepard argued with Tali in ME1 about the quarians' decision to do a pre-emptive strike against the geth, and this is after my Shepard is already deep into combating Saren and his geth. This same character would draw the line on experimenting on networked geth, because the character views them as sapient and, thus, deserving the same rights as other sapients.

Modifié par Pacifien, 07 janvier 2011 - 09:37 .

[Xilizhra]

I would directly dispute that assertion in both cases.

I know that you think that altering one opinion of the heretic geth is as bad as killing them, but why do you dispute the Zaeed thing?

Living Quarian admirals who can use the data, and the coverup, to further their ambitions for conquest and re-subjugation/enslavement of the Geth, however, can influence everyone, and have dire consequences.

I don't think Han'Garrel would do that; he may not be as peaceful as I'd like, but he wouldn't condone Rael's experiments. And Xen will do whatever she likes regardless of what I do here.

In the long-view, however, wouldn't you agree that an honest government that does not condone atrocities in the violation of its own laws is better for the general welfare?

Yes. However, the coverup here is being done by Shepard, an independent operative.

The fleet is together, Tali is not exiled, and yet two admirals remain powerful in pubic sway and bent towards taking it to war with the Geth, with only Shepard's argument to be weighed against the prior status quo, which had more admirals favoring war.

It's true that I can't control their decisions, but Shala'Raan may be swayed into Zaal'Koris' camp, and considering how deadlocked the quarians were with the more war-favored Rael alive, I don't think decisive military action will be taken before the Reapers arrive.

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And what we saw was that there was important progress in bypassing the Geth defenses. You put that out in the open, rather than cover it up, and you throw the ball in the hands of the Fleet itself. You don't need to know that ships will break off to experiment with the data to know that you can set up a situation in which they can. Shepard doesn't need to metagame to see real military advantages and applications in releasing the data.

He doesn't need to metagame indeed, but he does need the foresight to see the potential damage it can cause.  With the tensions already at a boiling point as it is, adding more fuel to the fire outweighs the supposed benefits of giving them the research, which will do Shepard no good when the immediate threat is the Reapers anyhow, a point you yourself brought forward.  How does giving them Geth research to fight the Geth later on down the line, once they get past the infighting and conflict and balkanization that is, do anything to help Shepard stop the Reapers now?

The geth are (presumed) Reaper allies, and facing them now, when they can't support the Reapers and vice versa, has obvious strategic appeals. If you want to focus on the Geth first, there's little better way than by throwing the evidence into the open proving that victory is possible.

Moreover, once (if) the homeworld is taken, there's little reason to believe the Flotilla would stay divided into its main camps: control of the homeworld is control over the most potent symbol of the Quarian race, and most of the reasons to remain separate from the Militants are rendered moot if the militants win: the Geth are defeated and peace is no longer an option, the war is past and so home is no longer dangerous, and the homeworld is a better place to settle than anywhere else.

There's a difference between foresight, and just baseless assumption.  You skate a very fine line, but you are actually correct in this point.  We can both reasonably ascertain that she will continue the experiments anyway.  Determining what becomes of her own research, success or failure however, will just be assumption.  Just want to point that out. 

Thank you. I usually am.

[Konfined]

Pacifien wrote...

I think many people (well, the ones interested in perfect survival rates for the suicide mission)  will have done Tali's loyalty mission before ever picking up Legion, so in that respect, the geth are the enemy to Shepard. However, how far Shepard is willing to combat the enemy is again dependent on the Shepard. My own Shepard argued with Tali in ME1 about the quarians' decision to do a pre-emptive strike against the geth, and this is after my Shepard is already deep into combating Saren and his geth. This same character would draw the line on experimenting on networked geth, because the character views them as sapient and, thus, deserving the same rights as other sapients.

Indeed.  My Shepard is a tad bit more dark in that regard.  After what she witnessed on Eden Prime, prior to meeting Legion she is all for their destruction, just when it's appropriate.  Now with Saren and the Geth waging war on the galaxy in ME1 and with the Collectors and Reapers in ME2.  It's one of the things I love and hate about this game: I've never really immersed myself in a gaming universe like I have here, but it's turned me into a bigger nerd than I'm willing to admit and I will be sad when the ME universe is concluded.  See my sad face as follows:

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would directly dispute that assertion in both cases.

I know that you think that altering one opinion of the heretic geth is as bad as killing them, but why do you dispute the Zaeed thing?

