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[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Okay, look: we all know that short of dying in battle there is literally no way you cannot stop the Blight. This does not mean that the future is automatically going to go one certain way and some choices (say, letting Vaughan out of his cage without making him abdicate) will likely point to poor endings for some (in this case, every elf in Denerim).

I don't think your inability to not stop the Blight says anything about Harrowmont. At all. All he does is send troops the Assembly graciously allows him to in accordance with some old treaties.

In my game, I could imagine that Harrowmont dies after a year and Lord Helmi becomes king and issues in a new era of peace and prosperity with everyone becoming completely equal and the deshyrs (who now include members of every caste including the casteless) behind him 100% and they ditch a kingship and get a prime minister. I can say that it's my game and that's what happens in it. That said, that is ridiculously unlikely and it's probably best that, for the purpose of forum discussions, I try to restrict scenarios about the future of Orzammar to the realistic.

I know it's just an RPG but it's like you're not even trying to keep it plausible.

Because you do not hold the same belief that I do: that the Warden/ Paragon could aid Orzammar post-Blight to aid in proper, long term Reforms? Then I guess I shall continue to be implausible in the eyes of all Bhelen supporters. I can live with that.

The Dwarven Paragon only has 30 or so years to live because of the taint, and has to deal with the Assembly, nobles, and casteless in Orzammar. If Orzammar is in social and economic decline because of your choice to have Harrowmont become King (given the Harrowmont ending where Orzammar is isolated and no attempt is made to retake the old thaigs), and Bhelen's supporters are still alive, why would the Assembly support your bid to become King?

[ejoslin]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Okay, look: we all know that short of dying in battle there is literally no way you cannot stop the Blight. This does not mean that the future is automatically going to go one certain way and some choices (say, letting Vaughan out of his cage without making him abdicate) will likely point to poor endings for some (in this case, every elf in Denerim).

I don't think your inability to not stop the Blight says anything about Harrowmont. At all. All he does is send troops the Assembly graciously allows him to in accordance with some old treaties.

In my game, I could imagine that Harrowmont dies after a year and Lord Helmi becomes king and issues in a new era of peace and prosperity with everyone becoming completely equal and the deshyrs (who now include members of every caste including the casteless) behind him 100% and they ditch a kingship and get a prime minister. I can say that it's my game and that's what happens in it. That said, that is ridiculously unlikely and it's probably best that, for the purpose of forum discussions, I try to restrict scenarios about the future of Orzammar to the realistic.

I know it's just an RPG but it's like you're not even trying to keep it plausible.

Because you do not hold the same belief that I do: that the Warden/ Paragon could aid Orzammar post-Blight to aid in proper, long term Reforms? Then I guess I shall continue to be implausible in the eyes of all Bhelen supporters. I can live with that.

There's no indication that the warden/paragon could do that.  If you take Awakening's epilogues seriously (which I do not, incidentally), that does not happen.  You can't really count on Zevran/Leliana to be your personal bodyguards given their epilogues (which you don't see unless they're in love with you).  I know you don't address that in this post, but I've seen it elsewhere so I thought I'd toss this in there.

Frankly, paragon or no, if what you propose to the assembly is not in their house's best interest, they're going to vote against you.  to get anything done, you're going to have to start sweetening the deal for whomever's support you need.  THAT is dwarven politics.

Edit: Dwarven politics are ugly.  No matter who's in charge, the underlying system is corrupt.  Bhelen changes it -- Harrowmont fights for it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 janvier 2011 - 07:27 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
Because you do not hold the same belief that I do: that the Warden/ Paragon could aid Orzammar post-Blight to aid in proper, long term Reforms? Then I guess I shall continue to be implausible in the eyes of all Bhelen supporters. I can live with that.

Problem is you reject rutheless methods, cunning and deception in an environement of cutthroat politics.

Eh well, I don't expect that much success to be frank.

[Sarah1281]

Because you do not hold the same belief that I do: that the Warden/ Paragon could aid Orzammar post-Blight to aid in proper, long term Reforms? Then I guess I shall continue to be implausible in the eyes of all Bhelen supporters. I can live with that.

