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[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VG is Behlen's second. That alone is proof that Behlen knew about, or at least can be held responsile for the forged documents.

How is that proof of anything? Bhelen isn't a telepath, he doesn't necessarily know that one of the people working for him has forged documents. Look at how Howe murdered the Couslands without Loghain knowing anything about it, per DG's explanation.

Loghain isn't a dwarf, and Howe certainly isn't his second.

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That would be true in our world. In Dwarven society however, you are responsible for your second's acts. A second does not act on his own, and therefore Behlen knows what went down.

So following this logic, every time he goes to the bathroom, he holds it in and asks for Bhelen's permission to use it, because there's no possible way he can do anything without Bhelen's permission? I'm going to wager that he's capable of doing things without Bhelen having any knowledge about.

::crickets::
... Really? That was a serious counter-point?.... OF COURSE he can go number two all he likes. He can't however go an commit political fraud on a whim, for the simple reason that as Behlen's second. It will be connected to Behlen, wether he ordered it or not. Even if Behlen did not specifically order it, his second is responsible, and thus, by extension, Behlen is too. That is just how Dwarven society works.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Loghain isn't a dwarf, and Howe certainly isn't his second.

And yet, Howe and VG are both capable of doing things outside of the knowledge of the person they are allied to. Claiming otherwise is ridiculous.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
... Really? That was a serious counter-point?.... OF COURSE he can go number two all he likes. He can't however go an commit political fraud on a whim, for the simple reason that as Behlen's second. It will be connected to Behlen, wether he ordered it or not. Even if Behlen did not specifically order it, his second is responsible, and thus, by extension, Behlen is too. That is just how Dwarven society works.

VG is allied to House Aeducan, they aren't responsible for his every action. Revealing to the Shaperate that VG forged those documents doesn't hinder Bhelen at all. And as for a counter-point, do you honestly expect me to seriously tackle a claim that Bhelen must know what VG did because VG is allied to him? That's absolutely absurd. I thought the complete lack of evidence indicating that Bhelen knew anything about it was the point, but you're trying to make the argument that Bhelen knew about it, despite there being no evidence to prove this. Howe murdered the Couslands without Loghain's knowledge, as Gaider revealed. Why assume that VG can't commit fraud without Bhelen's knowledge?

[EmperorSahlertz]

VG isn't just allied to the Aeducans. He is Behlens SECOND. He is an extension of Behlen, so to speak. Seconds aren't just glorified servants, they live and breathe only to help their "masters". Everything VG does can and will be reflected upon Behlen, there is no going around that. Behlen denying any knowledge of what his Second is doing will simply look bad to the assembly. "A man who doesn't know what his second is doing, can't be relied upon to rule Orzammar" would probably be what the Assembly would say.

Matter of fact is that a Dwarven noble's Second, does not just go around doing random acts of fraudery, even if it would help his Lord. As if it were discovered it would be connected to said Lord, and that would be bad. So it is safe to say that when a Second do commit fraudery, it is with the full knowledge of his Lord.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VG isn't just allied to the Aeducans. He is Behlens SECOND. He is an extension of Behlen, so to speak. Seconds aren't just glorified servants, they live and breathe only to help their "masters". Everything VG does can and will be reflected upon Behlen, there is no going around that. Behlen denying any knowledge of what his Second is doing will simply look bad to the assembly. "A man who doesn't know what his second is doing, can't be relied upon to rule Orzammar" would probably be what the Assembly would say.
Matter of fact is that a Dwarven noble's Second, does not just go around doing random acts of fraudery, even if it would help his Lord. As if it were discovered it would be connected to said Lord, and that would be bad. So it is safe to say that when a Second do commit fraudery, it is with the full knowledge of his Lord.

Wrong.  In fact the DN background story proves you are wrong.  It is the second's responsibility to do acts and take the fall so their primary doesn't have to and Dwarven society accepts this.  For example, you can have Gorim in your own DN background do all sorts of ignoble things (including murder) without you directly telling him to do anything.   It's the second's job in part to provide the noble with such plausible deniability.  It's how the game is played.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VG isn't just allied to the Aeducans. He is Behlens SECOND. He is an extension of Behlen, so to speak. Seconds aren't just glorified servants, they live and breathe only to help their "masters". Everything VG does can and will be reflected upon Behlen, there is no going around that. Behlen denying any knowledge of what his Second is doing will simply look bad to the assembly. "A man who doesn't know what his second is doing, can't be relied upon to rule Orzammar" would probably be what the Assembly would say.
Matter of fact is that a Dwarven noble's Second, does not just go around doing random acts of fraudery, even if it would help his Lord. As if it were discovered it would be connected to said Lord, and that would be bad. So it is safe to say that when a Second do commit fraudery, it is with the full knowledge of his Lord.

