93 réponses à ce sujet

[Bozorgmehr]

IMPORTANT: All this is CONCEPT, not a completed product. Things like cooldowns, power-effects etc. are not important at this point - ignore those things please.

IMPORTANT: To NOT make this CONCEPT too complicated I only use examples to get the point through, please respond only to the concept - don't go and think a few steps ahead (=worst thing one can do when designing something new) - clear your mind

Vanguards:

- They can use Charge, Pull, Shockwave,  two Ammo Powers and bonus power. Both Ammo Powers are passive powers - they are not related to this thread - please ignore them. Bonus power can be anything - ignore them too.

- Vanguards are supposed to be a Combat-Biotic Hybrid. In ME2 they are not - they are excellent CQC combatants, but no Biotics whatsoever IMHO. Vanguards Charge, Charge, and Charge thus only (actively) utilizing one out of five powers available to them. If you think this is right - this thread is not for you.

- Why do Vanguards Charge all day long? Because Charge is 10x more powerful and effective than their other powers. Why? Because Charge isn't just a power, Charge is 6 powers in one:

Heavy Charge:

-1- It teleports the Vanguard to its target - [movement power]
-2- During Charge animation, the Vanguard is untouchable (you don't take damage while Charging and you can dogde missiles and powers) - [defensive power]
-3- Hitting the target triggers Throw effect , staggering protected-, knocking down unprotected targets - [Throw power]
-4- Coming out of Charge triggers time dilation - [ARush / Sniper-Zoom power]
-5- Charge guarantees an instant kill (all normal enemies will die easily at point blank shotgun range; points 3 and 4 will help) - [insta-killing power]
-6- And you get your shield back - [Barrier power]

What was BW thinking; designing Charge to be part of a Global CD system? How can something like Pull or Shockwave (or basically all the other (non-unique) powers possibly compete with this one? You must be out of your mind using the other powers often (or you don't like Charge, but then you've picked the wrong class to begin with).

^THIS^ is the PROBLEM - The incredible in-balance between powers.

Vanguard, Soldier, and Sentinel's unique powers are so massively over-powered (compared to the other powers these classes have access to) that they break the Global Cooldown system. I'm looking for ways to change this; to make the other powers viable alternatives so Vanguards (Soldiers and Sentinels) become more than just one-(super)-power-spammers.

Adding more powers and/or weapons doesn't help. Those abilites have to match Charge's power to compete. I don't want to give classes multiple I WIN powers. Carnage has been mentioned by some, although it's great in ME1, it wouldn't change a thing if this power was added to the ME2 system. You cannot use Carnage when Charging multiple enemies, just like you can't use Pull or Bonus Power either. Other powers can only be used BEFORE Charging (setting up a Warp Explosion - for example (Carnage could be added if available)) AND after the hard part of the fight is over, i.e. to finish already defeated enemies. In between Vanguard's only option is to Charge and keep Charging to stay alive.

The stuff below (I posted earlier) is an example how I believe this problem can be solved. I repeat; don't think too far ahead, ignore cooldowns like they are now, ignore Barrier's current amount of shield boost etc. all these things don't matter now - they are of later concern when testing would determine feasable values to  make it work without gimping or over-powering classes. This is just a concept, I used Barrier as a substitte for Charge's Shield-Regen - try to look at Barrier like that and not the ME2 version.

►Example 1

First things first; I very much like what BW did to the combat system in ME2, it's a major improvement (ME1). But I think it's fair to say some powers vastly over-power/out-perform others thus basically forcing the player to use that single power again and again and again. Using one of the other available powers is usually not the best option. I don't like this, games like ME2, aiming to be a Power/Shooter-hybrid, must have options and options are slim in ME2.

To simplify things a little, I ignored the (most OPed class) Soldiers and the ('weakest classes') Adepts & Engineers. I did this because the Soldier only has one useful power (ARush), and the Adept and Engineer already are fairly well balanced (power wise), they can use multiple powers instead of one 'super' power. Soldier, Adept and Engineer are also the true specialists (combat, biotics, tech). The 3 hybrid classes (Vanguard, Infiltrator and Sentinel) are the aim here.

Vanguard

Vanguards are supposed to be skilled combatants (i.e. shotgun specialist) and skilled biotics. The ME2 Vanguard isn't a biotic at all. Its only 2 biotic powers (Pull and Shockwave) are ignored by most players and are not very useful. Charge is labeled a biotic power, but it has little / nothing to do with Mass Effect Biotics IMHO. The only power a Vanguard needs is Charge. Inferno Ammo is great due to its CC effect and Passive gives some minor bonuses but even without these two skills, the Vanguard's playstyle would remain the same (Charge - SG - Charge - SG - Charge etc etc).