The problem is that you really haven't explained your plan in a way that makes it seem at all plausible. From what I remember (and some of it might be wrong), you plan on founding your own house and letting in members of all castes including the casteless that are willing to fight for you. I'm not sure if there is anything anyone in Orzammar can do to try to stop you from letting in every single non-noble if you wanted to but I think realistically there are only so many people you can let in. Letting the casteless join your house appears to be the only way you'll help the casteless in that the few who catch your eye are no longer casteless. This seems to change the fate of the casteless as a whole about as much as noble-hunters becoming technically noble upon the birth of a son does.



You want to use the members of lower castes that join your house and just support you to change the system. Your house has one vote. If you are the dual head of both House DN and House Aeducan (could happen) then that would give you two votes. If you could keep Helmi alive and get him to vote according to his principle's and not those of his mother that's three houses. Three out of eighty-one* will not really get you anywhere. Are you counting on support from other houses? If so, where is the indication that any of them will support you when Helmi's views are so abnormal? Will you count on Bhelen's supporters who all hate you and who have their predecessor dead at your hands during the rebellion? Will you count on Harrowmont supporters who voted with him because they want the throne themselves or because they love the status quo? Do you acknowledge that the nobles in the Assembly are the ones with the political power and that they love the status quo since it's so blatantly in their favor?



Are you going to just hope that the fact that you're a Paragon and that the desperate Assembly, who will even let you pick the ruler yourself if you admit that the Paragon didn't care because they are sick of the stalemate, will let the Paragon cast the tie-breaking vote (and given that they'd be a deshyr, that's the equivalent of giving Harrowmont or Bhelen 41-40) means that Paragons are omnipotent? That nothing you could ever do or say will turn people against you and they will automatically fall in line or commit 'political suicide' even if what you want to do is not even remotely in their best interests?



What about the fact that when Branka wouldn't give Bhelen exclusive golem rights we never hear of any riots when he goes after her? Do you think that if Branka decided to start grabbing people off the streets and forcing them to become golems then the fact that she's a Paragon would mean that everyone would continue to support her and that the deshyrs who tried to stop her would be committing political suicide or is there only so far that the Paragon can push before people stop worshipping them?



Even if your DN became king (and that wouldn't be easy given how much everyone wants to keep the Aeducans off the throne) then Harrowmont proved that the Assembly is still perfectly willing and able to stymie you. Unless you're willing to crack down or dissolve them like the 'dictator' Bhelen does then I honestly don't see how you're going to pull this off.



A complete overhaul of the dwarven system like that on the strength of your being a Paragon when you reject Bhelen's methods highly effective because they are 'immoral' just strikes me as incredibly unrealistic.



*That's another thing I've been wondering about. Are there 80 noble houses in Orzammar currently? Do only the top 80 families get to vote? If you become a Paragon do you get to be a deshyr? If so are there now 81 deshyrs or does the least important house lose their vote?

[mousestalker]

Sarah1281, the number count is even weirder. We're told Branka led her whole house off to the Deep Roads. Did the number then reduce, or is someone voting her proxy? Presumably if you, as Paragon found a new house, you replace hers. But that's only supposition.

[Sarah1281]

I can't see Branka leaving a proxy. For one, she really doesn't care about politics. Two, it would be the perfect excuse to leave Oghren behind. Sure, he's not exactly deshyr material but why should Branka care? I think I'm going to go with 'there just happen to be an even number of deshyrs - eighty - so there can be a tie. Before Branka left there were 81 and when you become a Paragon there will be 81 again.'

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I can't see Branka leaving a proxy. For one, she really doesn't care about politics. Two, it would be the perfect excuse to leave Oghren behind. Sure, he's not exactly deshyr material but why should Branka care? I think I'm going to go with 'there just happen to be an even number of deshyrs - eighty - so there can be a tie. Before Branka left there were 81 and when you become a Paragon there will be 81 again.'

What about Orta of House Ortan?

[Sarah1281]

82 then.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That's another reason then, why paragonhood is a rarity. Imagine granting it to anyone who does something impressive.

[Giggles_Manically]

Plus the nobles would not want to vote one in very easily.

Having some new person outrank them would not make them happy.

[Sarah1281]

I've always thought that the Paragons needed the preferred status as they don't have generations-old alliances and no experience at being a noble if they want to even survive let alone compete.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I think the entire thing is politicized to a large extent. The thing is afterall decided on a vote and I doubt merit is the only factor at play.

