574 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

As to whether they keep it, the fact that months later Helmi can launch the expeditin to Kal'Hirol shows that they're not only keeping, but still gaining ground.

But they obviously are far less successful than Bhelen is because he allows not just material goods and aid but physical aid when the humans push back the darkspawn. It's just common sense that having troops + other aid will be more useful than just other aid.

Unless you have Harrowmont!

His goodness shines out his bum and incinerates the darkspawn! Fear the decent man forces of evil here comes Harrowmont! 

...Harrowmont is the dwarven Wynne? 

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

As to whether they keep it, the fact that months later Helmi can launch the expeditin to Kal'Hirol shows that they're not only keeping, but still gaining ground.

But they obviously are far less successful than Bhelen is because he allows not just material goods and aid but physical aid when the humans push back the darkspawn. It's just common sense that having troops + other aid will be more useful than just other aid.

Unless you have Harrowmont!

His goodness shines out his bum and incinerates the darkspawn! Fear the decent man forces of evil here comes Harrowmont! 

...Harrowmont is the dwarven Wynne? 

Sarah has solved the mystery!

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

I would like for Hukari to respond to the fact that Harrowmont doesn't change anything when he has the golems, and is not blocked by Bhelens supporters.
This disproves one of your most important arguments, that he wants change but not in the pace and extremity as Bhelen, but that Bhelen is blocking him. This is just untrue. Clear and simple, metagaming will prove it.
Also Orzammar doesn't get aid from outside world with Harrowmont because he won't let the troops in.

If I may, I shall respond: I agree. Saving the Anvil seems to worsen the possible rule for both Harrowmont and Bhelen, as power does appear to corrupt. But I do not believe Harrowmont is an extremist; just tends to work with the current Assembly in the same way he always has.

As far as barring the surface aid, this also seems to have Assembly support as well as opposition from the crown. Again, reform is needed. Where I tend to differ is in how change and reform should occur, as I oppose the ways of Bhelen: murder, lies, cheating, etc; prefer a more long term approach as in changing hearts, minds, and methods.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan,



Reform is often written in blood. If you really want to reform Orzammar, then King Bhelen is your choice. Otherwise you doom Orzammar so you can sleep at night which IMHO is not a good trade.



Besides, as I said before, to me the choice is clear:



Bhelen promises that he will honor your treaty and get you troops.



Harrowmount promises to ask the Assembly pretty please.



For a Grey Warden, IMHO, it's not a difficult choice. Morality comes second to defeating the darkspawn.



-Polaris

[testing123]

IanPolaris wrote...

Elhanan,

Reform is often written in blood. If you really want to reform Orzammar, then King Bhelen is your choice. Otherwise you doom Orzammar so you can sleep at night which IMHO is not a good trade.

Besides, as I said before, to me the choice is clear:

Bhelen promises that he will honor your treaty and get you troops.

Harrowmount promises to ask the Assembly pretty please.

For a Grey Warden, IMHO, it's not a difficult choice. Morality comes second to defeating the darkspawn.

-Polaris

Does the fact that you've removed morality from the equation help you to 'sleep at night'?  You've made your reasons for supporting Bhelen quite clear, but your reasons are not representative of the mindset of every warden that has ever existed.  The warden is not required to support Bhelen to get troops, you get your army either way.  Harrowmont's phrasing signifies his weakness, nothing more.    

Honestly, I just don't understand why you keep throwing your own personal reasons at a brick wall that has already thought out his decision  A LOT and will quite clearly never change his opinion.  At some point, you just have to let it be.

[IanPolaris]

jvee wrote...
Does the fact that you've removed morality from the equation help you to 'sleep at night'?  You've made your reasons for supporting Bhelen quite clear, but your reasons are not representative of the mindset of every warden that has ever existed.  The warden is not required to support Bhelen to get troops, you get your army either way.  Harrowmont's phrasing signifies his weakness, nothing more.    

Nope.  I happen to think picking Bhelen is the moral decision as well, but others have argued that point quite well I think.  What I am reminding everyone is the Grey Warden oath itself and the fact that nothing comes before defeating the darkspawn if you are true to that oath.  Nothing.

Honestly, I just don't understand why you keep throwing your own personal reasons at a brick wall that has already thought out his decision  A LOT and will quite clearly never change his opinion.  At some point, you just have to let it be.

