574 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We know that Bhelen orchastrates the downfall of Trian, but that can be because the middle sibling either kills Trian or is framed for it. That's dwarven politics; even Bhelen's father killed in order to get the throne. And we're never told how his father died, if it was really illness or if someone poisoned him, it's all speculation.

We know from the testimony of witnesses that Enderin was on his deathbed because of Bhelen's maneuvers. As I mentioned, he had an assist in the death.

Except it's made clear that just as many people claim Harrowmont killed Enderin as Bhelen (when you speak to the dwarven salesman near the entrance of Dust Town). There's no conclusive proof that Enderin was killed by Bhelen.

Elhanan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for Bhelen vs. Harrowmont, the only one who will improve the lot of the casteless is Bhelen. Bhelen makes the effort to retake the lost thaigs and improve trade with the surface world. Harrowmont can't handle Branka, he's not going to make any changes to help the casteless, and he isolates Orzammar. Bhelen institutes reforms that allow the casteless to have rights. Harrowmont wants to keep everything the same, where the casteless have no rights and often have to turn to crime in order to survive. How is Harrowmont better than Bhelen when Bhelen is the only one who will make the necessary changes that Orzammar needs to survive?

Looking back from the epilogues, Yep; all is in 20/20 clarity for Bhelen as doing something for Dust Town. We also know that Harrowmont dies soon, and another King is sought. This still matter little to me when I am playing someone other than a precognative Warden, or a DC looking out for Rica.

The rest of the time, I judge by what is indicated to me by these men and their chosen staff. And Bhelen chose poorly, as Gavorn keeps giving away evidence that something stinks in their campaign. So I go with the more honest, and less criminal pick of Harrowmont.

And how is another King or Paragon going to get legislation passed in the Assembly that would benefit the casteless when Bhelen's reforms were met with assassination attempts? And Harrowmont was clearly dirty. I remember that the forged documents given pertain to two families who Harrowmont "bought" votes from, as Lord Helmi makes clear in his discussion with the Warden. Harrowmont's mercenaries try to murder the Warden if s/he sides with Bhelen. It's clear from the criers (and the DC Origin) that Bhelen is willing to do something for Dust Town. The epilogue for Harrowmont being King has the casteless suffer tremendously. Having played through Orzammar as an elven mage, I made the choice that would benefit the casteless and Orzammar as a whole by supporting Bhelen.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:18 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Circumstances, forces of nature, one random whackjob,unintended discoveries,  there are many things that can randomly screw up the best laid plans. Domino effect should also not be underestimated.

Well if Bioware is going to resort to something like that to justify its laziness, then meeh.

Dude, just because the story might not turn out as you think it should =/ laziness.

A writer lives by asking "what if?"  **** has to happen or there's no story.  So whatever the outcome is, it's not likely to be tied with pretty bows.  And just because Bhelen is a hero to you so it would be satisfying to see his plans succeed doesn't mean that's the case for others.  A lot of us would like to see Bhelen get what's coming to him sooner or later, for instance.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:20 .

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Note that much of the problem in Harrowmont's reign are due to distractions from Bhelen's rebellions. But that does not matter to me because the darkspawn are still opposed, the Casteless have a champion in the Warden and their new House, and that I acted in noble character and chose against the dross of Aeducan.

The problem I have with Harrowmont is that he's a traditionalist. He doesn't want things to change. His laws help keep Orzammar isolated, the nobles in power, and the casteless powerless. The thinking that things "might" be different with a new King or influential Paragon ignores that most of the Assembly doesn't want anything to be different than it is now. There's no indication that things will change unless Bhelen is supported, because the merchant near Dust Town's entrance mentions he'll improve trade relations with the surface, the guard near the entrance to the Deep Roads mentions he'll retake the old thaigs, and the criers mention that Bhelen is going to improve the lot of the casteless.

True, Bhelen dissolves the Assembly because there's a predecent for it, since the King to rule in the last Blight said the warrior caste answered directly to the King. As things are right now, the casteless have no rights, and they're still suffering under the same system they've had to endure for centuries. There have been casteless dwarves who have become Paragons in the past, and it obviously hasn't changed anything for the casteless who are living in Dust Town now.

Giggles_Manically wrote...



Ah! Here it is!

