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[Flamin Jesus]

Legion-001 wrote...

But NEVER once in the story do you EVER get to be the one to instigate evil, never once do you get to be the master of evil(being corrupted by a demon and becoming a leader of the blight) as opposed to some foolish adventurer who gets a 'somewhat' evil choice.

But your example of becoming corrupted would still only be a reaction to circumstances (there has -at the very least- to be an opportunity to get yourself corrupted).
Maybe what you're asking for is more of a rephrasing of some actions ("I searched for a demon, found one inhabiting the child and made a deal" -which was, by the way, what I did more or less, I saw this brat more as an opportunity to go through with something I had wanted to do all along, though again more out of selfishness than evil- as opposed to "I tried to help that kid, found a demon in there who offered me something, I took it") than a real change, but leading the Blight into battle (apart from the fact that this is simply not possible due to the very nature of a Blight) would require them to write an entire second storyline just for that one option, a much more extensive change than for example KOTOR, where every planet more or less had a good/evil switch at the end with little consequence for other planets, here they'd have to design the entire game twice to give you that possibility.

[Ellzedd]

To be fair, if you opted to romance a socially retarded swamp girl who's only human contact was an abomination so evil that other human's told kids horror stories of her exploits just to hush them up, then you got what you deserved!

[Legion-001]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Legion-001 wrote...

But NEVER once in the story do you EVER get to be the one to instigate evil, never once do you get to be the master of evil(being corrupted by a demon and becoming a leader of the blight) as opposed to some foolish adventurer who gets a 'somewhat' evil choice.

But your example of becoming corrupted would still only be a reaction to circumstances (there has -at the very least- to be an opportunity to get yourself corrupted).
Maybe what you're asking for is more of a rephrasing of some actions ("I searched for a demon, found one inhabiting the child and made a deal" -which was, by the way, what I did more or less, I saw this brat more as an opportunity to go through with something I had wanted to do all along, though again more out of selfishness than evil- as opposed to "I tried to help that kid, found a demon in there who offered me something, I took it") than a real change, but leading the Blight into battle (apart from the fact that this is simply not possible due to the very nature of a Blight) would require them to write an entire second storyline just for that one option, a much more extensive change than for example KOTOR, where every planet more or less had a good/evil switch at the end with little consequence for other planets, here they'd have to design the entire game twice to give you that possibility.

Evil would be ("I summoned a demon and unleashed it upon a child to corrupt the kingdom to set up the circumstances necessary for me to seem like the hero, so that the Arl would aid me when I needed it"), I would just like to at least be given the capability to engage in truly despicably evil acts, flemeth being an excellent example (using her children to extend her own life).
They could easily make it so that you could choose to do something evil early in the game for a reward much later.

Modifié par Legion-001, 13 novembre 2009 - 03:29 .

[Flamin Jesus]

Hehe, I'm afraid before we get computer games that allow such freedom of choice, we really need to invest into world-simulation and AI development, not that I wouldn't enjoy a game that would allow me to be a magnificent scheming ****.



But for now, I guess you're stuck with P&P RPG's, I remember doing something along the lines you suggest (though somewhat more convoluted, I loved my utterly insane plan to become prince, chantry master and bishop at the same time dearly) in a Vampire: The Masquerade group I used to play in...



Until the other players had an "epiphany" (*cough* player knowledge *cough cough*) and decided to strap bombs to some ghouls and throw them out of a helicopter at my base of operations. Don't ask me why they felt the need to waste perfectly fine ghouls just to blow me up. O_o

[Legion-001]

One of the biggest problems with the so-called 'open world' games is that the world is built around the player, as opposed to what it should be building the world first(with people leading their lives, other bands of adventurers, ETC) and then putting the player in it.

[Tankenminnet]

They are creating realistic characters with their own agendas, not romantic interests that always suits you. Heh.

