574 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

[quote]Hukari wrote...

Apparently, they hold it rather well, enough to have banquets at the least. So yes, even without golems or a casteless army, -one- noble house managed to retake an absolutely massive thaig infested with Darkspawn. And again, the point with the golems is that they are un-necessary in any rational political system: Harrowmont would be named king, and Bhelen step down as Harrowmont did.[/quote]

Yes because nobles so do not hold banquets and feasts when everything is collapsing around them. <_<

And the Thaig was cleared of Darkspawn by the Warden. We kill three broodmothers there, remember?

Fact is, Orzammmar's lifeline is surface trade.
Fact is, Orzammar is losing its manpower and the casteless are not being harnessed for that purpose.

Fact is, Harrowmont is cutting off surface trade and making the situation for casteless worse
Fact is, Bhelen is doing the opposite.

It really doesn't take a genius.

[quote]Hukari wrote...

But no, he could not give up his coveted toy, and his childish supporters could neither. Who is the better man: One that tries a hopelessly outnumbered coup that is tantamount to suicide, all in the sake of throwing a tantrum, or one who does what is best for his people and graciously steps down? Both lead to the same thing, but one spares a great deal of bloodshed.[/quote]

Actually, seeing how Harrowmont needed golems to defeat Bhelen, the only thing that made his coup a failure is that the Warden was there. If he wasn't, Bhelen would have either won the vote, because Harrowmont would have been humiliated in the Provings and lost at least 2 major Houses. Or Bhelen would have succesfully mounted a coup d'etat that Harrwomont cannot deal with.

I think that, above all else, highlights the character of Bhelen vs. Harrowmont. Do you want a child playing at politics, or a statesman?[/quote]

Harrowmont's policies show him as the child who not only preserves a disfuncftional status quo, but makes it worse.
Vs Bhelen, who does all the right policies that are necessary.

So between a weak and inefficient politician who can only compromise, and a strong aggressive cunning leader who knows what Orzammar needs, I'll pick the latter thank you.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2011 - 02:28 .

[Sarah1281]

And now we appear to be back to 'If someone is a good person, they will be a good ruler.'

[Hukari]

And when, pray tell, does he say that? Or are you inferring it?



If I may be so bold as to state, does that mean every president before Lyndon B. Johnson is automatically a racist? Or that any president before 1900 automatically hates women? It's a ludicrous claim, really. Harrowmont wants Orzammar to live, to retain their traditions, but there to be freedom as well. He says he wants some changes, and as mentioned above, it was Bhelen's supporters blocking him that prevented it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And now we appear to be back to 'If someone is a good person, they will be a good ruler.'

Don't we always?
Doesn't that end up being the last recluse of every Harrowmont supporter?
That tyranny is oh so evil and that virtue is so vital in a succesful political career?

[Sarah1281]

He says he wants some changes, and as mentioned above, it was Bhelen's supporters blocking him that prevented it.

Okay, I get that you never preserve the Anvil (at least when Harrowmont is King). Can you please accept that we're metagaming and thus know what the result of Harrowmont + Anvil is? The result is Harrowmont having the full backing of the Assembly. The result is Harrowmont increasing caste restrictions, destroying Dust Town, passing a series of laws to please the Assembly, increasing noble powers, and increasing isolation.



Please tell me what changes you think Harrowmont wants to make that, when he crushed Bhelen's rebellion and was in a position to make those changes a reality, he somehow felt unable to implement?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hukari wrote...
Harrowmont wants Orzammar to live, to retain their traditions, but there to be freedom as well.

What freedom? Where?
I don't see less caste restrictions. I don't see the Assembly being expanded in its representation. I don't see the casteless being given any rights, quite the contrary.

Hukari wrote...
He says he wants some changes, and as mentioned above, it was Bhelen's supporters blocking him that prevented it.

For the last time. If you have golems, Harrowmont destroys the rebellion and then he has enough strength to do what he wants and what he wants is the exact opposite of gradual change.

Don't try to pit this on Bhelen, it's a fail argument. Harrowmont with golems proves himself that he is not for gradual change, but for regression. And your beloved Assembly was with him.

[Hukari]

Ah, and we come roundabout. Bhelen wasn't strong; if he was, he would have had the Kingship already. As much as he did not think so, he -needed- the Warden to deal with the Carta. He -needed- the Warden to find Branka. And he -needed- us to fight in the Provings. Without it, neither side would have gained those advantages, and there would have been all-out civil war.

And there are other 'facts' you are missing.

Fact is, Orzammar can get outside aid without trade.
Fact is, Bhelen is alienating his military and other nobles.
Fact is, Bhelen -will- die eventually, whether by assassin or the slow decay of time, and he single-handedly dissolved the only system the Dwarves have in place for instituting a new ruler.

