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Am i only one who put Bhelen as king?


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#351
Hukari

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You are correct in that regard; one doesn't simply need to be good at what they do to achieve paragonhood. Yet Branka achieved her Paragonhood via the will of her mind and ingenuity of her craft. She was a lowly smith, and through the creation of her life's work, achieved a rank unheard of. Caridin did the same, as have many paragons before and since. It is a rare thing; but so is becoming a billionare.

I am not arguing for perfect social mobility. I am arguing that social mobility -exists-, which is what others have argued against Harrowmont. As to empowering the nobles, no, they do not have all the power. The King and state hold power, and thus with Harrowmont, that power was dispersed to the intercompeting nobles.

Yes, the surface trade is what sustains Orzammar; but no system can survive internally in any advanced state. That's as assumed a statement as saying 'the sky is blue'. The point I am trying to make is, nobles competing against each other to spend their resources on the cream of the crop craftsmen and soldiers, ensures that if one is good at what one does, they recieve compensation and status for it. There is also the fact of adoption within noble houses, as evidenced by the Warden's illegitimate son being able to be taken in by House Aeducan or House Harrowmont without so much as a 'how'dya do' about his heritage.

But now, we come to the issue of politics vs. survival. First, let us say this: The Dwarven race is not going to go extinct. Kal-Sharok, Kal'Hirol, et cetera, are all firmly in Dwarven hands. Even if every Dwarven holding, if every city beneath the earth were to be exteriminated to the last, the Dwarven race would still be populous. It was mentioned in a codex that the surfacers may now well outnumber those that dwell underground.

So, my answer to that is this, two pithy phrases. "Death before dishonour", and "He who sacrifices liberty for security, deserves neither." The latter, of course, being a paraphrase.

Edit: Ah, posted before your response, KoP. Let me dissasemble it: I am not arguing Augustus was not authoritarian, or that he didn't do good works. I am arguing that he inherited the political situation of Julius Caesar, who laid most of the political groundwork in the transformation. The assassination was not the end of the formation to Empire; I argue that it was with his death that the Empire was, politically, formed. The divisions were made, the power concentrated in the hands of the few, all lumped into Octavian's lap.

It was the actions of Emperors who had no such 'gift', who instead used their positions to gently ease the Empire towards the Republic it once was, that mark a truly fine Roman. Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus, and sadly, poor Marcus. The latter I am hesitant to put on there, due to his poor choice in Commodus, and breaking the tradition of no direct lineage. You see, that was a period when the glory of Rome was at it's height; not under the civil wars and violent upheaval that Caesar and Octavian brought with them. A lesson is to be learned from that.

For further references on it, I would recommend Machiavelli's "Discourses on Livy". They're really quite astounding, and make a perfect example of what is going on here.

Modifié par Hukari, 11 janvier 2011 - 01:47 .


#352
Elhanan

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

The Assembly fought for months when they only had two people to chose from. They almost went to civil war during a blight to decide. Now they have no strong leaders and its open season on the throne for whoever wants it.
Bye bye Orzamar.


A Paragon Warden in their midst might be influential. But perhaps the Assembly is too busy watching toons to post on the forums to consider this....

Image IPB

#353
Graspiloot

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, it was present elsewhere. In Rome it was present. In the Islamic lands, it was present (slaves in fact could become Sultans and viziers and they very often did. And the peasants were not serfs).

Point is, Bhelen's reforms offer a lot more social mobility than the almost non-existent mobility in Harrowmont's case.


Even in medieval ages this could happen, certainly more likely than a dwarf becoming paragon...

Elhanan wrote...

1 - Complete lack of evidence. There is no proof to these allegations; not even more forged papers from Gavorn.
2
- Being commonplace does not equate to being right, proper, ethical, or
moral. And Bhelen certainly proves he is common enough.
3 - Never
said it was I believe, as this has not happened to me in my game. I have
only chosen to save the Anvil for Bhelen once or twice; never for
Harrowmont as I consider Branka as vile as Bhelen. That said, if the
razing of Dust Town occured during the civil war within Orzammar, I
would hesitate to say that this was worse.


