118 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
I challenge you to find one single Quarian except Admiral Koris (who is considered a nutjob/coward by every Quarian who ever expressed an opinion on him) who ever shows any ethical concern about wiping out/re-enslaving the Geth. I can't find any.

OK. No problem. Dipping into my handy collection of ripped dialogue files, I find these lines (and I've checked every last one: they are in the game):

Background Female lines:

"Rael'Zorah is a monster."
"I hate to say it, but those geth did the right thing when they killed Rael."

Background Male lines:

"Rael'Zorah is a sick bastard."
"I want to beat the geth as badly as anyone, but Rael'Zorah went too far."

I know these go together (i.e. they're both respectively part of same conversation sequences) based on file numbering, and they're clearly not talking about just activating some geth platforms.


BTW, Qwib Qwib's an Admiral.  If he's so univerally regarded as nuts, as you imply with your sample size of... what one? Two? Anyway, how'd he manage that?  And how'd he score his two flanking babes?

Modifié par didymos1120, 06 janvier 2011 - 10:41 .

[Pacifien]

Nashiktal wrote...
Whats all this talk about warcrimes?

That would be Tali. Tali specifically calls it a war crime. Specifically, Shepard points out that Rael'Zorah as deliberately networking the geth to sapience to conduct his weapons experiments. Tali says this breaks their most sacred laws predating the quarian's flight from the homeworld and says it would make Rael the "worst war criminial in our people's history."

Not being a master of audio files, I actually replayed the mission to see how the quarians reacted after you turn over the evidence. Various quarians do say the four lines that didymos presents as well as "I can't believe Tali'Zorah betrayed her father to save herself" and "I'm glad Tali'Zorah is innocent. I can't imagine what she's going through."

Also, Daro'Xen says how dare you reveal the evidence to the public, because now she will be unable to continue the experiments. Han'Gerrel is upset because revealing the evidence hurts his efforts to raise a war against the geth, and specifically mentions those known as Rael's allies will have a difficult time of it for awhile. The captain of the Rayya, Kar'Danna, says he can't believe Rael would endanger the fleet and says Tali's father is lucky to already be dead.

iOnlySignIn wrote...
Well, Daro Xen and Han Garrel specifically called him cowardly.

Yes, that's what warmongers tend to call peacemongers.

[Nightwriter]

didymos1120 wrote...

OK. No problem. Dipping into my handy collection of ripped dialogue files, I find these lines (and I've checked every last one: they are in the game):

Background Female lines:

"Rael'Zorah is a monster."
"I hate to say it, but those geth did the right thing when they killed Rael."

Background Male lines:

"Rael'Zorah is a sick bastard."
"I want to beat the geth as badly as anyone, but Rael'Zorah went too far."

What. The. Hell.

Why was that cut. There must be some reason.

Well, in any case, I'm inclined to say cut dialogue has suggestive weight but not definitive weight. I mean there was cut content declaring Pallin dead when he wasn't dead at the time at all.

And... why the hell was that cut??

[Aimi]

Nightwriter wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

OK. No problem. Dipping into my handy collection of ripped dialogue files, I find these lines (and I've checked every last one: they are in the game):

Background Female lines:

"Rael'Zorah is a monster."
"I hate to say it, but those geth did the right thing when they killed Rael."

Background Male lines:

"Rael'Zorah is a sick bastard."
"I want to beat the geth as badly as anyone, but Rael'Zorah went too far."

What. The. Hell.

Why was that cut. There must be some reason.

Well, in any case, I'm inclined to say cut dialogue has suggestive weight but not definitive weight. I mean there was cut content declaring Pallin dead when he wasn't dead at the time at all.

And... why the hell was that cut??

It wasn't cut dialog.  It's in the game.

Modifié par daqs, 07 janvier 2011 - 03:13 .

[TMA LIVE]

daqs wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

OK. No problem. Dipping into my handy collection of ripped dialogue files, I find these lines (and I've checked every last one: they are in the game):

Background Female lines:

"Rael'Zorah is a monster."
"I hate to say it, but those geth did the right thing when they killed Rael."

Background Male lines:

"Rael'Zorah is a sick bastard."
"I want to beat the geth as badly as anyone, but Rael'Zorah went too far."

What. The. Hell.

Why was that cut. There must be some reason.

Well, in any case, I'm inclined to say cut dialogue has suggestive weight but not definitive weight. I mean there was cut content declaring Pallin dead when he wasn't dead at the time at all.

And... why the hell was that cut??

It wasn't cut dialog.  It's in the game.

Where? I've never heard it.

Anyways, I wish we actually saw footage of what he was doing. We are told he was doing weapons tests on active geth, but I'd still rather see it.

[Aimi]

TMA LIVE wrote...

daqs wrote...

