352 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Actually I thought about this and find myself revealing the truth more often now. Tali hates me for it but she still lives ad honestly it's something that in my view needs to be out in the open. Tali may hate Shepard for it for years to come but Shepard felt that it was the right decision.

[Pacifien]

Nightwriter wrote...
I suppose because I want someone there who could at least potentially act against Xen if she tries to use Rael's research, which we know she will. I don't want Xen to be the only one who knows the truth.

Considering Rael wanted Han'Gerrol to know, I don't think the fact that both he and Xen now know the truth really curbs her enthusiasm to pursue the experiments again.

Nightwriter wrote...
Really, if there was a way to reveal the truth without Rael becoming an absolute disgraced monster in the eyes of the people, I'd reveal the truth. For the people to say "okay Rael made a serious mistake, not cool" is good. For them to say "he is the worst criminal in quarian history and his name shall live on in disgrace forever" is a bit much.

Well, everyone wants their cake and eat it, too, but sometimes you gotta make the tough calls. In any case, perhaps Tali was being a bit dramatic in an effort to make her case. Perhaps Rael isn't considered the worst criminal in all of quarian history, just one who is used as an example to children about how their war with the geth does not make it cool to experiment on sapient beings so you can cut corners and get your homeworld back sooner.

Oh, but the geth aren't sapient the way we are, so it's not as bad. I get that.

[Eddo36]

marshalleck wrote...

But regardless you had to understand the context and implication of the question in order to answer it. Why would someone who views an arguably corrupt and immoral state as a legitimate authority, being surreptitiously acting against its interests in the first place?

All I did was miss gypsy. How was I supposed to know that that person viewed that government as corrupt? It had a lot of supporters back in its day.

If he viewed it as corrupt, then it's an enemy. Not bound to integrity to it.

Shepard has no right to act on his probably view Quarian government as corrupt being an outsider in their turf.

But I think I'm going to sleep. Am making many typos.

Modifié par Eddo36, 06 janvier 2011 - 09:54 .

[marshalleck]

Eddo36 wrote...

Shepard has no right to to action on his probably view Quarian government as corrupt being an outsider in their turf.

Shepard has every right if you talk to the Admiralty and they all admit that Tali is a political football, not a criminal. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 janvier 2011 - 09:55 .

[Pacifien]

CROAT_56 wrote...
They say multiple times that theyre in the terminus which doest follow council law so they can have red sand, indentured servitude, and other relaxed laws. Just because they are not a council race doesnt mean they dont have to follow the rules when ther fleet is in or near council space. Thats like saying a batarian flagged ship can capture slaves in council space because there not a counil race.

They say multiple times they're a gateway to the Terminus systems, which is why they relax their laws in an effort to compete with Terminus worlds who are under no obligation to follow any council law. Illium itself, however, is in council space.

As for the Migrant Fleet, I imagine the quarians respect council law while in their space, but that doesn't mean they're obligated to do so because the Council made it clear they don't want them.

I also suspect there are batarian flagged ships capturing slaves in council space all the time. Mindoir?

Modifié par Pacifien, 06 janvier 2011 - 09:55 .

[Eddo36]

marshalleck wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Shepard has no right to to action on his probably view Quarian government as corrupt being an outsider in their turf.

Shepard has every reason if you talk to the Admiralty and they all admit that Tali is a political football, not a criminal. 

Truth won't make it hurt. How they deal with it may, but it's up to them.

[marshalleck]

Eddo36 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Shepard has no right to to action on his probably view Quarian government as corrupt being an outsider in their turf.

Shepard has every reason if you talk to the Admiralty and they all admit that Tali is a political football, not a criminal. 

Truth won't make it hurt. How they deal with it may, but it's up to them.

Dodge.

[Eddo36]

Wasn't, just getting back on main point.

[marshalleck]

Eddo36 wrote...

Wasn't, just getting back on main point.

More like ignoring a perfectly valid response. 

[didymos1120]

Pacifien wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
I suppose because I want someone there who could at least potentially act against Xen if she tries to use Rael's research, which we know she will. I don't want Xen to be the only one who knows the truth.

Considering Rael wanted Han'Gerrol to know, I don't think the fact that both he and Xen now know the truth really curbs her enthusiasm to pursue the experiments again.

This raises the obvious question of why he didn't just tell him ahead of time if he was so keen on Han knowing.  And Han's reaction to hearing about it gives you the answer:  because he did not like it one bit.

[didymos1120]

Ilium == Asari Noveria with a nice climate.

[Eddo36]

marshalleck wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Wasn't, just getting back on main point.

More like ignoring a perfectly valid response. 

I answered it. She's a political football, so what? Truth doesn't hurt it, I said.

