352 réponses à ce sujet

[hosch]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If the fleet is split up and the militant faction wipes itself out, how in the least does that end up wiping out the entire fleet? The rest of them are gone. Not involved. Elsewhere. The Migrant Fleet would only be killed if the entire migrant fleet were to be involved (and fail).

If the militant faction attacks and fails, then they lose and the rest of the fleet survives, and you've weakened the Geth (who, one assumes at this point of foresight, are the enemy and so this is a good thing). If the militants develop this weapon and win, they do so quickly (because of the nature of the weapon), and in far shorter period than the decades the Quarians are stated to need to acclimate to other worlds.

Either way, the Reaper and their allies are weakened, the whole of the Migrant Fleet is never put into combat, and even in failure what is lost is rickety, obsolescent ships that would be scrap metal shortly enough against the Reapers, and would stand better utility against hte less-advanced Geth.

And here comes the almighty assumption.
You do not know! Even Shepard is not Nostradamus to see in the future. Nor am I Nostradamus. Everything we can do is speculate about the consequences of the trial.
Maybe Tali is the tip on the scale to pacify the fleet and go for peace with the geth. Maybe she goes nuts about her fathers death and go for war? Who knows?
What i know is that Tali changed her mind throughout ME1-ME2 to be more thoughtful with the geth.
Killing geth in ME1 was fun for her, in ME2 she dont like her fathers experiments at all and has deep thoughts about Legions mission.
Keep in mind, that she mentioned she might be her fathers replacement in the admirality board!
Maybe Raels research wasn't successful at all, who knows?

My thoughts about your point are:
Any other quarian tiny fleet would be endangered too, because the geth probably would strike back. And i'm thinking of all geth in the galaxy. Maybe the remaining true-geth would unite with the heretics just to make sure, there will be no quarian threat anymore.
Citadel Space and the Terminus systems aren't a threat to the geth. They leave them alone and the geth leave them alone.
The quarians are indeed the main threat, so what do you think the geth will do when a quarian fleet attacks the them? Doesn't matter if it would be a small fleet of extremists or the entire fleet. The quarians would lose any way.

Keep in mind, that the geth will know about the experiments because of Legion.
Legion is not stupid. He´s aware of the creators' plans. Since he promised Tali not to send any crucial data, he still knows it. In case of a seperation of the extremists from the migrant fleet, even he would send the data so they can counter the hack.

I would like to have an united fleet with a stable government with dark secrets than a bunch of rogue fleets that may jeopardize my mission against the reapers. (As i said, i would like it to be a renegade option instead of paragon, just my opinion).
Keep in mind that we dont know how far Raels research was advanced. Since he got killed, he wasnt successful at all (he and his ship is dead). So any possibility of quarians attacking the geth with the new weapon before the arrival of the reapers is simply not existent.

One tiny question in this matter: How long does it take for the reapers to invade our galaxy without the mass relays?

Modifié par hosch, 07 janvier 2011 - 11:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...
And this is while ignoring the little miniscule, minor, insignificant fact that the research is at present untested, unsound and basically incomplete.  You continue to ignore the all important fact that: it's not finished, in fact far from it.  Rael is dead, his team is dead, meaning fundementally the research didn't work.  They didn't hack the Geth, they have not yet discovered the secret to their anti-hacking techniques or else we wouldn't even be having this type of discussion. 

It isn't untested: tests were ongoing, and showing results. It isn't complete, of course, but they were proving theory possible. It isn't completed, but that isn't the same as untested or unfounded, or even that assuming it can work is a wild, weak assumption.

No one is suggesting the Quarians attack today with an unfinished product, nor is anyone leaving the fleet for that purpose. That's not even put forth in the game itself. The point is to continue the research, finish it (with tests to prove it works, of course), and then fight relying on it.

There's absolutely no reason to argue that the Quarians will need or want to bet an attack on an untested product.

The potential of this yet again, unfinished, unsound research which will take a good amount of time for Daro'Xen to complete, using sound logic and foresight.  Do you honestly believe that even in the ME universe that this kind of research will pop up and be completed overnight?  What with Daro having to locate enough able minded and willing Quarians capable of matching the group that was working with Rael.  Obviously shewasn't in on Rael's work, so now has to get up to speed, get a team together, and somehow research and perfect a weapon that allows them to permanently bypass the Geth's anti-hacking technique.  Yeah, that will
really happen overnight.

It doesn't need to happen overnight. No one is positing that it will happen overnight.

It can happen soon, however, and before the Reapers arrive. (And yes, the ME universe has a record of unseemly fast development progression.)

But let's say, yeah, they magically managed to compile, in short order, a weapon that affords them some control over the Geth.  How much or how little of course being up for debate as well since, you know, the research is theoretical and completely untested in a combat scenario without the researchers involved being killed.  (Oh and nevermind the fact that using untested tech in a wartime scenario is tactically unsound in and of itself; I've never had to do it, thank God.)  

Yes, let's ignore all that since it really isn't relevant to the argument of a developed, tested weapon being deployed.

The Quarians have 17 million left.  That's the estimated entirety of their race; their entire race numbers 17 million.  Of that there are only enough military to service a hundred or so ships.

Source?

 A military ship is what you make of it. Quantity has a quality all of its own. You slap guns on a freighter, it can do damage, and it can kill. It doesn't even need to be fully manned.

