352 réponses à ce sujet

[implodinggoat]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Tali should not be allowed to make that decision because it is her trial and because Rael is her father.

She is irrevocably biased and not thinking straight. I'd argue that she shouldn't have been allowed on that ship at all, but they had to throw in that "prove your innocence by leading a suicide charge against the opposition" into the proceedings.

I disagree. I would argue that it is her decision entirely because it is her trial.

Clearly she is biased in a way which Shepard is not; but Shepard is acting as her defense and it is therefore his duty to fulfill his client's wishes, not to impose his own opinions upon her.

Shepard is not the judge in Tali's trial he is the defense.  Thus it is not his role to render judgement rather it is his role to represent Tali's interests which in this case means concealing the evidence and attempting to provide the best possible defense without benefiting from that evidence.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

I believe it is Shepard's duty to defend her.



Her wishes may hold some importance to meeting those ends, but I don't think it's Shepard's duty to sit there and let her cover up crimes that she herself says are sacred to her people. That could endanger her even more if word got out that she covered up Rael's crimes. It makes her just as guilty, and Shepard is trying to prove her innocence.

[Sidac]

Crimes are crimes and should be delt with whether she wants them to be brought to light or not. Well, I shared the info so I could Balkanize fleet. Then, told them to goto war.

Modifié par Sidac, 06 janvier 2011 - 05:11 .

[thatguy212]

I didn't cover up the scandal for tali, i didn't do it for her dad, i didn't do it to stop the quarian fleet from splitting up, i did it so i could yell at bunch of admirals and put them in their place

[didymos1120]

Sidac wrote...

Crimes are crimes and should be delt with whether she wants them to be brought to light or not. Well, I shared the info so I could Balkanize fleet. Then, told them to goto war.

Which was it?  You did it for justice, or just to be Commander Jerkass and take a shot at getting a bunch of people slaughtered for, what, the lulz?

Modifié par didymos1120, 06 janvier 2011 - 05:20 .

[Dean_the_Young]

implodinggoat wrote...

Hmm, you make some very good arguments Dean_the_Young.

Your argument quite effectively contradicts my own not by attempting to rebuff it along idealist grounds; but by weighing the good that revealing the evidence might produce for the Quarian people as a whole against the good that covering it up would do for a single individual namely Tali.

What can I say? I tend to avoid appeals to idealism, and prefer practicality.

That said, and only because I love to be contrarian even against myself-

Idealism does have a practicality of its own: namely, most everyone else acts by it, and expects you to act by it, and going against it too much can lead to social and personal troubles. It's a reason why even amoral people are generally law-abiding citizens: not because they have an idealization of the law, but because going against it troubles them, and maintaining it can benefit them.


And on yet another-

Tali, even as an individual, can be called far more important than the other hundreds or thousands of related victims of the Alarai, because unlike them she's an actor of galactic significance. Tali is not only on a mission that will not only shape the fate of more people than exist on the Migrant Fleet, but she is a close ally of Shepard, who is fighting a desperate enough struggle against the Reapers for the sake of all life. While Tali herself is just one person, the results of her action/disaction, of her state of mind in supporting Shepard, can shape the galaxy.

So **** everyone else who lost friends and family due to Rael's screw up. **** the orphan who lost his mother. **** the grieving widows and husbands. Tali's more important than them, and if keeping her happy means covering up needless crimes and blunders, so be it. [/Renegade rational for helping Tali]

But; Is it really Shepard's decision to make?

-snip-

Yes, on many levels. On a Quarian legal level (the role of the trial), on a Quarian cultural level (the expected role of a Captain on behalf of one's crew), on an admission on Tali's level (in which she gave Shepard the right by saying she would follow him regardless), on the level of a concerned friend/associate, on the level of a uninvolved bystander who is not emotionally biased, on the level of Shepard, galactic savior, putting other priorities first and letting them shape the course of the Trial.

[pprrff]

There are way too many cover-ups and conspiracies in ME universe, I felt it sort of liberating to blow the whole thing in the open for once. I sorta understand why covering up the experiment is the paragon thing to do, but I feel that telling the truth is at least neutral if not just as paragon. You are not doing it out of malice, you are just telling the truth.

