Kristofer1 wrote...
I still refuse to call the geth sapient.
Guest_kya169_*
Bamboozalist wrote...
1. VI don't have free will they can only interact with the information they are given.
2. Those actions show that legion has free choice and is motivated by something other than logical thought and the desire to imitate others. He buys a crap ton of copies of a game he never plays simply because the proceeds go to Eden Prime. This shows he's capable of feeling sorrow or guilt even if in the most basic forms.
3. His loyalty mission and all the talk about diverging thoughts among the Geth show that they have at least rudimentary sapience.
This is important about the Geth. Whether you believe they are sapient or not, they are not a race of individuals. They are a collective limited by the size of their processor.Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Don't forget that Legion is not an individual. It is not a "he", nor a singular entity. Legion is just an animated mouthpiece, or mobile platform, that is controlled by numerous geth which are never on screen. Thousands of geth input at once cause Legion's behavior, not any singular logic or individual "being".
Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Bamboozalist wrote...
1. VI don't have free will they can only interact with the information they are given.
2. Those actions show that legion has free choice and is motivated by something other than logical thought and the desire to imitate others. He buys a crap ton of copies of a game he never plays simply because the proceeds go to Eden Prime. This shows he's capable of feeling sorrow or guilt even if in the most basic forms.
3. His loyalty mission and all the talk about diverging thoughts among the Geth show that they have at least rudimentary sapience.
None of that is definitive proof. It is possible that their programming has adopted a way to simulate such things as empathy.
To say that Legion actually feels sorrow or regret is a complete assumption, and one that doesn't particularly make a lot of scientific sense given what Legion is.
I can program a computer to make a monetary donation every time a natural disaster hits a country. That doesn't mean the computer is grieving. The only unknown quantity is that we don't know if the quarians installed programming that allowed for such decisions to be made. Since they are happening, it is logical to assume they did.
That doesn't prevent them from not killing slaves, killing quarians, or buying games for charity. A VI programmed in a way to result in that will do just that.Bamboozalist wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
How does any of that prove sapience? Why can't an unsapient VI do the same thing?Bamboozalist wrote...
Not killing any slaves in the GTA game, killing 100 quarians, buying a game to give the proceeds to victims of the Geth. He's sapient.
1. VI don't have free will they can only interact with the information they are given.
They in no way show free choice, and it in now way shows emotional reception on the Geth's part (something they, repeatedly, disclaim).2. Those actions show that legion has free choice and is motivated by something other than logical thought and the desire to imitate others. He buys a crap ton of copies of a game he never plays simply because the proceeds go to Eden Prime. This shows he's capable of feeling sorrow or guilt even if in the most basic forms.
No it doesn't. It says they have diverging math processes and come to different conclusions. Which is rather reasonable in self-changing programming, with or without sentience.3. His loyalty mission and all the talk about diverging thoughts among the Geth show that they have at least rudimentary sapience.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
This is important about the Geth. Whether you believe they are sapient or not, they are not a race of individuals. They are a collective limited by the size of their processor.Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Don't forget that Legion is not an individual. It is not a "he", nor a singular entity. Legion is just an animated mouthpiece, or mobile platform, that is controlled by numerous geth which are never on screen. Thousands of geth input at once cause Legion's behavior, not any singular logic or individual "being".
One geth is not sapient: it is a program that can be written on paper and solved. Two programs are not sapient, but are more complex than two individuals. Three programs are not sapient, but even more complex, and can be solved. Etc. etc.
Geth sapience, isn't on the innate sapience of its component parts. It's based on that, past a point, Geth program inter-facing and work is simply too much to work out. A thousand programs with a thousand outputs can produce a lot of variables in behavior. That gestalt, however, is still based on predictable math (if 'irrational' logic), and begs the analogy 'is something so complex that it is indecipherable from sapience, sapient?'
Of course, it's very easy to say no. Technology that is so advanced that it is indistringuishable from magic, after all, is still technology and not magic.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
Mathematics doesn't necessitate 'standard logic.' As a literary trope, that's a habit of convention, not a innate truth of what AI must be.
People ask 'why do it,' but the better question to ask is 'why not?' The mathematical default is not zero action. The reason we assume it's logical not to do anything with a purpose is an ingrained economy of actions inherent in ourselves as humans: doing things costs things, whether time or money or effort, and so we are naturally inclined to conserve.
