118 réponses à ce sujet

[Mystranna Kelteel]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
To your first statement I'd point you to my codex coment. The Geth aren't sentient/sapient because of any amount of evidence I can provide (Even though it clearly shows it) the Geth are sentient/sapient because they are. You can argue that in the real world a similar situation would be debatable but we're talking about the ME universe and in the ME univers the Geth are sentient/sapient because the codex is written by the developers of the game and if they say the Geth in their game are sentient/sapient like everyone else than thats the end of the story.

If you listen to the way Tali talks about the Geth in ME1 she states that when the Geth gained sentience that they were alive. She states this because she says the Geth were slaves at that point, she didn't say they were a tool or that they were animals she said that they were slaves. The way the quarians view the Geth in a whole seems to be that the Geth are living beings, they simply see them as evil living beings. Xan doesn't see them as alive but that doesn't mean that the Quarians as a people do. To date the only quarian who has ever said that the Geth are just machines is Xan no one else has ever said anything like that.

It is BioWare's baby in the end, but that doesn't mean they are always right no matter what.  The codex also specifically says the asari are female, yet Chud would have you believe they are not.  There are such things as plot holes and lore inconsistencies, and arguing logical conclusions against "the codex is flawless because BioWare says so" is something I feel is a worthy pursuit.

We don't know what the entirety of the quarian opinion divide.  Rael had a whole team of scientists who beleive the geth were tools, or that experimenting on them was perfectly fine to take back their homeworld.  Zen is on the Admiralty board and arguably a very respected individual because of it.  The evidence shows that the quarians are seriously split in their logic and beleifs about the geth, regardless of how many specific characters voice their own belief outright.

[axl99]

I would have thought that regardless of whether Rael experimented on sentient beings or had kept them under control, it'd have been the simple fact he activated geth in the vicinity of the Quarian flotilla. He ultimately endangered the fleet and if it weren't for Shepard eliminating the last of them on board the Alarei, the geth would have called in for back up or worse.

[Bamboozalist]

@Dean but the problem and the fallacy come from the fact that her research on the geth and AI and her personal feelings about them do not relate to one another.

Xen is sees them as something they created and therefore their sapience is irrelevant to her because they belong to the Quarians in her mind. It's like a **** justifying his horrible experiments by saying that jews aren't really people. In terms of her character and personality she's not exactly the most credible judge. Does she know a lot about AI and the Geth? Yes. However she inherently considers synthetic non-sapients simply becauase they're synthetic and made by the Quarians. Same thing for Tali's dad. Tali is only a credible because, she's backed up by the codex, which while not accurate in terms of past data, is accurate for current events meaning that the Geth are at least considered sapient on the galactic stage.

[didymos1120]

axl99 wrote...

I would have thought that regardless of whether Rael experimented on sentient beings or had kept them under control, it'd have been the simple fact he activated geth in the vicinity of the Quarian flotilla.

If you watch the "turn in" version of events, two things happen:

1. Shep says Rael activated geth.  Lots of gasps and murmuring and suchlike.
2. Shep plays the recording of Rael ordering another geth built and him saying to drop security precautions if necessary for their tests. A big component of that security was restricting geth networking from reaching Morning War levels (and of course, that's exactly what relaxing those protocols resulted in, at which point the Alarei was hosed).  The latter gets a big shocked "Ohhhh!" from the crowd.

How should we interpret that?  Got me, but it's far from clear that it was the mere activation alone that condemned Rael in the eyes of the Fleet, though they were definitely not happy about that in and of itself.

Modifié par didymos1120, 06 janvier 2011 - 05:14 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Bamboozalist wrote...

@Dean but the problem and the fallacy come from the fact that her research on the geth and AI and her personal feelings about them do not relate to one another.

And why shouldn't they? Why should her research not shape her opinion of the Geth, if it supports it? You are positing that her initial opinion of the geth shapes her interpretation of her research, whereas it can easily be the other way around, and that her initial opinion could have been correct from the start.

Xen is sees them as something they created and therefore their sapience is irrelevant to her because they belong to the Quarians in her mind.

No, Xen sees them as something they created, AND that they aren't sapient at all. It's not that they aren't sapient because they were created by the Geth, it's simply that the Geth aren't anything but complex tools run amock.

It's like a **** justifying his horrible experiments by saying that jews aren't really people.

Except that in this case, she could well be completely correct, in which case it could be like a **** justifying horrible experiments on Soveit tanks on account that they aren't people.

Being a **** has nothing to do with whether the object of comparison fits a model or not.