This sums up exactly why I support Bhelen.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

If I remember correctly, he states his family and most of the assembly look down on him with contempt, because of his lax, liberal views regarding society and caste.

Sadly, unless you convince him otherwise, he is a Harrowmont supporter, because for some reason, thinks Harrowmont would be more open to change. It's nice to be able to correct him if playing a DC supporting Bhelen.

Actually, Lord Helmi pretty much admits that Harrowmont bought his family's vote, and it didn't even seem to be up to him. He tells the Warden that he'll need to tell his mother that Harrowmont didn't "buy" their vote after all once he is told that Harrowmont is trying to "double-cross" his family.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
 I believe todays world troubles stem mostly from man's constant acts of inhumanity, and immoral behaviour.

Which will lead to this:

"To punish the oppressors of humanity is clemency; to forgive them is cruelty." - Maximilien Robespierre.

And finally to this:

"Terror is only justice: prompt, severe and inflexible; it is then an emanation of virtue; it is less a distinct
principle than a natural consequence of the general principle of democracy, applied to the most pressing wants of the country." - Maximilien Robespierre.

So I think I'll be content with how the world is, thank you.

"A fool and his money are soon elected."

"Anything important is never left to the vote of the people. We only get to vote on some man; we never get to vote on what he is to do."

"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

"So let's be honest with ourselves and not take ourselves too serious, and never condemn the other fellow for doing what we are doing every day, only in a different way."

- Will Rogers

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Does that mean Bhelen fails as a leader because he resorts to assassination and tyranny?  Had to ask.

Nope, his use of assassination was when he wasn't a leader and was climbing up the ladder. He had little options, he was unknown and he obviously couldn't mount a rebellion or coup D'etat (nor is it in his itnerests to do so, his entire campaign was based on his legitimacy as an Aeducan). The genius is that he eliminated two bird with one stone.

As for tyranny. I dont' see it as a sign of weakness, you obviously do.

Unless you are referring to assassination when he is the ruler? Not only do we not hear of this, but no it's not a sign of failure. A leader's job is to impose order. If assassinating an opponent would not destablize the system, then that's obviously the right hting to do. At that point, it's him picking his options according to his needs. He can send Golems to the Diamond quarter and destroy it if he wants, it would just be stupid.

The Assembly on the otherhand, when it was disolved, did nothing. When the sons of Harrowmont supporters were sent to fight on the surface, they did nothing. And seeing how they want to assassinate the king, I doubt it's the stablility of the system they are caring about. 

They were backed into a corner and they did little, which seems to suggest that they can;'t, not that they wouldn't.

Addai67 wrote...
Why would a tyrant forcing his political opponents into exile and making them into golems provoke a civil war?  Hmm.  Why does Loghain forcing a regency on Ferelden provoke a civil war?  Because sooner or later people realize that unbridled power in the hands of one man is dangerous, they get tired of being pushed around, and decide to take him down.  Et tu Brute!

Ferelden is different from Orzammar. For one, it's a city state where all the nobles are just there, they can't hide in the country side (no logistics problem). Second, Bhelen's alliance with many noble houses and with the casteless (plus golems) gives him a numerical advantage. Unlike Loghain, Bhelen is much better at making deals.   Plus Loghain was winning the civil war anyways and if it wasn't for the darkspawn, he would have crushed them utterly. Problem is, he doesn't have a vision to pelase them in the future, Bhelen has:
- trade rewards the noble houses loyal to him
- casteless alleviate the dependency on warriors.

Merchants and warriors are under the patronage of noble houses. With this dual pincer strategy, Bhelen has a very good chance at neutralizing the nobility.

And finally, because Bhelen already won (and he didn't even need golems). He already imposed order and his opponents were defeated. I dont' see how they can mount an armed uprising. Only small acts of rebellion that would hardly be destablizing and assassination attempts that may or may not destroy everything Bhelen worked to achieve (which I doubt).

And as an aside, the Senators who killed Caesar were also desperate and stupid. And because Caesar didn't know how to handle them. He was naive to think that they will ever accept him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
 A lot of us would like to see Bhelen get what's coming to him sooner or later, for instance.

If they explain how in a reasonable way that doesn't involve "Oh something extra-ordinary happened, Bhelen slipped and fell in a lava pool" to justify it, then sure.