  And let's keep in mind, that this so called military is actually more like a police force for their civilian ship population.  Now of that population maybe half join the militant side, again being generous.  The Heretics alone have  2.4 million mobile platforms sitting at their main base.  That's just the Heretics.  Pretty sure the Quarians, even with Legions revelations, won't care or distinguish between the two.  So even with their completely theoretical untested weapon, they are still vastly outnumbered, outgunned and completely outmatched.  Their attack undoubtedly fails.

The number of platforms sitting around on the ground is irrelevant if the Quarians fight from orbit, where the number of ground troops doesn't matter.

And this technology isn't purely theoritical, it is in development, and if it works a lot more of that would be irrelevant, and if it doesn't work even more of it is irrelevant because the Quarians don't need to attack regardless, and can spend more time completing it.

So the militants attack and fail, then who in the world will be left to stand against the Geth or the Reapers?  Even assuming the Geth choose not to retaliate, what's left of the Migrant Fleet will be Koris and his lot.  What good will they be in assisting Shepard? 

Why would the Migrant fleet that was uninvolved sit around to be targetted?

And, again, weakening the Geth is good against the Reapers overall capabilities (weakening their auxileries), and Quarian ships will be more effective against the Geth than the Reapers themselves. Targetting the Reaper's allies is assisting Shepard against the Reapers.

If you honestly believe that's going to happen in anywhere close enough time for them to combat the Reaper threat, with everything else on top of that, then this exchange is unfortunately over.  Bottom line, there is no tactical military advantage to presenting that data to the Migrant Fleet.  Logic, reasoning, insight and foresight, however  theoretical it may be, clearly supports this.  You want to make a politcal or moral cased towards it, there's plenty to argue for doing so. 

No military mind worth the salt of the galaxy would present that data with the belief that it would be tactically advantageous to do so.

This argument of yours really begs the question: are you a military mind?

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]hosch wrote...

And here comes the almighty assumption.[/quote]In the lack of perfect knowledge of the future, all predictions by necessity rest on assumptions. There are valid assumptions and wild assumptions, supported assumptions and unsupported ones. You can estimate an unknown.

[quote]
Maybe Tali is the tip on the scale to pacify the fleet and go for peace with the geth. Maybe she goes nuts about her fathers death and go for war? Who knows?[/quote]What is the reason to believe she is?

[quote]
What i know is that Tali changed her mind throughout ME1-ME2 to be more thoughtful with the geth.
Killing geth in ME1 was fun for her, in ME2 she dont like her fathers experiments at all and has deep thoughts about Legions mission.[/quote]So what?

[quote]
Keep in mind, that she mentioned she might be her fathers replacement in the admirality board![/quote]Which point is this to make or oppose?

[quote]
Maybe Raels research wasn't successful at all, who knows?[/quote]Rael and his team clearly thought so, and so does Admiral Xen. That gives significantly more weight to the 'it can work' than 'it will not.'
[quote]
Any other quarian tiny fleet would be endangered too, because the geth probably would strike back. And i'm thinking of all geth in the galaxy. Maybe the remaining true-geth would unite with the heretics just to make sure, there will be no quarian threat anymore.[/quote]If the Quarians attack without a working Rael-research weapon, sure.

What suggests they are about to do that?

[quote]
Citadel Space and the Terminus systems aren't a threat to the geth. They leave them alone and the geth leave them alone.[/quote]The Geth attacked Citadel Space just two years ago.

[quote]
The quarians are indeed the main threat, so what do you think the geth will do when a quarian fleet attacks the them? Doesn't matter if it would be a small fleet of extremists or the entire fleet. The quarians would lose any way.
[/quote]The main fleet can go to Geth no-go zones. There's no reason they have to stay, or be, where the Geth can reach them.

[quote]
Keep in mind, that the geth will know about the experiments because of Legion.[/quote]If you have Legion, and didn't stop him from transmitting the data.
[quote]
Legion is not stupid. He´s aware of the creators' plans. Since he promised Tali not to send any crucial data, he still knows it. In case of a seperation of the extremists from the migrant fleet, even he would send the data so they can counter the hack.[/quote]Why are you now assuming that a counter is possible to derive at all? There are plenty of things that can't be blocked.
[quote]
I would like to have an united fleet with a stable government with dark secrets than a bunch of rogue fleets that may jeopardize my mission against the reapers. (As i said, i would like it to be a renegade option instead of paragon, just my opinion).[/quote]Well, luckily there aren't loads of rogue fleets flying around, and no one, metagaming or not, has said that there will be to my knowledge. It certainly isn't in the game, where the consequence is that the fleet as a whole stays together, with colonizers leaving in one group and some ships (not fleets) leave to develop Rael's data further.

[quote]
Keep in mind that we dont know how far Raels research was advanced. Since he got killed, he wasnt successful at all (he and his ship is dead). So any possibility of quarians attacking the geth with the new weapon before the arrival of the reapers is simply not existent.[/quote]He was at a point of getting ready to test at Morning War levels. Since the point of Geth intelligence no-return was at Morning War levels, that means he was getting to the point of fully-operational geth.

[Konfined]

Damn double post.  See below.

Modifié par Konfined, 08 janvier 2011 - 12:03 .

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It isn't untested: tests were ongoing, and showing results. It isn't complete, of course, but they were
proving theory possible. It isn't completed, but that isn't the same as
untested or unfounded, or even that assuming it can work is a wild, weak
assumption.

