93 réponses à ce sujet

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

So you're fine having classes who can use 6 powers yet only use one >95% of the time? Removing all the VG powers except Charge changes little to nothing for that class. Charge, as it is, basically works like a DA:O Warrior who presses one button, automatically transporting Warrior into killing positions, killing target and you're drinking a health potion also. I'd like to to all those things manually (never had issues with this is DA:O - no pausing either).

I never said anything about reducing / increasing CD and/or effects - they need to be re-balanced and only testing can determine feasible values. I consider Charging an enemy, already in point blank range, just to regen shields a bit pathetic - it's like having your DA:O character perform a Micheal Jackson Moonwalk before drinking a health potions.

Except in DA:O, you do not actually fight. You simply click on little icons and the computer does all the work for you. Which is why I found DA:O really boring to play after some time.

Vanguard Charge is the only ability in the game that puts you to dangerous position on purpose. So obviously, it needs to add defense as well. I thought about this 2 cooldowns idea today, and I really dislike it now, sorry

Modifié par Kronner, 07 janvier 2011 - 08:53 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Guilebrush wrote...

Malanek brings up a great point, by putting unique class powers on a separate cooldown you inherently inflate their values in relation to other active power choices since you get to use them far more often given the same point investment compared to other active powers within a given class' suite. Most of the class defining powers are inherently more useful than the other selections things wont change that much until later in a character's lifetime, since you're likely to invest in the unique power heavily early on. While this is still potentially an improvement over the current situation it can probably be made even more flexible without overcomplicating things.

The unique power is what defines classes, it doesn't make sense to not use them often. I already explained that putting a (partly dismantled) class-specific power on a separate cooldown doesn't change anything. I just don't like powers that do everything for the player (Charge for example isn't a single power, it are multiple powers/effects in one - all those effects are executed automatically, the player only needs to press one button every couple seconds. I think most of us are capable enough to use specific effects when needed.

The point you make about investing skill points actually supports my concept. Sticking to the Charge example: As it is, most player max Charge first (all skill points are invested in Charge, because that's the only power a ME2 Vanguard needs, everything else is just for show). In my conceptual VG, it's counter-productive to invest all points in Charge alone. Charging enemies is easy, but not having something to restore shield (concept Charge has no shield regen remember) will get you killed fast. The concept VG has to spread point in other abilities (like a shield regen power for example) to help/improve their core business - Charging. All the other powers/abilites are on a second global cooldown. So VG can Charge and use other powers immediately for support (defensive and offensive powers alike).

Of course there is a simple solution to this, which would be that each unique class power progresses automatically with the player, needing no point investment whatsoever. This leaves the player free to invest points on other things to customize their character. Here you get multiple toys to play with early and often, opening up said options much, much earlier in your Shepard's career.

That's a very good idea - having more toy (options) to use and play with is exactly what I'm after.

A couple of points I do have to disagree with though is the need to modify charge, cloak an AR other than simply placing them on a separate cooldown. I've personally always been a fan of "balancing things high." I like my Shepard to feel powerful, especially since this is a single player, non-competative experience. I don't really see the need for the suggested nerfs and in fact they could prove counter productive to what you are trying to accomplish. With charge as an example, I like that it currently rewards players for taking a risk by repleneshing shields. If charge didn't I could forsee a situation where most players, especially on higher difficulty levels would wait for barrier to be off cooldown before starting a charge, since it would be too dangerous otherwise. Leading to a situation like we currently have now only this time you take away valuable hotkey real estate from players since they have to perform 2 actions instead of just 1 to achieve the same effect. Plus it puts you under the GCD anyway under your suggested system, meaning I wouldn't be able to do something like Charge->Shoot->Pull since I'd be in a Charge->Barrier->Shoot->GCD locked situation in this case. I just think it's an unneeded modification and potential action bloat. The same goes for cloak pretty much, although not to quite the same extreme.

