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[Pacifien]

TeenZombie wrote...
So Lukas wrote both Kaidan *and* Jacob? Interesting...

In the fine tradition of Conspiracy, I could theorize that Lukas wanted to ensure that female Shepard stayed loyal to Kaidan by writing the Jacob romance as he did.

Though I'm really not sure how much of Jacob's romance fails due to writing. My complaint has always been the voice acting first, such that I can barely even critique the writing because the voice acting is that distracting.

Modifié par Pacifien, 13 janvier 2011 - 08:51 .

[Sialater]

The prize line is pretty bad, Pacifien.



Lukas wanted to write an exact OPPOSITE of Kaidan?



If they're written by the same person... that'll should be a hell of fun LI confrontation. LOL

[AkodoRyu]

Pacifien wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
So Lukas wrote both Kaidan *and* Jacob? Interesting...

In the fine tradition of Conspiracy, I could theorize that Lukas wanted to ensure that female Shepard stayed loyal to Kaidan by writing the Jacob romance as he did.

This is completely BRILLIANT diversion! Now it all makes sense! XD

Modifié par AkodoRyu, 13 janvier 2011 - 08:58 .

[meonlyred]

Poor Jacob had such raw potential, you know like the Hindenburg.

[Renessa]

/unlurking for one of my pet theories...



I always thought, that Jacob had been written as an anti-Kaidan. Kaidan was critized as being too "whiney", boring, too soft etc. I always had the suspicion that the female players liked him more than the male players (i am generalising here).



I think, they hoped with Jacob (a man's man) they would finally create a LI for the femShep, who would not be detested by the male players.



We all know how that worked out. ;-)

[stephee]

thanks Pacifen for finding all that information.
Thanks Lucas for creating Kaidan.

Do we know if Lucas is working on ME3? last thing i heard was he was working on DA2.

[syllogi]

stephee wrote...

thanks Pacifen for finding all that information.
Thanks Lucas for creating Kaidan.

Do we know if Lucas is working on ME3? last thing i heard was he was working on DA2.

He worked on both ME2 and DA:O at the same time, so maybe they'll continue working that way. 

And I will once again mourn the loss of Chris L'Etoile from Bioware, because of this revelation.  Even if he's only partially responsible for Kaidan's writing, his contribution is appreciated.

Thanks for the info, Pacifien! 

[meonlyred]

Renessa wrote...

/unlurking for one of my pet theories...
I always thought, that Jacob had been written as an anti-Kaidan. Kaidan was critized as being too "whiney", boring, too soft etc. I always had the suspicion that the female players liked him more than the male players (i am generalising here).
I think, they hoped with Jacob (a man's man) they would finally create a LI for the femShep, who would not be detested by the male players.
We all know how that worked out. ;-)

I think you have a point there. When I say this I don't mean to bash on Jacob. I really actually don't have a problem with him. I even don't mind the infamous 'prize' line. I just find him incomplete. Maybe ME3 they'll give him a overhaul.
I find Jacob's loyal mission is one of the most distrubing loyality mission in the game. Not really sad, just really really dark. Straight out of something from Lord of the Flies, but with adults and toxic food. Yet it doesn't affect him or at least he says it doesn't. Kaidan's 'boot camp from hell' experience colored his personality giving his this wonderful social hiccup. 'Always leaving a way out' and keeping to himself mostly.
I thought I would have a hard time making it through ME2 without at least accidently romancing someone. But I had no problem. It had less to do with how much I like Kaidan and more to do with I had no interest in anyone else.
Don't get me wrong I love Garrus, he comes a close second on my favorite character list, but I didn't want Shepard to sleep with him. He was her student, her brother in arms, her best friend, why mess that perfect relationship up with sex? Thane is awesome to, very cool, very bad ass, but again I could not find it in me to want Shepard to sleep with him.

Modifié par meonlyred, 13 janvier 2011 - 09:35 .

[AmyBA]

meonlyred wrote...

Poor Jacob had such raw potential, you know like the Hindenburg.

lol, too true.

Jacob starts out pretty cool and interesting the first little bit of the game. I was like "Ah, dude is with Cerberus, but seems to genuinely support and look up to Shep, and hes even being pretty damn honest with her."

The after Freedoms Progress, it all falls apart.

It is kind of like others said, they didn't want him to be like Kaidan and be "whiney" so they made him completely bland and uncaring.

I was interested in his Loyalty mission, because I was like, "FINALLY! Dude has a chance to get MAD and go off and vent a bit! Show some kind of feelings!"

