8324 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

wall of text inc.

I don't think they could have done it without deviating from planned future story too much.

I still don't think its out of character more so for Ash then for Kaidan, but even non renegaded you can catch him being snippy (not to mention he really is pretty stable in his loyalties and its one thing to sorta mutiny WITH the support of captain Anderson I might add and quite another to trust a word of someone you thought you knew but barely recognize anymore)

should there have been a discussion? yes. did either of them get a chance to start aforementioned discussion? Shepard doesn't get an option of "just give me a few minutes to explain, to give you some facts you may not know" - Shepard asks them to just take it on faith.

plus, I'm sorry but Cerberus = bad. they might be working towards destruction of the reapers but they are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. TIM has a pretty damn strong instinct for self preservation and a stronger lust for power. Reapers winning means at best Tim hiding out somewhere for a few decades until they go away and then just kinda living out his last days with whatever people he managed to hide with him, no power no reaches, no finer things in life. His methods are beyond questionable, he's ruthless, unprincipled, and his declarations that he didn't know about SO many of his projects going rogue in one breath while Miranda tells you on another breath that he prefers to supervise things personally and therefore doesn't run too many projects at the same time. Crock ...of...bull. Virmire survivor might not know some of the details, but Shep sure does. and they both remember shutting down all those Cerberus organizations in ME1 having just played through Feros on my renegade femshep (btw its excruciating for me to be mean to Kaidan :/) I was reminded of yet another lets experiment on humans project that Cerberus had their fingers in, oh yeah, exogeni and cerberus were working together there.

It would have been better if VS (especially Kaidan as he's usually the more thoughtful one) had a chance to ask: "what possibly could have been a good enough reason to work with Cerberus instead of trying to work with alliance, Anderson, why is it that even while reinstated Shep doesn't have actual council support, why were they both stonewalled, why the hell is Shepard just going along with Cerberus, but I chalk it up to shock of seeing someone you thought dead, seemingly allied with organization that you were told was attacking the colony (and once again - collectors kidnapping humans - could easily be working with Cerberus on that one, not the first time cerberus experimented on humans, not to mention, in hindsight we know that cerberus really was involved in kidnapping of horizon, so VS wasn't off base there).

I doubt we'd ever agree on a single version of events, even after we find out more about the background. The writing of that scene could have been better, but it wasn't THAT terrible.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 février 2011 - 05:56 .

[keekee53]

Ryzaki wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...

Seriously, if you ever get resurrected after being dead for two years, get ready to be insulted if you run into any loved ones who you hadn't managed to contact yet. Especially if you plan on telling them you work for a terrorist organisation now.

They might not believe you, or think you are all that sane. It could get.. insulting.



But, jokes aside, are you really surprised by the reaction on Horizon?

If my family saw first hand random aliens were dragging people off and I stopped them I'd think them a goddamn idiot for believing rumors that originated with saying that I was helping with the kidnapping!

Huh. Who would think that if one rumor was completely off base others might be too. Or even those other rumors had been morphed beyond all recognition? I mean nah it's not like Kaidan is used to BS being spread as truth. Particularly by the alliance. Nope. He totally is ignorant to things like that.

I was very surprised by how much of a blindsided fool Kaidan was. Especially when he showed himself to be more level headed in ME1. If nothing else I expected him to hear Shepard out instead of going on about Cerberus controlling Shepard. Especially when Shepard can show up with two aliens that worked with Kaidan in ME1. Aliens. Not Cerberus operatives. Aliens that worked with him before that he knows aren't with Cerberus. Or hell even two aliens that Kaidan has never seen before. Huh. He doesn't stop to go: "Why would aliens be willing to work with Cerberus?" Nope. Too much thinking involved right there.

He didn't even have the "I wubbed you." excuse with a non romantic Shepard. He wasn't any closer to Shepard than a normal subordinate and commander. Yet he flips completely out? He's not Shepard's family. Shepard is not part of him. Kaidan is not Shepard's loved one all the time. Hell Kaidan might not even be Shep's friend. They could've talked to each other a grand total of four times. And all of those times were mission orientated.

My family members aren't the most sane around to begin with and they aren't  under a command chain. They also aren't involved in the military.

They also aren't...you know not my family.

About Horizon...

