60 réponses à ce sujet

[Zenthar Aseth]

JamesX wrote...

You have Arcane warrior, so I am assuming you are level 7+?
You start the game with 20 Strength as human (if you put your points into strength), by the time you get to level 6 you will have 38 strength to use almost every sword in the game.
Arcane Warrior do not gain a damage bonus compared to any other job. They use spellpower for damage, but warriors use Strength. There is no inherent bonus there either.
I assume you are using Startfang? Which is what I use. There is no way you can do more damage than a Warrior.
If your arcane warrior does more damage than your true warrior - in sheer melee then you are doing something VASTLY wrong with your Warrior.

Level 12, as I've said. I have 60+ magic at the moment. So Arcane warriors have a huge advantage there. Warriors need Dex, Str, Con.... I just need to spend 4/5 on magic and 1/5 on willpower. Arcane Warriors gain damage bonuses with Combat Magic.

I'm doing nothing wrong with my warrior. There's not much wrong to be done, is there? For example, I just got Oghren. Haven't had much time to "do wrong" with him, yet he's doing a lot less dmg.

[Curry Noodles]

Well, for what it's worth, with the two elemental hexes stacked and a few damage items you can do around 70 per hit too. And then there are spell combos...death hex + death cloud is ridiculous, give it a shot if you've never tried it. It'll definitely impress.



And then there's storm of the century...That's a little impractical in a lot of situations though because you'll kill your whole party too.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Curry Noodles wrote...

Well, for what it's worth, with the two elemental hexes stacked and a few damage items you can do around 70 per hit too. And then there are spell combos...death hex + death cloud is ridiculous, give it a shot if you've never tried it. It'll definitely impress.

And then there's storm of the century...That's a little impractical in a lot of situations though because you'll kill your whole party too.

You mean without being an AW? So what do you think happens when an AW uses those hexes and gets a "few damage items" and starts swinging? They can do the combos as well, too..

[Velz]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

is simply too good! Miasma, Combat Magic, Haste and Telekinetic weapons as the sustained abilities, nothing can stop you. At level 11-12, you do 70 damage with a two handed sword (and attack really damn fast thanks to Haste).. that's A LOT more than you'd do if you were a warrior.. and wait for it........ you can actually cast spells, too, just like any other mage! 

Well, I'm not really complaining. :innocent:

So why not just roll a warrior? It doesn't even seem you have enough mana to do anything useful anyway except roll enough spells to make you act warrior like anwyays.

[NetBeansAndJava]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Care to do some maths, then? If my AW hits for an average of 70+ damage per hit and I hit twice in the time it takes to cast a spell, how do you outdamage me? Arcane bolt, Lightning.. you name it does about 50~ damage per hit and they have cooldown time. And all the AoE spells don't do that much damage to a single target - so they do about 50 dmg per second too, perhaps. Even if in theory they did, what stops the AW from casting the AoE and then fighting with the sword?

First of all, I don't think you hit twice as fast to cast a spell.  Last I check most of those are instant cast, except the big ones like tempest.

You're right that single target dmg might be better... however, you're fully buffing your arcane warrior.  What if the single target get's hexed?  What about spell wisp?  Or spell might?  A fully buffed caster vs fully buffed melee would have close numbers at the least.

Anyway, enough arguing.  You're right that arcane warriors are good at melee -- I'm not disputing you.  I'm just saying casting spells seems like the better solution for most battles, since mages are indespensible for CC, aoe, etc.

[JamesX]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

JamesX wrote...

You have Arcane warrior, so I am assuming you are level 7+?
You start the game with 20 Strength as human (if you put your points into strength), by the time you get to level 6 you will have 38 strength to use almost every sword in the game.
Arcane Warrior do not gain a damage bonus compared to any other job. They use spellpower for damage, but warriors use Strength. There is no inherent bonus there either.
I assume you are using Startfang? Which is what I use. There is no way you can do more damage than a Warrior.
If your arcane warrior does more damage than your true warrior - in sheer melee then you are doing something VASTLY wrong with your Warrior.

Level 12, as I've said. I have 60+ magic at the moment. So Arcane warriors have a huge advantage there. Warriors need Dex, Str, Con.... I just need to spend 4/5 on magic and 1/5 on willpower. Arcane Warriors gain damage bonuses with Combat Magic.

I'm doing nothing wrong with my warrior. There's not much wrong to be done, is there? For example, I just got Oghren. Haven't had much time to "do wrong" with him, yet he's doing a lot less dmg.

Arcane Warrior gains his Spellpower inplace of strength for damage (not sure about attack, I miss way more often on my arcane warrior than my warrior).  There is no inherent advantage when compared with the Strength of a Warrior.