[Flamin Jesus]

Well, I agree, but simulating (Which you basically have to do to create a world that truly feels alive and where not everything is pre-determined regardless of the player actions) is much harder than just animating (Which is sort of what rigid storytelling is, in a way), it took a load of time to get physics simulations where they are today, social simulations are mostly still far from really good or competent, especially if they have to work on the level of actual people as opposed to masses of people, and a storytelling-AI that not only understands cause and effect but is also able to form ideas and communicate with a human actor in any meaningful way... Now that's something nobody even knows IF it's really possible to do, nevermind HOW.

[Walina]

In my opinion, I think it will have cost nothing for dev to let us the choice about romance, I mean : is it really necessary to end this way ?

[Flamin Jesus]

Walina wrote...

In my opinion, I think it will have cost nothing for dev to let us the choice about romance, I mean : is it really necessary to end this way ?

See it this way: Would it be good storytelling to have the character do a 180 degree personality turn just so we can have a happy(er) end? I admit I could have done with a happily ever after with my crazy witch, but it would feel forced.

Not to mention that it's almost guaranteed to be one of the story hooks of DA2 or some DLC, or both.

[Vilegrim]

Walina wrote...

In my opinion, I think it will have cost nothing for dev to let us the choice about romance, I mean : is it really necessary to end this way ?

yes, hope finding her again in DA 2 is possible however

[Legion-001]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Well, I agree, but simulating (Which you basically have to do to create a world that truly feels alive and where not everything is pre-determined regardless of the player actions) is much harder than just animating (Which is sort of what rigid storytelling is, in a way), it took a load of time to get physics simulations where they are today, social simulations are mostly still far from really good or competent, especially if they have to work on the level of actual people as opposed to masses of people, and a storytelling-AI that not only understands cause and effect but is also able to form ideas and communicate with a human actor in any meaningful way... Now that's something nobody even knows IF it's really possible to do, nevermind HOW.

Surely it wouldn't have broken the game to add a few evil choices early in the game that can allow for a great reward much later.

[Flamin Jesus]

Probably not, but which evil choices? I felt that there were some rather selfish options that had big payouts (2 of the most powerful specializations, for example, some rather nice coin at a few points in the game etc), for me, much more would have felt forced, I felt things were very much in the balance, a realistic balance at least, as opposed to the whole "I'm evil because I'm evil"/"I'm good because I'm good"-balance of, say, KOTOR. Choices that would have needed expanding upon during the game (For example, surely becoming a Lieutenant of the darkspawn army would have some rather extreme consequences throughout the entire game) would have either needed a lot of work or (without the work) felt flat and pointless, choices that would feel like being there just for the sake of giving you an option to be an arse would have felt forced...

At some point you have to close the lid, sure, I would have liked more conversation options, especially some middle of the road options in some cases (Anvil anyone? Was I the ONLY one who thought of a workable compromise I couldn't suggest thanks to the game?), especially since some choices really felt a little like they forced a moral conflict by having you select the lesser (or greater) of two evils even though there was an obvious, better, yet somehow impossible other option you immediately thought of.

Others might feel that there weren't enough abilities, or that heh, the romances weren't satisfactory, or a million other things, and I'd love to see all those wishes fullfilled, but at the end of the day, if you feel that they haven't struck a decent balance, and if I feel that they have, we simply have a different opinion.

[Maria Caliban]

Walina wrote...

In my opinion, I think it will have cost nothing for dev to let us the choice about romance, I mean : is it really necessary to end this way ?

Yes.