The potential regional/galactic gains from likely infighting and replacement issues in the Blue Suns at the loss of their leader. Even a modest dip in organizational efficiency, activity, or even just brutality would more than balance the number of people in the refinery, simply because the Blue Suns are that big and that widespread. Even just a day of everyone sitting still and wondering who would come out on top.

I don't think Han'Garrel would do that; he may not be as peaceful as I'd like, but he wouldn't condone Rael's experiments. And Xen will do whatever she likes regardless of what I do here.

Han's convinced to go to war regardless. Xen's shift not only gives him the allies, but the tools to have a much better chance at it. What, precisely, don't you think he's going to do? Do you think he'll stop Xen? Refuse Xen's offers? Reject Xen's developments?

Yes. However, the coverup here is being done by Shepard, an independent operative.

Shepard is independent politically, but Shepard's actions still affect those around the galaxy. Being independent doesn't change that.

It's true that I can't control their decisions, but Shala'Raan may be swayed into Zaal'Koris' camp, and considering how deadlocked the quarians were with the more war-favored Rael alive, I don't think decisive military action will be taken before the Reapers arrive.

If she wasn't before, why would she now, especially in light that Qwib Qwib just used the daughter of her life-long friend in a political power struggle?

The Quarians are going to have to put their people somewhere before they fight the Reapers. The Quarian homeworld is as good, even better, place as any in many respects, and Xen's ambitions would make war against the Geth an incredible asset to the Quarian ability to fight the Reapers: the Quarians get their homeworld, free up their remaining fleet, and also stand to gain an entire new synthetic army for use.

An army, it might be pointed out, which won't do much good or be as expendable on the Quarian's behalf after the Reapers.

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The geth are (presumed) Reaper allies, and facing them now, when they can't support the Reapers and vice versa, has obvious strategic appeals. If you want to focus on the Geth first, there's little better way than by throwing the evidence into the open proving that victory is possible.

Moreover, once (if) the homeworld is taken, there's little reason to believe the Flotilla would stay divided into its main camps: control of the homeworld is control over the most potent symbol of the Quarian race, and most of the reasons to remain separate from the Militants are rendered moot if the militants win: the Geth are defeated and peace is no longer an option, the war is past and so home is no longer dangerous, and the homeworld is a better place to settle than anywhere else.

But you don't know that.  In fact it's already mentioned by Kal that going at the Geth is a fools pursuit, and that's with the Fleet fully united.  Divided, fighting amongst each other, with still undeveloped research (which resulted in the deaths of the researchers btw) against the Geth in any capacity has a far greater potential of failure, using insight and logic based on what we know.  And that "if," is a very significant "if."  "If" the homeworld is taken, "if" the Quarians are even in a position to settle on the homeworld, "if" the war hasn't taken years, decades, and the 17 million Quarians still remaining aren't completely annihilated with their still unsound research, their rickety put together ships, and questionable military. 

To put this into perspective: three individuals cleared out a ship of fully networked Geth that a squad of Quarian marines were slaughtered in.  A typical Marine squad consists of no less than 12 indivduals, 3 fire teams of 4, with one fire team consisting of crew based machine guns, which can be translated in the ME universe as heavy weapons.  If they couldn't handle one ship that three individuals handily clear out,  how can they handle the entirety of the Geth in time to, and still in the capacity to, assist against the as of now looming Reaper threat? 

I ask again: How does giving them Geth research to fight the Geth later on down the
line, once they get past the infighting and conflict and balkanization AND further research and development of unsafe Geth hacking techniques, do anything to help Shepard stop the Reapers now?

Modifié par Konfined, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:08 .

[Xilizhra]

The potential regional/galactic gains from likely infighting and replacement issues in the Blue Suns at the loss of their leader. Even a modest dip in organizational efficiency, activity, or even just brutality would more than balance the number of people in the refinery, simply because the Blue Suns are that big and that widespread. Even just a day of everyone sitting still and wondering who would come out on top.

Arguable. Remember what people said about Blue Suns control of the Omega slums: hard, but preferable to the plague and vorcha raiders. Not only would the body count within the Suns' own ranks be high, but depending on where it happens, more innocents could well die as well. It's all completely uncertain; all that is certain is whom I can save, right here.

