352 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Oh for crying out loud, do you guys want to actually argue a topic here or just argue about how you're arguing?

[Eddo36]

didymos1120 wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

How other deals with the truth is their own thing. Hiding the truth is a breach of integrity.

Why yes, Mr. Gestapo guy!  I DO indeed have some Jews hiding in my attic!  And that's against the law, isn't it?

Depends if you find the ****s friend or enemy. If former yes. Otherwise enemy is enemy.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Eddo36 wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

1. Shepard is not under Quarian authority.

2. So if I lie to my friends all the time and betray them, but always tell the truth to my superiors, I have integrity?

3. Along with number 2, you said your "working definition" of integrity is "honesty." I would be dishonest towards my enemy by misleading them, therefore I would have no integrity. I seem to remember you arguing that honesty is the equivalence of justice.

1. The whole mission was under Quarian space. It affects them. Shepard is just an outsider.

2. They aren't your friends if you lie to them.

3. Enemy is enemy. Quarian government isn't.

1. It still does not change the fact that he does not answer to them.

2. Friends is an interchangeable word (coworkers, acquaintances, etc.). Your second point is simply misdirection as opposed to addressing the validity of my claim.

3. They are more my enemy than they are my friend. Also, your first statement on integrity did not make any such "enemy" exception.

EDIT: I wash my hands of this argument  (Matthew 7:6).

Modifié par Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams, 06 janvier 2011 - 09:12 .

[marshalleck]

didymos1120 wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

How other deals with the truth is their own thing. Hiding the truth is a breach of integrity.

Why yes, Mr. Gestapo guy!  I DO indeed have some Jews hiding in my attic!  And that's against the law, isn't it?

Ouch. Harsh, but fair. 

[snfonseka]

Eddo36 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

I also consider condeming one's entire life for such a mistake is unjust. That is her father. He has done more good for the fleet ans her then bad. Condeming his entire life for one mistake is unjust. I never lie to the council,just let them make their own decision based on the facts they have. That is your justice.

Theres what you know. and what you can prove. This is your justice,therefor justice was served at Tali's trail.

Condemning his life is up to the Quarians. The truth is said and nothing false stated. As I said, what they do with the truth is up to them. They will be the ones unjust. Just the truth be told, that is my justice.

It’s your justice but that doesn’t mean others’ actions are wrong in this matter. Some of us believe that telling the truth at what ever the cost is important and some believe that taking care of a friends’ need is important than telling the truth.

Even if friend's need is unjust.

Justice is a variable, different view points/ different opinions. Ones justice is others not. Ones hero is others villain. 

Basically we all are acting upon our feeling that says “this is the best thing to do”, so we all do different kind of things to achieve our goals because we think that is the best thing to do or in other words we justify your own actions.

[marshalleck]

Eddo36 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

How other deals with the truth is their own thing. Hiding the truth is a breach of integrity.

Why yes, Mr. Gestapo guy!  I DO indeed have some Jews hiding in my attic!  And that's against the law, isn't it?

Depends if you find the ****s friend or enemy. If former yes. Otherwise enemy is enemy.

Shepard is more friend of Tali than friend of Admiralty Board, yes? Then by your own statements in this thread, it is permissible for Shepard to act on her behalf. 

[Eddo36]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

1. Shepard is not under Quarian authority.

2. So if I lie to my friends all the time and betray them, but always tell the truth to my superiors, I have integrity?

3. Along with number 2, you said your "working definition" of integrity is "honesty." I would be dishonest towards my enemy by misleading them, therefore I would have no integrity. I seem to remember you arguing that honesty is the equivalence of justice.

1. The whole mission was under Quarian space. It affects them. Shepard is just an outsider.

2. They aren't your friends if you lie to them.

3. Enemy is enemy. Quarian government isn't.

1. It still does not change the fact that he does not answer to them.

2. Friends is an interchangeable word (coworkers, acquaintances, etc.). Your second point is simply misdirection as opposed to addressing the validity of my claim.