Harrowmont makes none of these blunders. Even when he isolates himself, he still accepts aid from Ferelden that lets the Dwarves retake lost thaigs and get things moving against. So you see, he did not need Bhelen, the golems, or the casteless at all.

Edit: And, I think, we've come full circle. The Bhelen supporters think they're superior in knowing that they MADE TEH HARD CHOIZE, sacrificing liberty for prosperity. The Harrowmont supporters know they've ensured Orzammar a future bereft of a dictator, at a small price. We all go back to yelling platitudes at each other, and nobody listens. Welcome to the Internet.

Second Edit: As to the casteless of Dust Town, they joined in in regards to open rebellion, did they not? With the golems, and the passage of the new laws to compromise, they rebel. What did they -think- was going to happen? Hugs and sunshine? The rule of law is something to be respected, and changed within the system. Lord Helmi is a good example.

Modifié par Hukari, 11 janvier 2011 - 02:37 .

[Sarah1281]

Ah, and we come roundabout. Bhelen wasn't strong; if he was, he would have had the Kingship already.

It was only three weeks and most of Harrowmont's support came from Harrowmont's claim that Endrin really supported him and the fact everyone knew Endrin wouldn't see Bhelen when he was dying plus the fact that the Aeducans had been in power for so long people jumped at the chance to put a new, weak house in power so they could have a chance for the throne when he died.

As much as he did not think so, he -needed- the Warden to deal with the Carta.

Only because he needed his own men to deal with the election. Had the carta just not been dealt with at all, Bhelen could have easily handled it once he was king.

He -needed- the Warden to find Branka.

Okay, this is blatantly untrue. It is not a sign of weakness that Bhelen was not willing to go hunt her down himself. Bhelen knew that if Branka showed up to support him that he would win on the spot. It would get things moving faster. How is not pointlessly turning down an automatic victory a sign of weakness?

And he -needed- us to fight in the Provings.

That is even less true. Bhelen doesn't ask you to fight in the Provings. Harrowmont does. Bhelen has got in under control. Baizyl and Gwiddon won't fight and even if they do, Piotin Aeducan wins the Proving...unless you enter.

Fact is, Orzammar can get outside aid without trade.

...How?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hukari wrote...
Ah, and we come roundabout. Bhelen wasn't strong; if he was, he would have had the Kingship already. As much as he did not think so, he -needed- the Warden to deal with the Carta. He -needed- the Warden to find Branka. And he -needed- us to fight in the Provings. Without it, neither side would have gained those advantages, and there would have been all-out civil war.

He doesn't even ask you to fight in the Prvings. No, he doesn't need you at all.
He needed the Warden for a quick victory, but from what we see, he was on the offense and HArrowmotn was getting stepped on hard.

Hukari wrote...
Fact is, Orzammar can get outside aid without trade.

Oh, so become a rentier state dependent on foreign aid. Brilliant.
Except isolationism doesn't seem to be achieving that. Rentierism is given in exchange for something, like opening up markets. Something clearly not happening.

Unless you mean military aid. Yea, but with no ressources coming in, I wonder how long will it take for the surface to stop giving a damn.

Hukari wrote...
Fact is, Bhelen is alienating his military and other nobles.

No, some of them.
He has enough warriors and the casteless on his sides that this is not significant. The most they can do is attempt to assassinate. And they fail.

Hukari wrote...
Fact is, Bhelen -will- die eventually, whether by assassin or the slow decay of time, and he single-handedly dissolved the only system the Dwarves have in place for instituting a new ruler.

Yes, because a sole authoritarian system can't establish a new form of succession. That's not an issue, Bhelen can insure his succession and build a dynasty.

And that's assumign that he wants to keep the Assembly dissolved forever, which we do not know.

And taking thaigs =/- holding them.
Who has a better chance. Bhelen who has ressources to fund his armies via trade, more manpower via casteless. Or Harrowmont who is regressing into isolation and not using his manpower effectively.

The answer is obvious.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hukari wrote...
Second Edit: As to the casteless of Dust Town, they joined in in regards to open rebellion, did they not? With the golems, and the passage of the new laws to compromise, they rebel. What did they -think- was going to happen? Hugs and sunshine? The rule of law is something to be respected, and changed within the system. Lord Helmi is a good example.

You mean the person who is considered the joke of the Assembly?

And you blame the casteless for rioting for being forbidden to go outside of Dust Town by HArrowmont (and this has nothing to do with Bhelen)? And say it's the rule of Law?
And then complain about tyranny and the loss of liberty?

....Ooookkk. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2011 - 02:43 .