It has taken me a long time to get over that conversation with Kaidan.  Honestly, I would not change a thing about it.  From a romantic point of view, I believe Kaidan is truly hurt and lashes out.  I do not even believe working for Cerberus is the true issue.  He is using Cerberus as an excuse and looking for a reason as to why Shepard did not get in touch with him, especially for a mission of this importance.
I believe the above holds true from a Male Shep point of view.  I mean you saved his life on virmire, not only saved his life but let someone else die instead of him.  Even if they are not in a romantic relationship, you have to believe Kaidan considers MShep family or a best friend at the very least.  Kaidan would expect Shepard to recruit him and seeing Garrus and Tali probably hurt him even more.  I mean you hook up with Cerberus, recruit Tali and Garrus and not him.  He is probably questioning his importance to Shepard.  Of course that is not the whole story, but Kaidan does not know that.

Anyways, these are my speculations and they help me with the Horizon chat.


After Horizon...

Now for the rest of the game, I am a little upset.  I am stuck going on all these missions so my crew can take care of unfinished business, while my shep seems to have the most baggage after Horizon.  So there she is staring at picture trying to push all of her feelings aside so everyone can survive the mission.  Guess that is what makes her extraordinary.
My renegade Shep was a train wreck, she broke up with Jacob, slept with Thane and Legion died during the SM.  I was going to go back and fix it but I think I will leave her the way she turned out, a mess.  Hopefully, Kaidan will forgive her.

[sagefic]

meonlyred wrote...

What makes me say the whole Horizon thing was out of character is mainly because both Ash and Kaidan's dialogue is exactly the same. They could have had the same out come but with slightly different dialogue that would carter to the two very different characters. I mean their letters they send later are different why couldn't the conversations be?

this. i don't think it was OOC, but seriously, if you're going to require different animations (which they do. femshep gets the "girl" side of the hug, which ash does otherwise and kaidan the "dude" side) and require different VAs, and certain dialog IS different ("i'm no fan of aliens" is only an ash line) and different emails, then why not go an extra step and write different dialog instead of reusing such huge chunks of it?

again, horizon needed a delicate hand and a fine-tipped paintbrush, got a 5-gallon bucket overturned on its side.

strangely though, and thanks in large part to head-canoning and fanfiction, i like it now, 

edit: @ keekee - totally with you. +1

Modifié par sagequeen, 09 février 2011 - 05:58 .

[Ryzaki]

keekee53 wrote...
About Horizon...

It has taken me a long time to get over that conversation with Kaidan.  Honestly, I would not change a thing about it.  From a romantic point of view, I believe Kaidan is truly hurt and lashes out.  I do not even believe working for Cerberus is the true issue.  He is using Cerberus as an excuse and looking for a reason as to why Shepard did not get in touch with him, especially for a mission of this importance.
I believe the above holds true from a Male Shep point of view.  I mean you saved his life on virmire, not only saved his life but let someone else die instead of him.  Even if they are not in a romantic relationship, you have to believe Kaidan considers MShep family or a best friend at the very least.  Kaidan would expect Shepard to recruit him and seeing Garrus and Tali probably hurt him even more.  I mean you hook up with Cerberus, recruit Tali and Garrus and not him.  He is probably questioning his importance to Shepard.  Of course that is not the whole story, but Kaidan does not know that.

Anyways, these are my speculations and they help me with the Horizon chat.

I can see how but there's nothing to suggest that Kaidan would consider Dude Shep family or friends. I saved him because the bomb had to go off. (You can even tell him that I believe.) The mission comes first? I believe Shep said. He has little dialogue with a male Shepard (very little. Getting him to talk to my male Shepard was like pulling teeth.)

He just had the fortune of being at the bomb. Other than that the two of them were little more than Commander and suborinate. And you can offer to let Kaidan come with you. His excuse is he doesn't trust Cerberus and he thinks Shep's not being reasonable by trusting them. You didn't let Ash die. There was a judgement call "Rescue Ash and get the Salarians/ Rescue Kaidan and protect the bomb" from a pragmatic standpoint option 2 is the way to go.

And Shep gave him the reason: "I was in a coma." the second Shep's out of the coma he/she's running around trying to find the Collectors.

And if Anderson could be bothered to send "dead" Shep an email and arranges a council meeting. Kaidan could at the least send an email as well.

Everyone else in the galaxy manages to get into contact with you.

Edit: I'm not saying your wrong. Just saying how it looks to my Shepard.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 février 2011 - 06:06 .