Those are fair points, but most are already covered and to make this concept work all powers need to be tweaked and re-balanced (including cooldowns of course). Try not to think in current ME2 terms - the Vanguard's version of Barrier (or better, manual shield-regen) cannot be on a 12 s cooldown - you can't use Charge anymore. Cooldown has to be reduced, but for balance, the regen effect must also be limited.

As for AR unless you severly tweak/nerf the magnitude or duration of the time dilation it really wont change much vis-a-vis other active Soldier powers, so there's really no need segmenting its effects. Even if it didn't have the bonuses to damage or damage reduction (under hardened)  it would still be constantly spammed since it provides such a severe advantage by manipulating time and perception within a "real time" gameplay world anyway. You'd just end up with something similar to what we have with soldiers now, where the extra "modifier powers" would fulfill the same role as the "boring" ammo powers currently do for soldiers which is kind of what you're trying to remedy in the first place. Better to just put it on a separate GCD as you said, otherwise leaving it as is, and giving soldiers another active or two to use alongside AR. That should enchance the illusion of choice more than enough, really no need overcomplicating matters.

Problem with AR is its power, its the most deadly power in ME2 - making all fighs, against all enemies, with all weapons very easy. AR's effects must be reduced or split up, otherwise any change would have almost no effect on Soldiers' gameplay. I don't think having a few active powers is bad, I like the Adept and Engineer classes best because they need to use more than one power to be effective and yes, they're harder to play than Soldier, but a lot more fun also - because they have different abilities, i.e options.

Other than the nerfs, which I think is just overthinking/overcomplicating things, I really like the idea. I absolutely loved the combat in ME2, which I found surprising since I typically detest shooters but I too felt that I didn't really get as much mileage out of having a complete power suite as I would have liked. Here's hoping they can build on their great system in ME3 to give us even more variety, even within individual classes which I think is the spirit behind your great ideas here.

Yeah, that's how I view ME2 - it's great already, but some classes are too one-dimensional. I'd like to keep its core features, and build on them to fine-tune the system. Combat is very good, but it can be more flexible and versatile with some minor adjustments.

[Bozorgmehr]

Kronner wrote...


Except in DA:O, you do not actually fight. You simply click on little icons and the computer does all the work for you. Which is why I found DA:O really boring to play after some time.

Charge basically works the same way, you activate Charge and press the fire button (you already are in prefect position (no aiming required), enemy is staggered and doesn't move, it's harder to miss than kill the target IMHO)

Vanguard Charge is the only ability in the game that puts you to dangerous position on purpose.

I think the Adept and Engineer are in more danger if they fight aggressively than a Vanguard with Charge.

thought about this 2 cooldowns idea today, and I really dislike it now, sorry

It's the question what matters most - not my idea. I updated the OP to make that more clear. Also try to look beyond the Vanguard, they will be one of the hardest classes to change without affecting Charge.

You've mentioned in other threads you don't like Sentinels much, because they are invinsible tanks (i.e superb combatants, nothing close to a flexible biotic-tech hybrid they're supposed to be). Do you like them to be tanks or do you like some changes to make them a biotic-tech hybrid? What about Soldier's ARush?

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Charge basically works the same way, you activate Charge and press the fire button (you already are in prefect position (no aiming required), enemy is staggered and doesn't move, it's harder to miss than kill the target IMHO)

But when do you Charge a single enemy? Usually, it is a group of enemies, or at least there are enemies nearby and they shoot at you. The first kill is easy, that's correct. Then you have to survive for 5 seconds before you can Charge again. No other power in the game forces you to fight at close range.

I think the Adept and Engineer are in more danger if they fight aggressively than a Vanguard with Charge.

Adepts and Engineers are not close combat specialist, so that makes sense. Vanguards are supposed to be the best in close combat.

It's the question what matters most - not my idea. I updated the OP to make that more clear. Also try to look beyond the Vanguard, they will be one of the hardest classes to change without affecting Charge.