But nope. Hes calm and all "We'll see whats up" through out the whole thing, and then after when you try to talk to him?

*Shrugs* "I'm cool Shepard, doesnt phase or bother me, I'm past it. Sup?"

I was like "REALLY?"

This isnt to say I hate Jacob, I don't. I just really felt like they fell flat with him, and did not at all flesh out the character he could have been.

As for the romance, oy, the romance is weird to me, because it is pretty much just a booty call that Shep almost forces him into and you can tell he is so not for it at first. Her creepy verbal molestation was really out of character and made me feel sorry for him.

Modifié par AmyBA, 13 janvier 2011 - 09:46 .

[meonlyred]

AmyBA wrote...

As for the romance, oy, the romance is weird to me, because it is pretty much just a booty call that Shep almost forces him into and you can tell he is so not for it at first. Her creepy verbal molestation was really out of character and made me feel sorry for him.

I think that is what set me off most about the ME2 romances, all of them seem to me that Shepard comes on waaaaaay to strong. She-wolf looking for a man to eat, if you will.
ME1 had a nice lover's game, Kaidan and Shepard danced around each other from the get go. The smile after Eden Prime, the 'no wonder they won't like you' line on the wards, etc. It was wonderful watching them inch toward each other.
In ME2, Shepard came across (at least to me) as a bit of a horndog. It goes from 'hey how you doing' to 'I'll see you in my quarters before the endgame' way to quickly. I can barely stand talking to Jacob because of the way she says "I'm more interested in just talking for a minute?"
I think this screenshot sums it up pretty well. You do NOT tell a man right after he tells you about his dead wife that you WANT him!!!


Even Revan did not say that to Carth!!!

Modifié par meonlyred, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:07 .

[AmyBA]

God, I know. When I first saw that line to Thane, i was like "What the HELL Shep??? STOP!"

First time I chose that line, I did it to see Thane go "Er, lets change the subject and talk about something else."

But no, he goes for it! Seems so out of character for him too.

Modifié par AmyBA, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:12 .

[jtav]

To be fair, the actual line is much more respectful. I think what really hurts the ME2 romances is that the romance dialogue is separate from the regular dialogue, instead of interwoven with it. And the locker scene really makes the ME1 romances.

[Sialater]

The locker scene.... *sigh* It's up there with the Millenium Falcon.

[meonlyred]

*thinks of Shepard and Kaidan acting out the Han and Leia scene from empire* siiiiiiigh
Wait...Kaidan is a nice man and Shepard sure as hell ain't a princess.

Modifié par meonlyred, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:25 .

[Sialater]

So... there's a little role reversal.... Especially in the case of Meghan and Kaidan...

[Renessa]

The first time I played ME2 my Shep was so angry after Horizon (ok, I was also angry) that she actually did it with Garrus. And it just felt so wrong. Again Shepard seems to almost force him into it. It's not really a romance, but a "stress relief". To do that to your best friend is just stupid. I must admit, I have no idea how to move on from this rp-wise. Perhaps I won't import her into ME3



None of my other femSheps repeated this mistake. All true to Kaidan. ;-)



In contrast, I loved the Jack romance for my first maleShep. It built up nicely and you can believe that there are real feelings between them.



Well, in the end, it increases the chances for Kaidan to play an important role again in ME3 or perhaps even future dlc, if his romance still stands out so much.

[syllogi]

jtav wrote...

To be fair, the actual line is much more respectful. I think what really hurts the ME2 romances is that the romance dialogue is separate from the regular dialogue, instead of interwoven with it. And the locker scene really makes the ME1 romances.

Yeah, this is the crux of the matter, for me.  I kept chatting with Jacob, waiting to see if there was any indication that *he* was interested in Shepard...but instead, there was just the option to pursue him, which seemed odd to me.  I don't make a habit of flirting with people who have not shown definite signs of interest in real life, I don't think I'm going to do it in a game, either.  It's why I've always said that if I do play out any of the ME2 romances one day, I'll have to "fill in" more information than the game provides about the relationship with the prospective LI.  Otherwise I feel like I would be throwing my character at someone who may or may not even like her, much less want to form a relationship with her.

With Jacob, I do see how his romance was kind of the "anti-Kaidan" of ME2...but like I said above, not only did I not see attraction, I didn't even get the feeling that Jacob *likes* Shepard.  Which is why seeing him say he loves Shepard after the first rejection line in his love scene is surprising.  Is he just saying that to get in her pants at that point?  Or is he just that guarded???

[Chignon]

jtav wrote...

