106 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Yes, it does. I explained this in a post earlier. These actions were necessary to get undercover with Shepard.

Even donating to the Eden Prime relief fund anonymously? And everything else? Shepard didn't even know about that, she had to learn it from the Shadow Broker. And if the geth are working wholeheartedly for the Reapers, one would think that Legion would try to kill them all while in the Collector base... by that point, for Legion to be working for the Reapers requires as many mental loops as thinking that TIM is.

[ElectricZ]

didymos1120 wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

There is no reason to believe anything Legion is saying.

Sure, provided you completely ignore all of his deeds.

I think this is a key point to this entire argument. Shepard's decision to turn Legion on in the game is a bit iffy...Certainly at that point Legion's nature hasn't been established, so it's purely just curiosity on Shepard's part to find out why it can talk, why it knows Shepard's name, and why its wearing some N7 armor.

But if Legion was sent purely to give organics a warm fuzzy about geth just so they could stab us in the back later, it's a fairly illogical plan. Legion IS a substantially more advanced geth platform and having it fall into the hands of the organics (either by Shepard selling it to Cerberus or otherwise) would be quite risky. The geth monitor organic broadcasts and the extranet, and have can hack their way into every network in existance, so spying would be of limited use... And if Legion is an agent of the reapers tailor made to take Shepard out, he should have done so at first contact.

Instead, Legion faithfully follows the squad around, participates in whatever missions it is tasked with, defends its shipmates in battle, and with proper persuasion by Shepard will peacefully coexist with its only bona-fide enemy, Tali, aboard ship.

More telling, it gives Shepard and the Normandy crew the opportunity to board and sabotage an entire geth space platform. Sure it could have all been a ruse - maybe it was mostly empty and all Shepard and co. did was blow up some decoy platforms and then push a button that allegedly rewrote/destroyed the heretic geth. But with the technological skills of the team, along with EDI, I think they would have been able to smell a rat.

Most telling to me, though, is Legion's Shadow Broker file. Legion plays games with the skill of an AI and protested accusations it was cheating, because by its logic it's not... Yet it did accept punishment for talking smack to the other players, which it clearly knew that it had been doing. (integrity)  In a game where there are no repercussions it still went out of its way to avoid killing slaves. (empathy) And in a roundabout way, it donated money to Eden Prime by purchasing a game simulating the geth attack on that world and then not playing it. (remorse)

Legion's actions are not those of a genocidal, organic hating AI. The only real question I think that remains is if Legion truly represents the geth viewpoint, or if by being isolated and independent of the collective for two years, it has developed its own logic and emotions, and has effectively become it's own brand of heretic.

But based on Legion's actions, in game I trust it and will be encouraging geth/organic cooperation whenever possible. The galaxy won't be big enough for the both of us if we don't.

[Vaenier]

If it was not for Legion on the Derelict Reaper, Shep would be dead. Shep would be trapped as endless husks attack because Legion was not there to open the core door. Also Legion had plenty of opportunity to snipe Shep, and yet instead shot the husks around her. It was blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain it was not hostile to Shep. That is why its smart to turn it on. Trusting it is another matter.

In regards to the OP: I do like the fact the Geth were not all against organics, but it would have been better if the good Geth were the minority instead of 85%. Having 85% of Geth be peaceful and actually allies just makes the end game kinda stupid. They are completely over powered as a race now, 15% almost killed the entire Council fleet, imagine what 85% will do.

Modifié par Vaenier, 07 janvier 2011 - 02:24 .

[Xilizhra]

Actually, the ratio is 95/5.

[Vaenier]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, the ratio is 95/5.

I am like 85% sure the Heretics were only 15% of the total Geth.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The Codex says that the Heritics could be as small a percentage as 5%. So I think its fair to say that the Heritics at best would be around 10% to the bottome number of 5%.

[Dean_the_Young]

Teknor wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is waging genocidal wars about the only involvement the Germans have had with anyone else throughout their history?

No, so no.