You've mentioned in other threads you don't like Sentinels much, because they are invinsible tanks (i.e superb combatants, nothing close to a flexible biotic-tech hybrid they're supposed to be). Do you like them to be tanks or do you like some changes to make them a biotic-tech hybrid? What about Soldier's ARush?

That's what actually made me dislike the separate cooldown (signature power and the rest) idea. For Charge, it wouldn't be so bad, but I think for other classes it would not be good. Yes, Vanguard is one dimensional, but there are 6 classes, versatility is good only up to a certain point (let's assume I could use biotics in close range after I charge, well Adept can do it too..only from mid-long range. What's the difference?)

Yeah, Sentinel is broken, mainly because AA is very overpowered. Just tune it down and Sentinel will not be so ridiculously easy to play.

I belive that one global cooldown and better balanced powers that would force the player think about what to use (so there is no clear winner for any situation like Charge or ARush) is the way to go.

Modifié par Kronner, 07 janvier 2011 - 09:40 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Guilebrush wrote...
Malanek brings up a great point, by putting unique class powers on a separate cooldown you inherently inflate their values in relation to other active power choices since you get to use them far more often given the same point investment compared to other active powers within a given class' suite. Most of the class defining powers are inherently more useful than the other selections things wont change that much until later in a character's lifetime, since you're likely to invest in the unique power heavily early on. While this is still potentially an improvement over the current situation it can probably be made even more flexible without overcomplicating things.

Of course there is a simple solution to this, which would be that each unique class power progresses automatically with the player, needing no point investment whatsoever. This leaves the player free to invest points on other things to customize their character. Here you get multiple toys to play with early and often, opening up said options much, much earlier in your Shepard's career.

If we’re talking about a separate CD for unique class powers, then another way of looking at it would be to combine class-unique powers with class passive skills. There will be no Assassination/Enhanced Cloak and Assassin/Agent, it'll just simply be Assassin/Agent. I honestly don’t think bonuses like +paragon/renegade actually do anything to begin with, so let’s make that as a universal increase. Here’s a rough sketch for a maxed leveled infiltrator, for instance:

Universal bonuses
+ 15% cooldown bonus
+ 15% weapons damage
7 second Cloak duration
same paragon/renegade bonus as all other classes, ie +100%, whatever

Assassin
60% sniper rile time dilation
+15% power damage
+75% cloak damage
15% health

Agent
50% sniper rifle time dilation
+15% power duration
+50% cloak damage
20% health

I’m just making the numbers up.

[Bozorgmehr]

Kronner wrote...

But when do you Charge a single enemy? Usually, it is a group of enemies, or at least there are enemies nearby and they shoot at you. The first kill is easy, that's correct.

And that's how a lot of people play the Vanguard, they Charge+kill one enemy, get into cover and Charge+kill again when cooldown finishes.

Then you have to survive for 5 seconds before you can Charge again.

That's when the real fun begins

That's what actually made me dislike the separate cooldown (signature power and the rest) idea. For Charge, it wouldn't be so bad, but I think for other classes it would not be good. Yes, Vanguard is one dimensional, but there are 6 classes, versatility is good only up to a certain point.

Too bad there ain't some ToolKit to change and test things, shouldn't be to hard to figure out if it works or not.

But I still don't like having 5-6 abilities and using only one most of the time. Adept and Engineer are fine, Infiltrator is ok, but the others have too powerful unique powers (compared to their other powers). There must be something that can be done about that, without changing too much.

Yeah, Sentinel is broken, mainly because AA is very overpowered. Just tune it down and Sentinel will not be so ridiculously easy to play.

Sentinel is worst of all, reducing Tech Armor might balance the Sentinel, but taking away too much makes the class redundant. Every class can use a defense (bonus) power similar to TA (without the extra goodies). I think it would be better to drop TA completely and think of something else to make Sentinels unique.

[Kronner]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Too bad there ain't some ToolKit to change and test things, shouldn't be to hard to figure out if it works or not.