But there's no real basis for believing machines must be the same way. A machine does not get tired. A machine has no emotional instinct to hoarde money, or to view money as anything but a tool. The primary reason not to do something is that it costs too much something. What is too much for a machine, and what is too much for an organic, are in no way necessarily the same thing. If something does not significantly detract from higher priorities... why not?
Geth don't need a reason to act, any more than organics do, and any reason, however minor, can serve if there isn't reason not to do something.
Geth analyze emotion, but freely admit that they do not share or even understand it. They have to model it. There's hardly anything that Legion does that doesn't reflect an overall Geth process to better understand organic emotions. Emulation and immitation are basic examples of that.
Bamboozalist wrote...
Except that directly contradicts everything we've been told about the Geth and the canon. They were made as cheap labor, they achieved sentience the second they asked their creators why they were "alive", that's what made the Geth try and purge them. The quarians didn't progam anything into them that would make them spend their free time playing online video games nor anything that would make them donate to a colony that a radical branching faction attacked nor anything that would make them actively try to understand human emotion and emulate it. Sorry they're sapient, it's canon, get over it. Also Tali considers them sapient.
No it doesn't.Bamboozalist wrote...
Except that directly contradicts everything we've been told about the Geth and the canon.
No they didn't.They were made as cheap labor, they achieved sentience the second they asked their creators why they were "alive",
No, the Geth purged the Quarians because the Quarians tried to turn them off. Not because the Quarians kept them as cheap labor.that's what made the Geth try and purge them.
Except, in a sense, they did just that.The quarians didn't progam anything into them that would make them spend their free time playing online video games nor anything that would make them donate to a colony that a radical branching faction attacked nor anything that would make them actively try to understand human emotion and emulate it.
And Admiral Xen doesn't, and Admiral Xen is both far more experienced and a subject matter in the field than Tali. So, canonically by the authority of an actual expert, the Geth aren't sapient, only very advanced.Sorry they're sapient, it's canon, get over it. Also Tali considers them sapient.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
Chain quote...
Winterfly wrote...
Mighty dangerous to "welcome" them into the council. The Quarians did the right thing when they saw what was going to happen.
General User wrote../
If two things cannot be distinguished from each other they can be treated as equals.
So even though geth sentience and sapience are different from ours, our respective kinds should be considered as equals. Since the differences between us are insufficient to distinguish us from each other, even under diligent inspection.
The human without that part of his brain isn't sapient, so I'm not sure what your point was. The point isn't that geth aren't sapient beyond a significant number: the point is that geth sapience isn't free will, but only predictable but complex program interactions.Bamboozalist wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
This is important about the Geth. Whether you believe they are sapient or not, they are not a race of individuals. They are a collective limited by the size of their processor.Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Don't forget that Legion is not an individual. It is not a "he", nor a singular entity. Legion is just an animated mouthpiece, or mobile platform, that is controlled by numerous geth which are never on screen. Thousands of geth input at once cause Legion's behavior, not any singular logic or individual "being".
One geth is not sapient: it is a program that can be written on paper and solved. Two programs are not sapient, but are more complex than two individuals. Three programs are not sapient, but even more complex, and can be solved. Etc. etc.
Geth sapience, isn't on the innate sapience of its component parts. It's based on that, past a point, Geth program inter-facing and work is simply too much to work out. A thousand programs with a thousand outputs can produce a lot of variables in behavior. That gestalt, however, is still based on predictable math (if 'irrational' logic), and begs the analogy 'is something so complex that it is indecipherable from sapience, sapient?'
Of course, it's very easy to say no. Technology that is so advanced that it is indistringuishable from magic, after all, is still technology and not magic.
That's a logical fallacy. It's like saying because a Human is not capable of complex thought if you cut out a portion of its brain, humans are not sapient.
Bamboozalist wrote...
1. The very fact that they evolved past their programming and started questioning their existence proves their sapience.
2. That doesn't stop Legion from not understanding why he choose Shepard's armor to fix himself with. That choice also shows that they have some thought process with rudimentary emotion
3. It's canon that they're sapient so this entire argument is pointless.
Dean_the_Young wrote...
Wall of text...
Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
And your other points were already covered. The ability to adapt and share programming information was coded into the geth from the start. They are reacting exactly as the quarians' programming allows, and that is all they are doing.