Han's convinced to go to war regardless. Xen's shift not only gives him the allies, but the tools to have a much better chance at it. What, precisely, don't you think he's going to do? Do you think he'll stop Xen? Refuse Xen's offers? Reject Xen's developments?

I don't think he'll agree to Xen's plan to take control of the geth; he strikes me as too conservative to make that gamble. And Xen oozes enough disdain for both him and Koris that I don't think she'll share; my impression of her is that she'll try to use her own faction to take control of the geth. I suspect there's a fair chance that stopping her will be a mission in ME3.

Shepard is independent politically, but Shepard's actions still affect those around the galaxy. Being independent doesn't change that.

Indeed, but it's not a matter of a government keeping things secret.

If she wasn't before, why would she now, especially in light that Qwib Qwib just used the daughter of her life-long friend in a political power struggle?

Shepard's recommendation, maybe?

[Pacifien]

Rael wasn't working on a weapon like an improved mass accelerator cannon. He was working on overcoming all of the geth's defenses to being hacked. Hacking a network of geth is a potent weapon, particularly if you can then reprogram them the way Daro'Xen would like. It's the ultimate sabotage.

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The geth are (presumed) Reaper allies, and facing them now, when they can't support the Reapers and vice versa, has obvious strategic appeals. If you want to focus on the Geth first, there's little better way than by throwing the evidence into the open proving that victory is possible.

Moreover, once (if) the homeworld is taken, there's little reason to believe the Flotilla would stay divided into its main camps: control of the homeworld is control over the most potent symbol of the Quarian race, and most of the reasons to remain separate from the Militants are rendered moot if the militants win: the Geth are defeated and peace is no longer an option, the war is past and so home is no longer dangerous, and the homeworld is a better place to settle than anywhere else.

But you don't know that.

Don't know what: that it will be successful? That it will work?

No, I don't, but I can make the judgement that it has a better chance than other actions.

In fact it's already mentioned by Kal that going at the Geth is a fools pursuit, and that's with the Fleet fully united.  Divided, fighting amongst each other, with still undeveloped research (which resulted in the deaths of the researchers btw) against the Geth in any capacity has a far greater potential of failure, using insight and logic based on what we know. 

And that ignores something Kal was ignorant of: the potential ground-breaking application of Rael's work.

The reason that the Geth are fearsome is that they are immune to long-term hacking... until now. Rael's work was something that was giving promise to be able to not only circumvent that issue, but to take advantage of it. If the Geth are made hackable, then the Quarians don't have to fight them: the Quarians simply have to hack them, from range and orbit, and can increasingly let their 'turned' army do the fighting for them. 

The potential of this as a weapon against the Geth is incredible.

That "if", is a very significant "if."  "If" the homeworld is taken, "if" the Quarians are even in a position to settle on the homeworld, "if" the war hasn't taken years, decades, and the 17 million Quarians still remaining aren't completely annihilated with their still unsound research, their rickety put together ships, and questionable military. 

If the fleet is split up and the militant faction wipes itself out, how in the least does that end up wiping out the entire fleet? The rest of them are gone. Not involved. Elsewhere. The Migrant Fleet would only be killed if the entire migrant fleet were to be involved (and fail).

If the militant faction attacks and fails, then they lose and the rest of the fleet survives, and you've weakened the Geth (who, one assumes at this point of foresight, are the enemy and so this is a good thing). If the militants develop this weapon and win, they do so quickly (because of the nature of the weapon), and in far shorter period than the decades the Quarians are stated to need to acclimate to other worlds.

Either way, the Reaper and their allies are weakened, the whole of the Migrant Fleet is never put into combat, and even in failure what is lost is rickety, obsolescent ships that would be scrap metal shortly enough against the Reapers, and would stand better utility against hte less-advanced Geth.

Three individuals cleared out a ship of Geth that a squad of Quarian marines were slaughtered in.  A typical Marine squad consists of no less than 12 indivduals, 3 fire teams of 4, with one fire team consisting of crew based machine guns.  If they couldn't handle one ship that three individuals handily clear out,  how can they handle the entirety of the Geth in time to and still in the capacity the as of now looming Reaper threat?

Hacking!

It's the magic rediscovered by Rael. (Or, rather, the made re-possible.)

So I ask again: How does giving them Geth research to fight the Geth later on down the
line, once they get past the infighting and conflict and balkanization, do anything to help Shepard stop the Reapers now?