I miss the crickets already...

Vartag Gavorn already mentioned that he paid people well to keep the documents looking legitiment, and there's nothing to trace the forgeries back to him except the word of an outsider. How would VG making moves to help Bhelen gain allies from Harrowmont (who Harrowmont bribed to support him) reflect badly on him? One of Harrowmont's people was killed in the street simply for talking badly about Bhelen, and there were no reprecussions for this killing. No one here is contending that VG was doing anything but helping Bhelen, but there's absolutely no proof that Bhelen was privy to this scam.

[Graspiloot]

I fail to see how lying to the Warden is such a severe crime that Orzammar must pay for it so heavily.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

VG isn't just allied to the Aeducans. He is Behlens SECOND. He is an extension of Behlen, so to speak. Seconds aren't just glorified servants, they live and breathe only to help their "masters". Everything VG does can and will be reflected upon Behlen, there is no going around that. Behlen denying any knowledge of what his Second is doing will simply look bad to the assembly. "A man who doesn't know what his second is doing, can't be relied upon to rule Orzammar" would probably be what the Assembly would say.
Matter of fact is that a Dwarven noble's Second, does not just go around doing random acts of fraudery, even if it would help his Lord. As if it were discovered it would be connected to said Lord, and that would be bad. So it is safe to say that when a Second do commit fraudery, it is with the full knowledge of his Lord.

I miss the crickets already...

Vartag Gavorn already mentioned that he paid people well to keep the documents looking legitiment, and there's nothing to trace the forgeries back to him except the word of an outsider. How would VG making moves to help Bhelen gain allies from Harrowmont (who Harrowmont bribed to support him) reflect badly on him? One of Harrowmont's people was killed in the street simply for talking badly about Bhelen, and there were no reprecussions for this killing. No one here is contending that VG was doing anything but helping Bhelen, but there's absolutely no proof that Bhelen was privy to this scam.

Indeed.  As I point about above it's the second's JOB to do such dirty work.  In this case, even if it came out that the documents were a forgery, the trial only leads back to VG.  Everyone but the villiage idiot will assume that VG was acting with Bhelen's blessing, but since Bhelen had no personal knowledge, he's in the clear....just as your DN was in the clear for the murder of either the Dwarf Scholar and/or Dwarf Noble upstart in your origin story (just to name one example).  You should find it very interesting that both House Dace and Helmi accept the docs as genuine when less than an hour's worth of any real investigation would turn them up as frauds which either means:

1.  They aren't frauds (but we all are pretty sure they are)

2.  Both parties believe it which means that Lord Harrowmount was using bribery, and both find it highly plausible that Harrowmount would indeed promise the same thing to two different people for short term political gain.  In short VG without Bhelen's explicit knowledge is turning Harrowmount's campaign of bribery against him.  If Harrowmount weren't using a campaign of bribery, this tactic wouldn't have worked.

-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Graspiloot wrote...

I fail to see how lying to the Warden is such a severe crime that Orzammar must pay for it so heavily.

Me neither, but hey, so long as you pick "the good guy" you get to continue feeling warm and full of sunshine. never mind that icky, yucky thing called reality, where people do bad sh*t as a matter of normal operating proceedure.

Lying is unforgiveable, but the downfall of a race is acceptable, because you didn't have to lie to do it.

Different strokes for different folks, so they say.

[Sarah1281]

And Harrowmont simply speaks the truth; he must ask the Assembly which comes through as hoped.

What makes you think this is true? We don't know that King Bhelen ever actually politely asks for troops. Harrowmont puts a lot more stock in the Assembly than Bhelen does and thinks that the king should only be a figurehead. It's perfectly in-character for him to put it before the Assembly regardless of whether he has to or not.

[IanPolaris]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And Harrowmont simply speaks the truth; he must ask the Assembly which comes through as hoped.

What makes you think this is true? We don't know that King Bhelen ever actually politely asks for troops. Harrowmont puts a lot more stock in the Assembly than Bhelen does and thinks that the king should only be a figurehead. It's perfectly in-character for him to put it before the Assembly regardless of whether he has to or not.

Indeed, when you talk to the Shaper he strongly implies  that the king does NOT need permission of the Assembly to grant troops and that under King Bemot during a time of blight, the king took command of the armies and dissolved the Assembly during time of war.  You also learn that Bhelen is most interested in this precedent.

Bottom line:  Like POTUS, the King of Orzammar does (seem) to have the power to grant troops unilaterally at least for a time.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Graspiloot wrote...

I fail to see how lying to the Warden is such a severe crime that Orzammar must pay for it so heavily.

Me neither, but hey, so long as you pick "the good guy" you get to continue feeling warm and full of sunshine. never mind that icky, yucky thing called reality, where people do bad sh*t as a matter of normal operating proceedure.

