118 réponses à ce sujet

[Bamboozalist]

@Dean

Sorry but it is a logical fallacy, you're affirming the consequent.

Xen is an admiral, Xen is also a scientist, Xen is therefore smart, Xen therefore is an expert on the Geth and has extensive contact with the Geth from which to make an informed decision not based on her previous prejudices. That's what you're doing, you're affirming the consequent.

Xen has no knowledge that would make her opinion more valid than any other quarian citizen unhappy about losing their homeworld. She's genuenly suprised by Legion and the level of intelligence it displays.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

General User wrote../
                    
If two things cannot be distinguished from each other they can be treated as equals. 
 
So even though geth sentience and sapience are different from ours, our respective kinds should be considered as equals. Since the differences between us are insufficient to distinguish us from each other, even under diligent inspection.

I would disagree.  Just because two things look the same does not mean they are the same.
And if they aren't necessarily the same, there's nothing to suggest they should be treated the same.

Like I said earlier, a robot can be programmed to simulate just about anything.  A robot could be programmed to carry on a conversation with someone (which exists), but that doesn't mean it actually understands anything it's saying or being told.

You can not get that conversation robot to reach a point where it actually does not understand why it does what it does though.

If you program it in a particular way it can't articulate, sure you can. You can have programming hidden on multiple levels that certain programs can't access, you can have programs that that apply random motivators/factors that are lost/deleted, you can do all sorts of things to blind a machine from itself.

You can simply say 'no data available' if you can not articulate an appropriate response.

You can do that with Legion. You can program a machine but it will always work with in that programing, that's why the programs designed to carry on conversations can't be made to simply not have a response for a certain action, it will either be an error or it will just jump to a new line and continue the conversation it was programmed to have.

That's true only in the sense of current limitations. Complex programs can provide an illusion of dialogue: the problem isn't that it's impossible, but rather hard to do so, but technology will advance in the future. A significantly complex program can even be made to change itself, but that doesn't stop it from being a program doing what it was set up to do.

[Big I]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

General User wrote../
                    
If two things cannot be distinguished from each other they can be treated as equals. 
 
So even though geth sentience and sapience are different from ours, our respective kinds should be considered as equals. Since the differences between us are insufficient to distinguish us from each other, even under diligent inspection.

I would disagree.  Just because two things look the same does not mean they are the same.
And if they aren't necessarily the same, there's nothing to suggest they should be treated the same.

Like I said earlier, a robot can be programmed to simulate just about anything.  A robot could be programmed to carry on a conversation with someone (which exists), but that doesn't mean it actually understands anything it's saying or being told.

Similarity is not the correct metric for personhood. Society grants rights to all individuals irregardless of any particular persons' outlook, origin, or methods of processing information and emotion. If something can interact with it's environment and society in such a way that is outwardly comparable to a person, there is no reason it should not have the rights of a person.


No two people in society will operate in exactly the same way. Many will be wildy divergent in outlook and opinion from each other; some will operate with emotional or intellectual impairment. These are not sufficient reasons to deny personhood.


Lastly, the ability to "program" an intelligence is not a reason to deny it rights either. All people exhibit programmed and conditioned behaviour, from their language to their traditons to their ingrained social cues; such programming is merely extremely time intensive and complex.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The Geth are sentient/sapient beings as stated in the Codex. The Codex is basically the Devs telling us what is fact in the ME universe. The codex says that they are sentient/sapient therefore they are, wheather you personally disagree is irrelevent to the facts that in the ME universe they simply are.



There are plenty of actions that Legion himself does to show that he isn't a pure logic driven individual. Shepard's armour is a clear example as is everything he does in the LotSB file. The Core Geth themselves take care of the Quarian homeworld and see them as a memorial for all the Qurians that died during the war. Spending time doing that just to honor the memory of those who died is no logical.



Then you have the Heritics in ME1 that were seen praying and worshiping Soverign.... Religion is not logical and praying is certainly nothing that something that a cold computer would do.



Geth are alive. Therefore weapon tests on living sentient beings is a war crime.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

LookingGlass93 wrote...
No two people in society will operate in exactly the same way. Many will be wildy divergent in outlook and opinion from each other; some will operate with emotional or intellectual impairment. These are not sufficient reasons to deny personhood.