Weakening, possibly capturing for repurposing, the Reapers primary allies in the galaxy here and now.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

The potential regional/galactic gains from likely infighting and replacement issues in the Blue Suns at the loss of their leader. Even a modest dip in organizational efficiency, activity, or even just brutality would more than balance the number of people in the refinery, simply because the Blue Suns are that big and that widespread. Even just a day of everyone sitting still and wondering who would come out on top.

Arguable. Remember what people said about Blue Suns control of the Omega slums: hard, but preferable to the plague and vorcha raiders. Not only would the body count within the Suns' own ranks be high, but depending on where it happens, more innocents could well die as well. It's all completely uncertain; all that is certain is whom I can save, right here.

Arguable indeed, but this thread isn't the time or place for that argument.

I don't think he'll agree to Xen's plan to take control of the geth; he strikes me as too conservative to make that gamble. And Xen oozes enough disdain for both him and Koris that I don't think she'll share; my impression of her is that she'll try to use her own faction to take control of the geth. I suspect there's a fair chance that stopping her will be a mission in ME3.

Temporarily hacking geth has been Quarian tactics for as long as they've been fighting. Hacking them for longer, to the benefit of the Quarians? Even if he doesn't want to keep them, they could still be then ordered to provide no resistence.

Indeed, but it's not a matter of a government keeping things secret.

It is. The data isn't deleted from the Alarai when Shepard takes it. It can be (and is) found again. Not only is the opportunity for the political chastisement of government wrongdoing never broadcast, but still-living admirals take their own cover up. Not to mention in the least the influence on Tali, who herself is a Quarian golden child rapidly ascending the ranks of Quarian power.

Shepard's recommendation, maybe?

She owes you, but I doubt you're seriously going to tell me she owes you that much to base Quarian policy on the suggestion of an outsider for favor rendered.

[Xilizhra]

Temporarily hacking geth has been Quarian tactics for as long as they've been fighting. Hacking them for longer, to the benefit of the Quarians? Even if he doesn't want to keep them, they could still be then ordered to provide no resistence.

Maybe, but that's not what Xen wants; she wants them all to be returned to quarian control permanently. I doubt she'd accede to Han simply destroying them all while they stand still.

It is. The data isn't deleted from the Alarai when Shepard takes it. It can be (and is) found again. Not only is the opportunity for the political chastisement of government wrongdoing never broadcast, but still-living admirals take their own cover up. Not to mention in the least the influence on Tali, who herself is a Quarian golden child rapidly ascending the ranks of Quarian power.

But we're discussing the morality of Shepard's actions here, not the admirals'. I'm making the argument that focusing on the real reasons for the trial in a Charm rant is morally defensible. Future coverups by the admirals aren't my concern here.

She owes you, but I doubt you're seriously going to tell me she owes you that much to base Quarian policy on the suggestion of an outsider for favor rendered.

If your recommendation didn't matter, would it be flagged for import?

[Xilizhra]

I will, however, concede this. Since losing Tali's loyalty on the mission isn't a matter of failing it so much as making a choice (unlike Samara and Thane), I think that there should have been a persuade option to regain Tali's loyalty after revealing the evidence, akin to the option with Zaeed (I also think that if Shepard was going to reveal the data, she really should, like, talk to Tali about it on the shuttle trip over; telling her to not talk about it and then blowing Rael's story is quite a dick move).

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe, but that's not what Xen wants; she wants them all to be returned to quarian control permanently. I doubt she'd accede to Han simply destroying them all while they stand still.

The next question is could she stop him?

Problems down the road don't preclude alliances today. The more important is the congruance of interests: both Xen and Han want the Geth beaten. What to do with them afterwards might be up to dispute. Or perhaps not: we never get any position from Han about what he would do with the opportunity, or any real sign of opposition to the research, while Rael though Han would use it.

But we're discussing the morality of Shepard's actions here, not the admirals'. I'm making the argument that focusing on the real reasons for the trial in a Charm rant is morally defensible. Future coverups by the admirals aren't my concern here.

The likely consequences and consequent Admiral actions are shaped by Shepard's actions, and so should be concluded in the question of the morality. Morality isn't limited to the first degree of effect, it's also linked to the consequences. If it weren't, 'the gun killed him, not me' would be a legal defense against murder charges.

If your recommendation didn't matter, would it be flagged for import?