But I still don't like having 5-6 abilities and using only one most of the time. Adept and Engineer are fine, Infiltrator is ok, but the others have too powerful unique powers (compared to their other powers). There must be something that can be done about that, without changing too much.

Agreed. Although on the other hand, the main reason why I am still playing ME2 is that I can Charge nearly all enemies in the game. It also adds a whole new experience..after playing Vanguard, I check out Engineer and it is completly different, which is good. So in the end I would be happy if they just left it as is. Caster classes for tactical combat, then some 'mindless*' Charging, easy mode (Soldier, Sentinel) for those who like it..not that bad actually, some minor tweak would be cool though (*cough* Sentinel *cough*). But I would welcome if Charge had longer base cooldown to make it more challenging.

They should definitely fix the leveling system, most classes hit the peak at level 20 and then get weaker relatively to the enemies that scale up with Shep's level. There is no reward for reaching max level and all in all the whole system is unsatisfying. Weapon loadout system is really stupid and limiting as well (why should I carry Hweapon I never use...think BW, think).


* I consider Vanguard extremely tactical class, even though it may look chaotic. But it is true that Vanuards can do most everything on their own (kill almost all enemies single-handedly)...the question is.. is that a bad thing?

Modifié par Kronner, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:19 .

[Sparrow44]

An idea I ran with was all classes having a primary unique power and a secondary unique power. Now a Vanguard would keep Charge as it is but also have access to another Vanguard power exclusive only to them; not quite as powerful as Charge except it may have a shorter global CD than Charge and will have it's other uses for when someone doesn't want to Charge.

I suppose if classes got 2 unique powers you'd have it with Soldiers, Adepts, Engineers would have two unique powers (2 biotics, 2 techs etc) and hybrids could of course get one of each type. Sentinel would be balanced by removing TA and getting a unique biotic and tech power as well as getting Barrier or GSB to make up for the loss of TA.

[Bozorgmehr]

Kronner wrote...

Agreed. Although on the other hand, the main reason why I am still playing ME2 is that I can Charge nearly all enemies in the game. It also adds a whole new experience..after playing Vanguard, I check out Engineer and it is completly different, which is good. So in the end I would be happy if they just left it as is. Caster classes for tactical combat, then some 'mindless' Charging, easy mode (Soldier, Sentinel) for those who like it..not that bad actually, some minor tweak would be cool though (*cough* Sentinel *cough*). But I would welcome if Charge had longer base cooldown to make it more challenging.

They should definitely fix the leveling system, most classes hit the peak at level 20 and then get weaker relatively to the enemies that scale up with Shep's level. There is no reward for reaching max level and all in all the whole system is unsatisfying. Weapon loadout system is really stupid and limiting as well (why should I carry Hweapon I never use...think BW, think).

Yeah, I do like the different feel playing all 6 classes, but I think it would be great to add more choices and specializing. It would be cool if you could chose how to 'build' your Vanguard. I can't see anything wrong in having the option to go all-out CQC, a completely combat specialized Vanguard without (offensive) biotic powers (ME2 Vanguard+ xD). And the option to focus on biotic powers, the biotic specialized Vanguard can still Charge say 2-3 enemies max (but no more) but is also acapable caster - nothing like an Adept, but much better than the ME2 one.

Adepts could chose between going all-out CC; and good CC plus reasonable CQC abilities (again, nothing like the CQC Vanguard, but not that far behind the Biotic Vanguard). This would create true hybrid classes and opens lots of new ways to play and level all 6 classes (or 12 class if you want).

Maybe an "upgrade" leveling system could work; most unique powers have multiple features (like Charge, see OP). Adding new goodies (player can chose between several) to upgrade the unique power might do the trick. So the CQC Vanguard, for example, needs to invest a lot of points in Charge: to reduce its cooldown - add/improve shield-regen, add time dilation, (improving) stagger (duration), AoE etc. and doesn't have many points to spent on other abilities. Whereas the Biotic Vanguard ends up with a less effective version of Charge, but can use some powerful biotic powers to compensate.