While you can make a good argument that covering up will lead to a better outcome for everyone and is thus justified, you are taking the decision out of the quarian hands by lying to them.  Telling the truth on the other hand is completely unambigious morally, and pretty much abolves Shepard of any responsibility: it's their mess, their future and their decisions, Shepard is just a messenger.

Modifié par pprrff, 06 janvier 2011 - 05:50 .

[Zulu_DFA]

A Lawful Good Shepard ought present the evidence to the jury.. The meaning of punishement is to discourage others from repeating the mistakes of the punished, even if it's a posthumous punishement (just like posthumous awards are meant to encourage others to do heroic things). Therefore the Quarians have to know the truth.

[Elite Midget]

Why should the 'peasents' know the truth? Surely they would overreact to such a 'simple' matter that doesn't concern those 'below' the thinkings of their 'betters'. It would 'surely' cause 'unneeded' outcry amoungs the Quarian 'Peasents' when they should instead be nodding their heads and obeying what their 'betters' have determined as the 'correct' course to undertake. /sarcasm

[Sidac]

didymos1120 wrote...

Sidac wrote...

Crimes are crimes and should be delt with whether she wants them to be brought to light or not. Well, I shared the info so I could Balkanize fleet. Then, told them to goto war.

Which was it?  You did it for justice, or just to be Commander Jerkass and take a shot at getting a bunch of people slaughtered for, what, the lulz?

I thought a war crime should be brought to light whether a crew mate likes it or not. Now that im working on super goody-goody shep, instead of my gray area shep, I cant wait to see what the effects will be between having the quarians united and balkanized are. Every game is the same. Unite eleves, men, dwarves so they can go skipping in the flowers together. Its finally nice to see someone think of OTHER possibilities.

Modifié par Sidac, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:59 .

[Angel-Shinkiro]

I shall quote Zero on this one "would you care for Clovis who is dead or Euphemia who is alive?" So I did what Tali wanted to do because she is alive.

[Dean_the_Young]

You'd quote Lelouch as a moral authority? Really?

[Elite Midget]

Lelouch was the definition of a Maytre and a Renegade... He could have easily just settled down with one of his various love interest instead of changing he word, turning te world against him via a lie, an to sacrifice everything so that no one else was left to blame.

[didymos1120]

Sidac wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Sidac wrote...

Crimes are crimes and should be delt with whether she wants them to be brought to light or not. Well, I shared the info so I could Balkanize fleet. Then, told them to goto war.

Which was it?  You did it for justice, or just to be Commander Jerkass and take a shot at getting a bunch of people slaughtered for, what, the lulz?

I thought a war crime should be brought to light whether a crew mate likes it or not. Now that im working on super goody-goody shep, instead of my gray area shep, I cant wait to see what the effects will be between having the quarians united and balkanized are. Every game is the same. Unite eleves, men, dwarves so they can go skipping in the flowers together. Its finally nice to see someone think of OTHER possibilities.

Ah, I see: a "cover all the bases" thing.  Sorry, it just came off as "LOL. Quarians gonna die."

[Xeranx]

The one thing I wish you could do during that whole thing was honor her father's words to the letter. Rael said Han'Gerrel and Xan should know what was going on and we're only able to tell Han'Gerrel. The only way to let them both know is to bring it up against Tali's wishes. If you're trying to keep a group cohesive that's the last thing you want to do.

[Angel-Shinkiro]

Elite Midget wrote...

Lelouch was the definition of a Maytre and a Renegade... He could have easily just settled down with one of his various love interest instead of changing he word, turning te world against him via a lie, an to sacrifice everything so that no one else was left to blame.

That is true but then code geass wouldn't have been as epic.

[Angel-Shinkiro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You'd quote Lelouch as a moral authority? Really?

Yes. Yes I did.

[Xilizhra]

Rael is dead, and therefore irrelevant. Everyone else is dead and their families will be suffering no matter what I do. Therefore, I'll do what helps the living most and yell at the Admiralty until they back down.