In terms of her character and personality she's not exactly the most credible judge. Does she know a lot about AI and the Geth? Yes. However she inherently considers synthetic non-sapients simply becauase they're synthetic and made by the Quarians. Same thing for Tali's dad.

Where in the game does it say that they consider the Geth non-sapient because they were created by the Quarians, as opposed to that the Geth are non-sapient because they are non-sapient, and being created by the Quarians is an accessory fact of history? 

Tali is only a credible because, she's backed up by the codex, which while not accurate in terms of past data, is accurate for current events meaning that the Geth are at least considered sapient on the galactic stage.

Besides the fact that the Codex is not an omniscient or always accurate, you're resorting to your own logical fallacy at this point: argumentum ad populum, or an appeal to the majority.

Whether a lot of the galaxy considers them sapient (which is not clear in and of itself, not least because the majority of the galaxy has absolutely no interaction or exposure to the geth from which to make any informed conclusion) is completely irrelevant to what the Geth really are. This is the same majority of the galaxy, after all, that doesn't believe in the existence or threat of the Reapers. The list of popularly-believed misconceptions across human history alone, of course, is simply too long to list.

While democracy is overall a great form of government, and I fully support it, it's a very lousy way of deciding facts. A thousand ignorant people versus one lonely scientist who is unpopular but right is still a thousand wrong people. Being the minority voice does not mean you are wrong, let alone when you are a rare authority figure on a subject.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 janvier 2011 - 05:26 .

[Bamboozalist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Stop splitting my quotes up because it makes it hard to delete them so I don't chain quote damn it!

Xen is pretty clear that she never considered the Geth sapient and never will. It's her personality, that's the problem. She makes it clear that she views the Geth as tools who should be put under the rightful control of the Quarians again. Also Soviet tanks are not capable of complex thoughts and actions, non-existent Soviet death bots would be the proper analogy. Xen is also the only admiral who thinks this, Rael and Han both only care about taking back the homeworld, Shala is moderate and goes with the majority, and Qwib Qwib considers them the Quarian's "children". Also in terms of experience with Geth AI, Tali has tons of hands on expeirence with Geth and their networking/AI since before ME1 and she considers them sapient so knowing about how Geth AI work doesn't seem to be a deciding factor on whether or not a character considers them sapient.

As for the codex, it would be ad populum if the codex was Mass Effect's version of wikipedia, which it's not. It's pretty much an accredited encyclopedia. That's why things like the truth about the Reapers aren't in it because that's not exactly something that is widely known through the current galactic scientific community. The Geth however would be something the scientifc community would talk about, especially with all the repercussions of the Geth uprising.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Stop splitting my quotes up because it makes it hard to delete them so I don't chain quote damn it!

Get over it and learn to quote. It's easy: quote and /quote, inside brackets like these [].

Xen is pretty clear that she never considered the Geth sapient and never will. It's her personality, that's the problem.

You're putting the cart before the horse. Of course it's going to be problematic when someone doesn't agree with you.

She makes it clear that she views the Geth as tools who should be put under the rightful control of the Quarians again. Also Soviet tanks are not capable of complex thoughts and actions, non-existent Soviet death bots would be the proper analogy.

More relevantly, Soviet tanks don't feel pain or have real emotions. Neither do geth.

Xen is also the only admiral who thinks this, Rael and Han both only care about taking back the homeworld, Shala is moderate and goes with the majority, and Qwib Qwib considers them the Quarian's "children".

Thinks what: that the Geth aren't sentient, or that the geth should be reclaimed?

Moderate or not, Shala gives no position on Geth sapience. Rael's views on their sentience/not-sentient are never clarified, nor are Han's, who's given no sign of caring one way or another past the fact that they're still the enemy. The only person who takes the poisiton about Geth as sentients with rights would be Qwib Qwib... a minority of one.

Also in terms of experience with Geth AI, Tali has tons of hands on expeirence with Geth and their networking/AI since before ME1 and she considers them sapient so knowing about how Geth AI work doesn't seem to be a deciding factor on whether or not a character considers them sapient.

As a soldier, I may be called to shoot people. That doesn't make me an expert on mental psychology. Tali's hands-on experience has been fighting and killing Geth, and salvaging parts. Not research/study. She's as much of an AI expert as Kal

As for the codex, it would be ad populum if the codex was Mass Effect's version of wikipedia, which it's not. It's pretty much an accredited encyclopedia. That's why things like the truth about the Reapers aren't in it because that's not exactly something that is widely known through the current galactic scientific community. The Geth however would be something the scientifc community would talk about, especially with all the repercussions of the Geth uprising.