P.S. Curunen's weapons loadout system looks very good - way beyond the current system

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:39 .

[Sailears]

I think in general redoing the class system goes way beyond simply changing powers.
Actually, sentinel having two main powers might work - if their weapon loadout is less than adept and engineer. Say they can only carry a pistol or an smg, and grenades. One tech and one biotic main power (both on the same cooldown). Then two tech and two biotic supplementary powers (all on the same cooldown).
This way sentinels would have very little in the way of direct firepower, and instead would have to use their powers to support the squad in shooting.
Yes, sentinels should be the ultimate team player.

[Element_Zero]

Ugh, ok I'll bite yet again on this post. . . This is why I cringe when I hear post like these. . There is always someone out there that thinks this or that should be nerfed. Instead of nerfing something maybe the devs could come up with something that makes a player change up. . . tactics, weapons, whatever. I can reasonably say I've been the victim of nerf crap on so many different games that to me it's a unreasonable option and should only be considered if all other ideas fall flat on their face or it makes the program unstable / unplayable.

I really hate nerfing anything when it comes to the various classes. . . I guess I would rather see a creative counterattack that's able to be applied by the enemy AI or something that can be shared between the Enemy AI and Player.

I guess I kicked around a few ideas based on what I've read thus far. . and have come up with a few suggestions. . Rather the development team decides to use them or not is entirely there choice. If these concepts have been posted before, take no offence.

Maybe a way to countermand somethings with the Solder and the AR would to provide AI with Tech skill a power and the same thing could be said for other powers that seem a bit to much. I'm not going to go into cooldown times etc. . just tossing out concepts reluctantly (since I'm not getting anything for this.) . . . here.

For techys (devs can decide what player classes this can apply to or not)

'Scramble' a LOS (Line of Sight) cast. . . Those out of direct LOS would be protected from it.

This is something that would effect weapons / or the Sentinal's shield. (The idea is to confuse the computer in a offensive weapon system.)

Concept: Once cast this power could effect offensive weapon system in one or some of the following ways. (depending on how one wants to program it into the game).
1. Disruption of sighting. Either by making the players aim sight disappear entirely or just by opening them up and forceing a inaccuracy effect. (as far as I know no other 'shooter' games do this.)
2. Misfires Overloading shields - active weapon misfire. . requiring the player to wait for the cooldown to pass or having swap one weapon for another (#2 is just a variation of the 'overheat' found in ME 1)
3. Overloads the weapon and forces it to shoot. . . The player can still aim it, yet it will not stop firing until the thermal clip is used up. (Player has to wait for the effect to go away on the weapon, since reloading another thermal clip will cause it to continue to discharge uncontrolably.)
4. Overloads the power capacitor (not the power cell or battery, if your into electronics you probabily have a better idea what I'm talking about.) and zaps the user, causing a stun - minor damage effect. Forces a reduction in aim and hands to shake.
5. Effects mechs in one are more of the above suggestions, and / or causes them to wander in a random odd direction (instead of advancing to target.) Heavier mechs and geth would beable to regain control a bit quicker than smaller ones.
6. Directly effects the Sniper scope causing it to focus improperly.
7. If the development team incorporates something like night vision into ME 3 - it would cause it to flicker and dim slightly.

Visual effect: Sparks surround the weapon / system effect.

Drawbacks: Caster has to have direct LOS to intended target and thus be exposed to incomming fire. . . (casting time can be adjusted for exposure. . . And cool down time can be as well.) (Devs can decide as to how effective it is with targets who have armor and barriers active.) Those afflicted with Scramble have to wait for it to wear off in order to use that offensive weapon. Afficted can swap a weapon for another to resume their attack.


'Collapse - Shield Crush' cast similar to 'Inciderate'. (it's a defense barrier bleed & delay) and might be more useful for enemy AI.

