8324 replies to this topic

[sapphyreelf]

Pacifien wrote...

Curious to know, do you think the fault in Horizon has to do with how Kaidan is written (as in, do you think he was out of character) or in the way Shepard was written? Because I really understood Kaidan's anger, and felt it was in keeping with his character, but none of the responses from Shepard would be what my Shepards would have said. Way too passive on her part.

For me, I found neither Kaidan or Shepard OOC.

Kaidan, espeically a romanced Kaidan, has every right to be passionate and angry there, to the point of being unreasonable. I think it's completely within his character, based on what he should know and be able to believe.

For Shepard, I don't find her OOC either. I found it refreshingly nice for Shepard, just once to be human and NOT have the perfect things to say in the situation. Of course, I would have loved for her to have been able to say the right things, because then I would have had more Kaidan obviously, but it was great that just once (and with how I played my canon Shepard) she was off her game.

I realize I am in quite the minority though.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Pacifien wrote...

Curious to know, do you think the fault in Horizon has to do with how Kaidan is written (as in, do you think he was out of character) or in the way Shepard was written? Because I really understood Kaidan's anger, and felt it was in keeping with his character, but none of the responses from Shepard would be what my Shepards would have said. Way too passive on her part.

I'm with you.  Kaidan (and Ashley) were in character; it's the writing for Shepard that doesn't work.  I've gone through the dialogue trees and still cannot find a response that rings true for my Sheps.  I almost wish there was a "spot VS, run back to the shuttle" response if these are the only dailogue options.

[Pacifien]

I took Kaidan's unwillingness to listen to Shepard as a display that this man can be hurt, and a testament to just how much the relationship meant to him in the first place. Now I could then say it's a testament to how being in relationships tends to make you go brain dead when it matters, and that's why Shepard couldn't think of anything to say, but then I thought maybe that sort of behavior only happens to me.

[Chignon]

Shenzi wrote...

And yes, Shepard is far too passive on Horizon.

This is my main gripe as well. The only reaction I could make out were slightly raised eyebrows.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Pacifien wrote...

Curious to know, do you think the fault in Horizon has to do with how Kaidan is written (as in, do you think he was out of character) or in the way Shepard was written? Because I really understood Kaidan's anger, and felt it was in keeping with his character, but none of the responses from Shepard would be what my Shepards would have said. Way too passive on her part.

I thought Kaidan was out of character because he accused Shepard of being a traitor before he knew the facts. Kaidan always seemed like the kind of person to form a strong opinion only after they have collated all the information. So to accuse Shepard of being a traitor - despite his loyalty to her previously, and more - based on 'rumours that Shepard was with Cerberus' without knowing the full story seemed out of place for Kaidan. He is always so logical and calm, so his anger on Horizon seemed illogical because Kaidan directed his anger at Cerberus. Something that Shepard can explain was not her choice.

As for Shepard's character. Love this question because I never really thought of it before. I was always frustrated by the responses. Renegade loved Cerberus, Paragon was too casual and uncaring. And the middle options didn't fully explain why she was 'with Cerberus.' My Shepard would have lashed out at the traitor part, and may have unleashed some biotic fury when Kaidan rejected her proposal for him to join her. She was too passive in my opinion.
My mainshep is a renegon who hates Cerberus (Akuze you see,) is ruthless to her enemies but caring to her friends. None of the conversation options fitted with my Shepard either. She wanted to give Kaidan a chance, but would have been angry at his premisconceptions and inability to see the bigger picture (like Garrus says,) and then his rejection.

[meonlyred]

Pacifien wrote...

Curious to know, do you think the fault in Horizon has to do with how Kaidan is written (as in, do you think he was out of character) or in the way Shepard was written? Because I really understood Kaidan's anger, and felt it was in keeping with his character, but none of the responses from Shepard would be what my Shepards would have said. Way too passive on her part.

I think Kaidan was slightly out of character, he is an Alliance marine and is loyal to the cause, but he seems like a practical man. He understands they aren't prefect and they do make mistakes. The scene seemed to be written with Ashley in mind. My original thought about why Shepard was so passive was she was actually TRYING to push Kaidan away to keep him safe from Cerberus and the Collectors, if they thought they hated each other they wouldn't use him again. Or if your Shepard was just looking to get laid in ME1 she did it cause she really never cared in the first place. I'm not so sure with her 'join me, it will be like old times.' The whole thing seemed unfinished like there should be more to it.