A new House in the Assembly afterall, means a new potential ally for some houses. Or an enemy.

[Graspiloot]

Impressive sarah, I would like to see any Harrowmont supporter give a reasonable argument to that.



I think only the top 80 get votes, otherwise the likeliness of exactly 80 families is... low... at best. Especially considering that because it is so unlikely, it would be a bad move from bioware to put it in. As I so fittingly read once in a VTM book: "Reality is often more unlikely than anything we can come up with."

[mousestalker]

There's a slight bit of evidence to support the idea that it's the top 80 of the noble families. Paragon Aeducan's Paragon vote was unanimous except for one. The historian who tells you about it mentions that the lone dissenter was hacked into pieces by the other deshyrs. One really good reason for objecting to someone being made Paragon would be if you are the lowest ranked deshyr. You're being voted out, in essence.

[KnightofPhoenix]

mousestalker wrote...

There's a slight bit of evidence to support the idea that it's the top 80 of the noble families. Paragon Aeducan's Paragon vote was unanimous except for one. The historian who tells you about it mentions that the lone dissenter was hacked into pieces by the other deshyrs. One really good reason for objecting to someone being made Paragon would be if you are the lowest ranked deshyr. You're being voted out, in essence.

Somehow, I personally think it's Aeducan himself who ordered that his opponents be liquidated and in a show of loyalty, the Assembly obliged.

[Sarah1281]

Graspiloot wrote...

Impressive sarah, I would like to see any Harrowmont supporter give a reasonable argument to that.

I think only the top 80 get votes, otherwise the likeliness of exactly 80 families is... low... at best. Especially considering that because it is so unlikely, it would be a bad move from bioware to put it in. As I so fittingly read once in a VTM book: "Reality is often more unlikely than anything we can come up with."

Thanks.

I'm afraid I don't see what's so unrealistic about having exactly 80 noble houses (and that actually seems like a lot but then I'm not from a culture with a nobility so I'm not sure how many noble families other countries have). For the sake of the plot, there needs to be an even number of houses so they can be evenly divided. There could have been 72 houses, 74, 76, 78, or any other even number and it would be just fine. Why is 80 so much more unlikely than any of the other numbers? Because it happens to end in a 0? 

[Eber]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

There's a slight bit of evidence to support the idea that it's the top 80 of the noble families. Paragon Aeducan's Paragon vote was unanimous except for one. The historian who tells you about it mentions that the lone dissenter was hacked into pieces by the other deshyrs. One really good reason for objecting to someone being made Paragon would be if you are the lowest ranked deshyr. You're being voted out, in essence.

Somehow, I personally think it's Aeducan himself who ordered that his opponents be liquidated and in a show of loyalty, the Assembly obliged.

The thing that supports the idea is not the dissenter being executed. It's the dissenter dissenting. Someone was so engaged in this vote that they couldn't stop themselves from pointlessly expressing their view even when there was no hope of changing the outcome. This madness and obsession could be explained by the voters house losing it's place in the Assembly.

[Graspiloot]

Well it depends Sarah, I have actually no idea on how populous Orzammar is. But to give at least some comparison, I read once that even in 1900 when there were around 30M people living in the UK there were even thousands of noble families.

Which can tell you more if you have any idea of the population in Orzammar.



The round number 80 implies the number of deshyrs is fixed, I think it's comparable to the old form of the House of Lords in UK centuries ago. It was really powerful in the time and could easily block decision from weak kings.



The one deshyr who voted against paragon Aeducan might have feared losing his seat, which becomes a reasonable assumption in that case.

[Eber]

.

Modifié par Eber, 13 janvier 2011 - 05:23 .

[BigBad]

80 seems like a reasonable number to me. Some noble houses, such as Dace and Aeducan, are clearly larger than a single immediate family and may have many members of more distant relation to the head of the house, while other noble houses (Ivo, perhaps) may be composed of a single deshyr and his heir. I think it likely that the number is based on the number of noble houses extant in Orzammar. Some have died out over the centuries, and few Paragons are raised up to found new ones, but those that remain have done so through such methods as political alliances, arranged marriages, and taking advantage of noble hunters. If you help Orta, she regains her family's status as noble and takes her place in the Noble Assembly, even without being a Paragon and without having any alliances to speak of, so I find it unlikely that 80 is a fixed number.