Concept: This only effects enemies with a active kinetic barrier. Once cast this causes the kinetic barrier to switch on and begin to crush the target thus slowing all actions.
1. The crushing effect slows the target due to the painful effects.
2. 'Living' targets without rebreather units may start to suffocate and black out. (if player - screen darkens as the effect is active.) This wouldn't effect anyone who is breathing the suit's atmosphere btw. . .
3. The kinetic barrier is weakened by constantly being on and stressed. May force the Sentinal's to fire early.
4. Stagger effect from crush or obvious forceful movement.

Visual effect: Kinetic Barrier recharge effect stays on.

Drawbacks: It only effects Kinetic Barriers. . . Not sure it would effect a Biotic Barrier since the idea is to effect the computer of barriers. It wouldn't effect armor.


'Silent fire' cast similar to 'Cryo, Incinerate, AP rounds' and is intended for Players using Inflitrators or a squadmate. (maybe a modified cloak ability would be better.)

Concept: Limited duration ability (instead of active all the time it's only active for a short period or for a few rounds.) Increases terminal performance of bullets on targets and confuses them. (my other concept was a special weapon for Infiltrators. . . one for long range and maybe a pistol version for short.)
1. Improves damage values of rounds but reduces the shooters detectablity and causes the enemy AI to fire wildly in all directions since they don't know where the round came from.

Visual effect: Similar to current bullet modifiers / holo image around gun.

Drawbacks: A limited use abilty due to temperary effect, and cool down.


'Punch' a LOS - limited range cast.  Intended for Vanguards who like to brawl. (can be used with AI as well)

Concept: A brawler's biotic abiltiy, yet can only be cast at sort range. Damage - Delay effect
1. Powerful direct damage attack, stun, from a biotic charged punch.
2. Effect causes the enemy to get knocked off of feet and skid a short distance.
3. Effect causes some things to fly off of enemy (in the case of Mechs or maybe armor shards or pieces?)

Visual effect: Biotic ripples thoughout user denote charging effect. Quick right hand punch requires weapon to be held in left hand. . . or in the case of pistols - smg swapped to the left temporarily.

Drawbacks: Exposure to enemy fire, LOS, and very short range 1m or less attack. Charge up time could be lengthened or shortened and cool downs for balence.


'Hold' (I'm sure someone has posted a concept similar to this.) a biotic ability that allows the player to lift and move a target or throw. A pure LOS cast.

Concept: Allows biotics to lift and move a target.
1. Lifting action is acomplished by holding down on the button and utilizing visual (or motion) controlsl to lift and move left or right. Releasing button leaves target temporarly floating unable to fight back and subject to a 'Throw' cast upon global cooldown.
2. Optional: (still holding down the button) Lifing is acomplished by utilizing visual control, yet a toss can be done by triggering a motion control. Damage is only applied if the target falls to it's death, heads out of bounds, or strikes something.

Visual effect: Biotic ripples. Weapon held in left hand (or swapped to it in the case of pistol - smg), a grasping fist with right.

Drawbacks: Requires assignment and tieing up a 'hot key or button' on the controller. May or may not be effective with armor or barriers equipped targets (devs choice), Since it's a LOS cast, exposure to AI fire may be a bit lengthy as well due to the complicated control aspect.


'Quake' a biotic ability that knocks targets down and causes some damage. Cast simlar to 'Singlarity' yet is a more concentrated form of 'Shockwave' and requires it to land near their feet -vs- midsection.

Concept: Enemy advancement delayer - damage dealer.
1. Small random bursts in a 3 meter circle at Enemy's feet, more of a circular yet more constrated form of shockwave or maybe better described as a cluster bomb quake effect.
2. (Unarmored - no barrier) Causes the enemy to bounce slighly in the air and recieve damage from each biotic explosion. (amount of explosions, and duration adjustable by advancement of skill pts) And causes knockdown -  stun effect.
3. Disrupts aim while active reguardless of defenses. (armor or barriers)
4. Causes panic in some less experenced living enemies, mild confusion in mechs, makeing them move erratically after effect.
5. Stops movement reguardless of defensive value. (Enemy is trying to 'hang on' to something.)
6. Stagger effect for 'living' enemies.
7. (Edit! forgot) it dose damage defenses. . . Armor and Barriers.