1. But is it not very likely? Since even Endrin had to kill his own brother and this seems to be norm in the dwarven politics.
2. No, but learning the game is the only way to actually have a chance at winning.
3. Well it doesn't whether it happened in your game, but I wanted to show Harrowmont's willingness to crush the casteless.

Hukari wrote...

The point of choosing Harrowmont is -not-
to give him strength, is what I am saying. The point with choosing
Harrowmont is to re-emphasize compromisei n the Assembly, thus leading
to more power being held into the nobles. With the replacement of a
king, in terms of power, with many competing nobles, the merchant class
will arise and class barriers will begin to disintegrate. Compounding
that, you have a reformist Paragon who can direct Dwarven culture
towards different routes, and you can achieve what Bhelen would never
dream of, and actively worked against.

This is the system of the last hundreds of years, but the nobles have grown complacent  and putting a leader on the throne who proves he doesn't want change even if given the chance will not do anything to help the system. The only thing that can help the dwarves is changing the system, as this is not working. The nobles are cooperating and conspiring with one other rather than create any form of competition.

#354
Giggles_Manically

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Elhanan wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

The Assembly fought for months when they only had two people to chose from. They almost went to civil war during a blight to decide. Now they have no strong leaders and its open season on the throne for whoever wants it.
Bye bye Orzamar.


A Paragon Warden in their midst might be influential. But perhaps the Assembly is too busy watching toons to post on the forums to consider this....

Image IPB

You think any of these baboons are going to listen to anyone?
The throne is wide open and all of them can see it.

I am so sure that they will listen to you when they have thoughts of kingship on their mind. :pinched:

#355
KnightofPhoenix

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Hukari wrote...
There is also the fact of adoption within noble houses, as evidenced by the Warden's illegitimate son being able to be taken in by House Aeducan or House Harrowmont without so much as a 'how'dya do' about his heritage..



That's not indicative of anything. That was given in exchange for very valuable political support.

Hukari wrote...
But now, we come to the issue of politics vs. survival. First, let us say this: The Dwarven race is not going to go extinct. Kal-Sharok, Kal'Hirol, et cetera, are all firmly in Dwarven hands. Even if every Dwarven holding, if every city beneath the earth were to be exteriminated to the last, the Dwarven race would still be populous. It was mentioned in a codex that the surfacers may now well outnumber those that dwell underground..



Kal Sharok is in even worse shape than Orzammar because they have no lyrium.

Oh and because there are surface dwarves, let's not give a damn about Orzammar? Oh...ok. I mean why not, the dwarves can live in a diaspora on the surface, what's the big deal. Right?

Hukari wrote...
So, my answer to that is this, two pithy phrases. "Death before dishonour", and "He who sacrifices liberty for security, deserves neither." The latter, of course, being a paraphrase.


Laughable. Easy to utter those words when one has not lived in a place that's collapsing on itself.

#356
Giggles_Manically

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I am so sure those sayings will make the dwarves happy when they have all been eaten or turned into Brood Mothers.

#357
Elhanan

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Graspiloot wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

1 - Complete lack of evidence. There is no proof to these allegations; not even more forged papers from Gavorn.
2- Being commonplace does not equate to being right, proper, ethical, or moral. And Bhelen certainly proves he is common enough.
3 - Never said it was I believe, as this has not happened to me in my game. I have only chosen to save the Anvil for Bhelen once or twice; never for Harrowmont as I consider Branka as vile as Bhelen. That said, if the razing of Dust Town occured during the civil war within Orzammar, I would hesitate to say that this was worse.


1. But is it not very likely? Since even Endrin had to kill his own brother and this seems to be norm in the dwarven politics.
2. No, but learning the game is the only way to actually have a chance at winning.
3. Well it doesn't whether it happened in your game, but I wanted to show Harrowmont's willingness to crush the casteless.