However seeing what his policies are, it's far more likely that he will succeed and to make them fail just because some can't bring themselves into thinkingt that rutheless men actually achieve results, because they apparently live in a world of pretty bows, is just laziness or worse.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:33 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 A lot of us would like to see Bhelen get what's coming to him sooner or later, for instance.

If they explain how in a reasonable way that doesn't involve "Oh something extra-ordinary happened, Bhelen slipped and fell in a lava pool" to justify it, then sure.

Which is what I was refering to. Something unplanned, or unintentional consequences does not automatically mean lazy writing, provided it is done in a believable and imaginitive way.

Sure, Bhelen slipping and falling into a pool of lava would be on par with NWN2 "rocks fall, everyone dies" lazy sucky face-palm type ending. Or Bhelen just getting assasinated by some Joe Schmo nobleman, who then returns to his family and business as usual.

But there are a ton of things a creative writer could invoke using  Chaos theory or even just good old fashioned cause and effect. Like, lets say, during the retaking of one of the old Thaigs, Bhelens forces end up accidentially unleashing some greater threat to Orzammar. Something like, lets say, an army of sentient, intelligent harvesters, or some insidious plague. maybe a sort of biowarfare that ages ago the residents of the Thaig were experimenting with, but it turned horribly wrong, or got out of hand, and only the darkspawn destroying the place kept it hidden and contained.

Those are very simple examples, and I'm sure a Bioware writer who knows the DA universe better could come up with much better, more creative examples.

There are also possibilities within Orzammar of Bhelens policies failing. All one needs is a good grasp on dwarven culture, society, history, and politics, as well as a good dose of imaginative writing, to come up with a plausible, and totally unexpected, foil to his general plans.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If they are not doing this solely to please people or because they are lazy, then sure. I wouldn't like it and would think it's meeh, but at least it would make sense and would still not change the fact that of the two, Bhelen is clearly the better choice than Harrowmont unless something out of the ordinary that cannot be accounted for happens.

[IanPolaris]

maxernst wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And why would disolving the Assembly lead into civil war? He already did it and there was no mention of it. The sons of Harrowmont supporters have been sent to the surface to be useful for once in their lives and he already delt with most of the opposition already.

Fine, sure, if your Warden is pyschic, Bhelen is obviously the better choice.  But if you have to argue the decision based on what you know prior to crowning a king, it's a lot less clear cut.  You don't really know what Bhelen will do when he becomes king.  You might have heard that he plans greater ties with the surface and freeing the casteless, but lots of people say they're going to do things when they have power and then don't do them. 

You don't have to be psychic to know that Bhelen is the better choice for the Grey Warden if you are playing the Grey Warden as a Grey Warden (i.e. What would Duncan do?)  If you talk with both Lord Harrowmount and Prince Bhelen (and you can do this), Prince Bhelen gives you a clear and absolute promise that he will support you and back your treaty with the troops you need.  Lord Harrowmount only promises to go to the Assembhly and say "pretty please" even though as King during a Blight, he has the power to send troops unilaterally (as King Bemot did during the last blight as confirmed by the Shaper of Memories).

IMHO from the PoV of a Grey Warden, that's not a difficult choice.

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If they are not doing this solely to please people or because they are lazy, then sure. I wouldn't like it and would think it's meeh, but at least it would make sense and would still not change the fact that of the two, Bhelen is clearly the better choice than Harrowmont unless something out of the ordinary that cannot be accounted for happens.

That was pretty much my whole point all along. In the game and in the short term, Bhelen all the way. But sh*t can happen to even the best laid plans. So long as it's well written sh*t happening that makes sense or adds to it, then excellent.

I would not like it either if they did so out of laziness or to do so to cater to general people-pleasiness. However, they could also do it for alot of other reasons, such as to set the stage for something else.

[SunnKingg]

I choose Bhelen every time. Even when i played a Dwarf noble. He might not be the most favorable person to be around and he played the puppet master to his siblings' death and downfall, but who can truly say Harrowmont or Endrin where any better. In addition, i loved that he was trying to advance the Dwarven culture. Through him the dwarves will be drug into the modern age by any means necessary. One needs a king that can tread the line of morality to get great things done for his people..........but he is still an ***hole.....not everyone is perfect.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 A lot of us would like to see Bhelen get what's coming to him sooner or later, for instance.

If they explain how in a reasonable way that doesn't involve "Oh something extra-ordinary happened, Bhelen slipped and fell in a lava pool" to justify it, then sure.