3. They are more my enemy than they are my friend. Also, your first statement on integrity did not make any such "enemy" exception.

1. Say you visit Singapore. They have a law against chewing gum. If you are a gum chewer, will you chew gum there anyways? If you aren't a gum chewer, insert similar rule that affects you.

2. Friends are people you don't lie to or do anything harmful against.

3. They are the law of their land and you come to their space. They are not your enemy.

And I apologize for not clarifying that "integrity" only applies to the official authority of the place.

[Pacifien]

I don't think that gum chewing laws equate to laws against humanity. Some people have that kind of sliding scale on whether they're going to care about one law or another depending on, you know, scope.

[slxiii]

The truth is that the ends justify the means. Being honest is a good course of action, however the result of honesty in this case is not favorable, and therefore not advisable.

[Eddo36]

marshalleck wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

How other deals with the truth is their own thing. Hiding the truth is a breach of integrity.

Why yes, Mr. Gestapo guy!  I DO indeed have some Jews hiding in my attic!  And that's against the law, isn't it?

Depends if you find the ****s friend or enemy. If former yes. Otherwise enemy is enemy.

Shepard is more friend of Tali than friend of Admiralty Board, yes? Then by your own statements in this thread, it is permissible for Shepard to act on her behalf. 

By friend, I mean "not enemy".

Tali is a friend (my definition of), but the Admiralty Board is also. At least they aren't enemy. You have no right to lie about something to them, for they are not your enemy.

[Eddo36]

Pacifien wrote...

I don't think that gum chewing laws equate to laws against humanity. Some people have that kind of sliding scale on whether they're going to care about one law or another depending on, you know, scope.

I was mainly stating that if you go to someone's place, will you follow that someone's rules?

[snfonseka]

Pacifien wrote...

snfonseka wrote...
My Shep didn't see any good that can achieve by revealing the truth. So he decided that the best thing is to help his friend to achieve her goals.

I know. Such wasted chances to create an actual moral dilemma in the game. If Rael'Zorah had been found alive, for instance.

That would be VERY interesting! I mentioned several times in this forum that we need some choices that can test our limits. Too bad BW doesn’t like the idea.

[CROAT_56]

Shepard is a Spectre he is the authority where ever he is so if he believes witholding evidence from the trial is just then it is just. The only authority Shepard has to follow is the Councilors and evan then they do not care how you do something as long as it gets done.



As for not every shepard is a Spectre just because Shepard is not reinstated does not mean Spepards not a Spectre, Shepard is just not active in council databases.

[Nightwriter]

Pacifien wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I will save my justice for bad men who commit bad deeds, not good people who make mistakes.

Unfortunately, because you miss the opportunity to inform the public about what their government is doing behind their back, you provide an opportunity for an arguably bad person to continue making that mistake.

Which I can understand someone doing, because perhaps your Shepard doesn't like to rock the boat unless it serves his needs against the Reapers. And how could he foresee that someone would find the data anyway and proceed to continue the secret experiments. Or to invoke the spirit of Shand, those experiments could prove beneficial to the quarian people whether they like it or not.

I mean, there's a lot of scenarios to consider and the simplest one is to do what your friend wants. I can understand friendship loyalty or serving the needs of your squad so they can stay focused on the larger picture. That really doesn't cover the issue of whether it's right, though. Selfishly right perhaps.

I always tell Rael the truth, however, which is a nice way of saving Rael's name and also letting the right people know what really happened.

[Eddo36]

snfonseka wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

I also consider condeming one's entire life for such a mistake is unjust. That is her father. He has done more good for the fleet ans her then bad. Condeming his entire life for one mistake is unjust. I never lie to the council,just let them make their own decision based on the facts they have. That is your justice.

Theres what you know. and what you can prove. This is your justice,therefor justice was served at Tali's trail.