[Legion-001]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Probably not, but which evil choices? I felt that there were some rather selfish options that had big payouts (2 of the most powerful specializations, for example, some rather nice coin at a few points in the game etc), for me, much more would have felt forced, I felt things were very much in the balance, a realistic balance at least, as opposed to the whole "I'm evil because I'm evil"/"I'm good because I'm good"-balance of, say, KOTOR. Choices that would have needed expanding upon during the game (For example, surely becoming a Lieutenant of the darkspawn army would have some rather extreme consequences throughout the entire game) would have either needed a lot of work or (without the work) felt flat and pointless, choices that would feel like being there just for the sake of giving you an option to be an arse would have felt forced...
At some point you have to close the lid, sure, I would have liked more conversation options, especially some middle of the road options in some cases (Anvil anyone? Was I the ONLY one who thought of a workable compromise I couldn't suggest thanks to the game?), especially since some choices really felt a little like they forced a moral conflict by having you select the lesser (or greater) of two evils even though there was an obvious, better, yet somehow impossible other option you immediately thought of.
Others might feel that there weren't enough abilities, or that heh, the romances weren't satisfactory, or a million other things, and I'd love to see all those wishes fullfilled, but at the end of the day, if you feel that they haven't struck a decent balance, and if I feel that they have, we simply have a different opinion.

*Sigh* like the first Overlord game (and to some extent the second) this game just doesn't do evil.

[Taleroth]

How can people call it bittersweet? There's absolutely nothing sweet about it, it's just bitter.



Bittersweet would be if Morrigan promised to see the PC again, someday eventually. Bittersweet would be if they both died and met again in the Fade. Bittersweet would be anything which ends relatively happily, but in a unideal way. There's nothing happy to this ending, it's just senseless "good bye, don't try to find me."

[Flamin Jesus]

Yeah, in Overlord it kinda sucked. It was supposed to be over-the-top, completely whacko evil! Not cutesy fluffy cutevil!

Also, Overlord just doesn't do "interesting gameplay", which I found to be even more of a downer. -.-

[Maria Caliban]

Legion-001 wrote...

Another good idea would be if the PC could willingly allow demonic possession and gains the ability to use some very evil and destructive magics (like corrupting or possessing others).

Willingly allowing demonic possession would lead to either your entire personality being consumed, or ping-ponging between bouts of powerlessness where you were yourself and times when the demon was in full-control.

Legion-001 wrote...
...never once do you get to be the master of evil(being corrupted by a demon and becoming a leader of the blight)..

You just tap the Esc key whenever an NPC talks, don’t you? Being corrupted by a demon would not in any way lead to you becoming the leader of the blight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Too much freedom = no story telling.

Dragon Age balances freedom and excellent story telling well. No need to change that.

[Dennis Carpenter]

Ok here is my viewpoint and I havent finished the game yet so bear with me if something I think cant possibly happen (from the mind of a long time DM) The whole reason for getting pregnant is to become immortal!!!!!!! remember she has all of Flemeths books and knows how she stayed alive for so long, if Morrigan can duplicate the process with a child that is somehow part God as she puts it ( or something to that effect) Just how powerful can she become. Also If you killed Flemeth than there is really no one to stop her..........Of course this is all speculation in the demented mind of a long time DM. What do you all think?

[Vilegrim]

Taleroth wrote...

How can people call it bittersweet? There's absolutely nothing sweet about it, it's just bitter.

Bittersweet would be if Morrigan promised to see the PC again, someday eventually. Bittersweet would be if they both died and met again in the Fade. Bittersweet would be anything which ends relatively happily, but in a unideal way. There's nothing happy to this ending, it's just senseless "good bye, don't try to find me."

the follow up, she has to do what she does, she regets it, she thinks of you, perfect star crossed lovers., and the possiblity of finding her is left open ofc, and your child.

Modifié par Vilegrim, 13 novembre 2009 - 04:33 .

[Flamin Jesus]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Legion-001 wrote...

Another good idea would be if the PC could willingly allow demonic possession and gains the ability to use some very evil and destructive magics (like corrupting or possessing others).

Willingly allowing demonic possession would lead to either your entire personality being consumed, or ping-ponging between bouts of powerlessness where you were yourself and times when the demon was in full-control.

In all fairness though, both Uldred and Flemmeth seemed to be able to find a balance between full-on-demon mode and no-demon-at-all mode, though it stands to reason that their demons were just a little cleverer and simply managed to come across as somewhat human(e) for an extended amount of time.