Charge is an incredibly cool power and I don't want to limit its uses at all. I do, however, want some options playing a Vanguard. I also like to keep the Global Cooldown system, it allows fast-pace (non-pausing) gameplay.

I propose putting Charge on a separate cooldown, it works exactly the way it is, but without the shield regen. The regen makes Charge too powerful and it doesn't make sense that ME2's most offensive power is also one of best defensive powers in the game - this is wrong.

Charge on a separate cooldown opens up all kinds of possibilities. Take this build for example: Charge, Pull, Throw, Barrier (and some Ammo/Combat powers). This build has options, you can Charge enemies (Charge's cooldown starts) but you'll have the other biotic powers available and can use them immediately after Charging. So when taking heavy fire or with lots of enemies around, Vanguard can use/activate Barrier to stay alive, but they can also use Pull and/or Throw to CC enemies to stay alive. With Charge on separate cooldown, Vanguards can Charge just as frequently as it is, but they need to use the other powers too > options & choices become available. No need to Charge an enemy right in front of you to restore shield (=stupid move IMHO), simply use Barrier if shields are down, or Pull/Throw to deal with that enemy (plus having the option to Charge in/out of danger simultaneous).

This makes Vanguards much more versatile (and an actual biotic) without gimping its main ability. Cooldowns have to be tweaked a little though, like reducing Barrier's cooldown and increasing Pull/Throw's for balance.

Infiltrator

The Infiltrator ought to be a Tech and Sniper Rifle expert, the ME2 Infiltrator is a Cloak spammer - not a skilled technician. Like Vanguards, Cloak is the power that is used most, if not, all the time. Cloak should be on separate cooldown, like Charge, and using Cloak not only stops regen, it also removes shield completely (no need to have shields while Cloaked anyway, enemies can't see you and don't shoot you). Like Vanguards, Infiltrators need to have access to a defensive power (GSB for example):

Infiltrators can be played the 'traditional' way; Cloak > get into a good sniping position, and start sniping enemies at (long) range. Being able to use other tech powers (even while Cloaked) will allow similtaneous sniping and power usage (Hack enemies, Incinerate etc).

The CQC Infiltrator can use Cloak to get into point blank range, but with multiple enemies around (and no shield) things can get ugly. Like Vanguard's Barrier, the Infiltrator's defensive power can be used right away (even while still being invisible). They can still be played the ME2 way, but they can also chose to ignore shield boost and instead use tech skills to CC enemies to get the job done. Possible build: Cloak, AI Hacking, GSB, Neural Shock (and some additional tech/combat/ammo powers). Cooldowns need to be tweaked for balance.

Sentinel

The ME2 Sentinel is neither a biotic nor a tech character, it's a tank. Spamming Tech Armor is their way of life, other skills are not used often (and not needed at all). This doesn't look or feel like a Sentinel, they ought to be a flexible, allround class IMHO.

It's difficult to redesign the Sentinel when removing their unique skill, coz that's exactly what's needed. Sentinels should be the ultimate teamplayers, their unique power should be something which improves the entire squad, not just Shep. There are a couple of things that can be done: Sentinels could be given two cooldowns - one for biotic powers and one for tech powers; or they can use a unique power which improves squadmate powers / weapon damage, or resets their cooldown (and Sentinel's cooldown), or maybe a power boosting health/shields of the entire squad, or a combination of these skills.

Sentinels should be able to use the same biotic and tech powers available to Vanguards and Infiltrators. They should not be allowed to use specialist's powers, they are only available to the Adept and Engineer respectively.

The Sentinel requires the most work, but team-play should be the focus here. Anything boosting overall squad performance should be their trade. Maybe very fast cooldowns can help - that would make squadmate powers more effective coz with a Sentinel around, power combos can be chained almost non-stop.

-------------------------------------------------------------

►Example 2

I think it would be great to add more choices and specializing. It would be cool if you could chose how to 'build' your Vanguard. I can't see anything wrong in having the option to go all-out CQC, a completely combat specialized Vanguard without (offensive) biotic powers (ME2 Vanguard+). And the option to focus on biotic powers, the biotic specialized Vanguard can still Charge say 2-3 enemies max (but no more) but is also acapable caster - nothing like an Adept, but much better than the ME2 one.