Condemning his life is up to the Quarians. The truth is said and nothing false stated. As I said, what they do with the truth is up to them. They will be the ones unjust. Just the truth be told, that is my justice.

It’s your justice but that doesn’t mean others’ actions are wrong in this matter. Some of us believe that telling the truth at what ever the cost is important and some believe that taking care of a friends’ need is important than telling the truth.

Even if friend's need is unjust.

Justice is a variable, different view points/ different opinions. Ones justice is others not. Ones hero is others villain. 

Basically we all are acting upon our feeling that says “this is the best thing to do”, so we all do different kind of things to achieve our goals because we think that is the best thing to do or in other words we justify your own actions.

Not variable in this case. Hiding the truth from the official authority. Pretty black and white.

[Eddo36]

CROAT_56 wrote...

Shepard is a Spectre he is the authority where ever he is so if he believes witholding evidence from the trial is just then it is just. The only authority Shepard has to follow is the Councilors and evan then they do not care how you do something as long as it gets done.

As for not every shepard is a Spectre just because Shepard is not reinstated does not mean Spepards not a Spectre, Shepard is just not active in council databases.

Was Migrant Fleet in Council Space, or Terminus System?

[slxiii]

Eddo36 wrote...
2. Friends are people you don't lie to or do anything harmful against.

And here is the paradox.
You can....
1. Lie.
2. Tell the truth, doing harm to tali's name, reputation, feelings etc.

[Nightwriter]

Eddo36 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I will save my justice for bad men who commit bad deeds, not good people who make mistakes.

As for me having no right to challenge quarian law, every time I encounter a situation involving an alien government, I think:

- Is this government right?
- Is obeying it wise?
- Are their laws just?
- Are they being executed justly?

In this case the answers were: No, no, yes, and no.

- Is it my right to judge them?

It is always your right to judge governments.

[Pacifien]

Nightwriter wrote...
I always tell Rael the truth, however, which is a nice way of saving Rael's name and also letting the right people know what really happened.

You mean Han'Gerrol, the admiral that Rael specifically mentions him wanting you to tell about the experiments? Not to mention being a good friend who has every reason to overlook Rael's mistake as you have?

I don't see anything coming of that really. I would have told Qwib Qwib.

[Eddo36]

slxiii wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...
2. Friends are people you don't lie to or do anything harmful against.

And here is the paradox.
You can....
1. Lie.
2. Tell the truth, doing harm to tali's name, reputation, feelings etc.

No harm against Tali but her unjust feelings.

[Scrith]

Technically, i didn't lie. I just refused to tell them the truth.

[Eddo36]

Nightwriter wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I will save my justice for bad men who commit bad deeds, not good people who make mistakes.

As for me having no right to challenge quarian law, every time I encounter a situation involving an alien government, I think:

- Is this government right?
- Is obeying it wise?
- Are their laws just?
- Are they being executed justly?

In this case the answers were: No, no, yes, and no.

- Is it my right to judge them?

It is always your right to judge governments.

Judging foreign government one thing, acting on it in their jurisdiction another.

[Eddo36]

Scrith wrote...

Technically, i didn't lie. I just refused to tell them the truth.

You did lie saying you found no evidence. And covering up.

Modifié par Eddo36, 06 janvier 2011 - 09:26 .

[Arhka]

Pacifien wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I always tell Rael the truth, however, which is a nice way of saving Rael's name and also letting the right people know what really happened.

You mean Han'Gerrol, the admiral that Rael specifically mentions him wanting you to tell about the experiments? Not to mention being a good friend who has every reason to overlook Rael's mistake as you have?

I don't see anything coming of that really. I would have told Qwib Qwib.

Qwib-Qwib would've thrown a political ****storm. Either way he still feels it wrong, and would still defame Rael. Then from that it would be balkanization, as one force will probably create another force, making fragments in the fleet.

[didymos1120]

We should just ask Samara what she thinks.  Of course, it would probably involve killing half the Migrant Fleet.