Why not? Flags don't need to change the plot when changing the tone can do so much better. Regardless of what occurs, Mass Effect sets up a situation in which a Quarian/Geth war is very much in the cards. ME3 could go with Shepard's recommendation changing absolutely everything for the Quarian/Geth plot arc, or we could see the same general plot arc with differences in who says what, as opposed to what's going on.

Example:

If you urge them to go to war, Xen and Han succede and prosecute their war, with Qwib Qwib as a bystander. Their dialogue reflects this.

If you urge peace, Qwib Qwib might start negotiations, but is undercut by Xen and Han who still succede in starting a conflict, with dialogue to reflect this.

Dialogue is changed, endings of scenarios can differ, but the 'we can only program so many levels' issue is solved with a story mission either way.

Or they could even go more basic, and have a conflict start regardless of your position, and dialogue be the only reflection of your choice. 'You should have listened to me,' or 'you supported this as well.' That would be well possible as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I will, however, concede this. Since losing Tali's loyalty on the mission isn't a matter of failing it so much as making a choice (unlike Samara and Thane), I think that there should have been a persuade option to regain Tali's loyalty after revealing the evidence, akin to the option with Zaeed (I also think that if Shepard was going to reveal the data, she really should, like, talk to Tali about it on the shuttle trip over; telling her to not talk about it and then blowing Rael's story is quite a dick move).

To balance out Zaeed, it should be a Renegade persuade no less.:happy:

[Xilizhra]

Problems down the road don't preclude alliances today. The more important is the congruance of interests: both Xen and Han want the Geth beaten. What to do with them afterwards might be up to dispute. Or perhaps not: we never get any position from Han about what he would do with the opportunity, or any real sign of opposition to the research, while Rael though Han would use it.

More opinions, I suppose. I don't think the two would play well together.

The likely consequences and consequent Admiral actions are shaped by Shepard's actions, and so should be concluded in the question of the morality. Morality isn't limited to the first degree of effect, it's also linked to the consequences. If it weren't, 'the gun killed him, not me' would be a legal defense against murder charges.

Guns are incapable of making decisions, so that doesn't really count. I do see your point, but, well, I've already made my own case.

Why not? Flags don't need to change the plot when changing the tone can do so much better. Regardless of what occurs, Mass Effect sets up a situation in which a Quarian/Geth war is very much in the cards. ME3 could go with Shepard's recommendation changing absolutely everything for the Quarian/Geth plot arc, or we could see the same general plot arc with differences in who says what, as opposed to what's going on.

True. If it's about gathering allies, likely you won't be cut off from anyone regardless of your choices in ME2 (for this reason, I don't think that the heretic virus will succeed even if you did sell Legion; something else will come up to stop it).

To balance out Zaeed, it should be a Renegade persuade no less.

There should be one Paragon, one Renegade. I also think there should have been a Renegade persuade with Zaeed. Something along the lines of "You jackass; unlike you, I mean to bring all of my troops out of this alive, and that includes you. And for that, you'll need to follow my orders; you can hunt down Vido after we deal with the Collectors."

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why not? Flags don't need to change the plot when changing the tone can do so much better. Regardless of what occurs, Mass Effect sets up a situation in which a Quarian/Geth war is very much in the cards. ME3 could go with Shepard's recommendation changing absolutely everything for the Quarian/Geth plot arc, or we could see the same general plot arc with differences in who says what, as opposed to what's going on.

True. If it's about gathering allies, likely you won't be cut off from anyone regardless of your choices in ME2 (for this reason, I don't think that the heretic virus will succeed even if you did sell Legion; something else will come up to stop it).

Why not? You can lose the Rachni, why not lose the Geth? You still win, but it's just at greater cost.

I predict that ME3 will focus on an outbreak in Geth/Quarian violence: either the Quarian war movement, or Admiral Xen's machinations to take over the Geth. This is keeping either party from supporting Earth, so Shepard goes to sort out the problem and get them fighting the real threat.

There's a strong impetus to push it to a 'Geth or Quarian delimma', but prior game choices shape it, and there's a secondary 'allow Xen control/no' question as well. Ideally you can, after a series of gunfights, mediate peace and get both parties to focus on Sovereign, while dealing with Xen one way or another. However, if you choose to side against the Geth, against the Quarians, their faction is damaged, while the other faction is destroyed.

And if you let the Geth be virused, you can't recruit them at all, shaping the decision point.

