118 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

I don't really get what the war crime was.

[Swerodent]

Experimenting on sentient creatures?

Dr. Mengele ring a bell?

[Bamboozalist]

^ That



Plus that whole endangering the entire fleet and millions of innocent lives...that also might have something to do with it.

[Slayer299]

^That



And considering he was on the Admiralty Board for the QMF makes it even more egregious.

[General User]

^That
 
Also he bypassed basic safety precautions to do his unethical experiments. So he was incompetent to boot.

[digby69]

Year he wasn't doing anything really bad in the "war crime" sort of way but more like really dangerous and stupid stuff like building biological weapons in the middle of a capitol city with no safe guards.

[Bamboozalist]

digby69 wrote...

Year he wasn't doing anything really bad in the "war crime" sort of way but more like really dangerous and stupid stuff like building biological weapons in the middle of a capitol city with no safe guards.

He was also testing those weapons on sapient life forms.

[Kristofer1]

I wouldnt call the geth sapient. just advanced computers.

[Bamboozalist]

Kristofer1 wrote...

I wouldnt call the geth sapient. just advanced computers.

Legion shows that the are more than just a computer.

[StarGateGod]

Kristofer1 wrote...

I wouldnt call the geth sapient. just advanced computers.

the geth are sapeint
testing weapons on live prisons is a war crime. testing it inside the fleet is just plain stupid.. and doing it without anyone knowing about is even more stupid.
the guy was justplain stupid

Modifié par StarGateGod, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:06 .

[Kristofer1]

I still refuse to call the geth sapient. The geth are just the mass effect version of iRobot. and tali and the quarians are will smith.

[CaptainZaysh]

What exactly was he doing? I'm still not really clear on it.

[Bamboozalist]

Kristofer1 wrote...

I still refuse to call the geth sapient. The geth are just the mass effect version of iRobot. and tali and the quarians are will smith.

Except that Legion does things that go away from standard logical choices that a non sapient advanced machine would make. Like all the crap in his LOTSB dossier.

[Dean_the_Young]

Swerodent wrote...

Experimenting on sentient creatures?
Dr. Mengele ring a bell?

If you sign up to volunteer for a psychology study in which you're asked to answer questions, they're experimenting on you. 'Experimenting' is as innately harmful as 'getting someone in water' is equivalent to drowning them. IE, not.

The issue with Rael's experiments is that they were akin to torturous experiments. Except for minor points such as that geth do not feal pain, and that Geth being sentient, as opposed to simply incredibly complex but predictable, can remain a large question for debate.

[General User]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Kristofer1 wrote...

I still refuse to call the geth sapient. The geth are just the mass effect version of iRobot. and tali and the quarians are will smith.

Except that Legion does things that go away from standard logical choices that a non sapient advanced machine would make. Like all the crap in his LOTSB dossier.

Aye.
 
Legion passes the Turing Test every time he goes online. Proving beyond any rational doubt that geth are sentient and sapient beings.

[Dean_the_Young]

StarGateGod wrote...

Kristofer1 wrote...

I wouldnt call the geth sapient. just advanced computers.

the geth are sapeint

Debatable. It truly depends on your definition of sapeince, or more relevently you're concept of free will in organic life. Geth actions can be predicted and determined by mathematical calculations. They are complex, but ultimately predictable if you had the means to do the sort of equations.

Organics are not so clear. If you believe all our decisions are nothing but a result of chemistry and physics acting and reacting, no, there is no difference. If you believe we, for whatever reason, retain free will and are not dictated by predictable (if irrational) physics, then we are different.

testing weapons on live prisons is a war crime.

Mainly because testing weapons on live prisoners hurts the prisoners. Geth do not feel pain, however.

testing it inside the fleet is just plain stupid..

It's on an isolated ship. It's not like the Geth can walk from one part of the fleet to the next: you disable the ship (as the Quarians did), and inside the fleet is as close as the dark side of the moon, or the Citadel. And since the Quarians lack a planet to sit down at, they suffer other problems in doing it elsewhere.

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

Kristofer1 wrote...

I still refuse to call the geth sapient. The geth are just the mass effect version of iRobot. and tali and the quarians are will smith.

Except that Legion does things that go away from standard logical choices that a non sapient advanced machine would make. Like all the crap in his LOTSB dossier.

Aye.
 
Legion passes the Turing Test every time he goes online. Proving beyond any rational doubt that geth are sentient and sapient beings.

Mathematics doesn't necessitate 'standard logic.' As a literary trope, that's a habit of convention, not a innate truth of what AI must be.

People ask 'why do it,' but the better question to ask is 'why not?' The mathematical default is not zero action. The reason we assume it's logical not to do anything with a purpose is an ingrained economy of actions inherent in ourselves as humans: doing things costs things, whether time or money or effort, and so we are naturally inclined to conserve.