Lying is unforgiveable, but the downfall of a race is acceptable, because you didn't have to lie to do it.

Different strokes for different folks, so they say.

As the moral extremist would say "let justice be done even should the whole world perish".

And it's people like that, that frighten me.
Thankfully they are also mostly incompetent and very rarely get in a position of power.

[Elhanan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Graspiloot wrote...

I fail to see how lying to the Warden is such a severe crime that Orzammar must pay for it so heavily.

Me neither, but hey, so long as you pick "the good guy" you get to continue feeling warm and full of sunshine. never mind that icky, yucky thing called reality, where people do bad sh*t as a matter of normal operating proceedure.

Lying is unforgiveable, but the downfall of a race is acceptable, because you didn't have to lie to do it.

Different strokes for different folks, so they say.

heh! Guess I never thought of the RL consequenses of doing what I thought was right in a RPG. 

Still, I do get to play the Good Guy, stop the Blight, and remove kinslayers from the game. I must try and see that Butterfly sword sometime, too! 

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Still, I do get to play the Good Guy, stop the Blight, and remove kinslayers from the game. I must try and see that Butterfly sword sometime, too!

I love playing a good guy and removing bigots from the game myself. I'll always enjoy paying a visit to Vaughan in the dungeon...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I love playing a good guy and removing bigots from the game myself. I'll always enjoy paying a visit to Vaughan in the dungeon...

yes, me too. especially when you can lie to him, get him to hand over the key to his goodies, then kill the rat anyway. Takes a bit of roleplay motivation, though, for a non-City Elf.

Somehow, if Harrowmont had a son, I think he would be pretty similar to Vaughn in many aspects. It would have been nice to learn more about Urien.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Somehow, if Harrowmont had a son, I think he would be pretty similar to Vaughn in many aspects. It would have been nice to learn more about Urien.

If Harrowmont has a son, he's shipped to the surface to fight and die by Bhelen

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Somehow, if Harrowmont had a son, I think he would be pretty similar to Vaughn in many aspects. It would have been nice to learn more about Urien.

If Harrowmont has a son, he's shipped to the surface to fight and die by Bhelen

nah! More likely to be an admin of the new Assembly, helpful in bringing peace and reform to all of Orzammar. Plus he gets to stand on the oil spot once known as Bhelen.

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Somehow, if Harrowmont had a son, I think he would be pretty similar to Vaughn in many aspects. It would have been nice to learn more about Urien.

If Harrowmont has a son, he's shipped to the surface to fight and die by Bhelen

nah! More likely to be an admin of the new Assembly, helpful in bringing peace and reform to all of Orzammar. Plus he gets to stand on the oil spot once known as Bhelen.

...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh yea, the lovely Assembly that for millenia had been adamant about reforms and now led by the brilliant Harrowmont junior that exceeds his father's brilliance. Ancestors bless this noble reformist house. Bless them *tears*

[mousestalker]

I'm getting the impression that some people here view the Assembly as the analog of the Old Republic Senate from Star Wars while other view it as the General Sejm of Poland.



Abolishing it in the first instance is evil as it means all the dwarven Jedi die and Bhelen Palpatine becomes Emperor with Darth Gavorn as his second. Abolishing it in the second instance means that Orzammar doesn't get divided by Ferelden, Orlais and the Darkspawn.



I tend to see as closely analogous to the Carthaginian Senate. Which is the body that singlehandedly kept Hannibal from having any chance of ever winning the second Punic War.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Graspiloot wrote...

I fail to see how lying to the Warden is such a severe crime that Orzammar must pay for it so heavily.

Me neither, but hey, so long as you pick "the good guy" you get to continue feeling warm and full of sunshine. never mind that icky, yucky thing called reality, where people do bad sh*t as a matter of normal operating proceedure.

Lying is unforgiveable, but the downfall of a race is acceptable, because you didn't have to lie to do it.

Different strokes for different folks, so they say.

heh! Guess I never thought of the RL consequenses of doing what I thought was right in a RPG. 

Still, I do get to play the Good Guy, stop the Blight, and remove kinslayers from the game. I must try and see that Butterfly sword sometime, too! 

Okay, look: we all know that short of dying in battle there is literally no way you cannot stop the Blight. This does not mean that the future is automatically going to go one certain way and some choices (say, letting Vaughan out of his cage without making him abdicate) will likely point to poor endings for some (in this case, every elf in Denerim).

I don't think your inability to not stop the Blight says anything about Harrowmont. At all. All he does is send troops the Assembly graciously allows him to in accordance with some old treaties.