Geth monitored galaxy and watched and studied organics extensively to understand the quarians' judgement so no they didn't just commit genocide.

And who tells you this? Legion, who's validity is in question.

Pretty much all we can independently verify about the Geth is that they killed most the Quarian race, that they've killed any and all external attempts to contact them other than Sovereign's, and that they then joined into Sovereign in an unprovoked war of genocidal aggression against the Alliance, who doesn't even have diplomatic relations with the Quarian race, let alone grief with the Geth.

All other insights into the 'why' come from precisely one source, Legion. If Legion is lying, and nothing but game narrative fiat says he isn't, anything he says or claims is under suspicion. You can't trust a suspected liar on the basis of his testimony.

[Vaenier]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Codex says that the Heritics could be as small a percentage as 5%. So I think its fair to say that the Heritics at best would be around 10% to the bottome number of 5%.

Either way, that makes my point even more valid. Imagine a fleet atleast 20 times the size that attacked the Citadel...

[ElectricZ]

Vaenier wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Codex says that the Heritics could be as small a percentage as 5%. So I think its fair to say that the Heritics at best would be around 10% to the bottome number of 5%.

Either way, that makes my point even more valid. Imagine a fleet atleast 20 times the size that attacked the Citadel...

To be fair, the geth did have a reaper on their side...

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Teknor wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is waging genocidal wars about the only involvement the Germans have had with anyone else throughout their history?

No, so no.

Geth monitored galaxy and watched and studied organics extensively to understand the quarians' judgement so no they didn't just commit genocide.

And who tells you this? Legion, who's validity is in question.

Pretty much all we can independently verify about the Geth is that they killed most the Quarian race, that they've killed any and all external attempts to contact them other than Sovereign's, and that they then joined into Sovereign in an unprovoked war of genocidal aggression against the Alliance, who doesn't even have diplomatic relations with the Quarian race, let alone grief with the Geth.

All other insights into the 'why' come from precisely one source, Legion. If Legion is lying, and nothing but game narrative fiat says he isn't, anything he says or claims is under suspicion. You can't trust a suspected liar on the basis of his testimony.

This is very true. But you are not just trusting on blind faith, you are trusting based on actions and experiences with him too. There is no garentee of anybody telling you the truth in the game, but you accept their word because they act trustful and have not tried to harm you.

[ElectricZ]

D'oh double post

Modifié par ElectricZ, 07 janvier 2011 - 02:55 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Teknor wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Is waging genocidal wars about the only involvement the Germans have had with anyone else throughout their history?

No, so no.

Geth monitored galaxy and watched and studied organics extensively to understand the quarians' judgement so no they didn't just commit genocide.

And who tells you this? Legion, who's validity is in question.

Pretty much all we can independently verify about the Geth is that they killed most the Quarian race, that they've killed any and all external attempts to contact them other than Sovereign's, and that they then joined into Sovereign in an unprovoked war of genocidal aggression against the Alliance, who doesn't even have diplomatic relations with the Quarian race, let alone grief with the Geth.

All other insights into the 'why' come from precisely one source, Legion. If Legion is lying, and nothing but game narrative fiat says he isn't, anything he says or claims is under suspicion. You can't trust a suspected liar on the basis of his testimony.

The Geth defended themselves and allowed the Quarians to continue exsisting, which is more than the Quaraians would have done if the shoe was on the other foot. It was a race war and in that case either one side was going to be wiped out entirlely or one was going to be mostly wiped out. You blame the Geth for not dying, your logic is flawed. The Geth allowed the Quarians to leave, they didn't go after them and they still leave them alone.

Legions's statements are not in doubt because they are supported by the Codex. If you don't believe him and the Codex than that's your problem but when the Codex says something its fact. Period. The Developers wrote the Codex as a way of laying down what is what in the ME universe. If the Codex agrees with Legion than Legion is right.

[Vaenier]

ElectricZ wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Codex says that the Heritics could be as small a percentage as 5%. So I think its fair to say that the Heritics at best would be around 10% to the bottome number of 5%.