1 - Only to those opposing Bhelen, or ignoring the evidenct that he killed his brother(s).

2 - One can learn the game without making all the same moves.

3 - asked and answered.

#358
Hukari

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And have you, hm? Have you lived under the system you espouse? No, because we are talking about Thedas, and the political philosophy therein. Your attempt at insult is hilarious, though.



To the meat of your work: It's not indicative of anything? The fact that, by simple adoption, one that was born of a noble hunter can be given a noble birth, land, wealth, title... that is not -indicative- of anything? A favored servant being adopted into a family, a proud warrior, a mighty retainer doing the same? I think it is -highly- indicative.



I am simply saying that the question is not, as some have put it, that the Dwarven species will go extinct. Orzammar, at the least, is quite stable, and the fact that Kal Sharok has survived is even more evidence. You fail to realize that Orzammar is -reclaiming- land, not losing it. Kal'Hirol is a fine example of this, being put forth not by the King of Orzammar, but by an independent push by House Helmi. Another example of Nobles actually -doing- things.

#359
Graspiloot

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Hukari wrote...

and "He who sacrifices liberty for security, deserves neither." The latter, of course, being a paraphrase.


This only applies to democracy I think, since in monarchy "sacrificing liberty" doesn't apply



It was the actions of Emperors who had no such 'gift', who instead used their positions to gently ease the Empire towards the Republic it once was, that mark a truly fine Roman. Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Antoninus, and sadly, poor Marcus. The latter I am hesitant to put on there, due to his poor choice in Commodus, and breaking the tradition of no direct lineage. You see, that was a period when the glory of Rome was at it's height; not under the civil wars and violent upheaval that Caesar and Octavian brought with them. A lesson is to be learned from that.






Hadrian's rule was the beginning of the fall of Rome as he is not only the most overrated emperor of them all, but actually the first one that permanently made it weaker and made it into a peaceful empire.

#360
Hukari

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You seem to corrolate peace with weakness; was not the Pax Romana a time of greatest strength? Switzerland hasn't gone to war in goodness knows how long, yet they hold the financial world in their grip, which is far greater than any military victories.



And, much as it may shock, the phrase applies to all governance. Any loss of liberty is inherently something to be fought; unless said liberty is given by the express consent of those in posession of it. A man selling himself into slavery, whilst unfathomable to me, is still a virtuous thing, as it was he who gave up his own liberty.



But I digress. The mere fact that there is an Assembly means 'tis not a monarchy in the truest sense of the word, but in fact a parliamentary monarchy or an oligarchy. The King is less a hereditary monarch, as he is a 'speaker of the senate', if you will.

#361
Elhanan

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Giggles_Manically wrote...

You think any of these baboons are going to listen to anyone?
The throne is wide open and all of them can see it.

I am so sure that they will listen to you when they have thoughts of kingship on their mind. :pinched:


I guess it depends on the Paragon. Mine supported Harrowmont, so Bhelen's baboons are already less in numbers, and those remaining may decide to assist House Aeducan anyway if that be the case.

#362
KnightofPhoenix

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Hukari wrote...

And have you, hm? Have you lived under the system you espouse? No, because we are talking about Thedas, and the political philosophy therein. Your attempt at insult is hilarious, though.


Yes I have. You want me to tell you which country?
The people from neighbouring countries had it even worse than me.

Hukari wrote...
To the meat of your work: It's not indicative of anything? The fact that, by simple adoption, one that was born of a noble hunter can be given a noble birth, land, wealth, title... that is not -indicative- of anything? A favored servant being adopted into a family, a proud warrior, a mighty retainer doing the same? I think it is -highly- indicative.


A male child automatically gets all this if  his father is a noble. But if it's a daughter? She gets thrown out.
That's not indicative of anything, other than a noble male can screw with whoever he wants and if it's a son, he becomes a noble like his same sex parent.

