106 réponses à ce sujet

[Bluko]

The Geth aren't really good guys, even if they aren't outright hostile. The fact of the matter is the Geth still kind of have a bone to pick with the Quarians about themselves. They may be allies or they may not.

Also their isolationist attitude and the fact that they are trying to build a super mind is a bit unnerving. Are they going to figure out how to divide by zero or something? It seems a bit silly they're basically planning to live in a sphere all together and just think about stuff forever. Which makes me wonder if the Geth might not end up becoming Reaper like. They're going to have to interact with the rest of the galaxy at some point for some reason. If all the Geth do turn against organics, it'll leave the galaxy in a very volatile state.

The Geth were interesting enemies and it's too bad we most likely won't fight them again in ME3. They have a lot of potential to be more unique then most other foes. The Geth Hoppers were pretty nifty in ME1. But about all the diversity in ME2 enemies is their various protections.

[marshalleck]

Bluko wrote...

Also their isolationist attitude and the fact that they are trying to build a super mind is a bit unnerving. Are they going to figure out how to divide by zero or something? It seems a bit silly they're basically planning to live in a sphere all together and just think about stuff forever. 

The geth are not their mobile platforms, they are programs. Information. Why would they not want to congregate in a huge super computer where they can all share information at the speed of light? They aren't isolationist per se, they just understand that they are fundamentally unlike organics and don't share the biological motives organics do which result in social organization--mating pairs, families, communities, nations, civilizations.

[slxiii]

True, there is no reason to trust legion. There is also no reason to distrust him.

[Bluko]

marshalleck wrote...

The geth are not their mobile platforms, they are programs. Information. Why would they not want to congregate in a huge super computer where they can all share information at the speed of light? They aren't isolationist per se, they just understand that they are fundamentally unlike organics and don't share the biological motives organics do which result in social organization--mating pairs, families, communities, nations, civilizations.

I know, but the fact is the Geth will have to maintain some mobile platforms. I mean unless their Dyson sphere has some sort of super shield, what's to stop some organic race from attacking/possibly destroying it? And the Geth still need some form of resources to exist as they still consume energy and build things. While they can manage to be independent then most organic species, even they would probably benefit from trading materials and or acquiring some technological data from Organics.

[Dean_the_Young]

Triiumph wrote...

I was sort of bummed out when I activated Legion to find out that the majority of geth are "good guys". i thought it was cool that there was a geth not trying to kill you but i would have rather the minority been geth who didn't want war with the rest of the galaxy rather than the majority. I liked that there was another enemy to the galaxy besides the reapers. Added depth to the storyline. Now were are pretty much slotted for everyone vs the reapers in ME3

Well, if you believe Legion.

But believing Legion is like believing that foreign guy from a country no one else has ever been to, and so he could be talking any amount of **** and you would never know the difference because you can't verify. If Legion was malevolent and simply hiding it for the Geth's own purposes, he'd be... well, not necessarily good.



Mind you, in my paragon playthrough all Geth are bad geth, Legion was sold to Cerberus for study because they've never shown any indication of being otherwise, and I have a feeling they never will in the future either. :innocent:

[marshalleck]

Bluko wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The geth are not their mobile platforms, they are programs. Information. Why would they not want to congregate in a huge super computer where they can all share information at the speed of light? They aren't isolationist per se, they just understand that they are fundamentally unlike organics and don't share the biological motives organics do which result in social organization--mating pairs, families, communities, nations, civilizations.

I know, but the fact is the Geth will have to maintain some mobile platforms. I mean unless their Dyson sphere has some sort of super shield, what's to stop some organic race from attacking/possibly destroying it? And the Geth still need some form of resources to exist as they still consume energy and build things. While they can manage to be independent then most organic species, even they would probably benefit from trading materials and or acquiring some technological data from Organics.

Of course they would maintain their platforms for physical activities, Legion never said they'd lock themselves in a computer for eternity. And as programs temporarily downloaded to a mobile platform with archival backups in case of mishap, they can acquire whatever resources they need with maximum efficiency--that's why the quarians built them in the first place. They can even gather resources from environments that would be impossible for organic beings to survive in. The geth don't necessarily need to trade with anyone. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 janvier 2011 - 09:58 .