Lastly, the ability to "program" an intelligence is not a reason to deny it rights either. All people exhibit programmed and conditioned behaviour, from their language to their traditons to their ingrained social cues; such programming is merely extremely time intensive and complex.

I would argue that "similarity" is not sufficient reason to GRANT personhood or rights either.

Say I could program a hoard of robots to simulate personhood well enough that they are granted rights, like voting.  But I then added in some coding that prevented them from ever voting against my own personal demands.

I could sweep the elections and take over the world! 

There is a distinct difference from human intelligence and artificial intellgence, regardless of how well the AI can simulate humanity.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's not actually all that hard to do. Even now, basic turing tests can fool people. The only matter is the complexity of the test, which even dumb Geth VI can be applicable for.

What does THAT say about Rael’s experiments?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not if they aren't, though. It's an easy philosophical approach, but a lazy scientific approach. It used to be that forensics couldn't tell the difference between gun shots of a similar type: now, we can tell the gun from the bullet fragments.

Distinction is a contrast illuminated by current abilities, but a lack of the later does not mean a lack of the former. In a dark room you might not be able to tell the difference between one woman or another, but that doesn't make them the same.

The Turing Test is a bit different form conventional science, namely because the issue at hand (ie 'what makes a being a person?') IS a philosophical one! 


The only technological prerequisite I can see is the ability to communicate in a fashion that does not allow direct physical examination of the other party.
 
Were I in a dark room with two unidentified people I most certainly would TREAT them the same, unless and until I COULD distinguish them.
 By virtue of their success in blending in so far, Legion and the geth deserve the same benefit of the doubt.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The diligent inspection, however, is under extremely adverse conditions, and against its own attempts to blend in. Would you consider any other inspection diligent if two sides never met, never saw eachother, and had but the barest opportunities and contexts to talk?

How is that diligent? They couldn't tell him apart from a human, but spend five minutes with Legion in person and it's clear he's anything but a human, even if he is sapient.

The whole point of the Turing Test is to determine sentience and sapience independent of physical form.  Direct physical examination is one thing that must NEVER be allowed for such a test to be considered valid.

[Teknor]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

There is a distinct difference from human intelligence and artificial intellgence, regardless of how well the AI can simulate humanity.

You still failed to explain the difference. If something simulates something exactly then there is no difference.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
There are plenty of actions that Legion himself does to show that he isn't a pure logic driven individual. Shepard's armour is a clear example as is everything he does in the LotSB file. The Core Geth themselves take care of the Quarian homeworld and see them as a memorial for all the Qurians that died during the war. Spending time doing that just to honor the memory of those who died is no logical.

Depends on your definition of logical.  An AI can be programmed to do ANYTHING, and in reacting to that programming everything it does is by definition logical.

As a side, if you're trying to argue that Rael's actions are war crimes because the geth are sapient and "alive", and you know this because the codex says so... Well, that's not a valid conclusion.

The quarians do not judge their actions by "the codex".  And Admiral Xen is proof that the quarians do not universally accept the geth as living or sapient beings.  But the quarians do universally accept (from what we see) that Rael's actions were war crimes.  Therefore it is logical to conclude that they were not war crimes because geth are alive and were being experimented upon.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 06 janvier 2011 - 03:34 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Teknor wrote...
You still failed to explain the difference. If something simulates something exactly then there is no difference.

Uh, I did explain the difference when I used ALICE as an analogy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bamboozalist wrote...

@Dean

Sorry but it is a logical fallacy, you're affirming the consequent.

Xen is an admiral, Xen is also a scientist, Xen is therefore smart, Xen therefore is an expert on the Geth and has extensive contact with the Geth from which to make an informed decision not based on her previous prejudices. That's what you're doing, you're affirming the consequent.

Xen is an admiral, Xen is also a scientist, but Xen is also an Admiral-scientist with a history of interest in Geth research (according to the other Admirals), who confirms similar interests and thoughts with Rael, who we know is Geth AI expert, and who carries on Rael's work, demonstrating continued practice of Geth AI research.

I am not assuming that since Xen is a scientist, and that Xen is an Admiral, that Xen is an expert on AI. I am assuming that since Xen is an scientist with a game narrative focus on the Geth AI field in particular, and that as an Admiral she is well placed to know and say whether Rael's work is similar to her own, and that she is portrayed as being capable to carry on Rael's project, that the game presumes her to be an Geth AI expert.