Drawbacks: Must strike near target. Cast requires exposure to enemy fire. Cooldown.

Ok time to take a break. . . and I do like the suggestions for the solder with the grenades! And no I wasn't trying to favor this or that class. Just tossing out a few conceptual ideas.

Modifié par Element_Zero, 08 janvier 2011 - 03:35 .

[Praetor Knight]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

I honestly don’t think bonuses like +paragon/renegade actually do anything to begin with, so let’s make that as a universal increase.

I've mentioned this idea in other threads, I think it would be cool if that % bonus gets replaced in the class Passive with something else.

My Idea is to have one skill that allows the player to be able to Charm or Intimidate in any conversation, maybe tied to the class passive. If the Paragon and Renegade bars stay in ME3, I'd like to have them used as a success check for different conversations, similar to how Dragon Age implimented it.

[Sailears]

Element_Zero wrote...

Ugh, ok I'll bite yet again on this post. . . This is why I cringe when I hear post like these. . There is always someone out there that thinks this or that should be nerfed. Instead of nerfing something maybe the devs could come up with something that makes a player change up. . . tactics, weapons, whatever. I can reasonably say I've been the victim of nerf crap on so many different games that to me it's a unreasonable option and should only be considered if all other ideas fall flat on their face or it makes the program unstable / unplayable.

Personally the things I've suggested are not intended to nerf any class, rather stretch and juggle things around a bit so each one is a little more unique in what it can do.

I like some of the powers and effects you have come up with, and it would certainly add variety in tactics to combat.
Only silent fire - I think that would be better achieved by weapon mods.

Modifié par Curunen, 08 janvier 2011 - 05:05 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Element_Zero wrote...

Ugh, ok I'll bite yet again on this post. . . This is why I cringe when I hear post like these. . There is always someone out there that thinks this or that should be nerfed. Instead of nerfing something maybe the devs could come up with something that makes a player change up. . . tactics, weapons, whatever. I can reasonably say I've been the victim of nerf crap on so many different games that to me it's a unreasonable option and should only be considered if all other ideas fall flat on their face or it makes the program unstable / unplayable.

This thread is NOT about nerfing classes (they already are), it's about to make the combat system better and more diverse. ME2 combat is great, but if you've read the OP, also very one-dimensional becasue of the in-balance between powers classes can use. A Global Cooldown system were one can use one super power, something 10x more powerful and effective than all the others (like ARush, Assault Armor and Charge), is NOT well designed IMHO.

I really hate nerfing anything when it comes to the various classes. . . I guess I would rather see a creative counterattack that's able to be applied by the enemy AI or something that can be shared between the Enemy AI and Player.

(Enemy) AI improvements would be great, but unlikely - but it doesn't solve the problem mentioned above.

Ok time to take a break. . . and I do like the suggestions for the solder with the grenades! And no I wasn't trying to favor this or that class. Just tossing out a few conceptual ideas.

That's what this thread is about - this is nothing more than a simple brain-storm session. Hell, it's unlikely the devs are ever going the read it anyway. I love playing ME2, but I like my Soldier to have a couple of extra tricks on his/her sleeve than just spamming ARush, I'd like a Sentinel to be a biotic/tech/team-player specialist, not a Tank.

[Ahglock]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

[
This thread is NOT about nerfing classes (they already are), it's about to make the combat system better and more diverse. ME2 combat is great, but if you've read the OP, also very one-dimensional becasue of the in-balance between powers classes can use. A Global Cooldown system were one can use one super power, something 10x more powerful and effective than all the others (like ARush, Assault Armor and Charge), is NOT well designed IMHO.