You are comparing your main character which would receive at least 8 points higher stats than most NPCs because you do the fade quest, and also because you probably used the book on yourself, and you probably have the best gear in the party.

Compare him to a Warrior Main and you will see the difference.  Or just pump up Ogrin's dual wield (don't need Sword Shield since that is Alister) and give him your sword and control him for a while.  You will see your arcane warrior's melee damage is not anything special.

[Zenthar Aseth]

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

Care to do some maths, then? If my AW hits for an average of 70+ damage per hit and I hit twice in the time it takes to cast a spell, how do you outdamage me? Arcane bolt, Lightning.. you name it does about 50~ damage per hit and they have cooldown time. And all the AoE spells don't do that much damage to a single target - so they do about 50 dmg per second too, perhaps. Even if in theory they did, what stops the AW from casting the AoE and then fighting with the sword?

First of all, I don't think you hit twice as fast to cast a spell.  Last I check most of those are instant cast, except the big ones like tempest.

You're right that single target dmg might be better... however, you're fully buffing your arcane warrior.  What if the single target get's hexed?  What about spell wisp?  Or spell might?  A fully buffed caster vs fully buffed melee would have close numbers at the least.

Anyway, enough arguing.  You're right that arcane warriors are good at melee -- I'm not disputing you.  I'm just saying casting spells seems like the better solution for most battles, since mages are indespensible for CC, aoe, etc.

Almost twice as fast with Haste on. Arcane bolt, fireball etc have projective travel time. Fully buffing my Arcane Warrior? Hmm, I have two buffs on him at the moment. I'm not getting your "what if the target gets hexed" stuff? If my target gets hexed, I hit for more damage, eh? Or do you mean if I get hexed? Well, then I use spells. Spell Wisp gives AW's more damage, too.. and what about it? AW can use it as well. Spell might, too.

The whole point is: if casting spells is the better solution, you can do it. If it's not, you don't. I cast spells in every battle I am in.. but I just do more damage with my swings. The spells are more control-oriented.

[Zenthar Aseth]

JamesX wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

JamesX wrote...

You have Arcane warrior, so I am assuming you are level 7+?
You start the game with 20 Strength as human (if you put your points into strength), by the time you get to level 6 you will have 38 strength to use almost every sword in the game.
Arcane Warrior do not gain a damage bonus compared to any other job. They use spellpower for damage, but warriors use Strength. There is no inherent bonus there either.
I assume you are using Startfang? Which is what I use. There is no way you can do more damage than a Warrior.
If your arcane warrior does more damage than your true warrior - in sheer melee then you are doing something VASTLY wrong with your Warrior.

Level 12, as I've said. I have 60+ magic at the moment. So Arcane warriors have a huge advantage there. Warriors need Dex, Str, Con.... I just need to spend 4/5 on magic and 1/5 on willpower. Arcane Warriors gain damage bonuses with Combat Magic.

I'm doing nothing wrong with my warrior. There's not much wrong to be done, is there? For example, I just got Oghren. Haven't had much time to "do wrong" with him, yet he's doing a lot less dmg.

Arcane Warrior gains his Spellpower inplace of strength for damage (not sure about attack, I miss way more often on my arcane warrior than my warrior).  There is no inherent advantage when compared with the Strength of a Warrior.

You are comparing your main character which would receive at least 8 points higher stats than most NPCs because you do the fade quest, and also because you probably used the book on yourself, and you probably have the best gear in the party.

Compare him to a Warrior Main and you will see the difference.  Or just pump up Ogrin's dual wield (don't need Sword Shield since that is Alister) and give him your sword and control him for a while.  You will see your arcane warrior's melee damage is not anything special.

There is an advantage. You get extra damage from Combat Magic, as I said. And you use Spellpower, indeed - it can be improved with spells/items. Another advantage. Warriors can't improve strength with their abilities. And as I said, you can spend way more points in Magic than you can in Strength... that's an advantage, too.

Yes, I took the stat difference into account. I let Oghren use my gear for comparison. The difference is not much - but the point is that I am a mage and do more damage, even if just slightly, in melee.

[Obode]

spellsword + 2 slotted dagger = Dps monster, and yes my arcane warrior can easily out damage a warrior.. the only problem is holding agroo as I wear reaper vestment, then again I can solo pretty much anything even arch demon, as all my resistance are 75+ and psy is 96 and mental 100.

Shield is for weaklings

[Zenthar Aseth]

Your resistances are so big because of the 3rd Arcane Warrior ability, yes?

[Curry Noodles]

Zenthar, you are arguing two different things at once now. The post I was talking about was specifically where you said that a normal mage can't do the same damage in melee as an AW, which is false.