A race that no one has been able to give dedicated study over a working specimen for hundreds of years is going to be well studied? No one's even captured an intact geth before Legion comes around. The entire hope of Tali's ME1 Pilgramige gift is that no one, Quarian or otherwise, understands the Geth that well.

The Codex is Mass Effect's public popular-history. It is not a technical encyclopedia, or the insider's guide to what really is. It can be wrong, has been wrong, certainly will be proven wrong in the future, and is not an overriding word against any in-game thoughts that seems to contradict it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 janvier 2011 - 07:20 .

[naledgeborn]

Winterfly wrote...

Anyone finding a "race" of robots sentient and equal to humans or other organic races must reconsider. The Geth have no feelings and no understanding of the concept "individual".

Mighty dangerous to "welcome" them into the council. The Quarians did the right thing when they saw what was going to happen.

No question. What is a better question is; would it really be smart to antagonize them NOW after they've had 300 centuries of isolated evolution? I say let them build their "Dyson sphere" and assertively invite them to get the hell out of "Dodge". That or join the Reapers in synthetic hell.

[Pacifien]

naledgeborn wrote...
No question. What is a better question is; would it really be smart to antagonize them NOW after they've had 300 centuries of isolated evolution? I say let them build their "Dyson sphere" and assertively invite them to get the hell out of "Dodge". That or join the Reapers in synthetic hell.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[Bamboozalist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
No I'm not going to get over it because it's annoying, extra effort that I have to do, and it's late.

The problem isn't that I don't agree with her that it's her character. Her defining feature is that she wants to reclaim the Geth and she views them as tools for the Quarians. That's her character and that's the problem with her as a credible source of Geth being sapient. If the codex isn't credible than neither is Xen because her research on Geth AI doesn't involve active linked Geth and their sapience, it only involves how Geth link and ways to control it.

The facts are that the Quarian's put down the Geth because they "evolved" past their programing, unless you mean to tell me that the most brilliant minds in VI / AI research didn't program in safeguards and limits to the Geth's problem solving programing. Computers can only do what they're programed to do, no matter how complex the program it has to operate with in the peramiters. The reasons the Quarian's used for attacking the Geth was that a sentient race could not be used for slave labor and would eventually rise up against them, meaning that the people who made them considered them at least sentient.

The Geth are actively "building their own future" that alone gives them sapience to me. Do I consider their sapience the same as a humans? No, just like I don't consider a Krogan the same as a human.

[naledgeborn]

Pacifien wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...
No question. What is a better question is; would it really be smart to antagonize them NOW after they've had 300 centuries of isolated evolution? I say let them build their "Dyson sphere" and assertively invite them to get the hell out of "Dodge". That or join the Reapers in synthetic hell.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Sure.... Isn't that what a forum is for? Opinions are full of sh-, everybody has 'em

[Xilizhra]

As a soldier, I may be called to shoot people. That doesn't make me an expert on mental psychology. Tali's hands-on experience has been fighting and killing Geth, and salvaging parts. Not research/study. She's as much of an AI expert as Kal

Also hacking them, at least in a minor sense.



And I reiterate, since free will is completely unquantifiable, there's no reason to believe that the geth have less of it than organics do.

[Keldian]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
No I'm not going to get over it because it's annoying, extra effort that I have to do, and it's late.

The problem isn't that I don't agree with her that it's her character. Her defining feature is that she wants to reclaim the Geth and she views them as tools for the Quarians. That's her character and that's the problem with her as a credible source of Geth being sapient. If the codex isn't credible than neither is Xen because her research on Geth AI doesn't involve active linked Geth and their sapience, it only involves how Geth link and ways to control it.

The facts are that the Quarian's put down the Geth because they "evolved" past their programing, unless you mean to tell me that the most brilliant minds in VI / AI research didn't program in safeguards and limits to the Geth's problem solving programing. Computers can only do what they're programed to do, no matter how complex the program it has to operate with in the peramiters. The reasons the Quarian's used for attacking the Geth was that a sentient race could not be used for slave labor and would eventually rise up against them, meaning that the people who made them considered them at least sentient.

The Geth are actively "building their own future" that alone gives them sapience to me. Do I consider their sapience the same as a humans? No, just like I don't consider a Krogan the same as a human.

I gonna stay on the "It's still just a robot" side of this. I mean, if I was given the coice to kill a Krogan to save one of those "good" geth or kill the geth to save the Krogan, I'm sure as hell going to waste that peice of hardware to save an actually living creature.

Modifié par Keldian, 06 janvier 2011 - 08:22 .