Because he keeps throwing his personal opinions in the stew everytime this topic comes up perhaps?  It only takes one not to "let it be".

-Polaris

[testing123]

IanPolaris wrote...
Nope.  I happen to think picking Bhelen is the moral decision as well, but others have argued that point quite well I think.  What I am reminding everyone is the Grey Warden oath itself and the fact that nothing comes before defeating the darkspawn if you are true to that oath.  Nothing.

I didn't need Bhelen to defeat the Blight.  The Warden oath does not require me to support a particular candidate.  But I don't feel the need to debate the point with you.  I know why you chose what you did, and I have no qualms with your logic.  This topic is full enough without me adding my own stale views to the argument.

Because he keeps throwing his personal opinions in the stew everytime this topic comes up perhaps?  It only takes one not to "let it be".

-Polaris

And you don't want to be that 'one' I take it?  Fair enough, as long as you enjoy throwing yourself at a brick wall, God bless you.  Enjoy.

Modifié par jvee, 11 janvier 2011 - 08:30 .

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Elhanan,

Reform is often written in blood. If you really want to reform Orzammar, then King Bhelen is your choice. Otherwise you doom Orzammar so you can sleep at night which IMHO is not a good trade.

Besides, as I said before, to me the choice is clear:

Bhelen promises that he will honor your treaty and get you troops.

Harrowmount promises to ask the Assembly pretty please.

For a Grey Warden, IMHO, it's not a difficult choice. Morality comes second to defeating the darkspawn.

-Polaris

No; for you morality comes second, as I as a Warden do not abandon it, and still defeat the Blight.

Bhelen may promise to honor your treaty, but it appears to get such a promise you must brush away two fairly clear pieces of deception by him and Gavorn. After this, I would have little reason to believe anything coming from Bhelen's camp.

And Harrowmont simply speaks the truth; he must ask the Assembly which comes through as hoped.

You accept the word of a kinslayer, and I choose not to believe any more lies coming from his camp. Harrowmont for the throne, Blight defeated, and often a new House for proper reform.

[IanPolaris]

jvee wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Nope.  I happen to think picking Bhelen is the moral decision as well, but others have argued that point quite well I think.  What I am reminding everyone is the Grey Warden oath itself and the fact that nothing comes before defeating the darkspawn if you are true to that oath.  Nothing.

I didn't need Bhelen to defeat the Blight.  The Warden oath does not require me to support a particular candidate.  But I don't feel the need to debate the point with you.  I know why you chose what you did, and I have no qualms with your logic.  This topic is full enough without me adding my own stale views to the argument.

I am going to penalize you 15 yards for metagaming.  You have no idea until those troops actually show up that King Harrowmount actually gets the Assembly to give you the troops.  Given a sure thing and a pretty please, I'd say it's pretty clear that the Grey Warden Oath does require you to pick Bhelen...or at least should strongly nudge you that way.  What's more, Bhelen provides more troops since he is openly willing to recruit casteless and Harrowmount isn't (and that is established before you have to pick as well).  The fifty dwarves you get in the endgame are only a small fraction of what is actually sent of course.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Elhanan,

Reform is often written in blood. If you really want to reform Orzammar, then King Bhelen is your choice. Otherwise you doom Orzammar so you can sleep at night which IMHO is not a good trade.

Besides, as I said before, to me the choice is clear:

Bhelen promises that he will honor your treaty and get you troops.

Harrowmount promises to ask the Assembly pretty please.

For a Grey Warden, IMHO, it's not a difficult choice. Morality comes second to defeating the darkspawn.

-Polaris

No; for you morality comes second, as I as a Warden do not abandon it, and still defeat the Blight.

Bhelen may promise to honor your treaty, but it appears to get such a promise you must brush away two fairly clear pieces of deception by him and Gavorn. After this, I would have little reason to believe anything coming from Bhelen's camp.

And Harrowmont simply speaks the truth; he must ask the Assembly which comes through as hoped.

You accept the word of a kinslayer, and I choose not to believe any more lies coming from his camp. Harrowmont for the throne, Blight defeated, and often a new House for proper reform.

You say that Bhelen is less trustworthy than Harrowmount.  Evidence for this would be nice.  I note that it's VG not Bhelen that asks you to deliver (apparently) forged documents.