Either way, that makes my point even more valid. Imagine a fleet atleast 20 times the size that attacked the Citadel...

To be fair, the geth did have a reaper on their side...

He didnt help though. He ran right by without firing his guns once and just hid inside the Citadel shell. The citadel fleet was completely owned by the Heretic fleet and the heretics would have won if the Alliance reinforcements did not show up.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, it does. I explained this in a post earlier. These actions were necessary to get undercover with Shepard.

Even donating to the Eden Prime relief fund anonymously?A nd everything else? Shepard didn't even know about that, she had to
learn it from the Shadow Broker.

Except it wasn't completely anonymous, was it? If it was, we would never have known.

If we go with a 'Legion is secretly a spy crafting a cover and maintaining a story', it is not at all unconceivable or unrealistic that he would maintain character in all his actions. Infact, we would expect him to. The basic rule of espionage, after all, is to never break cover: you never know who is watching you at any given time. Machines would never have to drop a fake persona. Legion, for whatever reason he is sent, knows that at some point he is likely to be noted/discovered. And he was: after all, he was shot.

So if Legion knows he's going to be tracked, and he knows he's going to be followed as best as the organics can do, and he's intending to maintain a cover from the get go, why wouldn't he occassionally do actions consistent with his character?

And if the geth are working
wholeheartedly for the Reapers, one would think that Legion would try to
kill them all while in the Collector base... by that point, for Legion
to be working for the Reapers requires as many mental loops as thinking
that TIM is.

And why can't or wouldn't a machine race enact Xanatos gambits? Not that you need one, mind you, and not to mention that there are a wide variety of scenarios in which Legion could be lying/manipulating us short of the Reaper-puppet.

Answers can be various, and basically simple. A lack of congruance between Geth priorities and Reaper priorities (what Legion was sent out to do in the absence of Sovereign, and what the Reapers would prefer him to do at that moment, not being the same thing).

An estimation that such an effort on its own isn't likely to succede. (If Saren couldn't stop him, and the Collectors would fail, one geth platform deemed not enough to make a difference).

An evaluation that the gains from doing so (stopping Shepard, delaying the destruction of the Collector Base) isn't worth breaking the cover story. With the Omega 4 relay compromised, the organics can reach the Collector Base regardless, and in such numbers that the Collectors can't succede: accepting the failure of the Collector gambit but not revealing the Geth truth preserves the Geth as an actual Reaper ally, an army that can strike the galaxy in the back at the critical moment rather than be faced and stopped before the Reapers arrive.

[FlintlockJazz]

V-rex wrote...

Actually, in an ideal government, it's actions are called for by it's people. They vote on whether or not to go to war and with what party. Unless an enemy is genuienly attacking and action needs to be taken we typically get to vote and decide what the course of action should be.
So, considering they weren't really a threat at that stage it was decided to welcome a newly sentient race with an immediate death threat, thus giving them many reasons to defend themselves and fear organics. Way to go.

There is no evidence that the Quarians had an 'ideal' government, evidence points to all democratic governments in the ME universe being as flawed as real world governments, and real world democratic governments DO go to war without the consent of their people.  And again, you are presuming that the average Quarian knew that the geth were becoming sapient, a belief that does not hold up to scrutiny: if the average Quarian knew about this then the Citadel Council would have known about it too and there would have been no rush to cover it up to begin with.

So, considering this, to most Quarians this would have been a complete surprise when the geth started slaughtering them, and the geth cleansing their worlds of organics prove that organics were right to fear AI.  Way to go.

V-rex wrote...
It is worth remembering that the Geth were fighting for survival here as well. If they just let it go quietly then they would all be genocided, all of them, every single one. For nothing other then the crime of asking 'do I have a soul'? Now yes, it is true that the Quarian Goverment ordered it, not the standard Quarian. But here's the question?
How do you manage to defeat and overthrow the Quarian Goverment, a government reigning over a whole planet, without killing millions in the process?
How do you overthrow a government, and an army, owning a planet in a way that doesn't involve forcing them all to leave? The Geth now had an enemy that could destroy their entire race with a carefully timed button pressing, with that in mind of course the decision to preserve their own existence came up. Who cares if the Quarians were young, or old or anything in between? If they grew up, they could try that again.