That's not adoption. That irrational gender and  caste calculations that make no sense whatsoever.

So if you are saying that women whoring themselves (and hoping for a male child) is enough social mobility to justify the system Harrowmont represents, then wow.
That's not based on skill. Or on anything, except luck. So it's not social mobility at all.

Hukari wrote...
I am simply saying that the question is not, as some have put it, that the Dwarven species will go extinct. Orzammar, at the least, is quite stable, and the fact that Kal Sharok has survived is even more evidence. You fail to realize that Orzammar is -reclaiming- land, not losing it. Kal'Hirol is a fine example of this, being put forth not by the King of Orzammar, but by an independent push by House Helmi. Another example of Nobles actually -doing- things.


Kal Hirol is said to have done something horrible to survive, though we do not know what.
And Orzammar stable? Um...with Harrowmont dying it falls into civil war. and if he has golems, it falls into regression. And before that, it was on the brink of civil war because it can't pick between two canditates in the middle of a blight. That's stable?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2011 - 01:59 .


#363
Graspiloot

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Hukari wrote...


I am simply saying that the question is not, as some have put it, that the Dwarven species will go extinct. Orzammar, at the least, is quite stable, and the fact that Kal Sharok has survived is even more evidence. You fail to realize that Orzammar is -reclaiming- land, not losing it. Kal'Hirol is a fine example of this, being put forth not by the King of Orzammar, but by an independent push by House Helmi. Another example of Nobles actually -doing- things.


This is just not true, Orzammar is losing territory and more importantly, manpower. Only under Bhelen when they finally start using untapped sources of manpower will they really make any progress.
Kal'sharok is hardly an example since that is a whole other kingdom and not related to Orzammar politics.

Hukari wrote...

You seem to corrolate peace with weakness;
was not the Pax Romana a time of greatest strength? Switzerland hasn't
gone to war in goodness knows how long, yet they hold the financial
world in their grip, which is far greater than any military victories.


But in the end one of the many causes for their downfall. For example when the huns came the feared reputation of the Roman legions was gone and the barbarians would rather flee into the Roman Empire and fight the Romans than the huns. That is just one example.

#364
KnightofPhoenix

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Hukari wrote...

You seem to corrolate peace with weakness; was not the Pax Romana a time of greatest strength? Switzerland hasn't gone to war in goodness knows how long, yet they hold the financial world in their grip, which is far greater than any military victories.


And how was this Pax Romana achieved? By legions.
But I don't get the point of this argument.

Pax Romana was achieved with the authoritarian Empire and not the Republic anyways. So what's your point?

Hukari wrote...

And, much as it may shock, the phrase applies to all governance. Any loss of liberty is inherently something to be fought; unless said liberty is given by the express consent of those in posession of it. A man selling himself into slavery, whilst unfathomable to me, is still a virtuous thing, as it was he who gave up his own liberty.


You'd be surprised to see how much freedom people are willign to lose, to survive. Regardless of how unfathomable you think it is.

Except of course that for the majority of people, they recieve more freedoms with Bhelen than with Harrowmont.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2011 - 02:04 .


#365
Sarah1281

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Hukari wrote...

To the meat of your work: It's not indicative of anything? The fact that, by simple adoption, one that was born of a noble hunter can be given a noble birth, land, wealth, title... that is not -indicative- of anything? A favored servant being adopted into a family, a proud warrior, a mighty retainer doing the same? I think it is -highly- indicative.

This isn't just 'hey, I really liked that servant who died so I'm adopting his son' or something of the sort. This is a highly unique case where a noble fathered a child and after conception but before birth, said father lost his caste. The Aeducans didn't believe her claims and she apparently didn't see fit to tell them it was the DN. If this had happened while Endrin was alive, Mardy and child probably would have been taken in. If Endrin was passed, I think Bhelen probably would have rejected her. Either way, Harrowmont isn't looking at it as adopting a casteless child. He is seeing it as providing the noble grandson of a king with his proper status since Bhelen refuses to acknowledge him.