[jeweledleah]

Shep doesn't contact Kaidan - being stonewalled. by everyone, including Anderson. who btw, also is stonewalling Kaidan/Ashley, remember the people who are not exactly hanging around the Citadel, but are rather out there, trying to help the colonies and as such - are only exposed to wild rumors mostly.

think they didn't ask Anderson about those? I'm sure they did and I'm just as sure that Anderson gave them something like "not at liberty to say" at best. I'm not sure why they didn't try to send that e-mail, maybe they did and it was blocked at first (council meeting is in TIM's interests, meeting up with old crew, unless they can be useful is not) - TIM wasn't even aware about Garrus being Archangel and had to regroup and rework some plans to compensate for that)? its quite interesting how TIM very coincidentally sets up Horizon, isn't it.

random e-mails getting through could just be a ploy to create an illusion of unscreened e-mail account.  Tim needs Shepard to not rebel too much.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 février 2011 - 06:12 .

[Ryzaki]

jeweledleah wrote...

Shep doesn't contact Kaidan - being stonewalled. by everyone, including Anderson. who btw, also is stonewalling Kaidan/Ashley, remember the people who are not exactly hanging around the Citadel, but are rather out there, trying to help the colonies and as such - are only exposed to wild rumors mostly.

think they didn't ask Anderson about those? I'm sure they did and I'm just as sure that Anderson gave them something like "not at liberty to say" at best. I'm not sure why they didn't try to send that e-mail, maybe they did and it was blocked at first (council meeting is in TIM's interests, meeting up with old crew, unless they can be useful is not) - TIM wasn't even aware about Garrus being Archangel and had to regroup and rework some plans to compensate for that)? its quite interesting how TIM very coincidentally sets up Horizon, isn't it.

When is it said that Kaidan/Ash was being stonewalled into not send Shepard an email? 

Actually they weren't helping the colones from the alien attacks. They only went to Horizon because big bad Cerberus was going to kidnap a human colony...for some reason.

And had some new magical tech to disable a colony all at once and leave absolutely no evidence behind.

There are ways to get around interent blocks now a days. I doubt if Kaidan/Ash was really determined to get an email to Shepard they wouldn't have been able too.

And yet TIM tells you where Tali is, Tali who on several occasions vocalizes her hatred of Cerberus and makes no secret of it. TIM doesn't care who you work with as long as you get the job done. Hell getting Kaidan/Ash to work with you could've been seen as a plus in his eyes because they're valuable resources. TIM doesn't turn his nose up at a valuable asset. (Just look at the fact that he let Jack on his ship). If they can stop the Collectors and not get important information tied down in bureacacy and red tape, TIM doesn't mind working with them.

And if TIM hadn't set up Horizon by feeding on the Alliance's paranoia when it comes to Cerberus (because simply telling them it was aliens hadn't gotten them off their asses) another colony would've been hit and a lot more lives would've been lost to the Collectors.

I dislike TIM but the guy knows how to get things done. The only reason Shepard managed to stop the Collectors is due to him.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 février 2011 - 06:23 .

[Chaos715]

I think the biggest problem with Horizon is the fact that Bioware has given us way too much time to nitpick at it. They drop this huge bomb on us and then leave us hanging forever without a word, a dossier...anything. PLEASE...Bioware give us our resolve or at least some glimpse of hope where Kaidan is concerned.

[keekee53]

Ryzaki wrote...

keekee53 wrote...
About Horizon...

It has taken me a long time to get over that conversation with Kaidan.  Honestly, I would not change a thing about it.  From a romantic point of view, I believe Kaidan is truly hurt and lashes out.  I do not even believe working for Cerberus is the true issue.  He is using Cerberus as an excuse and looking for a reason as to why Shepard did not get in touch with him, especially for a mission of this importance.
I believe the above holds true from a Male Shep point of view.  I mean you saved his life on virmire, not only saved his life but let someone else die instead of him.  Even if they are not in a romantic relationship, you have to believe Kaidan considers MShep family or a best friend at the very least.  Kaidan would expect Shepard to recruit him and seeing Garrus and Tali probably hurt him even more.  I mean you hook up with Cerberus, recruit Tali and Garrus and not him.  He is probably questioning his importance to Shepard.  Of course that is not the whole story, but Kaidan does not know that.

Anyways, these are my speculations and they help me with the Horizon chat.