As for the Aeducan vote dissenter, it seems likely that it's just one of those things. A political rival, or even a personal rival, who, though outvoted, chooses to express his discontent with Aeducan's rise through his natural right as a deshyr: a dissenting vote. Bhelen does almost the same thing during Harrowmont's crowning as King, though he of course takes it much, much further than lawfully registering his dissension, and has more support from other factions.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The problem is that you really haven't explained your plan in a way that makes it seem at all plausible. From what I remember (and some of it might be wrong), you plan on founding your own house and letting in members of all castes including the casteless that are willing to fight for you. I'm not sure if there is anything anyone in Orzammar can do to try to stop you from letting in every single non-noble if you wanted to but I think realistically there are only so many people you can let in. Letting the casteless join your house appears to be the only way you'll help the casteless in that the few who catch your eye are no longer casteless. This seems to change the fate of the casteless as a whole about as much as noble-hunters becoming technically noble upon the birth of a son does.

You want to use the members of lower castes that join your house and just support you to change the system. Your house has one vote. If you are the dual head of both House DN and House Aeducan (could happen) then that would give you two votes. If you could keep Helmi alive and get him to vote according to his principle's and not those of his mother that's three houses. Three out of eighty-one* will not really get you anywhere. Are you counting on support from other houses? If so, where is the indication that any of them will support you when Helmi's views are so abnormal? Will you count on Bhelen's supporters who all hate you and who have their predecessor dead at your hands during the rebellion? Will you count on Harrowmont supporters who voted with him because they want the throne themselves or because they love the status quo? Do you acknowledge that the nobles in the Assembly are the ones with the political power and that they love the status quo since it's so blatantly in their favor?

Yep; basically the plan.

Sure I have the immediate Noble votes against me, but the Warden may have the Casteless including Surface Dwarves, reformationist merchants, and Warrior castes including the Legion behind the new House for support. Now with Bhelen gone, those simply following because of gold may desire a new source of income now that the old well is dry. Sift through them, and may add a few.

Plus I will attempt to sway the Shaperate to include more records of the Casteless as they join, as I am not a fan of selective and revisioinist history.

Nobles have votes, but the Warden may have more overall control over Orzammar via economic control, much like the Carta but w/o Jarvia and that ilk..

Are you going to just hope that the fact that you're a Paragon and that the desperate Assembly, who will even let you pick the ruler yourself if you admit that the Paragon didn't care because they are sick of the stalemate, will let the Paragon cast the tie-breaking vote (and given that they'd be a deshyr, that's the equivalent of giving Harrowmont or Bhelen 41-40) means that Paragons are omnipotent? That nothing you could ever do or say will turn people against you and they will automatically fall in line or commit 'political suicide' even if what you want to do is not even remotely in their best interests?

What about the fact that when Branka wouldn't give Bhelen exclusive golem rights we never hear of any riots when he goes after her? Do you think that if Branka decided to start grabbing people off the streets and forcing them to become golems then the fact that she's a Paragon would mean that everyone would continue to support her and that the deshyrs who tried to stop her would be committing political suicide or is there only so far that the Paragon can push before people stop worshipping them?

Even if your DN became king (and that wouldn't be easy given how much everyone wants to keep the Aeducans off the throne) then Harrowmont proved that the Assembly is still perfectly willing and able to stymie you. Unless you're willing to crack down or dissolve them like the 'dictator' Bhelen does then I honestly don't see how you're going to pull this off.

A complete overhaul of the dwarven system like that on the strength of your being a Paragon when you reject Bhelen's methods highly effective because they are 'immoral' just strikes me as incredibly unrealistic.

*That's another thing I've been wondering about. Are there 80 noble houses in Orzammar currently? Do only the top 80 families get to vote? If you become a Paragon do you get to be a deshyr? If so are there now 81 deshyrs or does the least important house lose their vote?

Disbanding the Assembly sounds good; just no mass murders of other Noble Houses. Branka, Bhelen and his fanatical crowd are mostly expired, so I will be able to focus more on trade including Lyrium.

No detailed plans; just a slow, steady, and ultimate reform for all Castes and economic control.