#366
Graspiloot

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Hukari wrote...

And have you, hm? Have you lived under the system you espouse? No, because we are talking about Thedas, and the political philosophy therein. Your attempt at insult is hilarious, though.


Yes I have. You want me to tell you which country?
The people from neighbouring countries had it even worse than me.


Ah you are not American, that explains your un-american ideas ^^

But I am glad, I was starting to think I was the only non-american here (No offense, but the difference in views between Europeans and Americans is pretty big, even though I have the idea KoP is not European either).

#367
Hukari

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I'm sure. And I, too, have lived under such a system for a time. The point is, we are talking Thedas and political philosophy. For all I know, you're Mr. Bigglesworth from Nowhereshire, and I'm the ruddy King of England. We are talking -ideas-, that are inherently separate from the people that espouse them.

And you forget. As the Warden noble was cast out of Orzammar, he is now casteless, thus his son is as well. The adoption -was of a casteless child-. That, at the least, is -highly- indicative of social mobility via adoption. And remember, Harrowmont -does- want to reform the system; again, Bhelen's blocking of the motion via insurrection, and his petty childishness caused an occupation in his Kingship that prevented any sort of action.

And before bringing up the golem situation, consider what the golems imply; it's an inherently wicked process, trapping one behind a body of stone and iron. And they were -still- used to crush Bhelen's rebellion, so the issue comes to his pettiness once again. The mere fact that he needed them lies squarely on the upstart Prince's shoulders.

And the civil war, again, lay due to Bhelen's antics. When I stepped into Orzammar, the first thing I saw was one of Bhelen's fanatics -murder- a man for having a dissenting voice. Is -that- stable? Hell, he'd probably kill more people than the Darkspawn. And again, you fail to take into account the Paragon; I.E. the single most important person that is -in- that story.

I can see you falling on your arguments somewhat, as you try to prop up said tyrant-prince from scrutiny into the political veracity of his statements, woefully clinging to your inability to be incorrect. By the by, it's Kal Sharok. Kal'Hirol was the thaig taken by House Helmi, entirely of their will, no matter who the King is. So Orzammar can, apparently, still function with King Harrowmont. Funny, that.

Edit: For reference, I myself am not American. But give me a sec to dissasemble all the arguments; I admit, my typing is not as fast as it used to be.

Modifié par Hukari, 11 janvier 2011 - 02:09 .


#368
Sarah1281

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It's not like being American automatically makes you a Harrowmont supporter...

#369
Hukari

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See above, if you would?


#370
Graspiloot

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Sarah1281 wrote...

It's not like being American automatically makes you a Harrowmont supporter...


I did not mean it like this, I apologise if it could be taken this way. Americans and Europeans generally differ very much in ideas on politics, etc. This is merely what I meant to say.

#371
Hukari

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The end of the Roman empire can't be brought down to one particular issue. It was not a military defeat that brought them low, but a cultural one; stagnation under emperors who cared less and less for the Roman people, a steady decline over ceturies of economic, military, political, and cultural issues, the fracturing of the Empire under Constantine. -All- of it. Any that tries to point to one issue and says, "This is why the Roman Empire died", is either an ignoramus or lying to your face.



The Pax Romana was also supported, not merely by the Roman legions, but by the industriousness the tranquility of political stability brought. Trajan's conquests brought with it great wealth, it provided a boon to the empire so large that the dynasty proved to be perhaps the height of Roman Imperial history. It was economics, culture, politics, -and- military that provided the support for such a thing.



As for the uniqueness of adoption, we see no evidence of that. All -I- have seen, both in game and in the out of game resources, points nowhere towards your particular claim that it is a once-in-a-lifetime event. For all we know, it could be the only instance, or it could be a gift given to favored servants. Until a Bioware poster comes in and says "X", then we're rather fumbling in the dark in that regard; but the potential for social mobility exists.