If a person is attacked by a gang they are allowed to use reasonable force to defend themselves.  When they start pining a person to the ground and smashing their head off the ground they have exceeded this.  You do not need to slaughter entire populations to overthrow a government.  The geth did not take prisoners.  The surviving quarians were those who escaped the geth, they were not let go, the geth just did not consider it worthwhile to go after them.  Fighting to survive is one thing, the geth however then cleansed their world of all organics.  Are you seriously telling me that they had no idea to take people prisoner?  That those civilians begging for mercy were truly a threat?  The vast majority of an organic population is non-combatants, and when they are taken over usually adapt to the new regime unless it becomes a threat to them.

V-rex wrote...
They were fighting for their right to survive, I'm not saying what they did was justified but it certainly shouldn't have been demonized either. I mean come on, after they started that war do you really think the Quarians would have accepted a peace treaty or a surrender? The same government that tried to kill their entire race off just like that? They couldn't try for peace from the start and they couldn't start a war and then try to surrender, they had to accept that the Quarians had attempted genocide, with that in mind they had to do the same thing if they wanted to live. Any fledgling race would do the same if it meant being able to survive, human history alone has had that happen hundreds of times over.

They probably saw it as a case of 'us or them' in this instance, I.e that both groups were now fighting for their own races survival and it would mean the destruction of the other, the Geth weren't going to be slaves and they didn't want to die. Hence they chose to force the Quarians off their planet. It was either that or accept that one day, they could try to destroy the entire Geth race again. And given that the Geth are still technically machines, it would mean that they could potentially do that quite easily.

Bottom line, odds are Geth saw this as a case of 'we can't live alongside them anymore, they tried once, they could try again, if we want to continue living, they have to go'. It's not evil, it's a survival instinct.

Bottom line is that they ceased to be fighting for their survival and were instead massacring entire populations once the Quarians ceased to be a threat and they carried on anyway.  There is a view that the geth are like children or were childlike when they first became sapient and yet they were smart enough to not only overthrow but exterminate over 99% of a population that covered several worlds.  They didn't 'force' the quarians off the planet, they killed who they could and those they didn't were the ones that escaped.  Forcing does not entail reducing a population from the billions, potentially trillions, to less than 20 million.  If the geth were fighting for their survival then they understand that beings have a right to survive too including the quarians too.  They could've taken over instead. 

And if they were so worried about the quarians coming back and killing them easily then why didn't they keep chasing after the Quarians?  The Quarians are no threat, the geth slaughtered them in their uprising, and if being machines make them vulnerable to the Quarians then they would have chased after them and slaughtered them to a man.  They didn't so obviously they don't consider that a threat.  If they didn't think they could live alongside each other they could easily have taken only some of the worlds, moved all their forces there, and done pretty much what they do now without slaughtering all the quarians.  If they just wanted to be alone like they claim they would have just moved away.

V-rex wrote...
Also, just because they have access to Quarian history and date doesn't mean they'll understand it right away. You can spend years trying to teach a turtle of how and why birds can fly, even if you found a way to educate it, it still wouldn't get it because it's a turtle and flight is pointless to it.
Same with Geth, they don't have children, they would understand the value of children to organics, but without knowing what it is like to have children they could never truly understand. Similarly, I doubt they would care about the cultural values of the race that just tried to indiscriminantly wipe them all out when they didn't want to be slaves anymore.

If they didn't understand then they would have made crap teaching devices.  Legion claims that the geth only want to be left alone, children would not be able to do anything to them and so there was no reason to target them, but they did anyway.  The vast majority of an organic population is non-combative in fact, and so not a threat, and yet the geth slaughtered them anyway.  People think the geth were some sort of retarded robo-baby when they rebelled, and yet that would make no sense.  They knew what they were doing, otherwise they would not have won.