No one is suggesting the Quarians attack today with
an unfinished product, nor is anyone leaving the fleet for that purpose.
That's not even put forth in the game itself. The point is to continue
the research, finish it (with tests to prove it works, of course), and then fight relying on it.

There's absolutely no reason to argue that the Quarians will need or want to bet an attack on an untested product.

It's not untested, you're right.  The people who tested it, are now dead.  A fact I continue to bring up and you continue to ignore in favor of speculative assumption.  

It doesn't need to happen overnight. No one is positing that it will happen overnight.

It
can happen soon, however, and before the Reapers arrive. (And yes, the
ME universe has a record of unseemly fast development progression.)

And what information are you basing this on?  Where is YOUR source? The only info we have on the research is that Rael was making a breakthrough on systemic viral attacks on the Geth's neural network.  A breakthrough does not a weapon make.  I have to remind you that that breakthrough resulted in the researchers, Rael included, being killed by the Geth they tested their weapon on.  Show me an example of such an unprecedented experiment being developed and deployed in any reasonable time frame.  In game even.  Most weapons research projects take years.  Computer AI research for military applications is still being worked on years after numerous breakthroughs.

Yes, let's ignore all that since it really isn't relevant to the argument of a developed, tested weapon being deployed.

It is relevant, because you're argument is based on speculation, assumption and metagaming.  You have no data to support your comments.The Quarians have 17 million left.  That's the estimated entirety of their race; their entire race numbers 17 million.  Of that there are only enough military to service a hundred or so ships.

Source?

Mass Effect wiki based on codex information aquired ingame: http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/Quarian.  The Migrant Fleet's population is roughly 17 million.  We all know that merely a fraction of them are martial.  Any argument to the contrary is just asinine.

A military ship is what you make of it. Quantity has a quality all of its own. You slap guns on a freighter, it can do damage, and it can kill. It doesn't even need to be fully manned.

And this, combined with your little jab at my military acumen, is laughable.  Clear proof you have absolutely little knowledge on the points you are arguing on.  I don't even really have to go into much detail beyond pointing out a typical exchange between any country's military vessel versus your average pirate skiff.  Or hell, the Destiny Ascension and the stationed Turian, Alliance Fleet versus Sovereign and the Geth Fleet.  Yeah, you can take any freighter put some guns on it and go roughshod against a highly advanced machine and AI based species.  I can't even believe you made this statement, you were doing so well up to this point.

The number of platforms sitting around on the ground is irrelevant if the Quarians fight from orbit, where the number of ground troops doesn't matter.

And this technology isn't purely theoritical, it is in development, and if it works a lot more of that would be irrelevant, and if it doesn't work even more of it is irrelevant because the Quarians don't need to attack regardless, and can
spend more time completing it.

And again, the technology IS purely theoretical, it is not in development, the people who were working on it are all dead.  Unless you can point me directly to the entry that states that Daro'Xen has all, not some, ALL of Rael's research, has perfected it, tested it, and will be more than capable of deploying it within ME3's timeline, then all you've done is speculate, assume, and metagame.

Why would the Migrant fleet that was uninvolved sit around to be targetted?

And, again, weakening the Geth is good against the Reapers overall capabilities (weakening their auxileries), and Quarian ships will be more effective against the Geth than the Reapers themselves. Targetting the Reaper's allies is assisting Shepard against the Reapers.

More of the same thing you've been saying, only with this new added  twist that apparently the ships which from Tali's mouth are often just found derelict and in disrepair apparently can take on the quantifiably unknown yet unarguably more highly advanced Geth Fleet.  The 100 or so ships of the Quarian civilian police force will be able to take on the 5,000-10,000 or so ships from the highly advanced Geth Fleet; once again taken from the Wiki who in turn got their information from ingame data.

This argument of yours really begs the question: are you a military mind?

I think any layperson who wandered into this thread would know.  Hint: it obviously isn't you.  Another hint: Military commanders don't base crucial tactical decisions on wild speculation, assumption, and baseless
unsupported theory.  Metagaming doesn't work in the real world.

Modifié par Konfined, 08 janvier 2011 - 01:06 .

[hosch]

[quote]Maybe Tali is the tip on the scale to pacify the fleet and go for peace with the geth. Maybe she goes nuts about her fathers death and go for war? Who knows?
[quote]What is the reason to believe she is?[/quote][/quote]
Her possible promotion to the admirality board goddammit, just read my posts in context not only lone phrases.


[quote]
What i know is that Tali changed her mind throughout ME1-ME2 to be more thoughtful with the geth.
Killing geth in ME1 was fun for her, in ME2 she dont like her fathers experiments at all and has deep thoughts about Legions mission.[quote]So what?[/quote][/quote]
Look above.

[quote]
Keep in mind, that she mentioned she might be her fathers replacement in the admirality board![quote]Which point is this to make or oppose?[/quote][/quote]
And again: look above.

[quote]
Maybe Raels research wasn't successful at all, who knows?[quote]Rael and his team clearly thought so, and so does Admiral Xen. That gives significantly more weight to the 'it can work' than 'it will not.'
[/quote][/quote]
No it doesn't. Since Rael's lab is a ghost ship, he was not successful at all and far away from "it can work".
Even if someone thinks it could work, doesn't mean it will work.