To be fair, the actual line is much more respectful. I think what really hurts the ME2 romances is that the romance dialogue is separate from the regular dialogue, instead of interwoven with it. And the locker scene really makes the ME1 romances.

You summed it up perfectly, jtav.

[meonlyred]

The only ME2 who seems kind of interested in Shepard is Thane, but it was more that he was marveled by her while she was tearing through merc in his recruitment mission.

[mllrthyme]

meonlyred wrote...

I think that is what set me off most about the ME2 romances, all of them seem to me that Shepard comes on waaaaaay to strong. She-wolf looking for a man to eat, if you will.
ME1 had a nice lover's game, Kaidan and Shepard danced around each other from the get go. The smile after Eden Prime, the 'no wonder they won't like you' line on the wards, etc. It was wonderful watching them inch toward each other. 

*pic snip*

This.  Kaidan's romance in ME1 is subtle, not some sort of hormonal overload.  It's obvious that Kaidan and Shep have feelings for each other, but it's not "in-your-face."  There's no chance of getting ninja-romanced.  I felt like ME2 skimmed over the romances.  The story is supposed to focus on Shep's companions and earning their loyalty, yet I felt a majority of the characters lacked depth, especially in the romance department.  Jacob could have been a great character, but after Freedom's progress he fell short.  Garrus is my bro, but I was sorely disappointed by the lack of dialogue that didn't involve romance. 

*sigh*  Shep misses her Kaidanz.

[Lianna sFfalenn]

TeenZombie wrote...

jtav wrote...

To be fair, the actual line is much more respectful. I think what really hurts the ME2 romances is that the romance dialogue is separate from the regular dialogue, instead of interwoven with it. And the locker scene really makes the ME1 romances.

Yeah, this is the crux of the matter, for me.  I kept chatting with Jacob, waiting to see if there was any indication that *he* was interested in Shepard...but instead, there was just the option to pursue him, which seemed odd to me.  I don't make a habit of flirting with people who have not shown definite signs of interest in real life, I don't think I'm going to do it in a game, either.

*de-lurks to air one of her own pet theories*

The way they wrote the romances for a female Shepard in ME2 lead me to believe that they were trying to avoid one of the common complaints from ME1 - namely, the "I've been stealth-romanced when I was just trying to be nice!" line. Personally I thought the romance in ME1 was woven in beautifully, but if you didn't want Kaidan (*takes a moment to try and imagine a worldview where this might be so, fails, moves on*) you almost had to pick lines that were downright nasty to the poor guy at some stage.

ME1 dialogue choices seemed to work on the idea of having the LI demonstrate interest in Shepard and then have a "Here is the big flashing dialogue option to end this romance!" sign, whereas ME2 went too far the other way - the LIs show no romantic interest until you pick the "This way for lurve!" dialogue. Hopefully the writers will have learnt from both approaches in ME3 and we'll get a nice balance between the two!

[meonlyred]

I hope there will be no more new romances for ME3, I mean we already have 5 for each gender, 6 if you count Kelly. 8 if you count the kind of romances with Mordin and Samara/Morinth. I just want them to build on those relationships.

Since the entire plot of ME2 was bases around the 12 squad mates, I doubt we will see many, if any, new squad mates, thus no new romances.

[Avilia]

I'll probably be lynched for saying this but in my mind ME2 would be better without the romance options. They're a little trite as you've all said and not really integral to the plot.

I love Garrus to bits but I'm perfectly happy with him and my Sheps being best friends. I romanced him once to see how it went and while it was sweet, it was very shallow. The time span on ME2 seems a lot shorter than ME1 to me - maybe that's why.

Eh, anyway my opinion for what its worth.

Modifié par Avilia, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:26 .

[AmyBA]

meonlyred wrote...

I hope there will be no more new romances for ME3, I mean we already have 5 for each gender, 6 if you count Kelly. 8 if you count the kind of romances with Mordin and Samara/Morinth. I just want them to build on those relationships.
Since the entire plot of ME2 was bases around the 12 squad mates, I doubt we will see many, if any, new squad mates, thus no new romances.

Yes, I truly believe we will not be seeing any new romances in ME3. Honestly it would be a bit silly, there would be no time to develope or flesh them out, whereas the other romances will have 2 games to do so.(ME1 romances get ME1 and ME3, and the ME2 romances have ME2 and ME3.)

A lot of people think they are going to do away with all squadmates as well, but I don't see that happening either. It would just be more work and nullify a large part of ME2.

I think we will see our previous relationships continued and deepened in ME3.

[Chignon]

My favourite romance is still: