93 réponses à ce sujet

[Praetor Knight]

Soldier could use Grenades over different Melee attacks, IMHO.



Concussive Shot needs some love though, maybe a shorter cooldown 3 sec or 4.5 sec.

[Sailears]

@ Boz
Ah yes, using a charged power should increase the cooldown, that makes sense.
Say charging a power to full takes ~3 seconds, and this drains 30% of you biotic/tech pool; you would only be able to unleash 3 charged attacks before needing to regain your strength, and in the meantime all biotic powers would be standard.
Either that or simply scrap the biotic/tech pool and have double cooldown for fully charged attacks.

Edit: In that case Nemesis and Demolisher should simply reduce the cooldown penalty for using charged attacks.

@ Praetor
I let all classes get grenades. Soldiers (through assalut training) get to throw them faster, as well as switching weapons faster.
Also I tried to tune the encumberance such that it would only be feasible for soldiers to use heavy weapons in general.

Modifié par Curunen, 06 janvier 2011 - 11:18 .

[Malanek]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
Concussive Shot needs some love though, maybe a shorter cooldown 3 sec or 4.5 sec.

Concussive shot does indeed need some love. What is it's current cooldown? I'm not sure making the cooldown too low is a good thing because then you could permanently lock out something with no protection too easily although is it really higher than 4.5 seconds? At the moment it is supposed to be a viable attack against barriers but it just doesn't do enough damage so I would look at either increasing that damage multiplier or have it ignore barriers and knock over the enemy as if it was unprotected.

[Bozorgmehr]

Element_Zero wrote...

As far as the 'pause' goes leave it alone. It's a useful tool for those on any platform who manage multiple things. I get a bit tired of listening to it's a immersion breaker. If you don't like to use it then don't. Some controllers only have so many buttons on them [...] Plus trying to find 7-8 on the PC keyboard is a bit of a pain when I'm moving all the time. And if you have an 'console' controller for the PC you are also limited on buttons.

I'm not arguing to remove Pause, there's nothing wrong with using pause. But I don't want the game to have to many powers or on to many cooldowns to deal with - making it impossible to play without pausing. That's one of the greatest improvement BW made regarding ME2; we have a choice! Some people like to pause a lot, for tactical reasons or to assist aiming etc. Other players like non-stop action. Both can do as they please right now.

[...] To me how to play these classes really involve timing / skills, how used you are to the human - game interface, and how you manage the enemies who come at you.

Yes, but giving players a couple extra options doesn't change any of that - it allows new ways to play and approach fights. The current system is pretty good, but there's still room for improvement

Malanek999 wrote...

By the way, I don't really like the idea of having one ability on a seperate cooldown. It almost forces
players to use that ability when you should really be striving to promote as much flexibility in character builds as possible.

It's the other way around; Infiltrators can sneak around and use their other tech/combat power doing so - now they can sneak around .... or use powers. Vanguards can Charge and when cooldown finishes have to Charge again just to stay alive - with two cooldowns, they can use their other powers too while still being able to Charge a lot.

This increases flexibility and versatility in both gameplay and builds.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 06 janvier 2011 - 11:22 .

[Sailears]

The way I see it, concussive shot should be the parallel to carnage. If given a damage boost I think it could be pretty useful.

[Malanek]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

By the way, I don't really like the idea of having one ability on a seperate cooldown. It almost forces
players to use that ability when you should really be striving to promote as much flexibility in character builds as possible.

It's the other way around; Infiltrators can sneak around and use their other tech/combat power doing so - now they can sneak around .... or use powers. Vanguards can Charge and when cooldown finishes have to Charge again just to stay alive - with two cooldowns, they can use their other powers too while still being able to Charge a lot.

This increases flexibility and versatility in both gameplay and builds.

You are increasing flexibility in gameplay but not in builds. You are now effectively forcing the player to always invest in the power on the single cooldown because that is the only power that works with other powers. In the case of ME2 Charge and Cloak would be used by most players but we just had someone a few posts back say they didn't use charge or cloak much. Encouraging flexibility in builds means encouraging combinations/synergy between as many powers/skills as possible, not restricting them.

[Bozorgmehr]

Having main Soldier power (AR) on separate cooldown will allow the use of CS even with its current 6 s cooldown. Right now you'd be a fool using CS, you can use AR almost twice instead of firing one CS (and since damage is minimal you're better off using AR all day long). With AR on its own cd, you can use CS every 6 s (and AR) or you can waste the cooldown and to nothing (only AR)

Separate cooldown allows soldiers to have more skills, like the ones Curunen posted earlier for example without them loosing AR - best of both worlds (if you get the balance right).

[Irzhen]

Malanek999 wrote...

You are increasing flexibility in gameplay but not in builds. You are now effectively forcing the player to always invest in the power on the single cooldown because that is the only power that works with other powers. In the case of ME2 Charge and Cloak would be used by most players but we just had someone a few posts back say they didn't use charge or cloak much. Encouraging flexibility in builds means encouraging combinations/synergy between as many powers/skills as possible, not restricting them.

Although this is somewaht right, why play a vanguard if you don't want to charge? Soldiers have more guns, adepts have more biotics... The same for infiltrator I think. It's those skills that define the class, all other abilities are avaiable to other classes. What you are saying would be important if there was more than one ability restricted to a class.

[Praetor Knight]

If Concussive Shot is mimicking a 40mm Grenade than the newton force is ok, but the damage can be increased.

The Cooldown is 6 sec for Shep and 12 for the squad. 3 or 4.5 would be ok, IHMO, for Shep and 9 sec would be ok for the squad, if the cooldown is all that is changed.



@Curunen, what I meant is that I am fine with one melee attack that has several animations (left and right elbows, and different strikes with the equipped weapon class), but I'm fine if the damage is the same as in ME2.

I guess it would depend on how powers get implemented and I'm fine having access to all weapon classes at the expense of available Powers. I'd like to have the Shuriken, Phalanx, Mattock, GPS, Widow and Cain available, and I would be fine if the weapon damage was rebalanced with a Universal Thermal Clip system.

[Malanek]

To Irzhen and Bozorgmehr, thats why there should be new and viable abilities available especially if we are going up higher levels. CS should be improved to become viable so that you are not a fool for investing in it. Also note that if you were putting charge, cloak etc on a seperate cooldown you would probably have to increase that cooldown for balance purposes, so you would lose the ability to set up a series of charges in quick succession.

Modifié par Malanek999, 06 janvier 2011 - 11:37 .

[Malanek]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
The Cooldown is 6 sec for Shep and 12 for the squad. 3 or 4.5 would be ok, IHMO, for Shep and 9 sec would be ok for the squad, if the cooldown is all that is changed.

Really? Yeah that's way too high.

[tonnactus]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

If Concussive Shot is mimicking a 40mm Grenade than the newton force is ok, but the damage can be increased.
The Cooldown is 6 sec for Shep and 12 for the squad. 3 or 4.5 would be ok, IHMO, for Shep and 9 sec would be ok for the squad, if the cooldown is all that is changed.
.

Someone has to actually explain me why squadmembers should have bigger cooldowns then shepardt him/herself.
That never made any sense for me.Expecially when they supposed to be "the best specialist in the galaxy".

[Bozorgmehr]

Irzhen wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

You are increasing flexibility in gameplay but not in builds. You are now effectively forcing the player to always invest in the power on the single cooldown because that is the only power that works with other powers. In the case of ME2 Charge and Cloak would be used by most players but we just had someone a few posts back say they didn't use charge or cloak much. Encouraging flexibility in builds means encouraging combinations/synergy between as many powers/skills as possible, not restricting them.

Although this is somewaht right, why play a vanguard if you don't want to charge? Soldiers have more guns, adepts have more biotics... The same for infiltrator I think. It's those skills that define the class, all other abilities are avaiable to other classes. What you are saying would be important if there was more than one ability restricted to a class.

Yeah, you can complete ME2 without using powers at all - that's not the issue here.

@ Malanek999; Can you link a video of someone playing VG (on Insanity) who Charges a group of enemies and when in CQC range never use Charge again, but instead deals with enemies using Pull and Shockwave to finish em all. I'd like to see someone doing just that, because I think that'll be insanely hard. Vanguards in CQC need to keep Charging every time cd finishes simply to keep going. I like to change that, to allow this kind of play, but similtaneously using other powers (like Pull, Shockwave, Slam - or a revamped system where players can pick a select number of skills. Vanguard can pick two combat powers and two biotic powers).

I don't see how this restricts anything at all.

[EDIT]

Malanek999 wrote...

To Irzhen and Bozorgmehr, thats why there should be new and viable abilities available especially if we are
going up higher levels. CS should be improved to become viable so that you are not a fool for investing in it. Also note that if you were putting charge, cloak etc on a seperate cooldown you would probably have to increase that cooldown for balance purposes, so you would lose the ability to set up a series of charges inquick succession.

Balance is another matter, changing things like this has major impact on gameplay. Powers' effects and cooldowns have to change accordingly to not make Shep too powerful.

The Charge example is a good one, that's why I suggested in the OP to remove its shield regen ability - to get shields back VG needs to use one of the additional powers (the Vanguard in the OP was given Barrier). You can Charge and activate Barrier to mimic the current system, but you don't need to use Barrier. If your shields are at full strenght you can Charge and immediately use another offensive power).

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 06 janvier 2011 - 11:49 .

[Sailears]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
@Curunen, what I meant is that I am fine with one melee attack that has several animations (left and right elbows, and different strikes with the equipped weapon class), but I'm fine if the damage is the same as in ME2.
I guess it would depend on how powers get implemented and I'm fine having access to all weapon classes at the expense of available Powers. I'd like to have the Shuriken, Phalanx, Mattock, GPS, Widow and Cain available, and I would be fine if the weapon damage was rebalanced with a Universal Thermal Clip system.

Ah apologies I didn't quite understand.

Regarding loadout, I think I should have included further weapon encumberance increase under the fitness talent (sprint faster for longer, and can carry more, and damage resistance), and increased the encumberance value of sniper rifles. That way soldiers (and infiltrators) would be able to carry more, such as the loadout you would like to have. Too much to go back and recalculate.

[Irzhen]

Losing the ability to chain charge wouldn't be so bad actually, if it was done right. Or it would kill completely the vanguard class. It would depend on other gameplay factors. A solution on the OP is taking away the shield recharge of charge for example.
And I'm all for more powers and abilities. If anything, there isn't enough right now for most classes.

EDIT: Bozorgmehr, that wasn't really what I was talking about. You misunderstood my post. I was saying that it's the unique ability that defnies the class, and because of that it wouldn't really matter that all builds on that class used that power because if they didn't they could pretty much play another class.

Modifié par Irzhen, 06 janvier 2011 - 11:45 .

[Malanek]

tonnactus wrote...
Someone has to actually explain me why squadmembers should have bigger cooldowns then shepardt him/herself.
That never made any sense for me.Expecially when they supposed to be "the best specialist in the galaxy".

It's for gameplay purposes. If they had cooldowns as short as shepards, shepard would never need to stick his head out of cover.

[Praetor Knight]

tonnactus wrote...

Someone has to actually explain me why squadmembers should have bigger cooldowns then shepardt him/herself.
That never made any sense for me.Expecially when they supposed to be "the best specialist in the galaxy".

Gameplay related?

All I can figure is so that the squad does not "steal kills" from Shep, or so I've read. That is not a problem for the Soldier or Vanguard in my experience and have wondered why not with the Sentinel (Power Armor Caster). I haven't played the other classes enough to say more on the that aspect of the game.

Oh, and I think that is why your squad generally does less damage with their weapons than Shep.

[Malanek]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

@ Malanek999; Can you link a video of someone playing VG (on Insanity) who Charges a group of enemies and when in CQC range never use Charge again, but instead deals with enemies using Pull and Shockwave to finish em all. I'd like to see someone doing just that, because I think that'll be insanely hard. Vanguards in CQC need to keep Charging every time cd finishes simply to keep going. I like to change that, to allow this kind of play, but similtaneously using other powers (like Pull, Shockwave, Slam - or a revamped system where players can pick a select number of skills. Vanguard can pick two combat powers and two biotic powers).

I don't see how this restricts anything at all.

I'm not suggesting you can do this. I admit putting Charge on a seperate timer will increase gameplay because the player will then use different powers. It restricts character builds because now the player will be forced to invest in charge/cloak/singularity etc because they are the only powers that combine with other powers. And also, I repeat, if you put charge (and cloak, singularity etc) on a seperate timer, those times will probably have to increase for balance purposes making it harder to set up charges in quick succession.

[Bozorgmehr]

@ Malanek999: I edited my previous post, missed your last one



@ Irzhen; I was responding to the post you responded too first, the Yeah-part was my response to yours if you're still following me

[Irzhen]

Oh sorry, my bad.

Squad have longer coolddowns because it would be just to easy to kill enemies if everything was on the same cooldown. Imagine warp-bombing every 3 seconds. A squad mate pulls, you warp.

[The Spamming Troll]

hey boz would it be too much effort to organize the ideas put forth here and actually make an outline of what the majority of posters in this topic think would work?



why not just let us figure it out right now, right?

[sinosleep]

Boz I realize you would be able to cast barrier post charge, but I think I'm just going to bow out of this discussion cause I don't want it changed AT ALL, in any way. I don't want the CD reduced, I don't want the shields reduced, I don't want to have to cast another power after I'm done using it. This is something which I really don't see myself changing my mind about so what would there really be to discuss? It'd be like you talking to a brick wall.

I like vanguards for pinballing around the battlefield and shooting things in the face. If you increase CD, get rid of shields, make you rely on barrier, etc,etc, then that playstyle will change (what's the CD on barrier, how long will it last, how many shots will it be able to take, if it could be used to truly replicate charge as is than why change it in the first place) and I simply don't want it to and don't feel it needs to.

I use slam often enough on my vanguards, so charge being awesome isn't what stopped me from using other powers. I didn't use other powers because I was forced to drop points into shockwave in order to do so. If I have a fun power to use, and I don't have to waste points for it, then I'll use it even with charge in it's current form.

Modifié par sinosleep, 07 janvier 2011 - 03:00 .

[ScroguBlitzen]

I agree with Sinosleep on charge.



I don't think Infiltrators need any change to Cloak either. I would like two things for Infiltrator:

1. Let me crouch.

2. Add a short range damage multiplier to Sniper Rifles. Reward me for cloaking up to an enemy and putting the Widow in his mouth.



I think going back to individual cooldowns is too much, but the single cooldown does make every successive active power less useful than it would otherwise be, so maybe a combination of individual cooldowns and a global cooldown. Every power adds 1/2 it's cooldown time to the global cooldown so that you can use powers twice as much if you're mixing them up.

[Guilebrush]

Malanek brings up a great point, by putting unique class powers on a separate cooldown you inherently inflate their values in relation to other active power choices since you get to use them far more often given the same point investment compared to other active powers within a given class' suite. Most of the class defining powers are inherently more useful than the other selections things wont change that much until later in a character's lifetime, since you're likely to invest in the unique power heavily early on. While this is still potentially an improvement over the current situation it can probably be made even more flexible without overcomplicating things.

Of course there is a simple solution to this, which would be that each unique class power progresses automatically with the player, needing no point investment whatsoever. This leaves the player free to invest points on other things to customize their character. Here you get multiple toys to play with early and often, opening up said options much, much earlier in your Shepard's career.

A couple of points I do have to disagree with though is the need to modify charge, cloak an AR other than simply placing them on a separate cooldown. I've personally always been a fan of "balancing things high." I like my Shepard to feel powerful, especially since this is a single player, non-competative experience. I don't really see the need for the suggested nerfs and in fact they could prove counter productive to what you are trying to accomplish. With charge as an example, I like that it currently rewards players for taking a risk by repleneshing shields. If charge didn't I could forsee a situation where most players, especially on higher difficulty levels would wait for barrier to be off cooldown before starting a charge, since it would be too dangerous otherwise. Leading to a situation like we currently have now only this time you take away valuable hotkey real estate from players since they have to perform 2 actions instead of just 1 to achieve the same effect. Plus it puts you under the GCD anyway under your suggested system, meaning I wouldn't be able to do something like Charge->Shoot->Pull since I'd be in a Charge->Barrier->Shoot->GCD locked situation in this case. I just think it's an unneeded modification and potential action bloat. The same goes for cloak pretty much, although not to quite the same extreme.