[quote]
Any other quarian tiny fleet would be endangered too, because the geth probably would strike back. And i'm thinking of all geth in the galaxy. Maybe the remaining true-geth would unite with the heretics just to make sure, there will be no quarian threat anymore.[quote]If the Quarians attack without a working Rael-research weapon, sure.
What suggests they are about to do that?[/quote][/quote]

Your assumption of a united fleet attacking the geth with a prototype-weapon and my knowledge of extremists beeing incredibly stupid.[/quote][/quote]

[quote]
Citadel Space and the Terminus systems aren't a threat to the geth. They leave them alone and the geth leave them alone.[quote]The Geth attacked Citadel Space just two years ago.[/quote][/quote]
Sorry, i was talking about the true-geth. Since the quarians don't care much about it.

[quote]
The quarians are indeed the main threat, so what do you think the geth will do when a quarian fleet attacks the them? Doesn't matter if it would be a small fleet of extremists or the entire fleet. The quarians would lose any way.
[quote]The main fleet can go to Geth no-go zones. There's no reason they have to stay, or be, where the Geth can reach them.[/quote][/quote]
The geth may track down the fleet and kill them all, since noone cares about the quarians.

[quote]
Keep in mind, that the geth will know about the experiments because of Legion.[quote]If you have Legion, and didn't stop him from transmitting the data.
[/quote][/quote]
The Answer to this is is right below:

[quote]
Legion is not stupid. He´s aware of the creators' plans. Since he promised Tali not to send any crucial data, he still knows it. In case of a seperation of the extremists from the migrant fleet, even he would send the data so they can counter the hack.[quote]Why are you now assuming that a counter is possible to derive at all? There are plenty of things that can't be blocked.[/quote][/quote]
Ehm, we are talking about an AI that thinks in lightspeed... If the quarians are able to continue Raels work overnight, why the hell an AI with its capabilities can't do it too?

[quote]
I would like to have an united fleet with a stable government with dark secrets than a bunch of rogue fleets that may jeopardize my mission against the reapers. (As i said, i would like it to be a renegade option instead of paragon, just my opinion).[quote]Well, luckily there aren't loads of rogue fleets flying around, and no one, metagaming or not, has said that there will be to my knowledge. It certainly isn't in the game, where the consequence is that the fleet as a whole stays together, with colonizers leaving in one group and some ships (not fleets) leave to develop Rael's data further.[/quote][/quote]
geez... just be honest with yourself... you answered it already in one of your posts. Migrant fleet torn apart -> extremists who continue Raels work and so on.
An united fleet would be more stable than many "independent" fleets. Thats what i said. I still believe in Talis involvment in the admirality board, so i think she'll make sure that Raels research wont be continued and/or forbid similar efforts for the sake of peace with the geth.

[quote]
Keep in mind that we dont know how far Raels research was advanced. Since he got killed, he wasnt successful at all (he and his ship is dead). So any possibility of quarians attacking the geth with the new weapon before the arrival of the reapers is simply not existent.[quote]He was at a point of getting ready to test at Morning War levels. Since the point of Geth intelligence no-return was at Morning War levels, that means he was getting to the point of fully-operational geth.[/quote][/quote]
You do know that one geth alone is as stupid as a varren, right?
How many active geth might have possibly been on the Alarei?
I dont rember fighting over a million geth there. so i dont think that around 100 active geth on the Alarai should be considered as a "Morning War level" field test.

Note to myself: i hate long posts...

Modifié par hosch, 08 janvier 2011 - 12:45 .

[TheNexus]

Eddo36 wrote...

Tali doesn't want her father to be known as a war criminal, and that's understandable. But despite Rael'Zorah's good intentions, he has done what he did (activated Geth in the Fleet to experiment), and what he has done costed Quarian lives and put the entire Migrant Fleet at risk. Should it be fair for other law-abiding Quarians that his actions were covered up so he can't be punished for his actions posthumously?

At the same time, the Quarians are losing their minds in space over not having a homeworld and are actually considering fighting the Geth, which has a population and military infinetely greater than the Quarians.

At least Rael'Zorah was looking for other ways around just attacking the Geth. Compared to some of the Quarian council, who believe a suicide war is the solution, Rael looks very sane.

[PTPR]

@Eddio On the subject of if revealing the evidence is right thing, I am on the fence. As for saying people should follow every law any government/authority makes, is (for lack of a better word) stupid. Just because it is the government does not make it morally right. Someone needs to read "A Letter from Birmingham Jail".



(Sorry if this is a few pages too late.)

[Eddo36]

So shush it up and the government will never learn to change for the better. And hide it from the people who's lives it affected. Namely everyone.

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...\\\\\\\\

I think any layperson who wandered into this thread would know.  Hint: it obviously isn't you.

Cue extreme case of irony.

  Another hint: Military commanders don't base crucial tactical decisions on wild speculation, assumption, and baseless
unsupported theory.  Metagaming doesn't work in the real world.

No, they just base it off of grounded speculations, risk assessments of unknowns, and what the MI guys tell them.

(Yeah, they have to assume a lot of things. They can't metagame, after all.)

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 janvier 2011 - 02:08 .

[In Exile]

Pacifien wrote...