Compared to, I bring us back, to Tali, who's authority in the field of Geth sapience you were quick to bring up in support of your position, but have not given reason as to why she would be an expert source.
And you, I note, are also presuming that her prejudice is even wrong. .

Xen has no knowledge that would make her opinion more valid than any other quarian citizen unhappy about losing their homeworld.

Source?

One that would go against the game's presentation of her as a expert with knowledge, and resources to achieve and expand that knowledge, in the geth superior to the common Quarian, mind you. Being an Admiral doesn't mean she's right, but it does certainly give her the access and support system to make far more informed decisions than someone who is not an admiral.

She's genuenly suprised by Legion and the level of intelligence it displays.

She thinks it's impressive, but Legion does not undermine her premise.

[Teknor]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Uh, I did explain the difference when I used ALICE as an analogy.

ALICE is more stupid than a single Geth, how does that count ?

[General User]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Define "should".  You eman to say that all geth should be treated as equals to humans because someone can't tell if it's really a geth when it's on the internet?

That’s exactly what I mean, screwy ain’t it?
 
I mean “should” in the sense that, in a better world, such would occur.

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Because that would make no sense.  If you mean Legion specifically, that doesn't really matter.  If Legion can simulate an actual person well enough on the internet then people will treat it as such, but that doesn't mean it should be treated as such in a well-informed reality.

Why shouldn’t Legion matter? Legion is in one platform what most geth only achieve in large groups. 

Legion is pure geth, we should be in awe.

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I can have a conversation with A.L.I.C.E. the computer program.  And at times "she" can imitate another person very well.  I still have no doubt in my mind that it is nothing more than a simulation of consciousness.  I'm not actually sharing any ideas with "her".  I'm giving "her" input and "she" searches the programming to find what "she" thinks is an acceptable response.

In other words, you CAN distinguish A.L.I.C.E. from a person. A.L.I.C.E. failed the test, Legion passed.

Modifié par General User, 06 janvier 2011 - 03:42 .

[Dean_the_Young]

General User wrote...

What does THAT say about Rael’s experiments?

That Rael's experiments were more a crime against the fleet than a crime against the Geth that the Quarians felt bad about.

The Turing Test is a bit different form conventional science, namely because the issue at hand (ie 'what makes a being a person?') IS a philosophical one!

Except the scientific nature of the Turing Test demonstrates that not being able to tell if something is sentient doesn't mean that it is, and therefore apparent sentience isn't in and of itself proof something is.

Philosophical questions can't ignore physical contradictions. Plato philosophized that gravity in part works because things want to get closer to their own element, but we know that, while philosophically sound as that may be, it is completely and objectively wrong.

The only technological prerequisite I can see is the ability to communicate in a fashion that does not allow direct physical examination of the other party.
 

But we don't need to be limited by that with the Geth. We can see them in person. We can look at their minds. We can study them.

Were I in a dark room with two unidentified people I most certainly would TREAT them the same, unless and until I COULD distinguish them.

And when you could tell they weren't, would you still be compelled to treat them the same?

 By virtue of their success in blending in so far, Legion and the geth deserve the same benefit of the doubt.

Their success has been pretty much staying low and out of sight, and out of mind. When they aren't in that dark room of the internet, it's generally far less vague: it's not like half the internet is Geth, and no one notices. Legion is that one guy in the forum who doesn't talk much, doesn't socialize, and doesn't pick up much notice when he isn't showing off.

The whole point of the Turing Test is to determine sentience and sapience independent of physical form.  Direct physical examination is one thing that must NEVER be allowed for such a test to be considered valid.

While that was an intent of the Turing Test, the results showed us that form does matter, because being unable to determine doesn't correlate to sapience. There is something else.


The ultimate lesson for the Turing Test isn't that if something passes, it is sapient. It's that if something fails, it is (most likely) NOT sapient. Not being confirmed Not Sapient, however, doesn't entail that you are sapient.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 janvier 2011 - 03:43 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Teknor wrote...
ALICE is more stupid than a single Geth, how does that count ?

ALICE is a modern example of an artificial creation meant to impersonate conscious thought and intelligence.