I can see how but there's nothing to suggest that Kaidan would consider Dude Shep family or friends. I saved him because the bomb had to go off. (You can even tell him that I believe.) The mission comes first? I believe Shep said. He has little dialogue with a male Shepard (very little. Getting him to talk to my male Shepard was like pulling teeth.)

He just had the fortune of being at the bomb. Other than that the two of them were little more than Commander and suborinate. And you can offer to let Kaidan come with you. His excuse is he doesn't trust Cerberus and he thinks Shep's not being reasonable by trusting them. You didn't let Ash die. There was a judgement call "Rescue Ash and get the Salarians/ Rescue Kaidan and protect the bomb" from a pragmatic standpoint option 2 is the way to go.

And Shep gave him the reason: "I was in a coma." the second Shep's out of the coma he/she's running around trying to find the Collectors.

And if Anderson could be bothered to send "dead" Shep an email and arranges a council meeting. Kaidan could at the least send an email as well.

Everyone else in the galaxy manages to get into contact with you.

Edit: I'm not saying your wrong. Just saying how it looks to my Shepard.

Even if you tell Kaidan the bomb had to go off, you still have to believe Kaidan still had a lot of gratitude, admiration and respect to the point where he probably did not believe MShep.  Horizon is probably where he starts to believe Mshep.  Kaidan realizes he may not mean anything to FemShep\\MShep.  At which point, your request to ask him to join is more out of convenience than Shep truly wanting him to be part of the team.  Romance FemShep even gets asked if Ilos meant anything to her.

The whole coma thing...
Well if I haven't seen a loved one in two years and he had a new ship, new crew and was fighting an alien race.  I would have to question that as well.  Who wakes up from a two year coma and does all that...LOL

[meonlyred]

TIM does a wonderful job manipulating Shepard. He runs the edge of helping her and betraying her. That is why I love and hate him all at the same time. I've said this before but I see it as TIM doesn't want Shepard with many if any of her old squad with her. Easier to get her to do what he wants what way.

He did not know Garrus was Archangel. But he says his presence will keep her "complacent"

Tali, I think he doesn't see her as a threat or at less sees her as a way to get into the Flotilla. He had already tired that once before in Ascension and I'm sure he hasn't forgotten that project.

Wrex, I doubt he sees him as much of a threat in influencing her either.

Liara he tells you she is work FOR the Shadow Broker. There is no way he believed that. And after LotSB he says in the report that their relationship should be watched closely, leading me to believe he is threaten by their loyalty to one another.

As for Kaidan, if Shepard and him are lovers/friends I'm sure he sees them having strong influence over each other. TIM does not want Shepard back with the Alliance. He wants her solely as his pet, his General, his icon. If she has any reason to leave Cerberus he wants it taken care of. Makes me wonder if he was trying to kill two birds with one stone on Horizon, literally. Lure the Collectors out and possible kill someone who might have influence on Shepard in one moment.

Modifié par meonlyred, 09 février 2011 - 06:37 .

[Ryzaki]

keekee53 wrote...

Even if you tell Kaidan the bomb had to go off, you still have to believe Kaidan still had a lot of gratitude, admiration and respect to the point where he probably did not believe MShep.  Horizon is probably where he starts to believe Mshep.  Kaidan realizes he may not mean anything to FemShep\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\MShep.  At which point, your request to ask him to join is more out of convenience than Shep truly wanting him to be part of the team.  Romance FemShep even gets asked if Ilos meant anything to her.

Yes because renedouche is awe inspiring. Constantly insulting, belittling, killing and being plain cruel would earn Kaidan's admiration. (Not saying your wrong but giving another point of view).

And the reaction to someone you idolize dying is much different than someone you actually know and love dying.

Also the whole "well Shep didn't ask me first." makes him seem like a child that doesn't realize there are far greater things at stake than his feelings. Which while human isn't admirable nor does it seem like something Kaidan would do.

The whole coma thing...
Well if I haven't seen a loved one in two years and he had a new ship, new crew and was fighting an alien race.  I would have to question that as well.  Who wakes up from a two year coma and does all that...LOL

Someone who was sponsered by said people trying to kill bug things.
As for the loved one. Shep doesn't have to be a loved one...but I've said that already.

@meonlyred

TIM does a wonderful job manipulating Shepard. He runs the edge of
helping her and betraying her. That is why I love and hate him all at
the same time. I've said this before but I see it as TIM doesn't want
Shepard with many if any of her old squad with her. Easier to get her to
do what he wants what way.