Adepts could chose between going all-out CC; and good CC plus reasonable CQC abilities (again, nothing like the CQC Vanguard, but not that far behind the Biotic Vanguard). This would create true hybrid classes and opens lots of new ways to play and level all 6 classes (or 12 class if you want).

Maybe an "upgrade" leveling system could work; most unique powers have multiple features (like Charge, see OP). Adding new goodies (player can chose between several) to upgrade the unique power might do the trick. So the CQC Vanguard, for example, needs to invest a lot of points in Charge: to reduce its cooldown - add/improve shield-regen, add time dilation, (improving) stagger (duration), AoE etc. and doesn't have many points to
spent on other abilities. Whereas the Biotic Vanguard ends up with a less effective version of Charge, but can use some powerful biotic powers to compensate.

-------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------

Curunen's Weapon encumberance system: for full detailes click here

All classes get basic pistol (predator or some other basic pistol). Encumberance values determine how many other weapons they can carry.

Each class starts with a base value, and can fill this any way they like with the starter weapons. The class encumberance can be increased through talents, and other weapons can be used as they are found/unlocked. Encumberance increases 1 point per Passive rank, so at rank 3 (requires 6 points) you will get the extra 3 points.

Weapon encumerbance values for loadout:
1 - Pistol upgrades (carnifex, phalanx), and shuriken.
2 - Larger SMGs.
3 - Base Shotguns, ARs, and SRs (huge category).
4 - Revenant, Claymore, Widow (special weapons - soldier/infiltrator/vanguard only).
5 - Heavy Weapon.

-------Soldier-------

Base weapon encumberance of 9. Can be upgraded to 12.

Starting loadout example, Predator (0) Avenger (3) Katana (3) Mantis (3)... Total = 9
Upgraded loadout example, Carnifex (1) Revenant (4) Eviscerator (3) Viper (3)... Total = 11
Alternative, Carnifex (1) Locust (2) Claymore (4) Heavy Weapon (5)... Total = 12
Another, Predator (0) Shuriken (1) Mantis (3) Eviscerator (3) Heavy Weapon (5)... Total = 12

-------Vanguard-------

Base weapon encumberance of 6. Can be upgraded to 9.

Starting loadout example, Predator (0) Locust (2) Katana (3)... Total = 5
Upgraded loadout example, Predator (0) Tempest (2) Claymore (4) Viper (3)... Total = 9
Alternative, Carnifex (1) Eviscerator (3) Heavy Weapon (5)... Total = 9
Another, Carnifex (1) Claymore (4) Mattock (3) ... Total = 8

------Infiltrator-------

Base weapon encumberance of 6. Can be upgraded to 9.

Starting loadout example, Predator (0) Locust (2) Mantis (3)... Total = 5
Upgraded loadout example, Predator (0) Tempest (2) Widow (4) GPS (3)... Total = 9
Alternative, Carnifex (1) Viper (3) Heavy Weapon (5)... Total = 9
Another, Carnifex (1) Widow (4) Mattock (3) ... Total = 8

-------Adept & Engineer-------

Base weapon encumberance of 3. Can be upgraded to 6.

Starting loadout example, Predator (0) Locust (2)... Total = 2
Upgraded loadout example, Predator (0) Tempest (2) Katana (3)... Total = 5
Alternative, Predator (0) Mattock (3) GPS (3))... Total = 6
Another, Carnifex (1) Heavy Weapon (5) ... Total = 6

-------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------

This is an old post from another thread but a very interesting concept MHO

JaegerBane wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

I agree with the system of powers in sub-groups. Take the Vanguard with Shockwave and Pull. First, I have to put points into Shockwave before I can even get Pull. I don't want Shockwave. Or Infiltrator with AI Hacking. I don't want that either. Better to give me the choice of two tech powers for an Infiltrator, and I'll choose Incinerate and Neural
Shock. To avoid being overpowered or to keep the classes a bit different from each other still, I'd say keep certain specific class powers off the table for other classes. Only an Engineer can pick Combat Drone or AI Hacking, a Sentinel or Infiltrator can't. Only an Adept can have Singularity or Stasis, the other biotic classes can't.

I think there is some merit in that, but personally, I prefer the slot idea.

Start with the class. Each class has a passive, a class power, and a selection of biotic, combat and tech slots, the individual numbers of which depend on the class.