Frankly given the reality of dwarven politics both have certainly lied and will again if it serves their best interests, and King Endrin himself (who Harrowmount gleefully supported and supposedly still supports) is a kinslayer as well.  I'd be suprised if there were many dwarven deshyrs that weren't kinslayers or the like honestly.

Given all that, the choice is clear.

-Polaris

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

I am going to penalize you 15 yards for metagaming.  You have no idea until those troops actually show up that King Harrowmount actually gets the Assembly to give you the troops.  Given a sure thing and a pretty please, I'd say it's pretty clear that the Grey Warden Oath does require you to pick Bhelen...or at least should strongly nudge you that way.  What's more, Bhelen provides more troops since he is openly willing to recruit casteless and Harrowmount isn't (and that is established before you have to pick as well).  The fifty dwarves you get in the endgame are only a small fraction of what is actually sent of course.

-Polaris

*whistle* Ball reset at original Line of Scrimmage! *regains flag*

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

You say that Bhelen is less trustworthy than Harrowmount.  Evidence for this would be nice.  I note that it's VG not Bhelen that asks you to deliver (apparently) forged documents.

Gavorns forged papers, Gavorn's forged documents. papers discovered in the Carta hideout, Enderin's letter to his son, etc. My Wardens tend to view such evidence as condemning; not overlook it altogether and place hope in the kinslayer, liar, and cheat.

Frankly given the reality of dwarven politics both have certainly lied and will again if it serves their best interests, and King Endrin himself (who Harrowmount gleefully supported and supposedly still supports) is a kinslayer as well.  I'd be suprised if there were many dwarven deshyrs that weren't kinslayers or the like honestly.

Given all that, the choice is clear.-Polaris

It does seem that way, to those that keep their eyes open at least.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I am going to penalize you 15 yards for metagaming.  You have no idea until those troops actually show up that King Harrowmount actually gets the Assembly to give you the troops.  Given a sure thing and a pretty please, I'd say it's pretty clear that the Grey Warden Oath does require you to pick Bhelen...or at least should strongly nudge you that way.  What's more, Bhelen provides more troops since he is openly willing to recruit casteless and Harrowmount isn't (and that is established before you have to pick as well).  The fifty dwarves you get in the endgame are only a small fraction of what is actually sent of course.

-Polaris

*whistle* Ball reset at original Line of Scrimmage! *regains flag*

Sorry nope.  Penalty is upheld on further review.  The promise from Bhelen is a sure thing.  The promise from Harrowmount is not.  There is no quibbling about that.  As for their intinsic honestly, it's a wash.  Neither are honest.

As for the papers you say are in Jarvia's HQ, you only find them if Harrowmount asks you to look for them (raises suspicions to me at least).  They aren't there if you don't ask about them (by double crossing Bhelen).  As for VG's forged papers:

1.  It's not entirely clear they are forged.  You are taking the Shaper's word on that, and there is at least some reason to believe the Shaper has incentive to be less than totally honest about it.  Personally I think they have been altered but it's not the slam dunk you think it is...which leads to point two....

2.  VG asks you to deliever those papers not Bhelen.  In fact there is no evidence that Bhelen knows anything about it (or really cares).  In fact I have yet to see where Bhelen actually lies to the PC anywhere.  Yes, he shades the truth sometimes to the very bone and lets you think a lot of things that sometimes aren't so, but that's a far cry from lying.

-Polaris

[testing123]

IanPolaris wrote...
I am going to penalize you 15 yards for metagaming.  You have no idea until those troops actually show up that King Harrowmount actually gets the Assembly to give you the troops.  Given a sure thing and a pretty please, I'd say it's pretty clear that the Grey Warden Oath does require you to pick Bhelen...or at least should strongly nudge you that way.  What's more, Bhelen provides more troops since he is openly willing to recruit casteless and Harrowmount isn't (and that is established before you have to pick as well).  The fifty dwarves you get in the endgame are only a small fraction of what is actually sent of course.
-Polaris

*Sigh*  This is my last post of the evening on the matter.

It isn't metagaming, it is fact.  Metagaming would mean that I chose Harrowmont because I knew I would get troops either way, the fact is that I CAN defeat the Blight with or without Bhelen.  

In the moment, I don't know if either Harrowmont or Bhelen will come through with troops with absolute certainty.  On the one hand, I have a weakling who wants to put forth a petition to a committee to have the matter discussed, on the other hand I have a cunning politician (read: **** liar) who has already attempted to deceive me and others on multiple occasions in order to manipulate situations more to his liking.  So, I have a weakling I can probably trust and strong douche that I don't.  