It wasn't cut dialog.  It's in the game.

Where? I've never heard it.

Anyways, I wish we actually saw footage of what he was doing. We are told he was doing weapons tests on active geth, but I'd still rather see it.

Have you ever brought up the evidence at the trial, or did you pull a cover-up every time?  And if you bring up the evidence, do you hang around to talk to the quarians on the Rayya and listen to what the others have to say instead of pressing F to end mission?

[Nightwriter]

I've never heard it either. I thought when didy said "ripped dialogue" he meant "cut dialogue". Since he is the Yoda of cut dialogue and all.

[TMA LIVE]

daqs wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

daqs wrote...

It wasn't cut dialog.  It's in the game.

Where? I've never heard it.

Anyways, I wish we actually saw footage of what he was doing. We are told he was doing weapons tests on active geth, but I'd still rather see it.

Have you ever brought up the evidence at the trial, or did you pull a cover-up every time?  And if you bring up the evidence, do you hang around to talk to the quarians on the Rayya and listen to what the others have to say instead of pressing F to end mission?

I did it once on a playthrough, but if it's specifice to the "evidence" version, then maybe I missed it.

[Pacifien]

To get the dialogue, you have to turn in the evidence.

[didymos1120]

Nightwriter wrote...

I've never heard it either. I thought when didy said "ripped dialogue" he meant "cut dialogue". Since he is the Yoda of cut dialogue and all.

"Ripped" as in "ripping audio from [source medium]".  In this case, the ME2 packages.  Also, I did say that it was in the game in my post.

[didymos1120]

Pacifien wrote...

To get the dialogue, you have to turn in the evidence.

Yeah, that.  Which I could have mentioned, I guess, but I just assumed it was understood given the subject.

Modifié par didymos1120, 07 janvier 2011 - 03:45 .

[Pacifien]

didymos1120 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
To get the dialogue, you have to turn in the evidence.

Yeah, that.  Which I could have mentioned, I guess, but I just assumed it was understood given the subject.

I am sad that I followed up your initial post by actually saying I had heard the files in the game, but apparently my word is no good. I guess people just need to turn the evidence in themselves if they want the truth.

[Siansonea]

This topic really boils down to the fact that Rael'Zorah broke quarian law. Doesn't matter which law, why he broke it, what the intent of the law was. The quarians decided he broke the law, and suspected Tali of lawbreaking as well. What Rael'Zorah did that was "so bad" was BREAKING QUARIAN LAW. If quarians could be accused of treason for a crime that humans would find minor, like jaywalking, then that's their prerogative. We can't apply our ideas of the validity of those laws, because we aren't quarians and their laws are really none of our concern.

[282xvl]

Siansonea II wrote...

This topic really boils down to the fact that Rael'Zorah broke quarian law. Doesn't matter which law, why he broke it, what the intent of the law was. The quarians decided he broke the law, and suspected Tali of lawbreaking as well. What Rael'Zorah did that was "so bad" was BREAKING QUARIAN LAW. If quarians could be accused of treason for a crime that humans would find minor, like jaywalking, then that's their prerogative. We can't apply our ideas of the validity of those laws, because we aren't quarians and their laws are really none of our concern.

The UN unilaterally declares "universal" laws all the time. Specifically applicable to this case would be the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, upon which I gather the idea of "experiments on (questionably) sapient life forms" being wrongful is based. Do they have no business doing so? By this logic Iran should not be frowned upon for hanging lesbians or stoning adulterers or shooting apostates etc. And by extension if the ME2 UN substitute can be said to be the Council, then their "universal" law regarding AI is quite clear-cut. It's existence is illegal (like the Iranian lesbians) and so may be, legally, executed.

In this ruling the Council seems to be refusing to acknowledge the "sapience" despite the "intelligence" of AI. AI has been made an exception by law to the universal rights of sapient beings in galactic law.

Morally ambiguous indeed but so are a lot of historical council decisions that were most likey for the better, ranging from small housekeeping issues to galaxy-saving ones. The Geth are probably just as dangerous as the Reapers in the long run especially if their tech development advances faster than organic races can keep up with.

[FlintlockJazz]

282xvl wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

This topic really boils down to the fact that Rael'Zorah broke quarian law. Doesn't matter which law, why he broke it, what the intent of the law was. The quarians decided he broke the law, and suspected Tali of lawbreaking as well. What Rael'Zorah did that was "so bad" was BREAKING QUARIAN LAW. If quarians could be accused of treason for a crime that humans would find minor, like jaywalking, then that's their prerogative. We can't apply our ideas of the validity of those laws, because we aren't quarians and their laws are really none of our concern.