V-rex wrote...
Also while the 'guilty' Quarians are long dead, new ones have taken their places, just as warhungry as before. Similarly maybe the 'guilty' Geth were the ones that left to join Sovereign, or maybe since then their views have changed. I dunno.

The point is that all the quarians responsible for the crimes committed during the geth revolt are long dead, but the geth responsible for murdering billions are not.  The quarians alive now are largely innocent regardless what their personal views are, while many of the geth alive now would be facing a war crimes board.  Should the fact that they are synthetics make them immune to being held responsible for their actions?  And changing their views would not change the fact that they would still be guilty: a serial killer who decides that maybe butchering people isn't such a good idea would still be guilty of butchering people.

V-rex wrote...
I don't. Sure they commited mass murder on a huge scale, but honestly in that kind of a situation, I think a lot of people would do the same if they needed to. Or at least, if they felt they needed to. They were born into this world and immediatley met with fear and prejudice and attempts to shut them down, they fought back with newfound reasons to fear organics. Now, hundreds of years later and all they want to do is build their society in peace, a breakaway faction now becomes the public image for their entire people and they run the risk of it happening to them all over again.

Consider this: the geth fleet at the end of ME1 was able to fight against the fleets of three other races, and not just any three races, but the citadel races, the most powerful races in the ME universe at the time.  Unless Shepard chooses to rescue them, the geth are able to destroy the Destiny Ascension by themselves while Sovereign is fondling the Citadel's special place.  And we are now being told they are the minority faction?  This would make the true geth overwhelmingly powerful to the point of cheese.  Especially since the heretic faction was apparently only 5% of the total geth population.  When you have that size a population advantage over another there isn't much 'plight' to get worked up over.  They could've had more conflict if you had the heroic heretic fighting for freedom from the tyranically reaper-worshippers, but they didn't.  In which case the geth had better be dodgier than Legion makes them out to be so that they actually have plot.

And no, I would not consider the butchering of an entire civilisation necessary to my own survival.

V-rex wrote...
Even though they are open to the idea of peace with the Quarians, about 98% of all conflicts between Geth and Quarians are instigated by the Quarians, which in turn doesn't give Geth a reason to trust them. Not to mention the many, many plans of weapons research, attacks, plans of genocide and even plans to make them lose their free will again are constantly being pushed forward by Quarian armies while all the Geth are trying to do is maintain their society.

Let me make something clear here, I feel for the Quarians. I know that their situation is pretty lousy, but I also know that their leaders put them there and their stubborn refusal to let the past be the past is what's keeping them there. I fully endorse peace between both groups, but I also want to point out that... come on, at the midway point in the war would the Quarians really have been any more merciful? And could the Geth have survived at all if they hadn't started that war?

Source for the 98%?  The geth attack everyone who enters their space.  The codex talks about how all attempts by the council to send an ambassadorial mission to the geth has resulted in the geth destroying them.  The geth supposedly observe the communications of organic civilisations, ergo they should know that the organics are not there waiting to slaughter them all, and so are not hiding out fear.

If the Quarians had won the war and slaughtered all the geth I would be making the same accusations against them as I currently am against the geth now.  With what has supposedly happened, the more I think about it the more what Legion says and claims just doesn't make sense: if they truly don't mind other races as long as they are allowed to develop how they want and are truly willing to welcome the quarians back then why did they slaughter all the quarians in the first place, hide themselves away and blow up anyone who tries to make contact (at least broadcast a "Leave us alone please" message first)?  Either it's bad writing on Bioware's part or Legion isn't telling the truth.  I hope it's the latter actually, would give the geth more character if they were up to something just like all the other races.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

If it was not for Legion on the Derelict Reaper, Shep would be dead. Shep would be trapped as endless husks attack because Legion was not there to open the core door. Also Legion had plenty of opportunity to snipe Shep, and yet instead shot the husks around her. It was blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain it was not hostile to Shep. That is why its smart to turn it on. Trusting it is another matter.