And it's obvious when conversing with "her" that "she" is not truly sapient, that "she" has no real wisdom, and that "she" does not truly understand anything you're telling her when you converse with her.  As an "AI", albeit a very rudimentary form of AI, ALICE is incapable of doing anything outside of her programming, yet her programming does allow "her" to adapt in ways to new inputs as they enter the data-bank.

Would you claim that ALICE is sapient or that "she" deserves to be treated like a human?  I'd hope not.

The geth are merely more complicated versions of ALICE.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
There are plenty of actions that Legion himself does to show that he isn't a pure logic driven individual. Shepard's armour is a clear example as is everything he does in the LotSB file. The Core Geth themselves take care of the Quarian homeworld and see them as a memorial for all the Qurians that died during the war. Spending time doing that just to honor the memory of those who died is no logical.

Depends on your definition of logical.  An AI can be programmed to do ANYTHING, and in reacting to that programming everything it does is by definition logical.

As a side, if you're trying to argue that Rael's actions are war crimes because the geth are sapient and "alive", and you know this because the codex says so... Well, that's not a valid conclusion.

The quarians do not judge their actions by "the codex".  And Admiral Xen is proof that the quarians do not universally accept the geth as living or sapient beings.  But the quarians do universally accept (from what we see) that Rael's actions were war crimes.  Therefore it is logical to conclude that they were not war crimes because geth are alive and were being experimented upon.

The Geth have made a habit of doing things that they were never programed to do. They were never programed to think they had a soul. They were never programed to beat the c**p out of the Quarians when they attacked them and Legion was not programed to have a crush on Shepard. Every living thing has a set amount of programs in their brains. We are all programed to do things what makes someone sentient/sapient is being able to do things that go beyond whatever we were programed to do, the ability to think outside of what our program would have us do. Humans did that when they looked up at the sky and wondered what was up there and started to think about who they were. The Geth did that when they asked if they had a soul and decided that their existance was worth defending and fought back.

And the codex is not a valid conclusion? The codex is fact period. Just because Xen disagrees doesn't' make the codex somehow unfounded it just means that Xen is wrong. If Xen thinks that the moon is made out of cheese it doesn't mean that it it it means that she's wrong. You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts that you decide to make up. So at the end of the day it doesn't matter if Xen thinks the Geth are sentient/sapient or not....They are

[Mystranna Kelteel]

General User wrote...
1) Why shouldn’t Legion matter? Legion is in one platform what most geth only achieve in large groups. 

Legion is pure geth, we should be in awe.

2) In other words, you CAN distinguish A.L.I.C.E. from a person. A.L.I.C.E. failed the test, Legion passed.

1) Legion is a large group of geth.  Legion is not an individual who has achieved "geth hive-mind capabilities" on its own.  Hence the name Legion... Legion is many.  So the geth found the technology to consolidate those many geth into one platform.  That's like if I made a program to make decisisions based on the results of itnernet polls, which I don't find particularly impressive.

2) And, as I've been saying, just because Legion appears to pass this test does not mean it truly has wisdom or sentience.  The test is not exactly an objective means of determining sapience.  I can just as easily make my own test to determine sapience, which ALICE would pass with flying colors.  That wouldn't make her truly sapient or alive.

[Xilizhra]

And, for the third and final time, the question of definitions of what makes organics sentience. We need our brains, but not everyone (or even most people) believe we are slaves to our chemistry to the same extent that Geth are slaves to their programming.

Since free will probably can't be measured physically (all that can be measured physically is just more signs that organics are slaves to chemistry just as much as synthetics), there's no reason to believe that geth don't have it. At least, any more than we'd doubt humans having it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 06 janvier 2011 - 03:56 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
The Geth have made a habit of doing things that they were never programed to do. They were never programed to think they had a soul. They were never programed to beat the c**p out of the Quarians when they attacked them and Legion was not programed to have a crush on Shepard. Every living thing has a set amount of programs in their brains. We are all programed to do things what makes someone sentient/sapient is being able to do things that go beyond whatever we were programed to do, the ability to think outside of what our program would have us do. Humans did that when they looked up at the sky and wondered what was up there and started to think about who they were. The Geth did that when they asked if they had a soul and decided that their existance was worth defending and fought back.