[Dakim Dragco]

I can easily quote a wise vulcan named Spock here; "The needs of many outweight the needs of One"



Basicly, by holding back the information on Rael, you as shepard ensure that the chances for survival of the entire Galaxy are better. Nomather that Tali is but 1 person in a grand scene, she is in her own way of great importance to shepards mission. This mission goes beyond anything, including justice for these Quarians.



I believe in the spirit of Shepard either paragon or renegade, that he would choose to keep this information a secret for the betterment of the whole galaxy.

[Eddo36]

It just teaches Tali to be unlawful. That's all the good it accomplishes.

Rather bringing to light the true evidence to show the Quarians that security measures for their own laws are lax. May save Quarian lives in future. May save Migrant Fleet in future. (see Xen email)

Modifié par Eddo36, 06 janvier 2011 - 10:55 .

[Dakim Dragco]

Lets make a bit of a "Say if....."

Say, your a father, and your child does, by actions he/she didnt know would cause it, killed several men. Lets say that the penalty if found guilty is either death or banishment. As a father, would you withold information that could convict your son/daughter?

Maybe you say no since it is the just thing to do, to let justice be done. But most people i believe wil say yes, i withold it.

What happens here with tali is just like that. She is inocent of any crime, yet should her father be sentenced it will harm her name and honour too. She doesnt want her father disgraced because she loves him, its natural for her to ask this of shepard.

By reveiling the truth you not only do justice by condeming Rael, you also harm or convict Tali, who is inocent of any crime.

I am one to wish for justice, but my moral compas simply doesnt allow me to harm/hurt a personin that way had it been a real situation.

Thats my opinion of this moment, but as with personalities; their are a infinite number of them, so each person has his/her own way they will react.

(Do not take this as a attack on your belief, just making clear what motivates me in this case.)

Modifié par Dakim Dragco, 06 janvier 2011 - 11:27 .

[Eddo36]

Actually if you don't tell the truth about Rael, Tali gets convicted (without sufficient persuasion skills in arguing without any evidence- pretty dumb in any court) and exiled.

And your father knew the risks. He went against the rules purposely. And lives/resources were lost because of it.

And what other Quarians think of the truth is up to them. The truth is just stated.

Covering it up is solely so Tali feels good that her father's crimes are hidden from everyone who's lives are affected by what he did. Since he was an Admiral, that includes not only the families of the deceased, but the entire Migrant Fleet.

Modifié par Eddo36, 07 janvier 2011 - 12:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Elite Midget wrote...

Lelouch was the definition of a Maytre and a Renegade... He could have easily just settled down with one of his various love interest instead of changing he word, turning te world against him via a lie, an to sacrifice everything so that no one else was left to blame.

What he was at the very end, and what he was up until the end-game of the second season, were very different things. Lelouch in the first season was the opposite of self-sacrifice, or a martyr. He sacrificed anyone or anything else, and always did it with the intent to come out smelling like a rose. For nearly two seasons he engaged in a personal vendetta with the self-justification of being for the one person in the world who wanted absolutely none of it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 janvier 2011 - 12:16 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Angel-Shinkiro wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You'd quote Lelouch as a moral authority? Really?

Yes. Yes I did.

Do you realize how anti-morality Lelouch even was*?

About the one principal he stayed true to through the entire series was 'those who would shoot others should be prepared to be shot.' Everything else was up for claims, compromises, and outright refusal.


*Edit*

*As in, anti-moral systems. Lelouch, for all he ranted and railed against the Britanian Great Man system, implemented it in full with regards to his own behavior. Conventional morals were for conventional people, and he never let himself be compelled by the morals of other people.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 janvier 2011 - 12:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Dakim Dragco wrote...

What happens here with tali is just like that. She is inocent of any crime, yet should her father be sentenced it will harm her name and honour too. She doesnt want her father disgraced because she loves him, its natural for her to ask this of shepard.

By reveiling the truth you not only do justice by condeming Rael, you also harm or convict Tali, who is inocent of any crime.

If you reveal the truth, Tali is immediately cleared of all charges and none of the guilt or blame falls upon her, not least because of Rael's recorded words explicitly stating that she had nothing to do with it.

Tali's honor is clean.