The UN unilaterally declares "universal" laws all the time. Specifically applicable to this case would be the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, upon which I gather the idea of "experiments on (questionably) sapient life forms" being wrongful is based. Do they have no business doing so? By this logic Iran should not be frowned upon for hanging lesbians or stoning adulterers or shooting apostates etc. And by extension if the ME2 UN substitute can be said to be the Council, then their "universal" law regarding AI is quite clear-cut. It's existence is illegal (like the Iranian lesbians) and so may be, legally, executed.

In this ruling the Council seems to be refusing to acknowledge the "sapience" despite the "intelligence" of AI. AI has been made an exception by law to the universal rights of sapient beings in galactic law.

Morally ambiguous indeed but so are a lot of historical council decisions that were most likey for the better, ranging from small housekeeping issues to galaxy-saving ones. The Geth are probably just as dangerous as the Reapers in the long run especially if their tech development advances faster than organic races can keep up with.

Actually the Council's position on AI is that it's creation is illegal, not that they should be killed on sight.  The Quarians tried to kill the Geth before the Council found out they had been made, had they not done so it would most likely have been the Quarians who would have faced the legal punishment of the Council, not the Geth.  On the contrary, after the Geth retreated behind the Veil the Council attempted to make contact repeatedly with them.

The Council has never denied the sapience of the Geth or of any synthetic life, on the contrary it acknowledges that AI can have sapience by making laws against it's creation.  If AI cannot have sapience then there would be no fear of it, a real world analogy of which would be when an English Queen refused to make lesbianism illegal because she 'could not see how it was even possible for two women to have sex'.

[CoolCR]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...
I challenge you to find one single Quarian except Admiral Koris (who is considered a nutjob/coward by every Quarian who ever expressed an opinion on him) who ever shows any ethical concern about wiping out/re-enslaving the Geth. I can't find any.

OK. No problem. Dipping into my handy collection of ripped dialogue files, I find these lines (and I've checked every last one: they are in the game):

Background Female lines:

"Rael'Zorah is a monster."
"I hate to say it, but those geth did the right thing when they killed Rael."

Background Male lines:

"Rael'Zorah is a sick bastard."
"I want to beat the geth as badly as anyone, but Rael'Zorah went too far."

I know these go together (i.e. they're both respectively part of same conversation sequences) based on file numbering, and they're clearly not talking about just activating some geth platforms.


BTW, Qwib Qwib's an Admiral.  If he's so univerally regarded as nuts, as you imply with your sample size of... what one? Two? Anyway, how'd he manage that?  And how'd he score his two flanking babes?

Wow, it was unwise for me to challenge the Master of ME Audio Files. I do apologize. :-)

But I honestly didn't ever hear those lines in game. And they are likely two lines among dozens, which shows that Quarian civilians who show sympathy for the Geth is a small minority, just like Admiral Koris is the minority on the Board.

Well, Daro Xen and Han Garrel specifically called him cowardly. I would think Rael Zorah wasn't friendly with him at all, either (Given Koris's opinion of Rael). Admiral Raan doesn't express a strong opinion on anyone. So if the Admirals are democratically elected/receive democratic support (as you seem to suggest with "how'd he manage that"), approximately 60%~80% of Quarians would consider him a coward/nutcase for sympathizing with the Geth.

We should keep in mind that Admiral Koris is quite political. He does not always present himself as a Friend of the Geth, because he knows most Quarians would find it abhorrent. In fact, if you bring Legion onto the Migrant Fleet, he is the one who shows the most hostile attitude.

Tali know what the Quarians will say if what he has done is brought to light thats why she asks that you dont put the files in the spot light.

If you ignore her and do it anyway then yes you get the Rael'Zorah what a crazy dude audio if you dont though you get the Well i Guess Tali was inocent after all audio playing which is why you dont hear there how many tali betrayers are there not many im guessing as shouting at the Admirals is far more fun.

From what i have seen of the Quarians most of them dont know how bad there situation actual is, but still i dont think it matters to the average quarian how they get home Hack the geth and get them to leave or become domestic servants again, Destory them in a massive confrontaion, Negotiate a piece treaty I get the feeling who ever does it however they do it if an Admiral get them home he or she will be a hero. (The ends justify the means but if you botch it get your crew killed and endager everyone around you well its massively hypocritical but your a war criminal and a fool)

Just drop the audio bomb on them and see where it takes you.

[xxLDZxx]

The quarians dindt make the ai, the pre geth where networking vi.



They made them self to a Ai.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I believe that the main crime that Rael committed as far as the quarians are concerned is that he endangered the fleet by bringing the quarians' worst enemies right to their doorstep and recklessly activating them, and in doing so cost many lives. Whether or not the Geth are sentient, I don't think that Rael experimenting on them caused a great deal of sympathy for his subjects from the Migrant Fleet.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 07 janvier 2011 - 02:27 .