You know, part of the reason why the fracturing of the Fleet doesn't much concern me is that, in my mind, the Fleet is already fractured and only working under the pretense of cohesion. This cohesion is to their benefit in regards to protecting themselves from piracy, but it has put them in a holding pattern for 300 years when it comes to deciding what their ultimate goal happens to be. I can imagine there are even some quarians who never want the Fleet to settle, either on a new colony or their homeworld. Kal'Reegar even mentions the idea of the value of a mobile society.

The fleet currently works toghether. Quarians are social pariahs - the fleet is often bribed to leave systems based on their sheer numbers, for fear they'd do who knows what in a particular system. If the fleet actually fragments, that would dramatically alter the situation for the quarians.

That's putting aside how their entire fleet structure might not work if they break apart. A ship might not be able to support itself; but a fleet might have the resources (in terms of procuring water and growing food) to support the quarian population.

You're ignoring logistics.

Anyway, as to why I bother to argue the point, I don't actually expect someone to suddenly feel the revelation of a fictional war crime is vital to their moral well-being. However, I do not like the idea that the entire decision is treated as clear cut. Much as the council decision, the collector base decision, the rewrite decision: if you're making one decision, you are sacrificing something. Everyone Wins is such a copout to me. Decisions that matter? No, just decisions that make you feel good inside. Which, given the game is played by many people for entertainment, is a viable way to develop one's game, but then don't ask me to consider it as having any honest depth.

It isn't clear cut. I absolutely agree with you. But it's important not to minimize the potential weight of the consequences. Dismissing the cost to the fleet is like waving away Ra'el's actions as 'operating on a toaster'.

Pacifien wrote...
Obviously, the extremists can't be
controlled because an admiral of the fleet managed to conduct
experiments without anyone knowing until the experiment blew up in his
face. When you reveal the evidence, Tali mentions that there are
quarians now talking about opening up peaceful negotiations with the
geth. Instead of the admirals glaring at each other waiting for one to
blink, there is now open discussion among the quarians that something
must be done. Bad timing considering the Reapers are out there? Who
knows.

And there are other quarians who will continue these experiments and aim to wage war against the geth. How will 'quarians' negotiate with the geth when we've just broken down the quarian government into factions?

Will the geth judge some quarians are A-OK while other qurians are ready to try to finish what they started 300 years ago?  

Pacifien wrote...
I do question the idea that sitting on the
evidence is the right thing to do, irregardless of how it affects Tali.
Just assume it's a sidequest and there is no squadmate that you need to
concern yourself. You have stumbled upon a volus who is doing weapons
testing on sapient beings, but to reveal his experiments could cause
chaos. Is revealing a war crime paramount no matter the consequence, or
are there situations when it is okay not to reveal war crimes?
Obviously, there is an argument to be made that there are times when war
crimes shouldn't be revealed. I just don't happen to agree.

It comes down to what moral framework you follow. If you think moral decisions have to be made independent of the consequences, then there is an argument for always revealing war crimes. If you take consequences into account, then there isn't. It's pretty simple.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If you want and believe in peace,
actual efforts will go forth. Even a guarded positive response from
Legion's geth can firm up support and rational for the peace faction,
and if the peace-faction can differentiate itself from the war-mongers, a
diplomatic breakthrough on their part can swing the entire balance of
power towards them. Rather than hem and haw and be obstructed by two
Admirals with more sinister ambitions in mind for the Geth, the Quarians
can actually start a peace process, from which a reunification of the
Quarians on better terms can occur once they prove their value. (And, if
not, the question of peace is settled once and for all, and power
swings back to the War faction by fact that hte Geth aren't interested.)

If you balkanize the quarians, there is no quarian government to negotiate anything.

Some quarians will pursue war against the geth.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Quarians don't balkanize into a million different nations, each with their own agenda. Most of the quarians don't even go anywhere.



Some ships (not fleets!) go off to study Rael's data. Some go to make peace overtures to the Geth. The biggest group to leave to goes goes to colonize a planet. Most stay with the fleet.



This is not a case of one group becoming thirty. This is one group remaining one main group, with two minor groups and one significant depature.

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cue extreme case of irony.

No, they just base it off of grounded speculations, risk assessments of unknowns, and what the MI guys tell them.

(Yeah, they have to assume a lot of things. They can't metagame, after all.)

You spend all that time googling military tactics and this is the best you've got?  You made a couple of interesting points:  grounded speculations, of which you provided none; unless you've got that Daro'Xen info I've been waiting on.  And by the way, MI does a lot of things, but they don't speculate, they don't assume, and they don't come off half-cocked.  What they do do, is gather detailed intelligence, formulate scenarios based on that intel,  postulate theories, manage logistics, develope strategies, come up with plans and then to eliminate as much room for error as they possibly can, they also perform: Risk assessment, now that's key so pay attention. 

Take a hundred or so poor quality Quarian ships, with a moderately trained military police force and a few Quarian Marines; most in good spirits, an equal number however with poor morale mind you due to the whole war vs. peace rift within the entire Migrant Fleet that was caused when you revealed one of their heroes in Rael'Zora to be a monster for their cautionary tales.  Grab them and this few hundred or so ships with your ragtag group of Quarians and split from what's left of the Quarian's 17 million population. 