[Hukari]

To the latter, you can request it from Queen Anora. Ferelden, once united after the Blight, is more than happy to send aid to Orzammar. And perhaps you are correct on the Provings; I admit, I've only played Bhelen once (In, admittedly, my 'utter ****' character). And he did need the political boost from defeating the carta to be able to match Harrowmont, which is why he sends you off to find Branka. The issue is that there would have been civil war without Warden intervention on either side. There even is, anyways.

Edit: Ah, just saw yours, KoP. I am a supporter for liberty. You all seem to forget that the plan is: Harrowmont weakens the Kingship, DN Paragon redirects towards reformist platform. Easy, simple, and done. What is put on the books, especially something so recent, can be repealed, especially with the weight of what amounts as a cultural diety behind it.

Second Edit: Ah, seems food has just arrived! Gonna pop off for dinner, but I shall try and be back later. You all have a pleasant evening, hm?

Modifié par Hukari, 11 janvier 2011 - 02:45 .

[Eber]

Hukari wrote...

And there are other 'facts' you are missing.

Fact is, Orzammar can get outside aid without trade.
Fact is, Bhelen is alienating his military and other nobles.
Fact is, Bhelen -will- die eventually, whether by assassin or the slow decay of time, and he single-handedly dissolved the only system the Dwarves have in place for instituting a new ruler.

Harrowmont makes none of these blunders. Even when he isolates himself, he still accepts aid from Ferelden that lets the Dwarves retake lost thaigs and get things moving against. So you see, he did not need Bhelen, the golems, or the casteless at all.

Bhelen is alienating some warriors by allowing the casteless to pick up their trade. Clearly a good thing, not a blunder.

I would say the same about limiting the nobles political power but apparantly that is controversial.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hukari wrote...
Edit: Ah, just saw yours, KoP. I am a supporter for liberty. You all seem to forget that the plan is: Harrowmont weakens the Kingship, DN Paragon redirects towards reformist platform. Easy, simple, and done. What is put on the books, especially something so recent, can be repealed, especially with the weight of what amounts as a cultural diety behind it.

So you are picking Harrowmont for being a weakling incompetant mess. Ok, if you put it that way.

I am not saying your choice was stupid, because at least you are relying on your Warden doing somethign about Harrowmont's failure, and not on his apparent political genius. Taht's fine.

Still doesn't mean tha Harrowmont is better than Bhelen as a ruler. Just more favorable to your goals.

And bon appetit!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2011 - 02:49 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I am sure that most warriors will come around to the idea of casteless warriors:



Hey guess what... we dont die as often and we can actually do sorties against the spawn!

[Sarah1281]

Edit: And, I think, we've come full circle. The Bhelen supporters think they're superior in knowing that they MADE TEH HARD CHOIZE, sacrificing liberty for prosperity. The Harrowmont supporters know they've ensured Orzammar a future bereft of a dictator, at a small price. We all go back to yelling platitudes at each other, and nobody listens. Welcome to the Internet.

I don't feel that I've sacrificed liberty for prosperity. So the nobles have the Assembly shut down for a few years after they won't stop ****ing up Orzammar and attempting to assassinate their king. That is really not a difficult choice for me.



The Harrowmont supporters have no guarantee of who Harrowmont's successor will be. At all. He may be a far worse and less beneficial dictator than Bhelen ever was.

To the latter, you can request it from Queen Anora. Ferelden, once united after the Blight, is more than happy to send aid to Orzammar. And perhaps you are correct on the Provings; I admit, I've only played Bhelen once (In, admittedly, my 'utter ****' character). And he did need the political boost from defeating the carta to be able to match Harrowmont, which is why he sends you off to find Branka.

Okay, if Bhelen is the king then this boon gets the Darkspawn pushed back to the Ortan Thaig, I believe. If Harrowmont is the king, he won't let them in and they hand out medical supplies.



You're kidding, right? Bhelen needs a boost? Both sides are dead even at the start. Yes, if you fight the Provings for Harrowmont, things are slightly in his favor and maybe he would need a boost but if you talk to the Steward of the Assembly throughout the quest you can see that Bhelen really shows himself stronger than Harrowmont.



Before you do anything: At this point, they're stone for stone. I wouldn't put any coin on the outcome.

After fighting in Proving for Harrowmont: Bhelen still has the edge, but after the latest Proving Harrowmont picked up a few more supporters.

Talked to Dace: Well, Harrowmont has many loyal supporters, but the whole Dace House just turned against him.

Talked to Helmi: Well, Harrowmont's still holding his main supporters, but the whole Helmi House just turned against him.

Did carta for Harrowmont: Bhelen's gained ground recently, but Harrowmont's recent announcements caused a real flurry. He's back in the running.