I know you have gone through strenuous arguments explaining why you can trust Bhelen in this extremely narrow circumstance; I remain unconvinced.  I believe that Bhelen is a character who will do whatever best suits him personally, it just so happens that what is good for him is also good for Orzammar.  At least for the time being. 

[IanPolaris]

jvee wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I am going to penalize you 15 yards for metagaming.  You have no idea until those troops actually show up that King Harrowmount actually gets the Assembly to give you the troops.  Given a sure thing and a pretty please, I'd say it's pretty clear that the Grey Warden Oath does require you to pick Bhelen...or at least should strongly nudge you that way.  What's more, Bhelen provides more troops since he is openly willing to recruit casteless and Harrowmount isn't (and that is established before you have to pick as well).  The fifty dwarves you get in the endgame are only a small fraction of what is actually sent of course.
-Polaris

*Sigh*  This is my last post of the evening on the matter.

It isn't metagaming, it is fact.  Metagaming would mean that I chose Harrowmont because I knew I would get troops either way, the fact is that I CAN defeat the Blight with or without Bhelen.  

This is what you said:


I didn't need Bhelen to defeat the Blight.

This is classic metagaming.  You don't know that Harrowmount will in fact even ask the Assembly either (since Harrowmount being a successful dwarven politico is by definition less than honest as well).  You do know that Harrmount refuses to give you a firm commitment and Bhelen does.  Thus if you decide against Bhelen because you don't need him, then you are drawing on knowledge you couldn't possibly have IC and thus you are metagaming.

In the moment, I don't know if either Harrowmont or Bhelen will come through with troops with absolute certainty.  On the one hand, I have a weakling who wants to put forth a petition to a committee to have the matter discussed, on the other hand I have a cunning politician (read: **** liar) who has already attempted to deceive me and others on multiple occasions in order to manipulate situations more to his liking.  So, I have a weakling I can probably trust and strong douche that I don't.  

You get a firm commitment from Bhelen who doesn't lie to you (he stretches the truth to the breaking point I admit, but doesn't actually lie to you. VG does, but not Bhelen).  You get no commitment from Harrowmount.  Also given that Harrowmount is weak, can he really be trusted?  4 out of 5 Zevram's say 'not a chance' and Zev knows his politics (since Dwarven and Antivan politics seem to be similiar).

I know you have gone through strenuous arguments explaining why you can trust Bhelen in this extremely narrow circumstance; I remain unconvinced.  I believe that Bhelen is a character who will do whatever best suits him personally, it just so happens that what is good for him is also good for Orzammar.  At least for the time being. 

Defeating the Blight is in Orzammar's best interest and thus in Bhelen's best interests especially if Bhelen can arrange for his political enemies to do the lion's share of the fighting and dying.  His very strength makes him trustworthy in this regard.  Harrowmount's weakness makes him inherently untrustworthy for the same reasons (too many people will influence a weak Harrowmount to be 'excused' from the war)

-Polaris

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sorry nope.  Penalty is upheld on further review.  The promise from Bhelen is a sure thing.  The promise from Harrowmount is not.  There is no quibbling about that.  As for their intinsic honestly, it's a wash.  Neither are honest.

A sure thing? Not unless one is precognative, or is meta-gaming. Not quibbling; statement for clarification.

As for the papers you say are in Jarvia's HQ, you only find them if Harrowmount asks you to look for them (raises suspicions to me at least).  They aren't there if you don't ask about them (by double crossing Bhelen).  As for VG's forged papers:

But they are there. And while you may be suspicious - a good thing considering Dwarven politics - there is no evidence presented to say these are indeed fake.

1.  It's not entirely clear they are forged.  You are taking the Shaper's word on that, and there is at least some reason to believe the Shaper has incentive to be less than totally honest about it.  Personally I think they have been altered but it's not the slam dunk you think it is...which leads to point two....

Guess you never asked Gavorn, as he admits to it via Skill check. I believe a slam dunk is 2 pts?

2.  VG asks you to deliever those papers not Bhelen.  In fact there is no evidence that Bhelen knows anything about it (or really cares).  In fact I have yet to see where Bhelen actually lies to the PC anywhere.  Yes, he shades the truth sometimes to the very bone and lets you think a lot of things that sometimes aren't so, but that's a far cry from lying.