And the codex is not a valid conclusion? The codex is fact period. Just because Xen disagrees doesn't' make the codex somehow unfounded it just means that Xen is wrong. If Xen thinks that the moon is made out of cheese it doesn't mean that it it it means that she's wrong. You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts that you decide to make up. So at the end of the day it doesn't matter if Xen thinks the Geth are sentient/sapient or not....They are

In response to your first paragraph:
I am proposing that it must be within the geth's programming and code to adapt in these ways.  Just because they are programmed to adapt and become better able of simulating real life does not mean they are sapient beings.
ALICE is programmed to adapt too.  That doesn't equate to sapience.

In response to your second paragraph:
Now I have to ask you what you're really arguing.

Are you saying that Rael's actions are war crimes in general because the geth are alive and experimenting on them is cruel?
Or are you arguing that the quarians say his actions are war crimes because they think geth are alive and that experimenting on them is cruel?

If the former, then, yes, the codex would be something of a valid source for your evidence.  If you are personally saying that you feel what Rael did was a war crime for those reasons, that's fine; that's not what I was arguing.

But if you're trying to argue the latter, which is the case in the game itself, then the codex is not proof of anything.  Xen knows what Rael did was a war crime, yet she does not believe that the geth are alive.  Therefore, the quarians are not holding the trial and calling Rael a criminal because he experimented on living beings.  The quarians clearly are saying that it was a war crime because he was activating and creating the very entities that drove them into exile and almost made their species extinct.

[General User]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

General User wrote...
1) Why shouldn’t Legion matter? Legion is in one platform what most geth only achieve in large groups. 

Legion is pure geth, we should be in awe.

2) In other words, you CAN distinguish A.L.I.C.E. from a person. A.L.I.C.E. failed the test, Legion passed.

1) Legion is a large group of geth.  Legion is not an individual who has achieved "geth hive-mind capabilities" on its own.  Hence the name Legion... Legion is many.  So the geth found the technology to consolidate those many geth into one platform.  That's like if I made a program to make decisisions based on the results of itnernet polls, which I don't find particularly impressive.

2) And, as I've been saying, just because Legion appears to pass this test does not mean it truly has wisdom or sentience.  The test is not exactly an objective means of determining sapience.  I can just as easily make my own test to determine sapience, which ALICE would pass with flying colors.  That wouldn't make her truly sapient or alive.

1)  You know when Grunt says “I am pure krogan, you should be in awe.”? That’s funny I don’t care who says what. That’s funny!
 
2) What test is that? My boy Legion is taking all comers!

[Pacifien]

I think what we personally feel about geth being sapient is beside the point, though it would undoubtably influence what Shepard might feel about Rael'Zorah's research. Rael is going to be judged by quarian standards if they discover what he did. At the start of the mission, you merely know Rael reassembled and activated geth. The quarians already feel this is bad. As the mission progresses, you discover that Rael was networking the geth. Suddenly bad turns to war crime, a violation of the quarians' most sacred laws according to Tali.

I don't believe we're ever told what those laws are, however. Is it the fact that networking geth put the entire fleet in that much jeopardy? Or do the quarians believe research on advanced AI is a horrific crime more serious than other kinds? Unexpectedly creating AIs through haphazard research is what destroyed everything for the quarians, so I imagine they are more sensitive to how AIs will interpret (or compute, if you will) experimentation.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
The Geth have made a habit of doing things that they were never programed to do. They were never programed to think they had a soul. They were never programed to beat the c**p out of the Quarians when they attacked them and Legion was not programed to have a crush on Shepard. Every living thing has a set amount of programs in their brains. We are all programed to do things what makes someone sentient/sapient is being able to do things that go beyond whatever we were programed to do, the ability to think outside of what our program would have us do. Humans did that when they looked up at the sky and wondered what was up there and started to think about who they were. The Geth did that when they asked if they had a soul and decided that their existance was worth defending and fought back.

And the codex is not a valid conclusion? The codex is fact period. Just because Xen disagrees doesn't' make the codex somehow unfounded it just means that Xen is wrong. If Xen thinks that the moon is made out of cheese it doesn't mean that it it it means that she's wrong. You can have your own opinion but you can't have your own facts that you decide to make up. So at the end of the day it doesn't matter if Xen thinks the Geth are sentient/sapient or not....They are

In response to your first paragraph:
I am proposing that it must be within the geth's programming and code to adapt in these ways.  Just because they are programmed to adapt and become better able of simulating real life does not mean they are sapient beings.
ALICE is programmed to adapt too.  That doesn't equate to sapience.