As for AR unless you severly tweak/nerf the magnitude or duration of the time dilation it really wont change much vis-a-vis other active Soldier powers, so there's really no need segmenting its effects. Even if it didn't have the bonuses to damage or damage reduction (under hardened)  it would still be constantly spammed since it provides such a severe advantage by manipulating time and perception within a "real time" gameplay world anyway. You'd just end up with something similar to what we have with soldiers now, where the extra "modifier powers" would fulfill the same role as the "boring" ammo powers currently do for soldiers which is kind of what you're trying to remedy in the first place. Better to just put it on a separate GCD as you said, otherwise leaving it as is, and giving soldiers another active or two to use alongside AR. That should enchance the illusion of choice more than enough, really no need overcomplicating matters.

Other than the nerfs, which I think is just overthinking/overcomplicating things, I really like the idea. I absolutely loved the combat in ME2, which I found surprising since I typically detest shooters but I too felt that I didn't really get as much mileage out of having a complete power suite as I would have liked. Here's hoping they can build on their great system in ME3 to give us even more variety, even within individual classes which I think is the spirit behind your great ideas here.

Modifié par Guilebrush, 07 janvier 2011 - 05:33 .

[Bozorgmehr]

sinosleep wrote...

Boz I realize you would be able to cast barrier post charge, but I think I'm just going to bow out of this discussion cause I don't want it changed AT ALL, in any way.

So you're fine having classes who can use 6 powers yet only use one >95% of the time? Removing all the VG powers except Charge changes little to nothing for that class. Charge, as it is, basically works like a DA:O Warrior who presses one button, automatically transporting Warrior into killing positions, killing target and you're drinking a health potion also. I'd like to to all those things manually (never had issues with this is DA:O - no pausing either).

I don't want the CD reduced, I don't want the shields reduced, I don't want to have to cast another power after I'm done using it. This is something which I really don't see myself changing my mind about so what would there really be to discuss? It'd be like you talking to a brick wall.

I never said anything about reducing / increasing CD and/or effects - they need to be re-balanced and only testing can determine feasible values. I consider Charging an enemy, already in point blank range, just to regen shields a bit pathetic - it's like having your DA:O character perform a Micheal Jackson Moonwalk before drinking a health potions.

I like vanguards for pinballing around the battlefield and shooting things in the face. If you increase CD, get rid of shields, make you rely on barrier, etc,etc, then that playstyle will change (what's the CD on barrier, how long will it last, how many shots will it be able to take, if it could be used to truly replicate charge as is than why change it in the first place) and I simply don't want it to and don't feel it needs to.

This is not about gimping VGs, they should do the things they're doing and this thread isn't about just the Vanguard - the ARush spamming Soldier needs some options too, for example. ARush, like Charge, does many things simultaneously: Slow-mo, damage boost, damage reduction etc. I don't see what's wrong with dismantling those effects and put them on a separate button. You can still do everything like it is now, but you get to chose which effects you need exactly when you need them - that's all.

I use slam often enough on my vanguards, so charge being awesome isn't what stopped me from using other powers. I didn't use other powers because I was forced to drop points into shockwave in order to do so. If I have a fun power to use, and I don't have to waste points for it, then I'll use it even with charge in it's current form.

Your VG can only use Slam before Charging into the mayhem. From that point onwards, you're Charging primarily to boost shields - not for tactical reasons. I like the option to use Slam when my VG is in the middle of a massive firefight - if I don't need shield regen straight away.

ScroguBlitzen wrote...

I think going back to individual cooldowns is too much.

That's not what I'm proposing and I already explained in the OP why - it only adds one cooldown, the signature move (Charge, Cloak), all other abilities are on a global cd. I think most of us can handle that just fine (3 vs 4 cooldowns isn't a major change).

...but the single cooldown does make every successive active power less useful than it would otherwise be, so maybe a combination of individual cooldowns and a global cooldown. Every power adds 1/2 it's cooldown time to the global cooldown so that you can use powers twice as much if you're mixing them up.

That's a good idea, the main thing I try to accomplish is to make classes more versatile. In ME2 the powers available to (some) classes are not balanced right - some are vastly more powerful than others. Combined with the Global CD system this results in spamming that ability, I like to break that system, but without limiting the things players can do. I don't want a Vanguard incapable of Charging - I'd like them to do more than Charging alone.

Rewarding players for using multiple powers by cooldown increase/decrease might work - but it still requires the CD system and power-effects to be changed.