So, for instance, a Soldier would have their passive, AR, and four slots for combat powers. An Adept would have passive, Singularity, and four biotic slots, Engineer has passive, Drone and four tech slots.

An Infiltrator would have passive, Cloak, two tech slots and two combat slots. Vanguard would have passive, Charge, two combat and two biotic slots, Sentinel would have passive, tech armour, two tech and two biotic slots.

Obviously, doing it this way would require the Adept to be rebalanced a bit, as the current Adept derives a lot of it's worth from biotic combos rather than what specific powers they have. But other than that, we'd have a situation where people choose their class based on what they want to do but customise it so it can play in the way they prefer it to.

Discuss.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 07 janvier 2011 - 11:20 .

[Sparrow44]

Cloak also removing shields and preventing health regen would make Infiltrators more of a glass cannon. To avoid Cloak spamming you could give it a longer seperate cooldown, Barrier on Vanguard is fine but Infiltrator should have other options.

[Bozorgmehr]

Sparroww wrote...

Cloak also removing shields and preventing health regen would make Infiltrators more of a glass cannon. To avoid Cloak spamming you could give it a longer seperate cooldown, Barrier on Vanguard is fine but Infiltrator should have other options.

Infiltrator can use GSB, like Vanguard's Barrier. Shields are only needed in CQC, not somewhere at the back. Infiltrators won't be weaker than they are today, they just have options: Do I (re)activate shield, or use other powers.

[Praetor Knight]

I like the idea of having Tech and Biotic powers on separate cooldowns. Of course for gameplay balancing, the class Passives would then give different time reductions on casting with the shared powers between classes, to give variety, and I assume that the enemy AI will be improved for ME3 as well, so I'm fine without a Global Cooldown.

I also believe that Combat and Ammo powers should have a separate Cooldown (but maybe changing Ammo powers could be connected to the Tech Cooldown?).

[Aynien]

What about soldiers?Is there any way to not make them AR addicts?

Modifié par Aynien, 06 janvier 2011 - 06:14 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I like the idea of having Tech and Biotic powers on separate cooldowns. Of course for gameplay balancing, the class Passives would then give different time reductions on casting with the shared powers between classes, to give variety, and I assume that the enemy AI will be improved for ME3 as well, so I'm fine without a Global Cooldown.

Without Global CD it will be hard - if not impossible - to play without having to pause often. I like the ME2 system because it has just enough powers (and squadmate powers) to hotkey (though I like having a couple extra for Adept and Engineer). This is great for the action, pausing interferes with the overall immersion IMHO.

I also believe that Combat and Ammo powers should have a separate Cooldown (but maybe changing Ammo powers could be connected to the Tech Cooldown?).

Although I understand why BW changed ammo into powers, I don't like the idea. It's kinda stupid thinking only the Combat classes are smart enough to figure out AP Ammo works well against armor - and they need to invest 10 points to share that knowledge with their companions.

I hope they make ammo, ... ammo - everyone can use it (maybe need to pay for it, research it, or whatever, but it shouldn't be a 'power').

Aynien wrote...

What about soldiers?Is there any way to not make them AR addicts?

There are many things BW can do. Easiest thing would be to split ARush's effects; maybe making the SlowMotion the main power (on its own cd) and adding other powers; like one to increase damage, one to increase shield/health, one to boost speed to move around quickly.

ARush is too powerful and only power Soldier can use (actively) - they should have multiple powers, each with its own strength/weakness, suitable in certain situation or when using a specific weapon.

[Sparrow44]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Infiltrator can use GSB, like Vanguard's Barrier. Shields are only needed in CQC, not somewhere at the back. Infiltrators won't be weaker than they are today, they just have options: Do I (re)activate shield, or use other powers.

The problem I have is that all hybrid classes end up with shield powers when they shouldn't really need them, coming out of Cloak having lost your shield and then having to activate GSB just to restore it is terrible, you're likely having to play defense all the time just to stay alive.

I think to balance it out a bit would be to make Cloak (and Charge) with a longer cooldown and perhaps make the Infiltrator's tech powers shorter in cooldown as they share the same cooldown as Cloak which does create some overlap and is why Cloak is seen as spammable although a possible shake up of regular 'powers' would benefit the hybrids as they don't really feel like true hybrids like you say.