That is why I'm hoping for a VS DLC, not just for them to reconcile and hopefully get back together but also to explain what the hell happen with the Alliance while Shepard was dead. She was their poster child. Did TIM start planting mistrust in the Alliance long before Shepard even woke up?

[AntiChri5]

Pacifien wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
The problem with Horizon is being a player forced into a plot path they hate and having a close friend hate you for it.

Yeah, they need to force us along certain plot paths, but they shouldn't have a close friend yell at  us for a decision we didn't make.

That's realistic. That stuff happens.

Felt more like a blatant attempt to get the player to ditch Kaidan and try out one of those shiny new LI's.

[sapphyreelf]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Curious to know, do you think the fault in Horizon has to do with how Kaidan is written (as in, do you think he was out of character) or in the way Shepard was written? Because I really understood Kaidan's anger, and felt it was in keeping with his character, but none of the responses from Shepard would be what my Shepards would have said. Way too passive on her part.

I thought Kaidan was out of character because he accused Shepard of being a traitor before he knew the facts. Kaidan always seemed like the kind of person to form a strong opinion only after they have collated all the information. So to accuse Shepard of being a traitor - despite his loyalty to her previously, and more - based on 'rumours that Shepard was with Cerberus' without knowing the full story seemed out of place for Kaidan. He is always so logical and calm, so his anger on Horizon seemed illogical because Kaidan directed his anger at Cerberus. Something that Shepard can explain was not her choice.

Kaidan thought Shepard was dead. Rumors about Shepard not being dead begin circulating months before Shepard is revived on Lazarus Station, stating that Shepard is with Cerberus. Obviously more rumors begin after Shepard is revived and starts operating on Omega, etc. At some point, Kaidan is shipped off on the mission to Horizon, with these rumors - and whatever Intel the Alliance has received at this disposal (how much he knew from the Alliance remains to be seen).

Shepard arrives on Horizon and stops the Collectors. Kaidan sees Shepard is -in fact- not dead, despite the fact that he believed Shepard to be spaced. If Shepard isn't dead, that lends credence that the rumors are in fact true. It is much easier to jump to the conclusion that Shepard faked his/her own death and joined up with a renegade black ops Alliance division, rather than being resurrected from the dead, which is science fiction as far as he knows (as no one has been resurrected ever).

Even a logical, level-headed person might feel betrayed and be irrational in that kind of situation, in my opinion.

Edited by sapphyreelf, 08 January 2011 - 09:03 PM.

[jillyfae]

Pacifien wrote...

Curious to know, do you think the fault in Horizon has to do with how Kaidan is written (as in, do you think he was out of character) or in the way Shepard was written? Because I really understood Kaidan's anger, and felt it was in keeping with his character, but none of the responses from Shepard would be what my Shepards would have said. Way too passive on her part.

While I agree w/the 'concept' behind Kaidan's dialogue on Horizon, ie being angry and in shock and horrified at Cerberus etc so that he's not able to listen to a ludicrous story about 'I really was dead!' I don't think the execution of it was in character for either Alenko or Shepard.  Shepard is very passive, and Alenko's reaction is about the same regardless of what you say, when he tends to listen regardless of how upset he is.  I would've thought it would've been posssible to still have them at odds without making them both inept w/the conversation.  *shrugs*

[Shenzi]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
The problem with Horizon is being a player forced into a plot path they hate and having a close friend hate you for it.

Yeah, they need to force us along certain plot paths, but they shouldn't have a close friend yell at  us for a decision we didn't make.

That's realistic. That stuff happens.

Felt more like a blatant attempt to get the player to ditch Kaidan and try out one of those shiny new LI's.

This is exactly how the scene came across to me as well.
 
I would have preferred there to be a real difference in the conversation depending on if you chose paragon, renegade or neutral responses but it all leads to the same place.

[Pacifien]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
I thought Kaidan was out of character because he accused Shepard of being a traitor before he knew the facts. Kaidan always seemed like the kind of person to form a strong opinion only after they have collated all the information.

I think that's the person Kaidan wants to be, but he is still only human. He is still the guy who long ago got angry enough to snap a turian's neck.