In my game, I could imagine that Harrowmont dies after a year and Lord Helmi becomes king and issues in a new era of peace and prosperity with everyone becoming completely equal and the deshyrs (who now include members of every caste including the casteless) behind him 100% and they ditch a kingship and get a prime minister. I can say that it's my game and that's what happens in it. That said, that is ridiculously unlikely and it's probably best that, for the purpose of forum discussions, I try to restrict scenarios about the future of Orzammar to the realistic.

I know it's just an RPG but it's like you're not even trying to keep it plausible.

[KnightofPhoenix]

mousestalker wrote...
I tend to see as closely analogous to the Carthaginian Senate. Which is the body that singlehandedly kept Hannibal from having any chance of ever winning the second Punic War.

I see it more like the Roman Senate, except even the Roman Senate did adopt the reforms of the people it killed (like the Gracchi).

The Assembly  is so stubborn and clinging to tradition to the point of blindness that it's actually impressive.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2011 - 06:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

yes, me too. especially when you can lie to him, get him to hand over the key to his goodies, then kill the rat anyway. Takes a bit of roleplay motivation, though, for a non-City Elf.

It's not too difficult for an elven mage, especially one who originally came from the Denerim Alienage (based on dialogue in the Magi Origin and Leliana's inquiry about the alienage). Even if that wasn't the case, when rescuing Soris from the cell and he tells me how Vaughan kidnapped his bride, there's only one response I'd ever provide. I imagine it's the same response that the casteless want to provide to King Harrowmont when his golems crush Dust Town.

[testing123]

IanPolaris wrote...
This is what you said:


I didn't need Bhelen to defeat the Blight.


Thus if you decide against Bhelen because you don't need him, then you are drawing on knowledge you couldn't possibly have IC and thus you are metagaming.

Well at least we have established that you know what metagaming is, apparently you just can't comprehend my posts.  I was never justifying choosing Bhelen or Harrowmont, I was only stating a fact.  I'm sure you'll notice the phrasing of the quote you pulled from me.  'I didn't need,' is a reflection back on a completed game.  It is not a justification of picking Harrowmont in the moment.  When someone argues that Bhelen is a better king because it says x in the epilogue, they are not metagaming.  When they say you must choose Bhelen because it says x in the epilogue, then it's metagaming.  Which is not something I ever said.

You get a firm commitment from Bhelen who doesn't lie to you (he stretches the truth to the breaking point I admit, but doesn't actually lie to you. VG does, but not Bhelen).  You get no commitment from Harrowmount.  Also given that Harrowmount is weak, can he really be trusted?  4 out of 5 Zevram's say 'not a chance' and Zev knows his politics (since Dwarven and Antivan politics seem to be similiar).

So I have a liar who promised me the world and a wet blanket who promised me virtually nothing, who am I more apt to believe?  Bhelen is a liar, if we can't agree on that then there really is no use continuing this discussion.  If Bhelen gives me a firm commitment that once I make him king he will give me a unicorn, while Harrowmont promises me a pony with a stick glued to its head, which should I believe?  

You could argue that it is in both Harrowmont's and Bhelen's best interest to provide you troops and that is worth more than trust in either one of them, and I would agree.  But if it isn't in his self interest to aid you, who do you more expect to back you?  The honor bound weakling or the strong egomaniac?  Blights are virtually the only time that dwarves get a reprieve from constant darkspawn attacks and Orzammar is supposedly dying, I'm not sure I can count on Bhelen recognizing the threat with same urgency a warden might have.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Okay, look: we all know that short of dying in battle there is literally no way you cannot stop the Blight. This does not mean that the future is automatically going to go one certain way and some choices (say, letting Vaughan out of his cage without making him abdicate) will likely point to poor endings for some (in this case, every elf in Denerim).

I don't think your inability to not stop the Blight says anything about Harrowmont. At all. All he does is send troops the Assembly graciously allows him to in accordance with some old treaties.

In my game, I could imagine that Harrowmont dies after a year and Lord Helmi becomes king and issues in a new era of peace and prosperity with everyone becoming completely equal and the deshyrs (who now include members of every caste including the casteless) behind him 100% and they ditch a kingship and get a prime minister. I can say that it's my game and that's what happens in it. That said, that is ridiculously unlikely and it's probably best that, for the purpose of forum discussions, I try to restrict scenarios about the future of Orzammar to the realistic.

I know it's just an RPG but it's like you're not even trying to keep it plausible.

Because you do not hold the same belief that I do: that the Warden/ Paragon could aid Orzammar post-Blight to aid in proper, long term Reforms? Then I guess I shall continue to be implausible in the eyes of all Bhelen supporters. I can live with that.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Somehow, if Harrowmont had a son, I think he would be pretty similar to Vaughn in many aspects. It would have been nice to learn more about Urien.

If Harrowmont has a son, he's shipped to the surface to fight and die by Bhelen

or be one of the first "volunteers" for golemhood.