But there's no real basis for believing machines must be the same way. A machine does not get tired. A machine has no emotional instinct to hoarde money, or to view money as anything but a tool. The primary reason not to do something is that it costs too much something. What is too much for a machine, and what is too much for an organic, are in no way necessarily the same thing. If something does not significantly detract from higher priorities... why not?

Geth don't need a reason to act, any more than organics do, and any reason, however minor, can serve if there isn't reason not to do something.

Geth analyze emotion, but freely admit that they do not share or even understand it. They have to model it. There's hardly anything that Legion does that doesn't reflect an overall Geth process to better understand organic emotions. Emulation and immitation are basic examples of that.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 janvier 2011 - 02:30 .

[levannar]

From a quarian point of view, it was unacceptable, but not because he was experimenting on sentient life forms that have certain rights of their own as the quarians (at least their majority) don't acknowledge geth as such. It was a 'war crime' because he was endangering the entire Flotilla by not only using functional geth parts (an act strictly prohibited by their laws) but also linking these together in a network to study them. What happened was the exact reason why this was illegal in the first place: the geth got out of control, took over the ship and were threatening the rest of the fleet. The situation could potentially result in thousands of casualties.



You also have to consider who he was. From a member of the Admiralty Board who was fully aware what the geth are capable of, it was an unforgivable mistake. Much like how politicians are more condemned for their mistakes than ordinary people because they're supposed to be showing an example. Still, I'd say he committed one of the most serious crimes by quarian standards.



As for ethical concerns, well, that depends on whether you consider the geth sentient. That's not the reason it was considered a crime by quarian laws.

[Bamboozalist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

General User wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

Kristofer1 wrote...

I still refuse to call the geth sapient. The geth are just the mass effect version of iRobot. and tali and the quarians are will smith.

Except that Legion does things that go away from standard logical choices that a non sapient advanced machine would make. Like all the crap in his LOTSB dossier.

Aye.
 
Legion passes the Turing Test every time he goes online. Proving beyond any rational doubt that geth are sentient and sapient beings.

Mathematics doesn't necessitate 'standard logic.' As a literary trope, that's a habit of convention, not a innate truth of what AI must be.

People ask 'why do it,' but the better question to ask is 'why not?' The mathematical default is not zero action.

Geth analyze emotion, but freely admit that they do not share or even understand it. They have to model it. There's hardly anything that Legion does that doesn't reflect an overall Geth process to better understand organic emotions. Emulation and immitation are basic examples of that.

Not killing any slaves in the GTA game, killing 100 quarians, buying a game to give the proceeds to victims of the Geth. He's sapient.

[FlintlockJazz]

Kristofer1 wrote...

I still refuse to call the geth sapient. The geth are just the mass effect version of iRobot. and tali and the quarians are will smith.

That iRobot film was an insult to Asimov's work, started off well but then just devolved into a mindless action flick with evil robots in.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bamboozalist wrote...


Not killing any slaves in the GTA game, killing 100 quarians, buying a game to give the proceeds to victims of the Geth. He's sapient.

How does any of that prove sapience? Why can't an unsapient VI do the same thing?

[Winterfly]

Anyone finding a "race" of robots sentient and equal to humans or other organic races must reconsider. The Geth have no feelings and no understanding of the concept "individual".



Mighty dangerous to "welcome" them into the council. The Quarians did the right thing when they saw what was going to happen.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Don't forget that Legion is not an individual. It is not a "he", nor a singular entity. Legion is just an animated mouthpiece, or mobile platform, that is controlled by numerous geth which are never on screen. Thousands of geth input at once cause Legion's behavior, not any singular logic or individual "being".



Regardless, I'm pretty sure the gravity of Rael's crime comes specifically from him reassembling geth. The quarians have those laws to protect the fleet, since the geth, you know, took over their homeworld and almost killed the entire quarian species.

I really don't think they're concerned with the pseudo "ethics" of experimenting on AI "creatures".



And that's why what Tali suggests in that mission is absurdly irresponsible and almost as traitorous as what Rael did himself.

[Dean_the_Young]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

What exactly was he doing? I'm still not really clear on it.

I think, from a Quarian perspective, it wasn't so much what he did to the Geth (besides some AI research taboos), and far, far more about what he did to and that he risked the Fleet.

Shepard can go about it as a 'war crimes if they were Alliance,' but I don't quite think that's what the Quarians were upset over.

[Bamboozalist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...


Not killing any slaves in the GTA game, killing 100 quarians, buying a game to give the proceeds to victims of the Geth. He's sapient.

How does any of that prove sapience? Why can't an unsapient VI do the same thing?

1. VI don't have free will they can only interact with the information they are given.
2. Those actions show that legion has free choice and is motivated by something other than logical thought and the desire to imitate others. He buys a crap ton of copies of a game he never plays simply because the proceeds go to Eden Prime. This shows he's capable of feeling sorrow or guilt even if in the most basic forms.
3. His loyalty mission and all the talk about diverging thoughts among the Geth show that they have at least rudimentary sapience.