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
So to accuse Shepard of being a traitor - despite his loyalty to her previously, and more - based on 'rumours that Shepard was with Cerberus' without knowing the full story seemed out of place for Kaidan. He is always so logical and calm, so his anger on Horizon seemed illogical because Kaidan directed his anger at Cerberus. Something that Shepard can explain was not her choice.

His anger on Horizon is the heat of the moment, but his email later on seems to be classic logical and calm Kaidan. If you go talk to Anderson about what happened on Horizon, he mentions that Kaidan's report confirms Shepard's story about the Collectors and Cerberus. Whatever Kaidan said on Horizon, he obviously thought about it more once he had time. That's the critical factor in being logical and calm sometimes: time.

Edited by Pacifien, 08 January 2011 - 09:04 PM.

[Shenzi]

jillyfae wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Curious to know, do you think the fault in Horizon has to do with how Kaidan is written (as in, do you think he was out of character) or in the way Shepard was written? Because I really understood Kaidan's anger, and felt it was in keeping with his character, but none of the responses from Shepard would be what my Shepards would have said. Way too passive on her part.

While I agree w/the 'concept' behind Kaidan's dialogue on Horizon, ie being angry and in shock and horrified at Cerberus etc so that he's not able to listen to a ludicrous story about 'I really was dead!' I don't think the execution of it was in character for either Alenko or Shepard.  Shepard is very passive, and Alenko's reaction is about the same regardless of what you say, when he tends to listen regardless of how upset he is.  I would've thought it would've been posssible to still have them at odds without making them both inept w/the conversation.  *shrugs*

lmao and we all know Ella is anything but passive, hence LfW

And no I'm still not looking for an update or anything...

[jillyfae]

@Shenzi: Someday I will finish Lost For Words, promise. Cause yeah, Ella fails at passive. Or forethought in general, really. See bad guy, shoot, see friend, hug, see brass, salute, see reporter, run away. *snorts*

And I certainly agree w/Sapphy and Pac in that I appreciate the window of 'human behavior' that both Alenko and Shepard get on Horizon, it helps emphasize the importance of the relationship that it inspires the stupid, but I still don't think the style of shock fit their characters. If that makes any sense.

[Slavka13748]

As several people have said, the dialogue choices for Horizon were the killer. I was totally on Kaidan's side for the most part - can you even say that you don't want to be working with Cerberus? Not that there was any justification for my Shep to be with Cerberus anyway...

Shepard reverting to brick mode didn't help either. I didn't particularly want the dialogue to be 'perfect' - as Pacifien said, that's not realistic, but "how've you been" just doesn't cut it, I'm afraid. That said, they managed to salvage Liara in LotSB, and Shepard got a bit more human... Who's to say they can't make something better out of Horizon?

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

sapphyreelf wrote...

Kaidan thought Shepard was dead. Rumors about Shepard not being dead begin circulating months before Shepard is revived on Lazarus Station, stating that Shepard is with Cerberus. Obviously more rumors begin after Shepard is revived and starts operating on Omega, etc. At some point, Kaidan is shipped off on the mission to Horizon, with these rumors - and whatever Intel the Alliance has received at this disposal (how much he knew from the Alliance remains to be seen).

Shepard arrives on Horizon and stops the Collectors. Kaidan sees Shepard is -in fact- not dead, despite the fact that he believed Shepard to be spaced. If Shepard isn't dead, that lends credence that the rumors are in fact true. It is much easier to jump to the conclusion that Shepard faked his/her own death and joined up with a renegade black ops Alliance division, rather than being resurrected from the dead, which is science fiction as far as he knows (as no one has been resurrected ever).

Even a logical, level-headed person might feel betrayed and be irrational in that kind of situation, in my opinion.

Didn't think about it this way. I didn't know that rumours started circulating about Shepard's revival months before Cerberus rebuilt her. But I still believe that Kaidan knew these things as rumours. He still accuses Shepard before she has an opportunity to defend herself and I think that is out of character for him. I agree that it was based with Ashley in mind, she is much more loud spoken. It wasn't how I interpreted Kaidan to be, on my first playthrough, I expected him to calmly listen to Shepard explain that she was stopping collectors and got revived by Cerberus (with a lot of strings attached) but wasn't working for them.