That's not actually all that hard to do. Even now, basic turing tests can fool people. The only matter is the complexity of the test, which even dumb Geth VI can be applicable for.General User wrote...
The truth, that the geth reason and conceptualize themselves and the world around them in a fundamentally different manner than organic beings, is obvious beyond debate.
My point is that reasonable people, even those trained to spot the differences between organics and machines online, are unable to successfully do so with Legion.
Not if they aren't, though. It's an easy philosophical approach, but a lazy scientific approach. It used to be that forensics couldn't tell the difference between gun shots of a similar type: now, we can tell the gun from the bullet fragments.
If two things cannot be distinguished from each other they can be treated as equals.
The diligent inspection, however, is under extremely adverse conditions, and against its own attempts to blend in. Would you consider any other inspection diligent if two sides never met, never saw eachother, and had but the barest opportunities and contexts to talk?So even though geth sentience and sapience are different from ours, our respective kinds should be considered as equals. Since the differences between us are insufficient to distinguish us from each other, even under diligent inspection.
Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
General User wrote../
If two things cannot be distinguished from each other they can be treated as equals.
So even though geth sentience and sapience are different from ours, our respective kinds should be considered as equals. Since the differences between us are insufficient to distinguish us from each other, even under diligent inspection.
I would disagree. Just because two things look the same does not mean they are the same.
And if they aren't necessarily the same, there's nothing to suggest they should be treated the same.
Like I said earlier, a robot can be programmed to simulate just about anything. A robot could be programmed to carry on a conversation with someone (which exists), but that doesn't mean it actually understands anything it's saying or being told.
Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
General User wrote../
If two things cannot be distinguished from each other they can be treated as equals.
So even though geth sentience and sapience are different from ours, our respective kinds should be considered as equals. Since the differences between us are insufficient to distinguish us from each other, even under diligent inspection.
I would disagree. Just because two things look the same does not mean they are the same.
And if they aren't necessarily the same, there's nothing to suggest they should be treated the same.
Like I said earlier, a robot can be programmed to simulate just about anything. A robot could be programmed to carry on a conversation with someone (which exists), but that doesn't mean it actually understands anything it's saying or being told.
...that's exactly what I said.Bamboozalist wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
Wall of text...
No, the Quarians tried purging the Geth because "slave labor is okay for machines, but not a sentient race" they thought the Geth were going to rise up against them and they attacked first leading to the Geth fighting back.
Xen is an Admiral, and identified in the game as one who's expertise and interest is very much in the Geth. She is depicted as the Admiral with the interest and history in Geth AI, such as when she notes that she and Kael could be incredibly close. She is not a member of a fringe group either.Xen isn't an expert on anything though, she's a very intelligent woman, but that's like saying a member of the KKK is expert because he doesn't consider certain races equal. It's a logical fallacy just like saying the Geth aren't sapient because they require many programs to run complex thought, guess what so does every sapient being, it's called our brain, it's basically an organic computer.
The point of a Turing (not Turning) Test is a demonstration that you don't need sapience to be indestinguishable from true intelligence.From a Turning Test stand point they are a true intelligent race and there for sapient. If you want to debate if their sapience is equal to human sapience, go ahead.
Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 janvier 2011 - 03:16 .
Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Saying our brain is an organic computer is backwards. A computer is a synthetic brain.
It's meant to simulate a brain by being able to make decisions based on variables. That doesn't make the computer alive; it makes it a simulation. The geth can simulate sapience, sure, but there's nothing concrete to suggest that they have true wisdom, since it's canon that they are synthetic, and therefore the logic capabilities they possess is limited solely to their artificial intelligence. And there is a reason it's called artificial intelligence.
General User wrote...
Similarly, since no one who is not in the same room with Legion can tell whether or not they are a machine or an organic, Legion (and by extension the rest of the geth) should be treated as people.
And I don't really believe you can achieve that with Legion.Bamboozalist wrote...
You can not get that conversation robot to reach a point where it actually does not understand why it does what it does though. You can do that with Legion. You can program a machine but it will always work with in that programing, that's why the programs designed to carry on conversations can't be made to simply not have a response for a certain action, it will either be an error or it will just jump to a new line and continue the conversation it was programmed to have.
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