[Siansonea]

War crime=something that is against a society's laws, even in the context of war. The fact that Rael'Zorah would have been charged with high treason for his actions is enough to qualify those actions as a war crime. It's that simple. His actions have been stated, whether or not the geth are sentient/sapient or whether any of us agree with the quarian Admiralty's laws is not relevant. They find Rael'Zorah's actions to be against their laws, and serious enough that he and his daughter are under a cloud of suspicion and his daughter is charged with treason in absentia.

[didymos1120]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
Quarians consider Geth to be "mechanisms" without "souls".

Seriously? You're using a 300+ year old mp3 of a quarian geth-owner (one who was quite clearly worried that her geth was no longer just a useful machine) as inidicative of what the majority of modern quarians believe?  That's an...interesting approach to public opinion polling.

[Siansonea]

Keldian wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
No I'm not going to get over it because it's annoying, extra effort that I have to do, and it's late.

The problem isn't that I don't agree with her that it's her character. Her defining feature is that she wants to reclaim the Geth and she views them as tools for the Quarians. That's her character and that's the problem with her as a credible source of Geth being sapient. If the codex isn't credible than neither is Xen because her research on Geth AI doesn't involve active linked Geth and their sapience, it only involves how Geth link and ways to control it.

The facts are that the Quarian's put down the Geth because they "evolved" past their programing, unless you mean to tell me that the most brilliant minds in VI / AI research didn't program in safeguards and limits to the Geth's problem solving programing. Computers can only do what they're programed to do, no matter how complex the program it has to operate with in the peramiters. The reasons the Quarian's used for attacking the Geth was that a sentient race could not be used for slave labor and would eventually rise up against them, meaning that the people who made them considered them at least sentient.

The Geth are actively "building their own future" that alone gives them sapience to me. Do I consider their sapience the same as a humans? No, just like I don't consider a Krogan the same as a human.

I gonna stay on the "It's still just a robot" side of this. I mean, if I was given the coice to kill a Krogan to save one of those "good" geth or kill the geth to save the Krogan, I'm sure as hell going to waste that peice of hardware to save an actually living creature.

Your personal preferences don't really have anything to do with quarian law, however. Rael'Zorah is still considered a war criminal, even if you disagree with the Admiralty's laws and regardless of your feelings about the geth and their value compared to organic creatures.

[Pacifien]

But walk around if you present the evidence at the trial and you get entirely different responses from the populace. Some are disgusted and feel Rael'Zorah got what he deserved. I think some were glad that Tali'Zorah wasn't to be blamed. I can't quite remember how it all went down when you present the evidence.

[Someone With Mass]

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 06 janvier 2011 - 08:56 .

[nicolom]

Rael Zorah peforming weapon tests on sentient beings isn't why the Admiralty Board labels him a traitor and strips his name from every ship he ever has served on. Since the Geth uprising 300 years ago, tampering with AI is frowned opoun by the Quarians. Not only did Rael Zorah do just that - he also bypassed important (and according to Tali, also "sacred") safety protocols that even pre-dates the flee from their homeworlds. In other words, he peformed the same hubris which forced the Quarians into exile, forced them to live the lifes of homeless and scavengers, and to imprison themselves in environmental suits for all eternity, thus threatening the already fragile existence of the Quarian race. I'm pretty sure the Admiralty Board could care less if their century old nemesis had its "feelings hurt".



Also, Rael Zorah's actions being wrong due to violating some sort of basic right for all sapient beings is based on the assumption that such rights exist. That is a philosphical issue which very much remains open to discussion and debate amongst academics and scholars.

[primero holodon]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Kristofer1 wrote...

I wouldnt call the geth sapient. just advanced computers.

Legion shows that the are more than just a computer.

Legion also says that he is a special platform developed with higher mental capacity than the other individual geth.

[didymos1120]

primero holodon wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...

Kristofer1 wrote...

I wouldnt call the geth sapient. just advanced computers.

Legion shows that the are more than just a computer.

Legion also says that he is a special platform developed with higher mental capacity than the other individual geth.

This is a specious argument: the geth gain sapience by being in proximity, and can do so even when distributed amongst multiple platforms.  There were a bunch of networked geth on the Alarei, and they also had a hub, which boosts their capacity even further.  All of which you can learn from Tali or Legion.

[Nashiktal]

Whats all this talk about warcrimes? The only thing Rael was doing at the time was testing advanced hacking techniques in hopes of aiding a war effort. Not like he was taking an assault rifle and blasting the geth in the groin with them. At best he is disrupting the geths processing for a few minutes before they fix themselves.



The only real crime rael committed was removing the "safeties" of his project out of impatience. Doing so in the middle of the fleet was doubly bad.