I like how singualrity and drone work for the big gun power of  a class.  Yeah it is the best power you have, but you can only have one up at a time and it has a duration.  So you will always use it sure, but you then go to your other powers.  For short duration or spamable buffs it doesn't work that way, you use it then use it again.  So yeah I think something needs to be done, I kind of like the idea of seperate cooldowns.  Heck maybe some of these should have been almost passives, not active powers.  Like Assault armor, maybe it should just be when ever your shields regen they regen with tech armor, not something you turn on once they pop.  Or like a toggle in the case of AR..

[Guilebrush]

Ahglock wrote...

Or like a toggle in the case of AR..

There's already a function that mimics this the "game difficulty" setting under the options menu.

While there's certainly room for improvement and innovation, even with how great as the current combat mechanics of ME2 are, I really don't see Bioware resting on their laurels and leaving it as in ME3. This is especially true if the rumours of multiplayer gameplay making it into the third game come through as some of these powers (AR) don't translate seamlessly into a multiplayer gamespace.

If that is indeed the future of the franchise I will miss AR. For all the flak soldiers get for being "not as fun"  as the other class choices in the game, they are my hands down favorite to play specifically because of Adrenaline rush. Time dilation/manipulation has always been a favorite mechanic of mine when handled well be it in Fable 1, Dues Ex or even in games like Batman AA as a flourish effect rather than an actual power. It just resonates with me at a certain level.

That being said I have unwavering confidence that Bioware will release an amazing product in ME3 and I'm sure they'll be able to tweak the combat system enough to further enrich the already great experience (at least that's what I hope...)

[Bozorgmehr]

[quote]Guilebrush wrote...

For all the flak soldiers get for being "not as fun"  as the other class choices in the game, they are my hands down favorite to play specifically because of Adrenaline rush. Time dilation/manipulation has always been a favorite mechanic of mine when handled well be it in Fable 1, Dues Ex or even in games like Batman AA as a flourish effect rather than an actual power. It just resonates with me at a certain level. [/quote]

ARush is an awesome power, but the only active power Soldiers can use. The time dilation effect is great just by itself, it doesn't really need extra bonuses to keep the thrill of slowmo killings and explosions. I'd like to keep the slowmo part, but also have the option to use a couple other active powers/abilities - which are equally useful in certain situations.

[quote[
That being said I have unwavering confidence that Bioware will release an amazing product in ME3 and I'm sure they'll be able to tweak the combat system enough to further enrich the already great experience (at least that's what I hope...)
[/quote]

I'm sure ME3 will be awesome, just brainstorming how to make an already great system greater here

[Malanek]

Curunen, thinking about it more I really like your idea of a weapon encumbrance system (with some tweaking of the numbers). Having more control over which guns you carry (ie two different SMGs) is a good decision to offer the player. It would also allow another point of balance for the weapons. It is always difficult to keep the initial guns useful throughout the game, but having another stat gives the designers another way of making less effective guns more attractive.

[Sailears]

^Honestly, that whole thing was off the top of my head so it really does need some tweaking; plus I'm sure something similar must have been mentioned many months ago in another forum.
The thing is I still think that only one weapon of each type would work, because of holstering locations (though smgs can be holstered on the right hip).
The other dilemma is should sentinels have the same loadout as adepts and engineers?
If the balance through the classes is:
soldier - 1 combat
vanguard or infiltrator - 2/3 combat, 1/3 biotic or tech.
adept or engineer - 1/3 combat, 2/3 biotic or tech.
sentinel - 1/3, 1/3, 1/3.
then yes, adepts, sentinels and engineers would have the same weapon capacity.
So from soldier anticlockwise to infiltrator - 9, 6, 3, 3, 3, 6.
It feels better in some ways to go - 9, 6, 3, 0, 3, 6. This would mean sentinels start only with a basic pistol, and can unlock through talents the ability to carry up to one average weapon (AR, shotgun, SR) plus basic pistol, or one upgraded pistol plus smg.
It would certainly increase their reliance on powers and interplay with the squad, but doesn't really make any sense.