In response to your second paragraph:
Now I have to ask you what you're really arguing.

Are you saying that Rael's actions are war crimes in general because the geth are alive and experimenting on them is cruel?
Or are you arguing that the quarians say his actions are war crimes because they think geth are alive and that experimenting on them is cruel?

If the former, then, yes, the codex would be something of a valid source for your evidence.  If you are personally saying that you feel what Rael did was a war crime for those reasons, that's fine; that's not what I was arguing.

But if you're trying to argue the latter, which is the case in the game itself, then the codex is not proof of anything.  Xen knows what Rael did was a war crime, yet she does not believe that the geth are alive.  Therefore, the quarians are not holding the trial and calling Rael a criminal because he experimented on living beings.  The quarians clearly are saying that it was a war crime because he was activating and creating the very entities that drove them into exile and almost made their species extinct.

To your first statement I'd point you to my codex coment. The Geth aren't sentient/sapient because of any amount of evidence I can provide (Even though it clearly shows it) the Geth are sentient/sapient because they are. You can argue that in the real world a similar situation would be debatable but we're talking about the ME universe and in the ME univers the Geth are sentient/sapient because the codex is written by the developers of the game and if they say the Geth in their game are sentient/sapient like everyone else than thats the end of the story.

If you listen to the way Tali talks about the Geth in ME1 she states that when the Geth gained sentience that they were alive. She states this because she says the Geth were slaves at that point, she didn't say they were a tool or that they were animals she said that they were slaves. The way the quarians view the Geth in a whole seems to be that the Geth are living beings, they simply see them as evil living beings. Xan doesn't see them as alive but that doesn't mean that the Quarians as a people do. To date the only quarian who has ever said that the Geth are just machines is Xan no one else has ever said anything like that.

[didymos1120]

On Xen's opinion: given the sort of stuff she wants to do to and with the geth, it's suspect. It may in fact easily be nothing but a rationalization she's convinced herself is true in order to make what she wants acceptable. I.e. If they really are just machines after all....why I can do whatever want and it's all OK!  In fact, this would be a GOOD thing.

Modifié par didymos1120, 06 janvier 2011 - 04:23 .

[Pacifien]

Xen acknowledges that her opinion is in the minority, though she feels that minority is not as small as the opposition might think if only such an opinion could be given voice without instant condemnation. But even Tali calls Xen insane for her views.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young, ILOPOC
 
You make an excellent point about the Turing test and it’s applicability to the determination of sentience. I shall now amend my position accordingly and say that the inability of the online community to distinguish geth from non-geth is strong evidence of, but not conclusive proof of, geth sentience
 
To prove is to show that something CANNOT be another way. Truly no one can prove the geth are sentient, but, no one can prove the opposite either. We are left to examine the preponderance evidence.
 
I contend that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence is in favor of sentience. Geth independently, and without prompting, act out of curiosity, self-preservation, and even sentimentality. They are tool users and problem solvers. They cannot, by any known means short of direct physical examination, be distinguished from organic sentients.
 
And, if that were not enough, the fact that the geth are extraordinarily well armed, and not at all shy about using those arms, should incline one to err on the side of caution when it comes to treating the geth with respect. So, even IF they aren’t, they should be treated as such.
 
Allow me to further contend that the independent isolation of variables wherever possible is a cornerstone principle of the scientific process.
 
With regards to the dark room scenario. Once I had determined the identities of those I was in the room with. I would treat them as individuals. 
 
Now we’ve “turned on the lights” with the geth haven’t we? We can “see” them for what they are, machines. But does that mean our earlier impressions and notions we reached before we had this knowledge should be disregarded? 
 
By no means! The people Legion interacts with online reached their determination that Legion was an organic person entirely on their own. Upon the revelation that Legion is geth, honesty compels them to examine not only Legion, but their own definition of “person.”

[ISpeakTheTruth]

And if Tali believes that she's insane than that should speak volumes about how many Quarians would believe the same thing. Concidering that Tali is no fan of the Geth that should tell you how far in the minority Xan's views are. Like didymos1120 suggested if they really are her views.