No, forward operating base to speak of, no reenforcements, no ground support, no planet on which to shelter your wounded, supplies were already scant as it is what with the Quarian's couple-o-thousand ships already heavily regulating and rationing food and medical supplies.  Oh, and let's not forget you have no primary targets with which to hit, no idea of how to deploy your wildly theoretical weapon, no real idea where the Geth have based their own operations.  Nothing for your MI, that's military intelligence, to even formulate a strategy upon.  That's alright though because you have your all mighty yet completely theoretical super weapon which you tested on about 10-50 units of networked Geth.  Oh wait, my bad I forgot the researchers who actually tested that weapon, were killed during their testing.  Hey, play it on faith right?

So you take this splintered faction of moderately trained Quarians, you take your wildely theorectical weapon, in which it's creators were killed in it's research and development and was subsequently worked upon by someone without first hand knowledge, (still waiting for that data btw) and you intend to put them up against the thousands upon thousands of highly advanced Geth space craft in their home turf and start a fight. 

That's great, great, grrrreat military intelligence on display right there.  Show me the irony because I just can't see it; but maybe it's just me being bias.

Modifié par Konfined, 08 janvier 2011 - 02:53 .

[Hammertime80]

I was willing to cover up Tali's father's actions in order to assure she didn't get exiled and that I got her loyalty. Once I read the e-mail after the mission though, where it mentions how humanity could have benefitted, I facepalm'd. I want all the help I can get. The decisions I make I make keeping the future in mind. To me, it isn't about Tali. I mean, it was about her as far as recruiting her for the mission and whatnot goes, but the techonology humanity and the galaxy could have prospered from means much more to me than Tali.

[In Exile]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Quarians don't balkanize into a million different nations, each with their own agenda. Most of the quarians don't even go anywhere.

It doesn't matter. If they split into four, that dramatically affects what the quarins can do.

Some ships (not fleets!) go off to study Rael's data. Some go to make peace overtures to the Geth. The biggest group to leave to goes goes to colonize a planet. Most stay with the fleet.

Okay, so we have a break-away terrorist organization that is going off to make war with the geth. We have a breakaway group that tries to colonize a planet. We have a majority that keep the status quo, and we have a group that may or may not hit the heretics and get murdered.

This is not a case of one group becoming thirty. This is one group remaining one main group, with two minor groups and one significant depature.

And I'm sure the geth will react to quarian terrorism with hugs and kisses. How can the quarians, fragment and incapable of speaking with a single voice, negotiate any kind of peace?

[hosch]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Quarians don't balkanize into a million different nations, each with their own agenda. Most of the quarians don't even go anywhere.

Some ships (not fleets!) go off to study Rael's data. Some go to make peace overtures to the Geth. The biggest group to leave to goes goes to colonize a planet. Most stay with the fleet.

This is not a case of one group becoming thirty. This is one group remaining one main group, with two minor groups and one significant depature.

Millions of different nations? Come on, there are about 17 million living quarians in the whole galaxy!
Its already enough to let the quarians kill themselves, if they split up in 3 factions.
Just think about how the migrant fleet is organized and how they work. Stealing a ship is a capital crime.
No group can leave with few ships and do something on their own. Its impossible.
Read the wiki about quarian Liveships. They got only 3 Liveships in the flotilla and i doubt that any group want to leave the fleet without one. I doubt even more, the rest of the fleet will leave a Liveship to a seperatist group.
Even colonizing a planet doesn't take hours or a day. it's a logistical nightmare and thats what a seperatist group cant do on their own without a Liveship.

Eddo36 wrote...

So shush it up and the government will
never learn to change for the better. And hide it from the people who's
lives it affected. Namely everyone.

Exactly... know why?  Shepard is a Spectre, Spectres are for the dirty work the Citadel Council don't want to be involved in. Thats all. What does he care about the quarians? It's not his job to stick his nose into foreign politics and sabotage a government just as well it's not his job to decide what is right for the quarians as a race.

Modifié par hosch, 08 janvier 2011 - 08:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cue extreme case of irony.

No, they just base it off of grounded speculations, risk assessments of unknowns, and what the MI guys tell them.

(Yeah, they have to assume a lot of things. They can't metagame, after all.)

You spend all that time googling military tactics and this is the best you've got?

Nope. No googling.

Yes, I am in the military. That makes me a military mind by definition. I am not very high in the military. I make no claims of my superb and superior insight being involved in the military. But I have been trained, and have done well enough to warrant them putting me in. But I do not, and would not, claim that being in the military makes me correct. You?

I suppose you could be a captain or a sergeant with years of strategic experience, but statistically that's a bit unlikely both in terms of statistics and in terms of how little that sort of demographic tends to overrun with the Mass Effect crowd. They tend to be older, and less interested in waving their military expertise around. There are plenty more privates and corporals and butterball lieutenants on the internet, though, but I'd doubt anyone would consider them military experts even though they are indisputably military minds.

Regardless, 'military mind' is a meaningless fixation because if there's one thing history has shown, it's that military minds are just as capable of making screw ups in military matters as the rest of everyone. It's an appeal to an authority that ignores that the military is not a place in which every single person becomes a strategic or tactical military expert. Military people disagree for the same reasons anyone else does: different evaluations.

Appealing to one's military mind is a weak argument that bordering on tasteless. If you're right in a position, you don't become more correct because you were in the military. You're right because the positions and views you put forward are valid, based on grounded assumptions and facts, and correct... and this is irrelevant to whatever level of training you might have had, or not have. Pulling the military card is needless, and a fallacy appeal. On the other hand, if you're wrong, you're still wrong, and you've made the entire military community look like arrogant chumps, which is rather annoying to watch.