However, I suspect that the Illusive Man masterminded the rumours.
I say this because when he asks about putting your past relationships behind you, and Shepard responds "I'm free, clear and focused on the mission." He is happy by this response. TIM you manipulative scallywag!

I also agree with Anti-Christ, like I said earlier, I understand that Bioware did that so the player can explore the other LI's of ME2.

[sapphyreelf]

@Jilly: I'm not sure that the emotional outburst doesn't fit Kaidan's character. After the Vyrnnus situation, he went off by himself for some time to get things back under control. He had to get time and space between him and the situation to be able to get past it. Like Pacifen said, after Horizon, Kaidan has a chance to think about it and file his report, but in the heat of the moment - right then and there - seeing his supposedly dead former-CO (and ex-lover in some cases), I think he might be pushed to the point of losing his normal composure, self-control.

[Pacifien]

Shenzi wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
Felt more like a blatant attempt to get the player to ditch Kaidan and try out one of those shiny new LI's.

This is exactly how the scene came across to me as well.
 
I would have preferred there to be a real difference in the conversation depending on if you chose paragon, renegade or neutral responses but it all leads to the same place.

You know, to be honest, that's how I took the confrontation as well, along with Liara's reaction to Shepard on Illium, and it does make me wonder how many people could have started a new ME2 LI if their ME1 LI had accepted them immediately and was open to continuing their relationship. (Part of me doesn't want to know considering some of the more impassioned comments I read about Shepards switching romances/staying loyal.) And I can understand why the writers wouldn't want to go there because the realities of someone actively seeking to end a relationship that is going to break another person's heart is hard.

Had it just been the confrontation on Horizon, I would have felt dumped. Kaidan's email went a long way to making me feel like he was merely extremely angry about the situation, but not adverse to getting over it. Considering I was angry about working with Cerberus, I don't blame him.

[BECC4]

Why is it so unreasonable for Shep to turn into a babbling moron on Horizon? From my point of view Shep has been looking for her crew since she stopped being dead, enough to send one a tad loopy anyhow don't ya think? Then all of a sudden, the man she loves, who 5 minutes ago she thought had been captured by collectors is infront of her ..... And oh no it suddenly occurs to her that maybe in 2 years he's moved on and doesn't love her anymore yet for her it was days ago that they were together ..... What does she say?! What is the perfect response when your head is all messed up and to make matters even worse, he's mad at her because she's alive and didn't tell him (how the hell is he to know she did actually die and hasn't been undercover?)



No I think under the circumstances Both reactions are no only understandable but believable.



And yes I hated it too at the time and still do but I understand it.

[Jane Shepard]

Pacifien wrote...

Curious to know, do you think the fault in Horizon has to do with how Kaidan is written (as in, do you think he was out of character) or in the way Shepard was written? Because I really understood Kaidan's anger, and felt it was in keeping with his character, but none of the responses from Shepard would be what my Shepards would have said. Way too passive on her part.

Well maybe Shepard was passive but I can understand her. Kaidan was my Shepard's LI in ME1. She loved him. She was looking forward to see him after two years. Well, two years for him and only few days for her (as she told Jacob). Kaidan started to blame her she didn't try to contact him and then he began to blame her she was with Cerberus. I belive Shepard was passive cause she didn't expect anything like this.

[sapphyreelf]

@Tasha: TIM tells Shepard that he intentionally began rumors of your working with Cerberus before you were revived at some point. It was either pre- or post-Horizon. I can't recall precisely.



@Becca: I completely agree with how you say things are in Shepard's head. That's pretty close to how things were in my canon Shepard's head.

[Sandtigress]

Pacifien wrote...

Curious to know, do you think the fault in Horizon has to do with how Kaidan is written (as in, do you think he was out of character) or in the way Shepard was written? Because I really understood Kaidan's anger, and felt it was in keeping with his character, but none of the responses from Shepard would be what my Shepards would have said. Way too passive on her part.

Strangely, it was pretty much in character for my Shepard.  I think her response to Joker later was perfect (neutral option) - "He's moved on, I don't blame him.  It just reminds that I lost more than time..."

The whole thing would have been really awkward for both of them.  Here's Kaidan thinking "Why the hell are you alive and didn't bother to tell me?  You let me go through hell thinking you were dead?  I thought you cared about me!" and Shepard not wanting to drag him into Cerberus' machinations by revealing too much about what had happened to her, while realizing that she owes him some sort of answer because she does care about him.