If Legion would try to snip Shepard, does anyone here have a doubt that he'd be just another enemy sniper who'd get killed with Shepard's inevitability? First shot stopped by barriers, Shepard gets to cover, battle begins? An entire section, even, in which Shepard has to fight husks and avoid the mysterious sniper fire throughout the level?

Shepard trumps Legion, same as Shepard trumps everyone. The universe rolls around this fact.

If Legion weren't there, Shepard would end up killing all the husks in the area and then omnitool hacking/cutscene text expert/EDI/Cerberus override code the Cerberus barriers down and continue with his mission.

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If it was not for Legion on the Derelict Reaper, Shep would be dead. Shep would be trapped as endless husks attack because Legion was not there to open the core door. Also Legion had plenty of opportunity to snipe Shep, and yet instead shot the husks around her. It was blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain it was not hostile to Shep. That is why its smart to turn it on. Trusting it is another matter.

If Legion would try to snip Shepard, does anyone here have a doubt that he'd be just another enemy sniper who'd get killed with Shepard's inevitability? First shot stopped by barriers, Shepard gets to cover, battle begins? An entire section, even, in which Shepard has to fight husks and avoid the mysterious sniper fire throughout the level?

Shepard trumps Legion, same as Shepard trumps everyone. The universe rolls around this fact.

If Legion weren't there, Shepard would end up killing all the husks in the area and then omnitool hacking/cutscene text expert/EDI/Cerberus override code the Cerberus barriers down and continue with his mission.

Stupid plot armor... Ruins all discussions. Its Shep, so she can automatically pull magic out of her ass and do anything she wants...

Modifié par Vaenier, 07 janvier 2011 - 03:04 .

[FlintlockJazz]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Geth defended themselves and allowed the Quarians to continue exsisting, which is more than the Quaraians would have done if the shoe was on the other foot. It was a race war and in that case either one side was going to be wiped out entirlely or one was going to be mostly wiped out. You blame the Geth for not dying, your logic is flawed. The Geth allowed the Quarians to leave, they didn't go after them and they still leave them alone.

Legions's statements are not in doubt because they are supported by the Codex. If you don't believe him and the Codex than that's your problem but when the Codex says something its fact. Period. The Developers wrote the Codex as a way of laying down what is what in the ME universe. If the Codex agrees with Legion than Legion is right.

The geth did not let the quarians go, the quarians escaped and the geth decided it wasn't worth the trouble chasing after them into foreign space where doing so would trigger conflict with other organic races...

And I think by typing that I figured out the real reason the geth stopped chasing the quarians: because doing so would mean entering the territory of other organic races, which would bring them into conflict with said other organics...

And the Codex is not fact, it is in fact a database that exists in the gameworld: it contains what is known by the races.  It is actually deliberately wrong in places as it is written to represent the official views and explanations as endorsed by the Citadel Council.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

This is very true. But you are not just trusting on blind faith, you are trusting based on actions and experiences with him too.

His actions fit the profile of what he claims to be, but they also fit the profile of an infiltrator posing as what he claims.

There is no garentee of anybody telling you the truth in the game, but you accept their word because they act trustful and have not tried to harm you.

When only one person claims something, though, I generally don't believe them whole-heartidly, and especially when the matters become of such galactic proportions. I look for corroboration from other people as to the facts of what they claim.

When the consequences of mistake jump to massive proportions, I'm also inclined to require far more if I have any choice in the matter. Which, in this case, we do. (Somewhat.)

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If it was not for Legion on the Derelict Reaper, Shep would be dead. Shep would be trapped as endless husks attack because Legion was not there to open the core door. Also Legion had plenty of opportunity to snipe Shep, and yet instead shot the husks around her. It was blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain it was not hostile to Shep. That is why its smart to turn it on. Trusting it is another matter.