-Polaris

You are correct when some of my Wardens do not know that Bhelen is involved; some do. However, we all know that his second is playing a crooked game, and there is no reason for most of my Wardens to continue past this point in their underhanded service. Plus we can keep all sets of documents, and could present them to the Assembly if need be. But by that time, Bhelen lies dead on the floor.

Modifié par Elhanan, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:40 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

VG is Behlen's second. That alone is proof that Behlen knew about, or at least can be held responsile for the forged documents.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sorry nope.  Penalty is upheld on further review.  The promise from Bhelen is a sure thing.  The promise from Harrowmount is not.  There is no quibbling about that.  As for their intinsic honestly, it's a wash.  Neither are honest.

A sure thing? Not unless one is precognative, or is meta-gaming. Not quibbling; statement for clarification.

Oh please.  You obviously never talked to various people outside the noble/warrior castes in the commons then.  The upshot is that all politicos are dirty and that Harrowmount and Bhelen are pretty much par for the course.  Indeed Lord Helmi in Tapsters tends to confirm this as well.  Just being an effective Deshyr (which Lord Helmi is not) requires that you be intrinsically dishonest.  It's how the game it played in Orzammar.

As for the papers you say are in Jarvia's HQ, you only find them if Harrowmount asks you to look for them (raises suspicions to me at least).  They aren't there if you don't ask about them (by double crossing Bhelen).  As for VG's forged papers:

But they are there. And while you may be suspicious - a good thing considering Dwarven politics - there is no evidence presented to say these are indeed fake.

No they are not.  Unless you double-cross Bhelen, those papers you refer to are not present.  This should raise your suspicions immediately.

1.  It's not entirely clear they are forged.  You are taking the Shaper's word on that, and there is at least some reason to believe the Shaper has incentive to be less than totally honest about it.  Personally I think they have been altered but it's not the slam dunk you think it is...which leads to point two....

Guess you never asked Gavorn, as he admits to it via Skill check. I believe a slam dunk is 2 pts?

And you suddenly are taking his word on it now?  The fact is that you hand the papers to those that actually made the deals and all they have to do is talk to each other.  If the papers are indeed forged then 30 minutes of any real investigation (tops) will reveal it.  However, both Lady and Lord Dace seem pretty convinced and Lord Helmi isn't suprised either.  That's evidence against your position....but honestly as I said above, I happen to think there is some funny business going on....

2.  VG asks you to deliever those papers not Bhelen.  In fact there is no evidence that Bhelen knows anything about it (or really cares).  In fact I have yet to see where Bhelen actually lies to the PC anywhere.  Yes, he shades the truth sometimes to the very bone and lets you think a lot of things that sometimes aren't so, but that's a far cry from lying.

-Polaris

You are correct when some of my Wardens do not know that Bhelen is involved; some do. However, we all know that his second is playing a crooked game, and there is no reason for most of my Wardens to continue past this point in their underhanded service. Plus we can keep all sets of documents, and could present them to the Assembly if need be. But by that time, Bhelen lies dead on the floor.

At NO POINT does Bhelen aknowledge that he had any specific knowledge of VG's activities.  In fact you can (and I frequently do) have House GaVorn invfestigated and dishonored and still support Bhelen.  I am sure that Bhelen doesn't mind and doesn't care but that's a FAR CRY from saying that he was involved.

Again, evidence would be nice.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VG is Behlen's second. That alone is proof that Behlen knew about, or at least can be held responsile for the forged documents.

No it's not.  Look up the definition of "plausible deniability" sometime.

All Bhelen has to say is, "I asked him to find dirt on House Helmi and Dace" (a statement that is hardly shocking in dwarven politics) and then he can go on to say, "I am shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you that he engaged in clearly illegal activities and I hope the Shaperate comes down hard on him."

Bhelen seems willing enough to throw VG overboard if need be.  That's how this sort of thing works.

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

If Harrowmont wasn't using bribery, he wouldn't have been open to someone turning the tables on him with forgery...



It's not like Harrowmont wasn't playing dirty politics as well, after all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

On the issue of whether you can trust Bhelen to give you the troops or not. I really see it in this way.