[marshalleck]

Eddo36 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Eddo36 wrote...

Wasn't, just getting back on main point.

More like ignoring a perfectly valid response. 

I answered it. She's a political football, so what? Truth doesn't hurt it, I said.

To be used in a blatantly corrupt kangaroo court because the "authorities" deem it so? As I said, Lawful Stupid.

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 janvier 2011 - 10:01 .

[snfonseka]

Eddo36 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

May be for you but not for me. For me it is gray. For me revealing the truth doesn’t generate any positive outcomes. There is nothing good to gain from revealing the truth. So my Shep didn’t see any reason to comply with Talis’ request.

I've stated what there is to be gain near beginning of thread.

There is nothing to lose but Tali's unjust feelings.

I said, for "me".

[Eddo36]

marshalleck wrote...

To be used because the "authorities" deem it so? As I said, Lawful Stupid.

Where do you live? Any local laws around that you find stupid? Must be a few at least. Go start breaking all of them. Unlawful Stupid.

Modifié par Eddo36, 06 janvier 2011 - 10:02 .

[Pacifien]

didymos1120 wrote...
This raises the obvious question of why he didn't just tell him ahead of time if he was so keen on Han knowing.  And Han's reaction to hearing about it gives you the answer:  because he did not like it one bit.

I get the feeling that if Rael had gotten the results he wanted, that Han might not have liked what Rael did to get there, but he would have used whatever Rael had managed to devise against the geth anyway. Like how the Illusive Man says he doesn't approve of the methods used by some of his cells, but he wants their data anyway.

[marshalleck]

Eddo36 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

To be used because the "authorities" deem it so? As I said, Lawful Stupid.

Where do you live? Any local laws around that you find stupid? Must be a few at least. Go start breaking all of them. Unlawful Stupid.

Just so you're aware, "Lawful Stupid" is not a personal attack on you. http://tvtropes.org/...in/LawfulStupid

[Barquiel]

I always present the evidence.



I think Rael's experiments are not such a great idea and presenting the evidence to the public seems like the best way to stop them.

[CROAT_56]

Point taken but shep isnt quite lieing to them he just isn't telling the whole story.



On a side note coming from a country that suffered war crimes I do not condone them in any way but this argument is more grey then black and white due to the fact that Tali is one of Shepards closest friends and it's her family we are dealing with.

[Eddo36]

I know, I played Neverwinter Nights. But even if it was a personal attack, I'm smart enough to ignore. But civilty in this thread is good.

[Pacifien]

didymos1120 wrote...
Ilium == Asari Noveria with a nice climate.

Oddly enough, Noveria is described as not being in council space, but respecting spectre authority.

[marshalleck]

Eddo36 wrote...

I know, I played Neverwinter Nights. But even if it was a personal attack, I'm smart enough to ignore. But civilty in this thread is good.

Okay, glad to hear it. And yes, disobedience is a duty when laws are unjust. And I am not talking about trivialities such as wearing a seatbelt or following a speed limit. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 06 janvier 2011 - 10:09 .

[Nightwriter]

Since didy already answered the first part nicely...

Pacifien wrote...

Well, everyone wants their cake and eat it, too, but sometimes you gotta make the tough calls. In any case, perhaps Tali was being a bit dramatic in an effort to make her case. Perhaps Rael isn't considered the worst criminal in all of quarian history, just one who is used as an example to children about how their war with the geth does not make it cool to experiment on sapient beings so you can cut corners and get your homeworld back sooner.

Oh, but the geth aren't sapient the way we are, so it's not as bad. I get that.

Do you really think the quarian people have any love lost for the geth? Or that quarian children are taught to see the geth as anything other than monsters and boogeymen?

[Bourne Endeavor]

Coincidently, I had this exact debate with another individual on the Escapist website. He was rather adamantly in his belief covering up for Rael was absolutely appalling and people did so only because Tali is a beloved character and not for IC. Furthermore, he disliked it being cited a renegade choice. Admittedly, the guy had some decent points. Since it is rather long and handled in a quote by quote format. I shall provide links to our respective posts for those curious.

His initial post and my rebuttal
His rebuttal
Mine
Agree to disagree

Those links cover my entire opinion upon this subject. No need to retype it all. Yes I am being lazy.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 06 janvier 2011 - 10:15 .

[Alienmorph]

Present the proofs against Rael promises to have disastrous consequences on the quarians: it revelas the opinons of Admiralty about the geths, risking to cause a scism of the flottilla that will doom the entire race, and talking to the Admirals before go on the Alaraei the risk becames quite evident. Aside Tali's wishes hide the proofs is the best thing to do to keep her people united. It's like rewrite the heretic geths... I don't like it, but seems to be the best thing to do to have their help against reapers in ME3.