As for Vanguard well you could possibly include Barrier but perhaps swap its 12 second CD with Charge's 6 seconds that way Vanguards don't always have to Charge simply just for a shield regen. And yes Vanguard's biotics fall short of their achievement, my idea to expand on the ME2 would be to replace Cryo Ammo with a new version of Carnage (an actual 'combat power') and replace Shockwave with Throw.

Sentinel well I dunno, either remove Tech Armour and perhaps make Neural Shock or Stasis worked in as regular abilities in place of Throw and Cryo Blast respectively. Maybe have Neural Shock slowly drain health as well as CC (bit like in ME1) and have Stasis levels it would need to be successful e.g: rank 1, basic enemies, rank 4, bosses, YMIR's etc.

[Ahglock]

Aynien wrote...

What about soldiers?Is there any way to not make them AR addicts?

I think they have to ditch ammo powers.  Replace those with active combat powers.  Inferno grenades, suppressive fire powers, mines or proximity bomb etc.

[Bozorgmehr]

Sparroww wrote...

The problem I have is that all hybrid classes end up with shield powers when they shouldn't really need them, coming out of Cloak having lost your shield and then having to activate GSB just to restore it is terrible, you're likely having to play defense all the time just to stay alive.

They only need shields when they head into danger (CQC Infiltrator) - and they can regen shields immediately after Cloaking. With GSB on a shorter cd (but limited shield boost) they can use offensive tech powers just seconds after Cloak wears off (and already having GSB enabled shield). I think this will improve instead of diminish their CQC performance - the only thing changing is having multiple powers (options) available.

Only CQC Infiltrators rely on shields. The more catious/long-range Infiltrators don't need GSB much, instead they will become much more potent casters (and can still use Cloak to help with sniping + enemies don't shoot so, although they're having no shield, they don't take damage)

I think to balance it out a bit would be to make Cloak (and Charge) with a longer cooldown and perhaps make the Infiltrator's tech powers shorter in cooldown as they share the same cooldown as Cloak which does create some overlap and is why Cloak is seen as spammable although a possible shake up of regular 'powers' would benefit the hybrids as they don't really feel like true hybrids like you say.

Main problem with Cloak is; cooldown starts when Cloak wears off. The 6 s (base) cooldown becomes 6 + Cloak time =  ~10 seconds easily. Way to long IMHO, and going into CQC mode doesn't allow using tech skills much. Usually when cd becomes available you'll need to Cloak again to survive.

Cooldown times have to completely redone; too bad we can't test stuff like this our selves, but I believe its very hard to determine the exact time and effects (Barrier, as it is, on a very short cooldown breaks the game, for example - its effect has to reduced to make it work)

As for Vanguard well you could possibly include Barrier but perhaps swap its 12 second CD with Charge's 6 seconds that way Vanguards don't always have to Charge simply just for a shield regen. And yes Vanguard's biotics fall short of their achievement, my idea to expand on the ME2 would be to replace Cryo Ammo with a new version of Carnage (an actual 'combat power') and replace Shockwave with Throw.

Yeah, I like ME1 Carnage too. But adding or changing powers doesn't change anything if Charge still remains a super power. First Charge's effects need to be split - so player can Charge as usual, but has to manage defensive and extra offensive powers manually. That's my main point.

Sentinel well I dunno, either remove Tech Armour and perhaps make Neural Shock or Stasis worked in as regular abilities in place of Throw and Cryo Blast respectively. Maybe have Neural Shock slowly drain health as well as CC (bit like in ME1) and have Stasis levels it would need to be successful e.g: rank 1, basic enemies, rank 4, bosses, YMIR's etc.

Yeah, Sentinels will be the most difficult class. But I like them to be teamplayers, they should have skills boosting team performance as a whole.

[Irzhen]

I can't really speak for infiltrators or sentinels since I never managed to get neither of them past freedom's progress, but I agree with the vanguard changes. Although I would probably never play adept again , charge is fun and the only thing missing if being able to use other biotic powers.



But I'm curious as to why you say it would be near impossible to play without pause without the global cooldown. They would need to add more hotkeys but that is already needed now, at least for an adept. I think the cds would be better and make more sense if they were split in categories. You could use a biotic power, and it would only trigger the cd on other biotic powers, tech and combat powers would still be available. Pure classes would have to have a bigger cd redution to balance ofc and it would still have those exceptions for charge and cloak.



And give some damn true powers to soldiers...Ammo powers is the worst excuse of skill points I ever seen. Even passives are better fillers than that...