[Aradace]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

There is no reason to believe anything Legion is saying. All of our interaction throughout both games (except Legion) points to the fact that the Geth are completely hostile towards organic life. I'm not throwing that all away based on one mobile platform saying, "hey, we're not bad, really." Legion's words are the only thing that points to Geth desiring peace with organics. I find it far more likely that he was simply on an espionage mission and dupes the Shepard that doesn't sell him to Cerberus into thinking he's a buddy. I almost always sell Legion to Cerberus.

well, to quote the Senechal "I guess it's better to be a touch paranoid than end up face down in a ditch somewhere" lol.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'd think two genocidal wars, including an attempt at wiping out all organic life in the galaxy, would stand as evidence regarding Geth intentions.

[Nightwriter]

The geth - or I should say, the true geth as represented by Legion - come across with this strange innocence that simply makes it difficult to think of them in a terribly threatening way.

[Dean_the_Young]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd think two genocidal wars, including an attempt at wiping out all organic life in the galaxy, would stand as evidence regarding Geth intentions.

The Germans are widely believed to have started both World Wars (WW1 is always such a thing, WW2 is easy to tell), one having been nothing short of an catastrophe, the other having been outright genocidal (WWII actually coined the term).

Does that make germans enemy to all people forever?

Is waging genocidal wars about the only involvement the Germans have had with anyone else throughout their history?

No, so no.

Besides the Mourning War was a normal war as far as we can tell as far as being objective let's us to be with the sources we have (a possibly lying Legion and exaggerating or outright propagandish Quarians).

The current Quarian population is 17 million. The pre-war population of the Quarians was in the billions. Even if we assume they 'only' had a population of current-day Earth, about 7 billion, and that the Migrant Fleet started at 17 million from the getgo, that's a 99.76% genocide, and that .24 percent is because some Quarians managed to get away, not because the Geth stopped/

Alas, that isn't normal. That's incredibly exceptional.

As for the second war, aka Sovereign's plan, (some) Geth participated. It is said Geth cannot be hacked for much time, but the Reapers might be exceptionally better at hacking and understanding AI routines than those people that tried on the Geth. If Legion is to be believed, the Reapers (and Sovereign in spe) are capable of hacking Geth for consistent periods of time. They may not be able to do so. There could be any number of reasons why (some of) the Geth followed Sovereign.

If Legion is to be believed, Sovereign never hacked any geth, and conveniently many of them supported him freely and willingly.

If Legion is not to be believed, there need never have been a Geth/Heretic split in the first place, and this can easily all be a gambit by the Geth.

[V-rex]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'd think two genocidal wars, including an attempt at wiping out all organic life in the galaxy, would stand as evidence regarding Geth intentions.

The first one was self defence though, the Quarians struck first and tried to deactivate the Geth, they fought back to survive and after a long war, succeeded in pushing the Quarians off the planet and after that, they didn't forge giant 'KILL ALL QUARIAN FILTH' style fleets and roam the galaxy looking for people to murderize. For over three hundred years all they were doing was building their own civilization and trying to understand their place in the galaxy.
Yes it's true that had the Quarians stayed then they would have been finished off by the Geth, so it wasn't mercy so much as luck that any Quarians made it out but here's the thing:
The same applies to the Geth. Had the Geth not kept fighting, the Quarians would have and then the Geth would be wiped out. It's pretty simple really, own kind first, would rather the genocide of others than that of our own.

And it still needs to be said, three hundred years, no death fleets, no anti Quarian murder parties, no nothing.

So if anything, the huge as hell gap between those two wars tells us a lot about Geth intent. Namely that they aren't genocidal by nature.

The second one, not all the Geth. Plain and simple, a faction that split from the main sect that followed the way of Soveriegn and Saren and became a makeshift army, almost as soon as Soveriegn had been defeated, most of that faction were obliterated along with it. And now two years later, a Geth is working with Shepard and opposing the Reapers.... why bother to recon Shepard's progress if Legion could just shoot him? Or blow up the Normandy?

Seriously, the game makes it really, really, really clear that Shepard is the only one in the galaxy who can stop the Reapers. With that in mind, why doesn't Legion just shoot him with the sniper? Or blow up the Derelict Reaper while he's on it? Why bother to recon and gain the trust of the enemy when you can just take him out?

Also, to Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams.... I have a lot of respect for you, you've made some good posts in the past and are a welcome contributor to the Ashley thread, you've probably been here longer than me, but regardless:

What is the difference between judging Legion and judging Cerberus?