[BigBad]

Power flows from the top in Orzammar. Casteless and surface dwarves have absolutely no political capital in the Assembly. The Legion of the Dead is also a non-entity in the political landscape, as every member is considered dead (and I imagine that if you ask the Shaperate, they'll tell you in all seriousness that Kardol died some time ago and does not exist as a person in the present) and they concern themselves as an organization solely with fighting to the death with the darkspawn in the Deep Roads, although they appear to take orders from the King.



You could have the undying respect of the Legion, every duster in Orzammar on your payroll, economic connections with the surface, and Paragon-hood besides, but if you have no allies on the Assembly, you cannot enact or dictate policy beyond the informal respect given to Paragons and Noble House heads. And if you are proposing reforms that will ultimately weaken their position at the top, then -they will not just ignore that-, so you will find yourself bereft of allied votes.



Note: Bhelen will be dead, but he still enjoys wide-spread and nigh-fanatical support across a broad spectrum of Orzammar society, /including those whose goals would otherwise make them your allies in reformation/. Harrowmont spends a good deal of time during his reign just dealing with rebellion from Bhelen-supporters, even after Bhelen is long dead.

[Elhanan]

BigBad wrote...

Power flows from the top in Orzammar. Casteless and surface dwarves have absolutely no political capital in the Assembly. The Legion of the Dead is also a non-entity in the political landscape, as every member is considered dead (and I imagine that if you ask the Shaperate, they'll tell you in all seriousness that Kardol died some time ago and does not exist as a person in the present) and they concern themselves as an organization solely with fighting to the death with the darkspawn in the Deep Roads, although they appear to take orders from the King.

You could have the undying respect of the Legion, every duster in Orzammar on your payroll, economic connections with the surface, and Paragon-hood besides, but if you have no allies on the Assembly, you cannot enact or dictate policy beyond the informal respect given to Paragons and Noble House heads. And if you are proposing reforms that will ultimately weaken their position at the top, then -they will not just ignore that-, so you will find yourself bereft of allied votes.

Note: Bhelen will be dead, but he still enjoys wide-spread and nigh-fanatical support across a broad spectrum of Orzammar society, /including those whose goals would otherwise make them your allies in reformation/. Harrowmont spends a good deal of time during his reign just dealing with rebellion from Bhelen-supporters, even after Bhelen is long dead.

Power is in how it is perceived. Control of surface trade, merchant allies within Orzammar, lyrium trade with the Chantry and the Circle, and other economic matters PLUS the warrior castes that protect them and increased status of the casteless may make a rather formidable mechanism towards vote persuasion. Disband the Assemby for a time, and economics may be enough to sway new incoming memebers to consider their purses above political controls.

Plus I have Gorim, so I may have many women players on my team, too.

[ejoslin]

Elhanan wrote...

Power is in how it is perceived. Control of surface trade, merchant allies within Orzammar, lyrium trade with the Chantry and the Circle, and other economic matters PLUS the warrior castes that protect them and increased status of the casteless may make a rather formidable mechanism towards vote persuasion. Disband the Assemby for a time, and economics may be enough to sway new incoming memebers to consider their purses above political controls.

Plus I have Gorim, so I may have many women players on my team, too.

You know, your DN is beginning to sound more and more like he'll rule like Bhelen.  Same goals and methods.  Why let Harrowmont do the damage he will inevitably do (some of which may be irreversible -- the offer of troops most likely won't happen a second time).  Especially since your warden will probably only have, at most 20 - 25 years (depending on how long Harrowmont lives, and also if your calling comes sooner because you did your joining during a blight).

[Elhanan]

ejoslin wrote...

You know, your DN is beginning to sound more and more like he'll rule like Bhelen.  Same goals and methods.  Why let Harrowmont do the damage he will inevitably do (some of which may be irreversible -- the offer of troops most likely won't happen a second time).  Especially since your warden will probably only have, at most 20 - 25 years (depending on how long Harrowmont lives, and also if your calling comes sooner because you did your joining during a blight).

As I mentioned earlier, I plan to play the game of politics, but not dupe my opponents moves/ methods (ie; avoid murder, but will defend my House; no forgeries or illegal papers, but can be deceptive enough to allow the oppostion to believe what they will, etc).

As for longevity, most folks do not seem to rule very long anyway. But I know where the Ashes are kept, and plan to give myself a pinch; couldn't hurt.