[Sparrow44]

Powers like Barrier and GSB may possibly have to remain bonus powers or at the very least BioWare creates extra room for additional powers for each class to receive as simply giving most classes shield powers would end up a bit lob-sided as not all classes were originally designed for CQC and perhaps there needs to be a slight balance for what each class can do.



Sentinels were turned into juggernauts in ME2 thanks to TA, making shotgun the preferred choice, and Adepts, Infiltrators and Engineers make decent shotgunners without a shield boost as there powers help in locking down the battlefield so giving them shields on top of that and a seperate cooldown meter would also make them overpowered, the opposite of what you're suggesting.

[Praetor Knight]

With the ammo I agree it should be completely separate, I was thinking out loud if they were to stay as powers in ME3.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I like the idea of having Tech and Biotic powers on separate cooldowns. Of course for gameplay balancing, the class Passives would then give different time reductions on casting with the shared powers between classes, to give variety, and I assume that the enemy AI will be improved for ME3 as well, so I'm fine without a Global Cooldown.

Without Global CD it will be hard - if not impossible - to play without having to pause often. I like the ME2 system because it has just enough powers (and squadmate powers) to hotkey (though I like having a couple extra for Adept and Engineer). This is great for the action, pausing interferes with the overall immersion IMHO.

What I pictured is that the HUD will display, in the bottom middle (where it is now), two color coded bars instead of one for the hybrid classes. Biotics would be purple and Tech yellow (or another to contrast purple). Combat powers could stay white.

But as you bring up, the key will be how they are handled to activate in combat. Maybe the DA system would work on the Console. Not sure about PC.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 06 janvier 2011 - 07:29 .

[Simbacca]

I'm currently doing my first Infiltrator run and I have to say, it is anything but a Cloak spammer. Yes when using my Vanguard it is almost always right to Charge since it is both an offensive and defensive skill. My Infiltrator though, it is never a good idea to use Cloak when I'm hurting since it halts regeneration. Maybe this has to do with my style of play more than anything, since I guess Cloak could be used to retreat to the safety of cover, but I can't stomach doing that. It makes it feel like my health/shields take twice as long to recharge since I have to wait Cloaks duration to get to cover, then wait for the regeneration to start. For me, I use Cloak when I'm full health and shields to go in for some shotgun mayhem. When I'm hurt, I rather fling Incineration Blast, AI Hacking, or Neural Shock for quick cc. I'd say I use Cloak for only 50 - 60% of my cooldowns.

Then again, I've yet to play a Widow Infiltrator. Still, I don't see myself using Cloak to retreat ever unless it is absolutely my only option. 

Yet again still, I can't say I dislike your idea.  Probably quite the contrary.

Modifié par Simbacca, 06 janvier 2011 - 07:34 .

[Sparrow44]

Irzhen wrote...

You could use a biotic power, and it would only trigger the cd on other biotic powers, tech and combat powers would still be available. Pure classes would have to have a bigger cd redution to balance ofc and it would still have those exceptions for charge and cloak.

The only class that really benefits from that idea are Sentinels, as they have active tech and biotic attacks to use. So i'd agree they'd have to create 'combat powers' so Vanguards and Infiltrators benefit.

I'd love to see Carnage back for Vanguards, and Cloak's weapon damage boost could be taken out and made into Assasination (another ME1 combat power). Soldier...well Adrenaline Rush could simply boost accuracy and bring back Overkill/Marksman for the damage boost and they would possibly get Assasinate and Carnage too maybe Flashbang. No?

[Praetor Knight]

As a Soldier I'd much rather have my choice of grenade powers over ammo powers with a 4.5 sec cooldown. Fortification is fine too.



Also, I think that the Squad should stay on the Global Cooldown for their powers with Shep have it separate, I forgot to mention that earlier.

[Njorls]

 The biggest problem I see is console players. Having one global cooldown makes it easier for me to know when I can use any power. Separate cooldowns make this harder. We don't have hotkeys in the upper left corner telling us when our powers recharge, it's the cursor in the middle. I like it, I can know when something recharges while looking at where I'm aiming.

Having more powers isn't that great because as of right now, console players can only hotkey 3. 1 for Charge, 1 for Pull, 1 for bonus power. It's a nice fun way to play. It's nice that Charge is an offensive as well as defensive power, it makes the Vanguard more playable on the console.

And I think you're a bit off on some of your statements. My vanguard uses biotics all the time (except Shockwave). My sentinel uses all the powers as well. I do agree that Soldier is a one trick pony but this may not be a bad thing. Some players may want the easy to play class. Maybe giving them a bonus on combat bonus powers would help the soldier, or some kind of cooldown bonus for them (but not for AR).