Seriously, by your accounts Legion is a GETH and GETH were all evil and killers in Mass Effect 1 with no morals or ethics or any signs of individuality or any indication of seperate factions. In Mass Effect 2, you suddenly find a Geth telling you all these things happened, that there are split factions and stuff, and you don't believe it.
It helps you numerous times, willingly allows you to decide the fate of an entire station and is prepared to die fighting alongside you in the suicide mission

But then of course, Cerberus.... a group with a reputation of being fanatically pro human, extreme in their methods, brutal and amoral in their research tendancies and violent and dangerous in their attacks. We see them feed people to Thresher Maws, perform illegal and vile experiments, commit murders on a large scale and generally all associated with them are considered the worst parts about humanity.
Then in Mass Effect 2, they are funding your mission and are helping you out. Denying a lot of things they've done or finding ways to justify it and talking about how their methods might be brutal but their goals are noble.... and yet all you have as evidence is word of the leader of the organization.
Who only so happens to lie to you like, three times. And of whom looks like a James Bond Villain from SPACE.

Why is Cerberus suddenly trustworthy to the point where you utterly rely on them for aid... but Legion isn't? Both come from shady backgrounds, both are willing to work for and with you and both do things to help you when they could have betrayed you.... why is Cerberus more deserving of trust then Legion is?
Yes, you can't know for sure if Legion means to help you truly but really, can you be so sure about TIM? I mean, like I said, he lies many times and if you give him the Collector base he gives this really evil looking smile at the end of it.....

Also to all the people talking about how Geth 'could be a threat' later down the line and therefore you should take them out now when you have a chance.... wasn't that kind of the Quarians attitude as well? I.E 'they are now sentient, they might be a risk, let's kill them all!!!!!!!' Because I mean that turned out so well before.

Seriously, I would have thought the fact that the Geth have a huge, possibly limitless, supply of disposable soldiers, advanced weaponry and technology and some of the best computer hacking skill in existence would be a pretty good reason to not want to make them into enemies.

Modifié par V-rex, 07 janvier 2011 - 10:58 .

[Teknor]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is waging genocidal wars about the only involvement the Germans have had with anyone else throughout their history?

No, so no.

Geth monitored galaxy and watched and studied organics extensively to understand the quarians' judgement so no they didn't just commit genocide.

Modifié par Teknor, 07 janvier 2011 - 11:00 .

[FlintlockJazz]

V-rex wrote...

The first one was self defence though, the Quarians struck first and tried to deactivate the Geth, they fought back to survive and after a long war, succeeded in pushing the Quarians off the planet and after that, they didn't forge giant 'KILL ALL QUARIAN FILTH' style fleets and roam the galaxy looking for people to murderize. For over three hundred years all they were doing was building their own civilization and trying to understand their place in the galaxy.
Yes it's true that had the Quarians stayed then they would have been finished off by the Geth, so it wasn't mercy so much as luck that any Quarians made it out but here's the thing:
The same applies to the Geth. Had the Geth not kept fighting, the Quarians would have and then the Geth would be wiped out. It's pretty simple really, own kind first, would rather the genocide of others than that of our own.

And it still needs to be said, three hundred years, no death fleets, no anti Quarian murder parties, no nothing.

First off, people need to understand that it was not the Quarians as a whole who decided to kill the Geth but the Quarian government, I doubt very much that the average Quarian's opinion altered the decision made by their leaders, if in fact they even knew the geth were gaining sapience at  all (if they were trying to keep the knowledge of the Geth's sapience secret from the Citadel Council then it could not have been widespread information).  When Americans attack a country is it the American people who decide or the government?  The latter of course.

Second, the geth slaughtered billions, this includes women and children.  And before any says "Well when you bomb a city..." the geth and Quarians were living side by side, bombing whole cities would've killed themselves too, so no they didn't.  The geth undertook action to exterminate all organic life on their planet regardless of it's guilt or association (we know they killed non-Quarians too, at least asari due to that pureblood on Illium losing her mate).  And before anyone says "The poor ickle geth didn't know any better, they were like children and did not know..." yes they did know.  Many geth were teaching devices and had access to all the Quarian history and cultural data, they knew about how organic society viewed children and how they are helpless and have no influence at that stage, and they didn't care.  All they cared about was getting rid off all the organics that was anywhere near them.  Sure, they didn't chase after them once they left Quarian/Geth space, but that's because there's nothing they want out there yet.  If at that time they wanted more space to live in I'm sure they would have carried on slaughtering until they got the area of space they wanted at that time.  May have changed now but that makes no difference (the guilty Quarians are long dead, are the guilty Geth dead?).

I think it would have been better if Bioware had set it so that the 'good' geth were the minority, fighting to free themselves from the larger 'heretic' group (it would also have made more sense if the good faction were the ones called heretics, since they were blaspheming against the Reaper religion the bad geth follow), with Legion sent to find Shepard to get him to help liberate his people.  It's for the same reason why I think having humans as both 'special' and the underdog race doesn't really work in ME1: people like the underdog because it is fighting against overwhelming odds, but by being 'special' (and knowing it) you lose out on that sympathy.  By making the true geth the overwhelmingly larger faction you kinda lose sympathy for their 'plight'.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 07 janvier 2011 - 12:37 .