Did carta for Bhelen: Harrowmont started to pull ahead, but Bhelen got a huge surge of support when he announced Jarvia's death.

You all seem to forget that the plan is: Harrowmont weakens the Kingship,

He does not weaken the throne forever. He is just one weak king.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Isn't the restrictions on the casteless only loosened by Behlen if you destroy the anvil? IIRC he loosens the restrictions on the casteless to get more soldiers, but with the anvil he won't have to as he can just make them into Golems.

[KnightofPhoenix]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Isn't the restrictions on the casteless only loosened by Behlen if you destroy the anvil? IIRC he loosens the restrictions on the casteless to get more soldiers, but with the anvil he won't have to as he can just make them into Golems.

No, he loosens it with or without anvil.

[Graspiloot]

I would like for Hukari to respond to the fact that Harrowmont doesn't change anything when he has the golems, and is not blocked by Bhelens supporters.

This disproves one of your most important arguments, that he wants change but not in the pace and extremity as Bhelen, but that Bhelen is blocking him. This is just untrue. Clear and simple, metagaming will prove it.

Also Orzammar doesn't get aid from outside world with Harrowmont because he won't let the troops in.

[testing123]

 Haha, this thread kind of exploded.  I figured that meant a bunch of people got pissed off, you guys did not disappoint. =P

[LobselVith8]

Hukari wrote...

To the latter, you can request it from Queen Anora. Ferelden, once united after the Blight, is more than happy to send aid to Orzammar. And perhaps you are correct on the Provings; I admit, I've only played Bhelen once (In, admittedly, my 'utter ****' character). And he did need the political boost from defeating the carta to be able to match Harrowmont, which is why he sends you off to find Branka. The issue is that there would have been civil war without Warden intervention on either side. There even is, anyways.

Except if Harrowmont is elected King, he isolates Orzammar from the surface, so the dwarven boon means nothing.

Hukari wrote...



Edit: Ah, just saw yours, KoP. I am a supporter for liberty. You all seem to forget that the plan is: Harrowmont weakens the Kingship, DN Paragon redirects towards reformist platform. Easy, simple, and done. What is put on the books, especially something so recent, can be repealed, especially with the weight of what amounts as a cultural diety behind it.

You're assuming that everyone is going to fall in line with the Dwarven Paragon, who has a limited number of years to live (30 at the most) because of the taint and can only do so much in that time frame. Given that you selected Harrowmont to be the ruler, Bhelen's supporters are still alive, and Orzammar is in ruins, why would the people unanimously elect you to be the new ruler when your decision has brought Orzammar nothing but ruin?

[Hukari]

Back for just a quick sec, just had to get prepared to go out. Anyhow, to the issue that nothing changes even with the golems, we don't really see anything else post Dust Town riots. It's a matter of timeframe, really.



To the Orzammar aid thing, they still take material, medical, and war goods, which lets them take the haigs. As to whether they keep it, the fact that months later Helmi can launch the expeditin to Kal'Hirol shows that they're not only keeping, but still gaining ground. Anyhow, going to wish you all a good night; I'll be back in a few hours. Nice debates, if a bit... heated, hm?

[Giggles_Manically]

What would be interesting to see is that Orzamar slowly fell and that Helmi starts a new city in Kal-Hirol.

[Sarah1281]

As to whether they keep it, the fact that months later Helmi can launch the expeditin to Kal'Hirol shows that they're not only keeping, but still gaining ground.

But they obviously are far less successful than Bhelen is because he allows not just material goods and aid but physical aid when the humans push back the darkspawn. It's just common sense that having troops + other aid will be more useful than just other aid.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

As to whether they keep it, the fact that months later Helmi can launch the expeditin to Kal'Hirol shows that they're not only keeping, but still gaining ground.

But they obviously are far less successful than Bhelen is because he allows not just material goods and aid but physical aid when the humans push back the darkspawn. It's just common sense that having troops + other aid will be more useful than just other aid.

Unless you have Harrowmont!

His goodness shines out his bum and incinerates the darkspawn! Fear the decent man forces of evil here comes Harrowmont! 

[LobselVith8]

Hukari wrote...

 As to whether they keep it, the fact that months later Helmi can launch the expeditin to Kal'Hirol shows that they're not only keeping, but still gaining ground. Anyhow, going to wish you all a good night; I'll be back in a few hours. Nice debates, if a bit... heated, hm?

You're confusing the actions committed by one House with Orzammar and its King. Kal'Hirol was claimed by a House that wanted it reclaimed after its discovered and cleared out by the Warden-Commander, not because Harrowmont spent any time or energy in reclaiming it.