So please, whether you agree with me or not (and I'm not even bothering to continue the debate about the Migrant Fleet with you: we've simply gone back to hearing repeated initial positions shouted in louder terms), please. What you're doing, it ain't pretty for the rest of us.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 janvier 2011 - 12:37 .

[JJ Long]

Hammertime80 wrote...

I was willing to cover up Tali's father's actions in order to assure she didn't get exiled and that I got her loyalty. Once I read the e-mail after the mission though, where it mentions how humanity could have benefitted, I facepalm'd. I want all the help I can get. The decisions I make I make keeping the future in mind. To me, it isn't about Tali. I mean, it was about her as far as recruiting her for the mission and whatnot goes, but the techonology humanity and the galaxy could have prospered from means much more to me than Tali.

I think no matter which choice you take there will be problems within the Quarian people in ME3.

If you don't reveal the data, I believe Xen will continue on her crusade.  If you do reveal the data, I believe that the Quarians will splinter and a war between them and the Geth will start.

Personally, I didn't reveal the data.  I believe that sometimes a lie can be better than the truth.  Rael played with fire and died for his actions.  All those who died with him played their own role in the experiments.  They didn't alert anyone when safety protocols were ignored, so it isn't like some great injustice to them if the data isn't revealed.  If anything it also implicates those who helped Rael and hurts their families too. 

I also think revealing what Rael was doing can create mistrust between the Quarian people and the Admirals, something that isn't needed at this time.  They can sort out their governmental issues after the major threats have been dealt with.

Tali's loyalty was also important to my character, not just for the mission but because she was a friend.  You can't betray someone like that who has so much trust in you.

I expect Xen to be my adversary when recruting the Quarians in ME3 and I am prepared deal with that.  Recruiting the Quarians in ME3 will not be a simple go and ask.  A problem will have to be resolved one way or the other and I see dealing Xen as the lesser of the evils over a splintered fleet at war with the Geth.

[thegreateski]

It doesn't matter if it's the right thing to do. You went on that mission in the first place to secure Tali's loyalty. It's her call.

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Konfined wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cue extreme case of irony.

No, they just base it off of grounded speculations, risk assessments of unknowns, and what the MI guys tell them.

(Yeah, they have to assume a lot of things. They can't metagame, after all.)

You spend all that time googling military tactics and this is the best you've got?

Nope. No googling.

Yes, I am in the military. That makes me a military mind by definition. I am not very high in the military. I make no claims of my superb and superior insight being involved in the military. But I have been trained, and have done well enough to warrant them putting me in. But I do not, and would not, claim that being in the military makes me correct. You?

I suppose you could be a captain or a sergeant with years of strategic experience, but statistically that's a bit unlikely both in terms of statistics and in terms of how little that sort of demographic tends to overrun with the Mass Effect crowd. They tend to be older, and less interested in waving their military expertise around. There are plenty more privates and corporals and butterball lieutenants on the internet, though, but I'd doubt anyone would consider them military experts even though they are indisputably military minds.

Regardless, 'military mind' is a meaningless fixation because if there's one thing history has shown, it's that military minds are just as capable of making screw ups in military matters as the rest of everyone. It's an appeal to an authority that ignores that the military is not a place in which every single person becomes a strategic or tactical military expert. Military people disagree for the same reasons anyone else does: different evaluations.

Appealing to one's military mind is a weak argument that bordering on tasteless. If you're right in a position, you don't become more correct because you were in the military. You're right because the positions and views you put forward are valid, based on grounded assumptions and facts, and correct... and this is irrelevant to whatever level of training you might have had, or not have. Pulling the military card is needless, and a fallacy appeal. On the other hand, if you're wrong, you're still wrong, and you've made the entire military community look like arrogant chumps, which is rather annoying to watch.

So please, whether you agree with me or not (and I'm not even bothering to continue the debate about the Migrant Fleet with you: we've simply gone back to hearing repeated initial positions shouted in louder terms), please. What you're doing, it ain't pretty for the rest of us.

Is this internet speak for "I concede?"  And by the way, you have, yet again, made an assumption; That was meant to be a generalized statement that you have taken quite wildly out of context just so that you could make this long winded, self righteous, and asinine post.  And I thought this was a friendly debate, two differing opinions being voiced over the web.  It was pretty civil up until you took the following jab at me: 

This argument of yours really begs the question: are you a military mind?

You took the gloves off at that point, not I.  You decided to attack me instead of the argument; and you did so because you could no longer effectively attack my logic.  You are right, this exchange is over.

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...
Is this internet speak for "I concede?"  And by the way, you have, yet again, made an assumption; That was meant to be a generalized statement that you have taken quite wildly out of context just so that you could make this long winded, self righteous, and asinine post.  And I thought this was a friendly debate, two differing opinions being voiced over the web.  It was pretty civil up until you took the following jab at me:

This argument of yours really begs the question: are you a military mind?

You took the gloves off at that point, not I.  You decided to attack me instead of the argument; and you did so because you could no longer effectively attack my logic.  You are right, this exchange is over.