Obviously an AW can pick those up as well, but there are two issues with this.



One, you need items that aren't as melee friendly, and two, you have a limited number of talents. For your AW to outdamage melee you need the equivalent of two full talent trees. For storm of the century or the death hex combo you need 8 or 9 talents, which isn't a small investment. Add in the 4 for Arcane warrior and you're now left without the talents you need to get the proper buffs to outdamage a warrior in melee until maybe a few hours from the end of the game. More importantly, you'd have to turn on all your buffs every round, which, having played an AW myself, I know takes up quite a bit of time. You can solve this using blood magic by grabbing another talent, but every extra blood magic talent you take uses up another talent.



Honestly, AW is exceedingly powerful, but I don't think it's really much more powerful than a normal mage is on its own. The blood magic/AW combo is very strong, but its strength lies more in survivability than pure damage output since you can vomit out the same amount of damage as a generic mage.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Curry, that's why you work in tandem with party members to use the spell combos. E.G Morrigan having the Death Hex, myself having the Death Cloud. Granted, I tried it and didn't like the combo so I didn't take it. Way too limiting and slow.. 250~ damage to a single target... takes about 5-6 seconds to do that. You do about the same with melee attacks or a few spells in the same time. But Morrigan has Grease and I have Fireball for that particular combo..



Normal mage CANNOT do the same damage in melee as an AW. That is obviously true. How could he?



At level 12 I have had about 15-16 spells to pick.. that's more than enough for anything I need. Just now I was having a hard time deciding what to take as I don't really need anything but the AW talents which are level-locked ATM..



I still disagree about normal mage being able to damage as much. I can see no way that's going to happen since AW deals VASTLY superior damage with his normal attacks.. superior to even the spells so I only use the damage ones in very special circumstances.. and note... I've pumped Magic and spellpower like hell so that's not the issue with my damage spells.



Why do you need to turn on the buffs all the time? I have Combat Magic and Miasma enabled all the time, pretty much. Morrigan handles Haste and other buffs.



I'll give you that, though, that going in to melee is not always the best choice. In Orzammar in the Jaina (? Underground queen) fight I switched on my robe and equipped Final Reason after dying twice with my AW gear.. and then I won. But I only had 1 AW talent at that point, though. Still. Different situations call for different tactics and I say again.. this is the best part about the AW. Versatility. And looking bad ass.

[Sythion]

AW's third ability (shimmer shield), makes him flat out invincible at the expensive of any casting ability. Luckily it goes great with all the other sustained buffs.

[JamesX]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...
There is an advantage. You get extra damage from Combat Magic, as I said. And you use Spellpower, indeed - it can be improved with spells/items. Another advantage. Warriors can't improve strength with their abilities. And as I said, you can spend way more points in Magic than you can in Strength... that's an advantage, too.

Yes, I took the stat difference into account. I let Oghren use my gear for comparison. The difference is not much - but the point is that I am a mage and do more damage, even if just slightly, in melee.

You also get tons extra damage from melee feats.  Which you seems to ignore.  You want to spent ALL your points into Magic that is upto you.  Keep in mind spellpower is not a direct relationship.   Where Strength is a direct bonus to damage 1 for 1.  Magic is I believe 0.5 or something per Spell power.
Where is a warrior need to spent points on Dex but so does an Arcane Warrior.  So that cancels out.  Where is a Warrior need to spent points on Willpower, so does an Arcane Warrior.  The only difference is Stamina, which you will have to spent on anyways if you don't want to be knocked down or stunted (physical resist).
You are a mage with all your buff doing only slightly more damage as a normal warrior using no active abilities and you call that even?

[Zenthar Aseth]

JamesX wrote...

Zenthar Aseth wrote...
There is an advantage. You get extra damage from Combat Magic, as I said. And you use Spellpower, indeed - it can be improved with spells/items. Another advantage. Warriors can't improve strength with their abilities. And as I said, you can spend way more points in Magic than you can in Strength... that's an advantage, too.

Yes, I took the stat difference into account. I let Oghren use my gear for comparison. The difference is not much - but the point is that I am a mage and do more damage, even if just slightly, in melee.

You also get tons extra damage from melee feats.  Which you seems to ignore.  You want to spent ALL your points into Magic that is upto you.  Keep in mind spellpower is not a direct relationship.   Where Strength is a direct bonus to damage 1 for 1.  Magic is I believe 0.5 or something per Spell power.
Where is a warrior need to spent points on Dex but so does an Arcane Warrior.  So that cancels out.  Where is a Warrior need to spent points on Willpower, so does an Arcane Warrior.  The only difference is Stamina, which you will have to spent on anyways if you don't want to be knocked down or stunted (physical resist).
You are a mage with all your buff doing only slightly more damage as a normal warrior using no active abilities and you call that even?