It's the kind of situation that paralyzes a person into not saying what they might have said were they able to think about it, because really, if Kaidan is already doubting her as much as he has a right to, since people don't just come back from the dead, how is he supposed to believe someone who says "Hey, I was dead for two years and just came back to life, cut me some slack?"

I found the whole encounter very satisfying actually and the things that came after - Joker commenting on Kaidan, Kelly's concern, and then the post-Horizon email.  I never thought it was out of character for him - in fact the email is very Kaidan.  One of the things I admire about him is his maturity, and it takes a lot of maturity to admit that he might be wrong about the whole situation, the unbelievable might have happened, and be willing to apologize to her about his reaction.

With that as my perspective, I wrote this up as Shepard's reply.  I don't usually pimp my own stuff, but it's relevant.   I suspect that many who didn't like the Horizon encounter might also not like the reply, but the format gave me a way to say exactly what my Shepard would have.

[Pacifien]

To be as non sequitur about it as one can be, I just wanted to say that I shaved my head back in September/October and have noticed how it has a life of its own as it grows back again. I mention this because today is a Kaidan day for my hair, where my hair looks like Kaidan's. It also has Oghren days. From this evidence, I conclude that Kaidan has very thick, wavy hair.

[jillyfae]

sapphyreelf wrote...

@Jilly: I'm not sure that the emotional outburst doesn't fit Kaidan's character. After the Vyrnnus situation, he went off by himself for some time to get things back under control. He had to get time and space between him and the situation to be able to get past it. Like Pacifen said, after Horizon, Kaidan has a chance to think about it and file his report, but in the heat of the moment - right then and there - seeing his supposedly dead former-CO (and ex-lover in some cases), I think he might be pushed to the point of losing his normal composure, self-control.

An emotional outburst is completely in character.  Thinking Shepard went over to the black side of Alliance ops and betrayed everything he thought she believed in, turning their entire relationship into a series of lies, is the logical reaction to seeing her alive, on Horizon, and with Cerberus, especially after creepy TIM-inspired rumors.  Thus, yelling at Shepard makes sense.  (Even if they were just friends, or compatriots, he should still be upset that his former CO, with whom he went through a lot, is suddenly not at all the person he thought s/he was.)  The idea works for me brilliantly.  The actual dialogue doesn't.  *shrugs* 

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Pacifien wrote...

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
I thought Kaidan was out of character because he accused Shepard of being a traitor before he knew the facts. Kaidan always seemed like the kind of person to form a strong opinion only after they have collated all the information.

I think that's the person Kaidan wants to be, but he is still only human. He is still the guy who long ago got angry enough to snap a turian's neck.

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
So to accuse Shepard of being a traitor - despite his loyalty to her previously, and more - based on 'rumours that Shepard was with Cerberus' without knowing the full story seemed out of place for Kaidan. He is always so logical and calm, so his anger on Horizon seemed illogical because Kaidan directed his anger at Cerberus. Something that Shepard can explain was not her choice.

His anger on Horizon is the heat of the moment, but his email later on seems to be classic logical and calm Kaidan. If you go talk to Anderson about what happened on Horizon, he mentions that Kaidan's report confirms Shepard's story about the Collectors and Cerberus. Whatever Kaidan said on Horizon, he obviously thought about it more once he had time. That's the critical factor in being logical and calm sometimes: time.

It was a logical email. And showed that what happened on Horizon was part adrenaline, part heart broken and part anger. I was very glad when I received the email because it was more in character for him. And talking to Anderson seems to confirm that Kaidan told him that Shepard wasn't strictly 'working for Cerberus.' So I was relieved by that too. However, I do wonder at the sudden extremes in Kaidan's emotions on Horizon, perhaps it is part adrenaline. Horizon has just had it's colonists abducted after all with Kaidan as a witness.

Kaidan can certainly be passionate and lose control of his emotions, as he did with the turian. But Horizon was different. He was reuniting with the woman he had once loved. One who had broken his heart with her death, and then broken it again with her resurrection. He had a right to be angry, but to ignore Shepard's side of the story and see that it isn't actually as bad as it looks? You would think Kaidan would jump at the concept that Shepard isn't betraying the alliance after all that, but he doesn't.

Hmm... There should be a NSAS for Kaidan?