Modifié par Njorls, 06 janvier 2011 - 07:46 .

[Irzhen]

Sparroww wrote...

The only class that really benefits from that idea are Sentinels, as they have active tech and biotic attacks to use. So i'd agree they'd have to create 'combat powers' so Vanguards and Infiltrators benefit.

I'd love to see Carnage back for Vanguards, and Cloak's weapon damage boost could be taken out and made into Assasination (another ME1 combat power). Soldier...well Adrenaline Rush could simply boost accuracy and bring back Overkill/Marksman for the damage boost and they would possibly get Assasinate and Carnage too maybe Flashbang. No?

When I said combat powers I was refering to flashbang and inferno grenades. They are bonus powers so any class would benefict from it. But yes, sentinels would be the most affected and that's why I said that pure classes should have a bigger cd redution and that should exist some real combat powers that aren't avaiable to everyone. Also having more combat powers would allow weapons to stop being the soldier trademark and it would allow more customization on weapons loadouts on other classes.

[ScroguBlitzen]

I used Cloak all the time my first playthrough. Now, I use cloak less than 10% of the time. If you use Widow then normal enemies are killed with a headshot whether you are cloaked or not, so there is rarely a reason to cloak. I think cloak is balanced fine now. Vanguard's charge IS a bit too powerful, but why bother weakening it in a single player game? I'd prefer a higher difficulty setting, or an Ironman option with achievements for beating the game without dying once.

[Irzhen]

Njorls wrote...

 The biggest problem I see is console players. Having one global cooldown makes it easier for me to know when I can use any power. Separate cooldowns make this harder. We don't have hotkeys in the upper left corner telling us when our powers recharge, it's the cursor in the middle. I like it, I can know when something recharges while looking at where I'm aiming.

Having more powers isn't that great because as of right now, console players can only hotkey 3. 1 for Charge, 1 for Pull, 1 for bonus power. It's a nice fun way to play. It's nice that Charge is an offensive as well as defensive power, it makes the Vanguard more playable on the console.

And I think you're a bit off on some of your statements. My vanguard uses biotics all the time (except Shockwave). My sentinel uses all the powers as well. I do agree that Soldier is a one trick pony but this may not be a bad thing. Some players may want the easy to play class. Maybe giving them a bonus on combat bonus powers would help the soldier, or some kind of cooldown bonus for them (but not for AR).

They could add circle colours like praetor said so instead of one circle you could have a total of 3 if you had all powers on cd. Said like this it sound like it would take a lot of the screen where the crosshair is but adding some options to change size and transparency should solve that I think. The control issue on consoles is the bigged problem because consoles just don't have the same ammount of keys a keyboard have...
My vanguard doesn't use charge all the time but that is purely a personal option. 90% of the times I use another power is because I don't want to use charge and want add that biotic feeling to the character, because using charge would be a better option. I even use shockwave sometimes despite that power being useless.

[Sparrow44]

Njorls wrote...

And I think you're a bit off on some of your statements. My vanguard uses biotics all the time (except Shockwave). My sentinel uses all the powers as well. I do agree that Soldier is a one trick pony but this may not be a bad thing. Some players may want the easy to play class. Maybe giving them a bonus on combat bonus powers would help the soldier, or some kind of cooldown bonus for them (but not for AR).

Soldier is only easy because it's seriously overpowered and has no real learning curve, unless you're a terrible aim then it's really hard to struggle with Soldier and therefore is less fun overall if you're getting no challenge out of the game.

Giving the Soldier appropiate powers whilst changing Adrenaline Rush somehow would balance it a bit but struggling to think of anything else to suggest for the class.

[Bozorgmehr]

Irzhen wrote...

I can't really speak for infiltrators or sentinels since I never managed to get neither of them past freedom's progress, but I agree with the vanguard changes. Although I would probably never play adept again , charge is fun and the only thing missing if being able to use other biotic powers.

Well the Adept's powers need to be tweaked as well - don't worry I never forget the Adept class

But I'm curious as to why you say it would be near impossible to play without pause without the global cooldown.

I can handle combat - running and gunning, looking around for enemies, ammo, cover etc - and powers in ME2 (no pausing), but 8 (or possibly more) powers all on seperate cooldown might be to much dealing with similtaneously. You cannot play ME1 without pausing if you want to use all available powers (including squad) - there are simply too many. Console players don't have hotkeys on screen, they can only watch the Global CD('s).