[JuicElawl]

Bluko wrote...

The Geth were interesting enemies and it's too bad we most likely won't fight them again in ME3. They have a lot of potential to be more unique then most other foes. The Geth Hoppers were pretty nifty in ME1. But about all the diversity in ME2 enemies is their various protections.

i think the geth could be an adversary in a future me sequel, tho. right now, shep is a convenient ally cuz he opposes heretics and old machines, just like they do. if they defeat reapers and heretics together.... the need for alliance is over. and if the geth expand rapidly into organic space, things could get interesting.

[Deathwurm]

Bluko wrote...

...The Geth were interesting enemies and it's too bad we most likely won't fight them again in ME3...

You don't think we'll see them in ME3?
If that's true I, too will be disappointed.
I think we may see them, though...they seem to be doing a lot of neccessary Dirty Work for their Evil Masters and they make good disposable Front Line troops buy virtue of sheer numbers.

[klossen4]

well the races can unite against the reaper invasion after that who knows what can happen?

[V-rex]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

V-rex wrote...

The first one was self defence though, the Quarians struck first and tried to deactivate the Geth, they fought back to survive and after a long war, succeeded in pushing the Quarians off the planet and after that, they didn't forge giant 'KILL ALL QUARIAN FILTH' style fleets and roam the galaxy looking for people to murderize. For over three hundred years all they were doing was building their own civilization and trying to understand their place in the galaxy.
Yes it's true that had the Quarians stayed then they would have been finished off by the Geth, so it wasn't mercy so much as luck that any Quarians made it out but here's the thing:
The same applies to the Geth. Had the Geth not kept fighting, the Quarians would have and then the Geth would be wiped out. It's pretty simple really, own kind first, would rather the genocide of others than that of our own.

And it still needs to be said, three hundred years, no death fleets, no anti Quarian murder parties, no nothing.

First off, people need to understand that it was not the Quarians as a whole who decided to kill the Geth but the Quarian government, I doubt very much that the average Quarian's opinion altered the decision made by their leaders, if in fact they even knew the geth were gaining sapience at  all (if they were trying to keep the knowledge of the Geth's sapience secret from the Citadel Council then it could not have been widespread information).  When Americans attack a country is it the American people who decide or the government?  The latter of course.

Actually, in an ideal government, it's actions are called for by it's people. They vote on whether or not to go to war and with what party. Unless an enemy is genuienly attacking and action needs to be taken we typically get to vote and decide what the course of action should be.
So, considering they weren't really a threat at that stage it was decided to welcome a newly sentient race with an immediate death threat, thus giving them many reasons to defend themselves and fear organics. Way to go.

Second, the geth slaughtered billions, this includes women and children.  And before any says "Well when you bomb a city..." the geth and Quarians were living side by side, bombing whole cities would've killed themselves too, so no they didn't.  The geth undertook action to exterminate all organic life on their planet regardless of it's guilt or association (we know they killed non-Quarians too, at least asari due to that pureblood on Illium losing her mate).  And before anyone says "The poor ickle geth didn't know any better, they were like children and did not know..." yes they did know.  Many geth were teaching devices and had access to all the Quarian history and cultural data, they knew about how organic society viewed children and how they are helpless and have no influence at that stage, and they didn't care.  All they cared about was getting rid off all the organics that was anywhere near them.  Sure, they didn't chase after them once they left Quarian/Geth space, but that's because there's nothing they want out there yet.  If at that time they wanted more space to live in I'm sure they would have carried on slaughtering until they got the area of space they wanted at that time.  May have changed now but that makes no difference (the guilty Quarians are long dead, are the guilty Geth dead?).

It is worth remembering that the Geth were fighting for survival here as well. If they just let it go quietly then they would all be genocided, all of them, every single one. For nothing other then the crime of asking 'do I have a soul'? Now yes, it is true that the Quarian Goverment ordered it, not the standard Quarian. But here's the question?
How do you manage to defeat and overthrow the Quarian Goverment, a government reigning over a whole planet, without killing millions in the process?
How do you overthrow a government, and an army, owning a planet in a way that doesn't involve forcing them all to leave? The Geth now had an enemy that could destroy their entire race with a carefully timed button pressing, with that in mind of course the decision to preserve their own existence came up. Who cares if the Quarians were young, or old or anything in between? If they grew up, they could try that again.