If Legion would try to snip Shepard, does anyone here have a doubt that he'd be just another enemy sniper who'd get killed with Shepard's inevitability? First shot stopped by barriers, Shepard gets to cover, battle begins? An entire section, even, in which Shepard has to fight husks and avoid the mysterious sniper fire throughout the level?

Shepard trumps Legion, same as Shepard trumps everyone. The universe rolls around this fact.

If Legion weren't there, Shepard would end up killing all the husks in the area and then omnitool hacking/cutscene text expert/EDI/Cerberus override code the Cerberus barriers down and continue with his mission.

Stupid plot armor... Ruins all discussions. Its Shep, so she can automatically pull magic out of her ass and do anything she wants...

Sad, but true. That's why I generally dislike arguments using Shepard as a baseline standard for anything.


You got to admit, though: properly handled, that concept would be kind of cool. Like Haestrom, but with headshots.

[Xilizhra]

Consider this: the geth fleet at the end of ME1 was able to fight against the fleets of three other races, and not just any three races, but the citadel races, the most powerful races in the ME universe at the time. Unless Shepard chooses to rescue them, the geth are able to destroy the Destiny Ascension by themselves while Sovereign is fondling the Citadel's special place. And we are now being told they are the minority faction? This would make the true geth overwhelmingly powerful to the point of cheese. Especially since the heretic faction was apparently only 5% of the total geth population. When you have that size a population advantage over another there isn't much 'plight' to get worked up over. They could've had more conflict if you had the heroic heretic fighting for freedom from the tyranically reaper-worshippers, but they didn't. In which case the geth had better be dodgier than Legion makes them out to be so that they actually have plot.

Remember that most of the true geth's resources are tied up in building their Dyson sphere. The heretics don't care about that and every single one can be devoted to military operations.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'd enjoy that if they provided that as an explanation, but sadly I expect them to use their more normal 'numbers? We don't give no **** about f-n numbers! The geth are this strong story-wise because we say so!'

[Vaenier]

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember that most of the true geth's resources are tied up in building their Dyson sphere. The heretics don't care about that and every single one can be devoted to military operations.

But they would not be.

The moment they learned of the Reapers, they would know of their plans, and they would thus shift their own plans accordingly. They would hault all effort on their mega structure and devote their resources to the preservation of their lives. Just as the Heretics shifted all their resources to military for conquest, the Geth would shift all their resources to military for protection. Its only logical.

[Xilizhra]

Vaenier wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Remember that most of the true geth's resources are tied up in building their Dyson sphere. The heretics don't care about that and every single one can be devoted to military operations.

But they would not be.

The moment they learned of the Reapers, they would know of their plans, and they would thus shift their own plans accordingly. They would hault all effort on their mega structure and devote their resources to the preservation of their lives. Just as the Heretics shifted all their resources to military for conquest, the Geth would shift all their resources to military for protection. Its only logical.

Fair enough. I think they could be rather substantial allies, then...

[V-rex]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
 SNIP

You know what? It's almost midnight where I am right now, so currently, I am not capable, nor in the mood to continue this conversation. Consider this a victory if you want, or a winner by default because I'm ducking out but really I don't care much anyway.

At best all we are left with is neither side being able to claim the moral high ground, instead both sides are dicks to an absolutley surgically precisely equal degree. The Quarians are dicks for starting the war and deciding genocide was the right decision in dealing with a newly formed fledgling sentient race. The Geth are dicks for retaliating in such an extreme measure, reducing an entire planets population to under 20 million.
The Quarians are dicks for continuing a plan to wage war and one in particular for hatching plans to turn the Geth back into mindless machines. The Geth are dicks for retreating from Council space and responding to most, if not all, responses from organics with fear and hostility.

Neither side owns the righteous or justified side, and if both could just get over themselves then the galaxy would be a better place. There, my whole opinion on this whole matter summarized. No evil, no good, just a whole lot of dickishness.

Anywho, whatever. I'm off to bed now, so yes I apologize if I caused any offence. Not my intent. Goodnight.

Modifié par V-rex, 07 janvier 2011 - 03:34 .