However seeing what his policies are, it's far more likely that he will succeed and to make them fail just because some can't bring themselves into thinkingt that rutheless men actually achieve results, because they apparently live in a world of pretty bows, is just laziness or worse.

Well, sometimes people do just fall into lava pits?  Especially when they're all over the place like they are in Orzammar- man oh man, tripping was never so risky. 

Besides the fact that Bhelen makes a lot of enemies.  He who lives by the sword...  That's what tends to happen to ruthless people, too. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
  He who lives by the sword...  That's what tends to happen to ruthless people, too. 

He who doesn't in a society based on the sword and cuthroat politics, will more likely suffer that outcome.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
  He who lives by the sword...  That's what tends to happen to ruthless people, too. 

He who doesn't in a society based on the sword and cuthroat politics, will more likely suffer that outcome.

That's what Tony Soprano said, but the series had to come to an end.

Best scenario for me would be for Bhelen to come to his inevitable end and Rica's son be a king who's both strong and just.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

Well, sometimes people do just fall into lava pits?  Especially when they're all over the place like they are in Orzammar- man oh man, tripping was never so risky. 

Besides the fact that Bhelen makes a lot of enemies.  He who lives by the sword...  That's what tends to happen to ruthless people, too. 

Well, yes. And I wouldn't mind if that happened to. But not just some random noble assassinating him sort of cheeziness. To pull something off like that, itwould require some pretty epic treachery and cunning, given that Bhelen is quite cunning and ruthless himself.

Like, say, someone very close to Bhelen, who he trusts, doing the deed, for some unforseen, yet legit, reason. From some quarter that Bhelen would have never seen it coming, or ever expected, despite all his cunning and ruthlessness. Just some noble killing him wouldn't make sense, since Bhelen would expect something like that, even plan for it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
That's what Tony Soprano said, but the series had to come to an end.

Best scenario for me would be for Bhelen to come to his inevitable end and Rica's son be a king who's both strong and just.

I see nothing unjust about Bhelen's rule. Justice is sometimes best administered roughly. The Deshyrs deserve more for doing what they have done to Orzammar. 

Best scenario for me would be Bhelen dying of old age, like many other "tyrants" that some people think have to die in a horrible way but don't, and for his son Endrin to be as smart as he and more smooth as the circumstances would have hopefully changed.

[Giggles_Manically]

Just politicians in an unjust system end up being jokes or quaint relics who can never get anything done. Corruption, murder, and intrigue are parts of medieval courts.



Those who try to live above it, end up as a footnote in a textbook.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Those who try to live above it, end up as a footnote in a textbook.

I think most don't even manage to get that far.

[Giggles_Manically]

I finally remember what my prof said:



"Show me a just and fair medieval leader who changed history while never doing something "bad" and I will show you a great liar, and/or someone with really good PR.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Those who try to live above it, end up as a footnote in a textbook.

I think most don't even manage to get that far.

Perhaps they choose better books. Or prefer the comics.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I finally remember what my prof said:

"Show me a just and fair medieval leader who changed history while never doing something "bad" and I will show you a great liar, and/or someone with really good PR.

Before someone jumps and says Salah Al Din / Saladin, he also did his fair share of ruthless acts appropriate for his time, he just didn't go overboard like his enemies. In comparision, he looks like a saint. 

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I finally remember what my prof said:

"Show me a just and fair medieval leader who changed history while never doing something "bad" and I will show you a great liar, and/or someone with really good PR.

These things are all relative.

[Costin_Razvan]

As someone with a degree in history ( and who has spent quite a wee bit of time studying Medieval times ) I can't think of any.



Trust me, if you think Hitler was bad then you really don't want to open the books of the Medieval Age.

[Giggles_Manically]

Yep anyone who lived in that time period got their hands into various nasty things:

Excommunications led to people being butchered.

Assassins wiped out whole families.

Towns were raised to the ground or starved.



Never underestimate how brutal leaders had to be, even Roman Emperors who mainly built roads had to do many things to keep order. Read about decimation under Roman Legions or how slave revolts were put down.



Hell Bhelen is like Mr Rogers compared to most ancient leaders. He kills one brother and/or frames the other. OH NOES!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Check this out.

Bhelen is really nothing in comparision to what others have done.