Actually the Council and the Alliance themselves do that themselves pretty well. The closest TIM comes to betraying Shep is luring him/her into the trap. And I understood why he did it. I wanted to punch him in the mouth but I understood that it was necessary.

He did not know Garrus was Archangel. But he says his presence will keep her "complacent"

I could've sworn it said comfortable. He wouldn't want Shepard complacent that results in Shep's natural ability declining.

Tali,
I think he doesn't see her as a threat or at less sees her as a way to
get into the Flotilla. He had already tired that once before in
Ascension and I'm sure he hasn't forgotten that project.

Right because Tali isn't going to be suspicious. Tali trusts no one there but Shepard. TIM also knows better than to risk instabiliy when the reapers are coming. (Thus why he expresses unease at the Quarians eagerness to wage war against the Geth.)

Wrex, I doubt he sees him as much of a threat in influencing her either.

Wrex has his hands full. And I'm pretty sure TIm knows Shep can think for him/her self. If he/she couldn't he/she wouldn't have made it so far.

Liara
he tells you she is work FOR the Shadow Broker. There is no way he
believed that. And after LotSB he says in the report that their
relationship should be watched closely, leading me to believe he is
threaten by their loyalty to one another.

This confused the hell out of me.

As for the relationship being watched closely I saw it as more of his own interests. Shep now has power over him. A lot of power over him. That's what's threatening.

As for Kaidan, if
Shepard and him are lovers/friends I'm sure he sees them having strong
influence over each other. TIM does not want Shepard back with the
Alliance. He wants her solely as his pet, his General, his icon. If she
has any reason to leave Cerberus he wants it taken care of. Makes me
wonder if he was trying to kill two birds with one stone on Horizon,
literally. Lure the Collectors out and possible kill someone who might
have influence on Shepard in one moment.

The alliance isn't doing anything to really help. They were stretched too thin from the losses at the Citadel battle (Anderson or TIM tells you this I believe). He may want Shep as an icon but he certainly doesn't treat Shep like a pet (and even if you are a pro-Cerberus Shep that's not happening.). Shep leaving the alliance with a group willing to help her with a group that thinks she's deluded would be a fool's errand. 

Though I don't doubt him not minding if the VS was captured. Nothing would encourage Shep to step his/her game up like the death of an ally.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 février 2011 - 06:48 .

[meonlyred]

Chaos715 wrote...

I think the biggest problem with Horizon is the fact that Bioware has given us way too much time to nitpick at it. They drop this huge bomb on us and then leave us hanging forever without a word, a dossier...anything. PLEASE...Bioware give us our resolve or at least some glimpse of hope where Kaidan is concerned.

^This, very very much this.
What other scene in Mass Effect 1 OR 2 have we talked about more?! Not the locker scene, not the Ilos scene, Virmire comes close but in the end we ALWAYS come back to Horizon.

Bioware you evil evil bastards.

[jeweledleah]

they were investigating disappearing colonies, period. they just have been told it was Cerberus kidnapping them. how many experiments, groundbreaking if unethical experiments have we seen Cerberus perform so far? plenty. its much easier to accept them developing technology to disable an entire colony (or borrow said technology) then it is to accept resurrection.

I'm fairly sure Ash/Kaidan says it on horizon when they mention rumors but no concrete information,
I can try and find if I have that save somewhere to replay the conversation, Wiki doesn't give the exact conversation text with all options (I'll see if I can also hit youtube later)

the mail thing is iffy as its heavily implied that one of the colonists got the address from VS, but then again - they might have sent something and never gotten a response, since it was deleted before getting to Shep.

TIM cares very much who works with Shepard. its not just about getting a job done. the crew is hand picked for the ship. the only people you recruit are from the dossiers TIM gives you and he's not happy when you end up with Garrus, activate Grunt and Legion instead of giving them to TIM. he actually doesn't know that Tali was on Freedom's progress, but I'm sure he heard reports from Miranda about the interaction and her reaction. you don't get to recruit Tali until much later, I'm assuming that has a lot to do with him reviewing this possibility and deciding that the benefits out weight the dangers.

you have an option of asking him about Ash/Kaidan when you first meet Tim. he dismisses them out of hand, tells you to forget about them. he very suspiciously asks you after Horizon if that relationship is now over. no, I don't think he sees Ash or Kai as an asset, he sees them as a danger to his control over Shepard and as such, they cannot be allowed to reconcile.

I wonder who was it that was paying for Jack to be held on that ship in a first place. Jack is a liability, she's a danger to Cerberus, but at the same time, if Shepard can control her (which in itself is a distraction to keep Shep constantly occupied, too busy to have too much time to think and plot) - it might be possible to salvage that particular situation.

TIM is getting the job done - for his own benefit. TIM doesn't care about the methods, because he wants results, he wants power. Maybe that attitude makes a lot more sense for a super renegade Shepard, but even Ashley never approaches these levels of ruthlessness (I actually had an amusing conversation with her when she was convincing ME that aliens are not that bad) TIM is not trying to save the world, sorry, his goals just happen to coincide with saving the world.

edited to add - this is what I get for beign a slow writer and a slower typist.  conversation moves on O_O

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 février 2011 - 06:48 .

[Shenzi]

meonlyred wrote...

TIM does a wonderful job manipulating Shepard. He runs the edge of helping her and betraying her. That is why I love and hate him all at the same time. I've said this before but I see it as TIM doesn't want Shepard with many if any of her old squad with her. Easier to get her to do what he wants what way.

He did not know Garrus was Archangel. But he says his presence will keep her "complacent"

Tali, I think he doesn't see her as a threat or at less sees her as a way to get into the Flotilla. He had already tired that once before in Ascension and I'm sure he hasn't forgotten that project.

Wrex, I doubt he sees him as much of a threat in influencing her either.

Liara he tells you she is work FOR the Shadow Broker. There is no way he believed that. And after LotSB he says in the report that their relationship should be watched closely, leading me to believe he is threaten by their loyalty to one another.

As for Kaidan, if Shepard and him are lovers/friends I'm sure he sees them having strong influence over each other. TIM does not want Shepard back with the Alliance. He wants her solely as his pet, his General, his icon. If she has any reason to leave Cerberus he wants it taken care of. Makes me wonder if he was trying to kill two birds with one stone on Horizon, literally. Lure the Collectors out and possible kill someone who might have influence on Shepard in one moment.

I agree with all of this, except for the part about loving TIM at times.

My favorite part of ME2 is blowing up the base, telling TIM off and keeping the SR2 as a parting gift.

Modifié par Shenzi, 09 février 2011 - 06:54 .

[keekee53]

Ryzaki wrote...

keekee53 wrote...

Even if you tell Kaidan the bomb had to go off, you still have to believe Kaidan still had a lot of gratitude, admiration and respect to the point where he probably did not believe MShep.  Horizon is probably where he starts to believe Mshep.  Kaidan realizes he may not mean anything to FemShep\\\\\\\\MShep.  At which point, your request to ask him to join is more out of convenience than Shep truly wanting him to be part of the team.  Romance FemShep even gets asked if Ilos meant anything to her.

Yes because renedouche is awe inspiring. Constantly insulting, belittling, killing and being plain cruel would earn Kaidan's admiration. (Not saying your wrong but giving another point of view).

And the reaction to someone you idolize dying is much different than someone you actually know and love dying.

Also the whole "well Shep didn't ask me first." makes him seem like a child that doesn't realize there are far greater things at stake than his feelings. Which while human isn't admirable nor does it seem like something Kaidan would do.

The whole coma thing...
Well if I haven't seen a loved one in two years and he had a new ship, new crew and was fighting an alien race.  I would have to question that as well.  Who wakes up from a two year coma and does all that...LOL

Someone who was sponsered by said people trying to kill bug things.
As for the loved one. Shep doesn't have to be a loved one...but I've said that already.

I understand your points...

Pick me first is not really what I was trying to say.  I honestly believe Kaidan thought he did not mean anything to Shep(male or female, lovers or not), by not recruiting him early on.

I do not pretend to know anything about the military but I get the impression when you are on the battlefield there is at the very least honor among each other.  To have a superior officer like Shepard who gets the impossible done, there is much much more.
Kaidan has a military mindset and therefore would admire, respect and honor Shepard even if he was belittled by Shep...just my opinion.
I say ask someone who has lost a close friend in battle, a battle they survived.  I believe the reaction would be similar to losing family\\loved ones.<3

[Ryzaki]

Life isn't all sunshine and roses. Sometimes people have to get their hands dirty.
And TIM is pretty much to me at least on the levels of the Council (Vasir) and the Alliance (who lead to the creation of Cerberus in the first place and hushes up many of Cerberus' experiments). I find the alliance far more disgusting than Cerberus. At least Cerberus admits that they've committed crimes (they make no apologises for it however). The alliance wants to pretend their hands are clean.
The rumors were also that Shepard was working with Cerberus Not just that Cerberus was abducting colonies.
Where is it said he's not happy about Garrus? He thought Grunt was a risk but goes "If you think you can control him and he's useful..." Tali an only be recruited once her "secret" mission was over. I suppose it took time for TIM to find out where she would be the (same with Thane and Samara).
He tells you that their with the alliance. The same alliance that has no authority where the kidnappings are taking place. His questions about having put that behind you are more in line with the whole "I need you focused on the mission.". He can't risk Shepard being distracted and placing the mission at risk.
As for Jack. She doesn't keep Shep busy. Hell she just sits on the hold plotting how to escape.

As for the Commanding officer bit: I don't know. I have people that I knew and admired but I didn't know them personally so I certainly didn't get overly emotional about it. That said different strokes for different folks.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 février 2011 - 07:00 .

[Chignon]

This is not the thread to discuss tIM, his motives and his opinions on the various ME2 squadmates, Ryzaki.

[jeweledleah]

Ryzaki wrote...

Life isn't all sunshine and roses. Sometimes people have to get their hands dirty.

  there are limits to just how dirty pepople can get their hands before they become what they are trying to fight i na first place - somethign that's often adressed in ME1

And TIM is pretty much to me at least on the levels of the Council (Vasir) and the Alliance (who lead to the creation of Cerberus in the first place).

Cerberus went rogue becasue I guess they didn't like being limited and Vasir was aproaching Saren's ruthlessness - remember what coucil did to Saren once Shepard provided proof of his going rogue?

The rumors were that Shepard was working with Cerberus Not just that Cerberus was abducting colonies.

yes rumors were both.  and Shep just confirmed at least one of them - the working with Cerberus part.  yes, VS should just trust them and come along quiety after that.  yes yes.

Where is it said he's not happy about Garrus? He thought Grunt was a risk but goes "If you think you can control him and he's useful..." Tali an only be recruited once her "secret" mission was over. I suppose it took time for TIM to find out where she would be the (same with Thane and Samara).

he says it in mission notes.  when you first ask him about Tali, he dismisses her along with the rest of the crew.  but eventualy she becomes ok to recruit?  why do I get the feeling that bth her interaction with SHepard and her father's Geth research have something to do with it?  (think TIM wouldn't be able to track that?)

He tells you that their with the alliance. The same alliance that has no authority where the kidnappings are taking place. His questions about having put that behind you are more in line with the whole "I need you focused on the mission.". He can't risk Shepard being distracted and placing the mission at risk.

convenient excuse isn't it, especialy once you find out that he set up the meeting in a first place, I'm sure he was hoping that VS would have been among the first taken and felt relived that VS and Shep did NOT reconcile.

As for Jack. She doesn't keep Shep busy. Hell she just sits on the hold plotting how to escape.

  I'm sure she doesn't just sit in the hold, just like Jacob doesn't just live in the armory, etc.

As for the Commanding officer bit: I don't know. I have people that I knew and admired but I didn't know them personally so I certainly didn't get overly emotional about it. That said different strokes for different folks.

working closly together on dangerous mission brings people extremely close together.  special ops teams are closer then brothers, its a well known fact, so losing one of your team can be a tough pill to swallow, especialy if it was a team leader.

editd to add - sorry, I have trouble resisting discussion baits :/ 

/slaps self - bad Leah. 

will picture of Kaidan make it better?

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 février 2011 - 07:10 .

[siriusrambles]

<3

[blauwvis]

(Apologies for the incoming wall of text, but this just kept growing and growing as I wrote it.)

I admit I haven't read exhaustively through the various VS-appreciation threads, but there's another aspect of Shepard's apparent betrayal that I don't believe I've ever seen brought up. 

The most plausible explanation of Shep's disappearance, from the standpoint of everyone aside from Cerberus and Liara, is that Shep faked her own death and went underground for a couple of years.  Joker witnessed Shep being spaced, which would have shortly lead to her death.  She must have been rescued almost immediately, which would in turn suggest that the whole attack on the Normandy was a setup.  Why else would Shep just happen to have a rescuer waiting in the wings?  It would have been one hell of a coincidence otherwise.  So Shep was willing to destroy her own ship, willing to risk the lives of everyone on board - including her lover - in order to put this plan into action.  Now that is some serious, gut-wrenching betrayal with an extra helping of stone cold callousness that would surely leave the VS questioning, well, everything.  It would also lend credence to the Collector/Cerberus conspiracy theory that the Alliance has adopted, since both groups would have been involved.

In ME1 Kaidan and Shep gathered information about plenty of Cerberus operations that experimented on humans, so why would it be so far-fetched that Cerberus was capturing colonists?  If Cerberus is working with the Collectors, why would it be so far-fetched that they would have super colonist-catching tech?

Finally, my FemShep dutifully delivers the line about how she doesn't take orders from Cerberus, but I agree entirely with Kaidan's response that she might just be deluding herself.  We know that, given the chance, Miranda would have implanted her with some sort of control chip.  Kaidan and Shep encountered plenty of instances of mind control and indoctrination in ME1, leading up to Saren himself, who was also convinced that he was in control.  For all that we the players know the truth, Shep's words are unreliable.

The presence of Garrus means next to nothing, as he's always been a follower and completely willing to go along with whatever Shep says.  I know less about Tali (never been one of my favorites; at best she seems like a star-struck teenager), but she would only be present in a modded game anyway.

In short, my only real gripe with Horizon is that Shep can't tell Kaidan that she did look for him.  (Oh, and the "hey how you doin'? " greeting is pretty lame)  I respect him for walking away, and I understand his reasons.  I don't agree with them, but at least there's one person in the whole universe who's willing to stick by his principles, even if (in this case) they lead him to make a choice that we don't like.  And the follow-up letter (plus his report that supports your statements re: the responsibility of the Collectors) suggests that he is somewhat aware of this, and perhaps reconsidering things.  Still, at least he's one character who sees Shep as a person, i.e. still fallible, and not Commander Shepard the Great Saviour Who Can Do No Wrong.

[meonlyred]

@Ryzaki
Oh he might have said comfortable, I can't remember. I have screen shots of all the mission summaries, somewhere. (Has over 6000 screen shots o_O) I only meant complacent in this way: "— adj 1. pleased or satisfied, esp extremely self-satisfied." Like Garrus was a 'gift' to keep Shepard happy.

@Shenzi Oh I want nothing more then to put a bullet between TIM's eyes. For Akuze, for Kahoku, for Paul and Gillian Grayson, for Horizon, for sending Shepard into the Collector trap, and for David Archer. But I love 'devil' characters. He'll give you everything you want but at a price you might not be willing to pay. THAT is what I love. I'm kind of a fan of bad guys. Every time Shepard is talking to him I can almost hear Rolling Stone Sympathy for the Devil playing in the background.

@Chignon
Right sorry. I'm kind of ADHD about topics

On Topic: yesterday's new DLC got me thinking. What do you guys see Kaidan's new uniform/combat armor looking like?

pseudocognition

Modifié par meonlyred, 09 février 2011 - 07:21 .

[Chignon]

jeweledleah wrote...

editd to add - sorry, I have trouble resisting discussion baits :/ 

/slaps self - bad Leah. 

will picture of Kaidan make it better?

/Kaidan snip

Why yes, it would! 

[jeweledleah]

I like the lines of gray and green one but with either some other shade of green, or that sort of brick orange-red that seems to be the theme for team's outfits.

edited to add.  I'm sorely tempted to reload my save pre laters Kaidan conversation and redo it, but be a lot nicer.  playing renegade is freaking hard :/

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 février 2011 - 07:28 .

[meonlyred]

jeweledleah wrote...
-snip-

will picture of Kaidan make it better?
-snip-

Silly Jeweledleah, pictures of Kaidan will ALWAYs make things better.

@Kaidan's outfits. I would like to seem him in someone more causally, jeans and a t-shirt if you will.

Modifié par meonlyred, 09 février 2011 - 07:29 .

[Anchor654]

meonlyred wrote...

*snip*

On Topic: yesterday's new DLC got me thinking. What do you guys see Kaidan's new uniform/combat armor looking like?

pseudocognition

*stares all googly-eyed*
I like the very left the best I think. There's a certain... yumminess to it.  And then the very right one as a close second.

[Selenora]

Horizon is the devs pathetic attempt to make us turn to the new LIs.Liara excluded coz Liara is being concidered the main and canon LI and we ALL should have romance HER.



You just think too much about kaidan's motivations. Kaidan does whatever the devs tell him to do.