In this sort of way, everyone gets a level, without anyone being cheated out on how they intended things to ultimately end up.

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Don't know what: that it will be successful? That it will work?

No, I don't, but I can make the judgement that it has a better chance than other actions.

 

And that ignores something Kal was ignorant of: the potential ground-breaking application of Rael's work.

The reason that the Geth are fearsome is that they are immune to long-term hacking... until now. Rael's work was something that was giving promise to be able to not only circumvent that issue, but to take advantage of it. If the Geth are made hackable, then the Quarians don't have to fight them: the Quarians simply have to hack them, from range and orbit, and can increasingly let their 'turned' army do the fighting for them. 

The potential of this as a weapon against the Geth is incredible.
 

And this is while ignoring the little miniscule, minor, insignificant fact that the research is at present untested, unsound and basically incomplete.  You continue to ignore the all important fact that: it's not finished, in fact far from it.  Rael is dead, his team is dead, meaning fundementally the research didn't work.  They didn't hack the Geth, they have not yet discovered the secret to their anti-hacking techniques or else we wouldn't even be having this type of discussion. 

If the fleet is split up and the militant faction wipes itself out, how in the least does that end up wiping out the entire fleet? The rest of them are gone. Not involved. Elsewhere. The Migrant Fleet would only be killed if the entire migrant fleet were to be involved (and fail).

If the militant faction attacks and fails, then they lose and the rest of the fleet survives, and you've weakened the Geth (who, one assumes at this point of foresight, are the enemy and so this is a good thing). If the militants develop this weapon and win, they do so quickly (because of the nature of the weapon), and in far shorter period than the decades the Quarians are stated to need to acclimate to other worlds.

Either way, the Reaper and their allies are weakened, the whole of the Migrant Fleet is never put into combat, and even in failure what is lost is rickety, obsolescent ships that would be scrap metal shortly enough against the Reapers, and would stand better utility against hte less-advanced Geth.

The potential of this yet again, unfinished, unsound research which will take a good amount of time for Daro'Xen to complete, using sound logic and foresight.  Do you honestly believe that even in the ME universe that this kind of research will pop up and be completed overnight?  What with Daro having to locate enough able minded and willing Quarians capable of matching the group that was working with Rael.  Obviously she
wasn't in on Rael's work, so now has to get up to speed, get a team together, and somehow research and perfect a weapon that allows them to permanently bypass the Geth's anti-hacking technique.  Yeah, that will
really happen overnight. 

But let's say, yeah, they magically managed to compile, in short order, a weapon that affords them some control over the Geth.  How much or how little of course being up for debate as well since, you know, the research is theoretical and completely untested in a combat scenario without the researchers involved being killed.  (Oh and nevermind the fact that using untested tech in a wartime scenario is tactically unsound in and of itself; I've never had to do it, thank God.)  

The Quarians have 17 million left.  That's the estimated entirety of their race; their entire race numbers 17 million.  Of that there are only enough military to service a hundred or so ships.  And let's keep in mind, that this so called military is actually more like a police force for their civilian ship population.  Now of that population maybe half join the militant side, again being generous.  The Heretics alone have  2.4 million mobile platforms sitting at their main base.  That's just the Heretics.  Pretty sure the Quarians, even with Legions revelations, won't care or distinguish between the two.  So even with their completely theoretical untested weapon, they are still vastly outnumbered, outgunned and completely outmatched.  Their attack undoubtedly fails.

So the militants attack and fail, then who in the world will be left to stand against the Geth or the Reapers?  Even assuming the Geth choose not to retaliate, what's left of the Migrant Fleet will be Koris and his lot.  What good will they be in assisting Shepard? 

Hacking!

It's the magic rediscovered by Rael. (Or, rather, the made re-possible.)
Weakening, possibly capturing for repurposing, the Reapers primary allies in the galaxy here and now.

If you honestly believe that's going to happen in anywhere close enough time for them to combat the Reaper threat, with everything else on top of that, then this exchange is unfortunately over.  Bottom line, there is no tactical military advantage to presenting that data to the Migrant Fleet.  Logic, reasoning, insight and foresight, however  theoretical it may be, clearly supports this.  You want to make a politcal or moral cased towards it, there's plenty to argue for doing so. 

No military mind worth the salt of the galaxy would present that data with the belief that it would be tactically advantageous to do so.

Modifié par Konfined, 07 janvier 2011 - 11:13 .