I wonder if it's possible to compell a more benevolent spirit of the fade to inhabit a mortal body, I could think of some uses for that ability...

[Taleroth]

Dennis Carpenter wrote...

Ok here is my viewpoint and I havent finished the game yet so bear with me if something I think cant possibly happen (from the mind of a long time DM) The whole reason for getting pregnant is to become immortal!!!!!!! remember she has all of Flemeths books and knows how she stayed alive for so long, if Morrigan can duplicate the process with a child that is somehow part God as she puts it ( or something to that effect) Just how powerful can she become. Also If you killed Flemeth than there is really no one to stop her..........Of course this is all speculation in the demented mind of a long time DM. What do you all think?

I think that your theory puts forth an idea that is basically what kills a Grey Warden, but with reversed roles.  Old God tries to inhabit body with a human soul, kills both souls.
I would think another soul trying to inhabit a body with an Old God soul would end with similar effect.

[Flamin Jesus]

Dennis Carpenter wrote...

Ok here is my viewpoint and I havent finished the game yet so bear with me if something I think cant possibly happen (from the mind of a long time DM) The whole reason for getting pregnant is to become immortal!!!!!!! remember she has all of Flemeths books and knows how she stayed alive for so long, if Morrigan can duplicate the process with a child that is somehow part God as she puts it ( or something to that effect) Just how powerful can she become. Also If you killed Flemeth than there is really no one to stop her..........Of course this is all speculation in the demented mind of a long time DM. What do you all think?

Well, she plans to use that power for SOMETHING, but as it stands the whole body-snatching thing (IF it actually happens) is basically a soul-transplant, what she proposes would more or less put a god's soul into a mortal body, and while it will probably change the body as well, destroying the soul and taking that body wouldn't grant her the full power of that god, not to mention that Flemeth even had to (planned to) soften up and erode Morrigan's willpower for the ordeal, which suggests that the invader actually has to 'win' and drive the original inhabitant of the body out, which might be a tad difficult to achieve against one of the 7 most powerful souls ever to exist.

[Dennis Carpenter]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Dennis Carpenter wrote...

Ok here is my viewpoint and I havent finished the game yet so bear with me if something I think cant possibly happen (from the mind of a long time DM) The whole reason for getting pregnant is to become immortal!!!!!!! remember she has all of Flemeths books and knows how she stayed alive for so long, if Morrigan can duplicate the process with a child that is somehow part God as she puts it ( or something to that effect) Just how powerful can she become. Also If you killed Flemeth than there is really no one to stop her..........Of course this is all speculation in the demented mind of a long time DM. What do you all think?

Well, she plans to use that power for SOMETHING, but as it stands the whole body-snatching thing (IF it actually happens) is basically a soul-transplant, what she proposes would more or less put a god's soul into a mortal body, and while it will probably change the body as well, destroying the soul and taking that body wouldn't grant her the full power of that god, not to mention that Flemeth even had to (planned to) soften up and erode Morrigan's willpower for the ordeal, which suggests that the invader actually has to 'win' and drive the original inhabitant of the body out, which might be a tad difficult to achieve against one of the 7 most powerful souls ever to exist.

Just remember how manipulating she is and to have an unprotected naive mind at her disposal along with the trust a child has for its mother  Kind of evens the field I think.

[Maria Caliban]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

In all fairness though, both Uldred and Flemmeth seemed to be able to find a balance between full-on-demon mode and no-demon-at-all mode, though it stands to reason that their demons were just a little cleverer and simply managed to come across as somewhat human(e) for an extended amount of time.

Yeah. I don't think Uldred was Uldred anymore. I think he was just a pride demon using the memories and face of Uldred to let more demons enter the mortal realm.

I'm not sure what Flemeth is or was.

I wonder if it's possible to compell a more benevolent spirit of the fade to inhabit a mortal body, I could think of some uses for that ability...

It's possible. We see that in the game.