Praetor Shepard wrote...

But as you bring up, the key will be how they are handled to activate in combat. Maybe the DA system would work on the Console. Not sure about PC.

Also, I think that the Squad should stay on the Global Cooldown for their powers with Shep have it separate, I forgot to mention that earlier.

The cooldown system is the key, but also the tricky part. I never said it would be easy, but it might improve overall gameplay implemented right.

@ Simbacca, Njorls and Scrogublitzen: The OP is kinda black & white - to get everybodies attention

My point is to allow Infiltrators to Cloak frequently (and VG to Charge all day long) AND using powers similtaneously. Cloak (and Charge) define Infiltrators (and VGs), I don't want to change that - I want to improve it.

Infiltrators are supposed to move around unseen, pop-up behind enemy positions, sneak up on enemies and unleash weapons at point blank range. That's why I put forth the 'Seperate Cloak CD'-idea. Cloak is key and the Infiltrator's other powers should work to increase the way the player likes to operate. It will allow long-range sniper Infiltrators to Cloak > aim > use (defense stripping/damage boosting) power (while Cloaked), to enhance > shot. Hell, why not force OSOK Infiltrators to use offensive powers to enable OSOKs - for example? (Insanity only?)

The CQC Infiltrator on the other hand will take damage - extra protection is needed. They should be able to Cloak and sneak up on enemy, but since Cloak allows player to shoot first it must be gimped (hence the shield lost part), but the Infiltrator must also (to compensate) have access to a power to boost defenses - allowing CQC but at a price, having to spent points on a defensive power means less point can be used on offensive powers and since all other powers are on a global cooldown, the CQC Infiltrator has to wait on that cooldown before (s)he can use offensive powers again.
Options & Choices - not Limitations

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 06 janvier 2011 - 08:56 .

[sinosleep]

I agree with you on a lot of things man but thus ie NOT one of them. You take away the shield recharge and you may as well get rid of charge all together. The point of change is going charge headlong into danger so you can make effective use of your shotty. Can't do that without the shield regen.

[lazuli]

sinosleep wrote...

I agree with you on a lot of things man but thus ie NOT one of them. You take away the shield recharge and you may as well get rid of charge all together. The point of change is going charge headlong into danger so you can make effective use of your shotty. Can't do that without the shield regen.

Yeah.  I'm open to a re-examination of the global cooldown system, but I like that Charge takes us places and defends us.  I like that it fulfills two purposes, leading to build compression.  In my opinion, that's a good thing.

[kstarler]

I admit that I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I plan to do so this evening. That said, a point I would like to put forward is why Soldier's are balanced as they are. I believe that BioWare is using the Soldier as the default class for those who are looking more for a story based shooter and less for an RPG. Those players (probably the majority of folks that either buy the game and play it once or rent it) are likely to just choose the default, and are likely to be more attracted to a class that has only one active power and a bunch of passive boosts. I think that the Soldier is purposely limited to have an appeal to a broader audience (as counter intuitive as that may seem.) That said, it would be nice to see better balancing of all the classes. If anything, I want the strong classes to be a bit weaker so the weaker classes don't feel like they've been neglected or underpowered.

[Bozorgmehr]

sinosleep wrote...

I agree with you on a lot of things man but thus ie NOT one of them. You take away the shield recharge and you may as well get rid of charge all together. The point of change is going charge headlong into danger so you can make effective use of your shotty. Can't do that without the shield regen.

You missed the important part Sino, Charge has its own cooldown - the shield regen abilty comes in using another power (one of the supporting powers) like Barrier for example. You can still Charge a group of enemies and activate Barrier: either while Charging (if you have no shield), or whenever your shield goes down in combat (even if it's a second after you charged in) - it just you who decides when the regen effect kicks in!

All the other powers are on a global cd (Charge has its own) - this way you can have Charge and shield regen like it is right now, you only need to press two buttons (Charge and Barrier) to get both effects. But it also allows players to Charge a group, shotgun one in the face, turn around and immediately Throw another enemy of a ledge for example.

Key here is the option to manage both offensive and defensive abilities manually. If your Vanguard is fast and skilled enough to Charge twice or trice without needing the shield regen, it has the option to use offensive powers instead. I think you'd like that. Things have to re-balanced though hence the cooldown/effect ratio problems.