They were fighting for their right to survive, I'm not saying what they did was justified but it certainly shouldn't have been demonized either. I mean come on, after they started that war do you really think the Quarians would have accepted a peace treaty or a surrender? The same government that tried to kill their entire race off just like that? They couldn't try for peace from the start and they couldn't start a war and then try to surrender, they had to accept that the Quarians had attempted genocide, with that in mind they had to do the same thing if they wanted to live. Any fledgling race would do the same if it meant being able to survive, human history alone has had that happen hundreds of times over.

They probably saw it as a case of 'us or them' in this instance, I.e that both groups were now fighting for their own races survival and it would mean the destruction of the other, the Geth weren't going to be slaves and they didn't want to die. Hence they chose to force the Quarians off their planet. It was either that or accept that one day, they could try to destroy the entire Geth race again. And given that the Geth are still technically machines, it would mean that they could potentially do that quite easily.

Bottom line, odds are Geth saw this as a case of 'we can't live alongside them anymore, they tried once, they could try again, if we want to continue living, they have to go'. It's not evil, it's a survival instinct.

Also, just because they have access to Quarian history and date doesn't mean they'll understand it right away. You can spend years trying to teach a turtle of how and why birds can fly, even if you found a way to educate it, it still wouldn't get it because it's a turtle and flight is pointless to it.
Same with Geth, they don't have children, they would understand the value of children to organics, but without knowing what it is like to have children they could never truly understand. Similarly, I doubt they would care about the cultural values of the race that just tried to indiscriminantly wipe them all out when they didn't want to be slaves anymore.

Also while the 'guilty' Quarians are long dead, new ones have taken their places, just as warhungry as before. Similarly maybe the 'guilty' Geth were the ones that left to join Sovereign, or maybe since then their views have changed. I dunno.

I think it would have been better if Bioware had set it so that the 'good' geth were the minority, fighting to free themselves from the larger 'heretic' group (it would also have made more sense if the good faction were the ones called heretics, since they were blaspheming against the Reaper religion the bad geth follow), with Legion sent to find Shepard to get him to help liberate his people.  It's for the same reason why I think having humans as both 'special' and the underdog race doesn't really work in ME1: people like the underdog because it is fighting against overwhelming odds, but by being 'special' (and knowing it) you lose out on that sympathy.  By making the true geth the overwhelmingly larger faction you kinda lose sympathy for their 'plight'.

I don't. Sure they commited mass murder on a huge scale, but honestly in that kind of a situation, I think a lot of people would do the same if they needed to. Or at least, if they felt they needed to. They were born into this world and immediatley met with fear and prejudice and attempts to shut them down, they fought back with newfound reasons to fear organics. Now, hundreds of years later and all they want to do is build their society in peace, a breakaway faction now becomes the public image for their entire people and they run the risk of it happening to them all over again.

Even though they are open to the idea of peace with the Quarians, about 98% of all conflicts between Geth and Quarians are instigated by the Quarians, which in turn doesn't give Geth a reason to trust them. Not to mention the many, many plans of weapons research, attacks, plans of genocide and even plans to make them lose their free will again are constantly being pushed forward by Quarian armies while all the Geth are trying to do is maintain their society.

Let me make something clear here, I feel for the Quarians. I know that their situation is pretty lousy, but I also know that their leaders put them there and their stubborn refusal to let the past be the past is what's keeping them there. I fully endorse peace between both groups, but I also want to point out that... come on, at the midway point in the war would the Quarians really have been any more merciful? And could the Geth have survived at all if they hadn't started that war?

EDIT: By the way, if I offended you in any way or came across as rude or harsh, I apologise. If we must continue this debate, I would rather we did so in a civil and friendly and frank sort of way. Rather than like so many other web arguments I've had in the past.

Modifié par V-rex, 07 janvier 2011 - 01:44 .

[V-rex]

mrsph wrote...

None of the species are good guys.

Also this:

No one whole race can ever be labelled under a single moral label of 'good' or 'bad'.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

To the people who don't believe anything Legion is saying and believes that what he's talked about and done is all some sort of complex lie to fool Shepard I will point to one thing. The Codex. The Codex is updated when Legion begins to talk about his people and what they're all about.



The Codex backs him up on what he says and the Codex is written by the developers of the game and is meant to be taken as fact. When the Codex says that there's a faction of Geth one evil and one that wants to be left alone than that's it there are.



Codex = ME Facts. So if Legion says things that are backed up by the Codex than what he says are ME facts.