Funnily enough, I recall you jabbing that no military mind would think what I did, which was why I asked if you had a military mind. I mean, I can say I do, on account of being in the military, though as I said I feel it had nothing to do with the argument in and of itself, but I was wondering if you were another military person since you pulled the military card.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 08 janvier 2011 - 08:54 .

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Konfined wrote...
Is this internet speak for "I concede?"  And by the way, you have, yet again, made an assumption; That was meant to be a generalized statement that you have taken quite wildly out of context just so that you could make this long winded, self righteous, and asinine post.  And I thought this was a friendly debate, two differing opinions being voiced over the web.  It was pretty civil up until you took the following jab at me:

This argument of yours really begs the question: are you a military mind?

You took the gloves off at that point, not I.  You decided to attack me instead of the argument; and you did so because you could no longer effectively attack my logic.  You are right, this exchange is over.

Funnily enough, I recall you jabbing that no military mind would think what I did, which was why I asked if you had a military mind. I mean, I can say I do, on account of being in the military, though as I said I feel it had nothing to do with the argument in and of itself, but I was wondering if you were another military person since you pulled the military card.

So you took that as a jab at you personally?  Hmm.  I guess I didn't think that you would assume that I had intended to pull the military card and wave it in your face.  I figured that since, at the time, the main crux of the argument between us had become primarily about military tactics, and whether or not there was a military advantage to be had, that that statement would effectively drive the point home.  Lack of foresight on my part I guess.  This changes nothing, however.  All my thoughts and points remain the same.

Modifié par Konfined, 08 janvier 2011 - 09:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Konfined wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Konfined wrote...
Is this internet speak for "I concede?"  And by the way, you have, yet again, made an assumption; That was meant to be a generalized statement that you have taken quite wildly out of context just so that you could make this long winded, self righteous, and asinine post.  And I thought this was a friendly debate, two differing opinions being voiced over the web.  It was pretty civil up until you took the following jab at me:

This argument of yours really begs the question: are you a military mind?

You took the gloves off at that point, not I.  You decided to attack me instead of the argument; and you did so because you could no longer effectively attack my logic.  You are right, this exchange is over.

Funnily enough, I recall you jabbing that no military mind would think what I did, which was why I asked if you had a military mind. I mean, I can say I do, on account of being in the military, though as I said I feel it had nothing to do with the argument in and of itself, but I was wondering if you were another military person since you pulled the military card.

So you took that as a jab at you personally?  Hmm

Nope. I did respond to it, since it wouldn't be the first tactless act by a military person waving the uniform around.

.  I guess I didn't think that you would assume that I had intended to pull the military card and wave it in your face.  I figured that since, at the time, the main crux of the argument between us became primarily about military tactics, and whether or not there was a military advantage to be had, that statement would effectively drive the point home.  Lack of foresight on my part I guess.  Point still stands, however.

Not really. I might not be be inately justified to deem what is and is not correct, but I think we can both agree that you aren't qualified to say what a military mind can't believe in.

[Konfined]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Konfined wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Konfined wrote...
Is this internet speak for "I concede?"  And by the way, you have, yet again, made an assumption; That was meant to be a generalized statement that you have taken quite wildly out of context just so that you could make this long winded, self righteous, and asinine post.  And I thought this was a friendly debate, two differing opinions being voiced over the web.  It was pretty civil up until you took the following jab at me:

This argument of yours really begs the question: are you a military mind?

You took the gloves off at that point, not I.  You decided to attack me instead of the argument; and you did so because you could no longer effectively attack my logic.  You are right, this exchange is over.

Funnily enough, I recall you jabbing that no military mind would think what I did, which was why I asked if you had a military mind. I mean, I can say I do, on account of being in the military, though as I said I feel it had nothing to do with the argument in and of itself, but I was wondering if you were another military person since you pulled the military card.

So you took that as a jab at you personally?  Hmm

Nope. I did respond to it, since it wouldn't be the first tactless act by a military person waving the uniform around.

.  I guess I didn't think that you would assume that I had intended to pull the military card and wave it in your face.  I figured that since, at the time, the main crux of the argument between us became primarily about military tactics, and whether or not there was a military advantage to be had, that statement would effectively drive the point home.  Lack of foresight on my part I guess.  Point still stands, however.

Not really. I might not be be inately justified to deem what is and is not correct, but I think we can both agree that you aren't qualified to say what a military mind can't believe in.

Again, lack of foresight on my part, I freely admit.  What was meant as harmless hyperbole got taken wrong, and it blew up way out of proportion.  Interestingly enough, I was thinking just now that it may have been wiser to put tactical mind instead of military, but I wonder if you likely would have taken that out of proportion as well; based on that last comment in your post.  Or maybe the statement was just too open to misinterpretation.  Either way, what's done is done, no going back.  I willingly admit my error in having made that comment; not necessarily tactless considering the general context of our debate, but definitely uninsightful. 

Modifié par Konfined, 08 janvier 2011 - 09:30 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

He did experiments on machines a concept Xen was not apposed to she would’ve gladly given her consent for him to turn them on and shoot at them if they called her so just because he didn’t call he’s a monster? The program would’ve gone through if he just cleared it with the board sense Xen loves the idea of taking control of the geth and the other woman’s a puppet so that’s be two against 1. Worse crimes have gone unpunished and they get the data anyway along with the knowledge that Tali’s dad did do what he did and they still decided to uphold his record not retract his status in the community so in away that shows they approve on some level the actions he took.