#372
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A male child automatically gets all this if  his father is a noble. But if it's a daughter? She gets thrown out.
That's not indicative of anything, other than a noble male can screw with whoever he wants and if it's a son, he becomes a noble like his same sex parent.

That's not adoption. That irrational gender and  caste calculations that make no sense whatsoever.

So if you are saying that women whoring themselves (and hoping for a male child) is enough social mobility to justify the system Harrowmont represents, then wow.
That's not based on skill. Or on anything, except luck. So it's not social mobility at all.



 Thissummed up well.

there really is no social mobility, unless a once in a billion chance of becoming a Paragon, or having to play rich man's plaything as the sole means of achieving status, is  social mobility.

It's like saying Jews in **** Germany had rights and respect based on Hitler personal physician being half Jewish. It just doesn't work.

#373
KnightofPhoenix

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Hukari wrote...
And you forget. As the Warden noble was cast out of Orzammar, he is now casteless, thus his son is as well. The adoption -was of a casteless child-. That, at the least, is -highly- indicative of social mobility via adoption. And remember, Harrowmont -does- want to reform the system; again, Bhelen's blocking of the motion via insurrection, and his petty childishness caused an occupation in his Kingship that prevented any sort of action.



He did that in exchange for politcal support and you have to ask for it.

You think any noble turned casteless would have have been given the same right?
So the only way for social mnobility is for a noble male to father a child, and then become a casteless, but his son might become a noble. That's social mobility?

A casteless fathering a male child is a casteless. They only didn't do this to the DN because A: he was an ex-noble (an Aeducan). B- you are giving invaluable political support.

So yes, it's not indicative.

Hukari wrote...
And before bringing up the golem situation, consider what the golems imply; it's an inherently wicked process, trapping one behind a body of stone and iron. And they were -still- used to crush Bhelen's rebellion, so the issue comes to his pettiness once again. The mere fact that he needed them lies squarely on the upstart Prince's shoulders.



Oh, was using golems on the casteless in Dust Town also Bhelen's fault?
That's news.

Bhelen has rebellions in Harrowmont's name too except he deals with them so effectively that he doesnt' need golems.

Hukari wrote...
 And again, you fail to take into account the Paragon; I.E. the single most important person that is -in- that story.



A person that Bhelen can declare war at and no one cares. So no, they are not god like.

Hukari wrote...
By the by, it's Kal Sharok. Kal'Hirol was the thaig taken by House Helmi, entirely of their will, no matter who the King is. So Orzammar can, apparently, still function with King Harrowmont. Funny, that.


But with more caste restrictions, no surface trade and the casteless not being harnesed as manpower. Just brilliant. I am amazed.

Now I wonder how Helmi is going to hold that Thaig that is miles away from Orzammar, if they can't be bothered to harness Orzammar's manpower to its fullest potential nor open up to trade to the surface.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2011 - 02:18 .


#374
Hukari

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Apparently, they hold it rather well, enough to have banquets at the least. So yes, even without golems or a casteless army, -one- noble house managed to retake an absolutely massive thaig infested with Darkspawn. And again, the point with the golems is that they are un-necessary in any rational political system: Harrowmont would be named king, and Bhelen step down as Harrowmont did.



But no, he could not give up his coveted toy, and his childish supporters could neither. Who is the better man: One that tries a hopelessly outnumbered coup that is tantamount to suicide, all in the sake of throwing a tantrum, or one who does what is best for his people and graciously steps down? Both lead to the same thing, but one spares a great deal of bloodshed.



I think that, above all else, highlights the character of Bhelen vs. Harrowmont. Do you want a child playing at politics, or a statesman?

#375
Giggles_Manically

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A statesmen who supports a bigoted failing system beyond reason and who would rather see Orzamar die then change a single oh so vital tradition?