I have a guy that promises to put the matter to an Assembly that has just proven how divisive and undesicive it is and we know that his main  policy towards them is compromise (so if they vote no, it's a no for him), while he can barely secure the loyalty of his own men and champions, who virtually desert him on the streets and withdraw from the fight in the Provings. That same guy is also a traditionalist that doesn't seem particularly interested in the surface anyhow (and as it turns out, he really doesn't care).

Vs a guy who is a cunning politician and yes I believe he can and does lie (better than Harrowmont). However, he promises troops without Assembly approval, you hear the Shaper saying that Bhelen was interested in Bemot who disolved the Assembly during the Blight to command the warriors personally (of course Bhelen doesn't do it just yet), and you see his men fiercely loyal to him. Plus, part of his agenda is an alliance with merchants that can only mean more trade in the surface, so it's not in Bhelen's best interest to let the surface fend for itself. And since Orzammar only has expensive goods and raw materials, a ravaged Ferelden is not in his best interests either. Plus every leader knows that a  good war is a very good way to secure the regime.

So really, it's a question of:
Harrowmont has very little capacity to be true to his word (because of his own weakness and because of the Assembly), even if he is honest (since the game doesn't want to punish that badly, turns out he can).
While Bhelen has all the capacity needed to be true to his word, even if he might be lying (even if it's not in his best interest to just let Ferelden fend for itself).

So what would you bet on? Ability or intent?
What good to me is Harrowmont's word if I see strong hints that he can't be true to it?

A somewhat similar example, to illustrate how I saw the situation in-game.
I have two guys. One doesn't seem rich at all in fact he looks poor, yet he promises to give me a crap load of money that I desperately need after going through some inefficient bureaucracy to do so.
Vs one who is a millionaire and says he would bypass the entire thing and give me the money directly. But he is a shrewd and cunning type of person.

Who would I trust?
Of course the wise thing to do is not to trust either, but in a monent of desperation, I think betting on the cunning millionaire to be less of a risk. Because he at least can clearly be true to his word while the other can't.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2011 - 01:01 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VG is Behlen's second. That alone is proof that Behlen knew about, or at least can be held responsile for the forged documents.

No it's not.  Look up the definition of "plausible deniability" sometime.

All Bhelen has to say is, "I asked him to find dirt on House Helmi and Dace" (a statement that is hardly shocking in dwarven politics) and then he can go on to say, "I am shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you that he engaged in clearly illegal activities and I hope the Shaperate comes down hard on him."

Bhelen seems willing enough to throw VG overboard if need be.  That's how this sort of thing works.

-Polaris

That would be true in our world. In Dwarven society however, you are responsible for your second's acts. A second does not act on his own, and therefore Behlen knows what went down.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VG is Behlen's second. That alone is proof that Behlen knew about, or at least can be held responsile for the forged documents.

How is that proof of anything? Bhelen isn't a telepath, he doesn't necessarily know that one of the people working for him has forged documents. Look at how Howe murdered the Couslands without Loghain knowing anything about it, per DG's explanation.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That would be true in our world. In Dwarven society however, you are responsible for your second's acts. A second does not act on his own, and therefore Behlen knows what went down.

So following this logic, every time he goes to the bathroom, he holds it in and asks for Bhelen's permission to use it, because there's no possible way he can do anything without Bhelen's permission? I'm going to wager that he's capable of doing things without Bhelen having any knowledge about.

[Elhanan]

Except I do not have to judge either candidate on looks, but on the actions within their camps. Bhelen's camp plays the shell game, while Harrowmont's camp asks me to look into existing problems that also stem from (or are connected to) camp Bhelen.

Harrowmont for the throne it is.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Except I do not have to judge either candidate on looks, but on the actions within their camps. Bhelen's camp plays the shell game, while Harrowmont's camp asks me to look into existing problems that also stem from (or are connected to) camp Bhelen.
Harrowmont for the throne it is.

Bhelen and Harrowmont are rivals. Their problem is each other. The situation with the carta is a result of their caste system, and their treatment of the castless, forcing people who are impoverished to turn to crime in order to survive. And Harrowmont's camp supports the bigoted views of the casteless being less than people and isolating Orzammar from the surface, as Harrowmont does if he's selected to be King. The fact that the lives of the men, women, and children in Dust Town improve with Bhelen as King speaks volumes for how he's a different King than Harrowmont, and a better one IMHO.