Uh, no. AW does not need to spend 1 point in Dex .And what are these melee feats that give tons of extra damage? Do you mean talents? I don't mention them because my spells are a lot more useful.... so all they have over me is their normal damage. My spellpower is almost 1:1 to my Magic however... and my Magic is 60+. Warriors need to spend points on STR, DEX, CON, WILLPOWER.  AWs need to spend points on Magic and willpower.

I'm a mage with all my buffs doing more damage than warriors and using active abilities all the time.. so you were saying?

[Skemte]

Mages in general are ridiculous and overpower.. Not only do their spells have little mana cost to literally spam with a huge amoutn of lyrium.. Buuuttt they are not limited like the warrior or rogue in weapon specs.. As a mage your able to go into ALL specs with out gimping your self.. While for warrior if you go dual wielding nothing synergizes over for the other two specs for example.. Than you have ridiculous oped specializations like arcane warrior.

[Zenthar Aseth]

I agree that mages are way more powerful than the other classes.. I thought my rogue was good but now..

[Stonedog]

What about playing a mage like say a Herald of Xotli type? (Age of Conan for those of you who are not familiar already). Basically forgoing heavy armor for normal mage armor with a 2H? That way no spell penalties so more casting. They will be a lot squishier but...anyway has anyone tried that playstyle?

[Zenthar Aseth]

I tried it before I used heavy armor. It's stupid, really. You're VERY VERY squishy. The benefits of using heavy armor far outweight the negatives

[Stonedog]

Yeah I guess I was just thinking with the lowered cost of mana you could run more stuff and have more for heals and it might equal out.

[Zenthar Aseth]

I didn't notice the lowered mana cost.. is it much? Honestly, I saw no difference really.



Although using robes might be possible after you have the third AW talent.. it's supposed to add a lot to your defense.. but why not just use armor anyways?

[dk3dknight]

All I have to say is...







dk approves of Arcane Warrior ^ My mage above with spell weaver sword.

[Dawnhorn]

To answer the questions as to why play an AW over Warrior is simply playing a different style. It's a very interesting approach. Think if you took Alistair, for instance: had him self buffed with 8-10 sustained spells, the ability to heal, the ability to resist 75% to all magic, and put out equal damage!



Mage is so versatile. I loved being a full support healer until I got Wynne. I never planned on becoming an Arcane Warrior because I was the main healer for my group. But, I came across a few situations that a second mage would help (my group was usually warrior, archer, rogue, mage). So, I dropped the rogue and added Wynne (Morrigan's RP is more for my next game). Well, we were able to conquer much more yet something was missing. I actually came across Arcane Warrior before I got Spirit Healer. So, I went for it.



My first impressions were clunky. I did not trust leaving behind my awesome looking robes (which I put on in towns) and wanted to main heal. But, once I popped my support buffs and invested in trees with more sustained abilities (damage mitigation, group buffs, etc) - I was unstoppable. I solo'd bosses, was the last one standing in large ambushes, and was able to steadily do the same damage as my main tank.



Some people build AW to be a complete damage dealer. That's fine as well. Mine is mostly a support, offtank, amazing character. I never invested in anything other than the core mage stats and can take more hits/same damage/same healing output as my other members. I sacrifice a bit of my 'main healer' ability as I can't have all my buffs active at once while healing...but I can stand in the front lines and dominate on Nightmare Mode with more versatility than any other character.



Mage can be: Healer, Glass-Cannon, Crowd Control, Support, and all variations of those schools of magic with the ability to throw in melee when in the AW tree.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Yup.. there it comes again: versatility

BTW, have you fought the Dragon yet? How did you fare?

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 13 novembre 2009 - 10:09 .

[CraigCWB]

"And the best part? Looking bad ass. I've got two-handed Starfang and some Dwarven Heavy armor now."



I haven't seen any characters in this game that look "badass" yet, except for the Shadowspawn. And the heavier the armor the worse it looks imo. Have you ever played any games where the models actually look good, to do a comparison? Bioware should have hired a new 3D modeller way back when they were developing Neverwinter nights. Of course this is just my opinion, but not really! Look at your human male model. He's knock-kneed, isn't he? And then look at the female humans. Opposite. Bow-legged. Horrible. They've improved on the 3D modelling but they still have a long way to go. Anyway, if you like to think that your guy looks "badass" more power to you! I wish I looked at my characters and thought that, instead of thinking they look like a bunch of dweebs in cheap rental costumes.