574 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Murdering political opponents and forgeries is an intergral part of Dwarven politics. If you don't do it, you limit yourself. Just because you play nice, does not mean that the other Deshyrs will. Just don't give Behlen the anvil and ask for military support from Ferelden and you will have the ideal political landscape for your Paragon. Even though Behlen will dissolve the assembly, eventually, you are still a Paragon, and Orzammar will listen to you, even if there is no Assembly.

[Sarah1281]

[quote] Sure I have the immediate Noble votes against me, but the Warden may have the Casteless including Surface Dwarves, reformationist merchants, and Warrior castes including the Legion behind the new House for support. Now with Bhelen gone, those simply following because of gold may desire a new source of income now that the old well is dry. Sift through them, and may add a few. [/quote] Bhelen alienates members of the warrior caste by providing rights for the casteless. They are just below the nobles. Why in the world would they support your plan to give other people power any more than the nobles would? You may get merchants like Bhelen did but ultimately how much support from the non-nobles they had didn't seem to really affect their political support.



[quote] Plus I will attempt to sway the Shaperate to include more records of the Casteless as they join, as I am not a fan of selective and revisioinist history. [/quote] And Shaper Czibor, for one, will never do that. I'm going to assume that having him killed would be too Bhelen-ish of you so you'd have to hope that he'd die of old age at some point soon and that his successor (how are these chosen? By the Shapers themselves? By the next oldest scholar?) is more open to this but it seems highly unlikely that this will ever happen. Casteless aren't legally people so how can the Shaper acknowledge them? It really seems like a law would need to be passed to overturn this legal status.



[quote Nobles have votes, but the Warden may have more overall control over Orzammar via economic control, much like the Carta but w/o Jarvia and that ilk.. [/quote] Beraht had that. He did have a lot of power, yes, but it was hardly infinite.



[quote] Power is in how it is perceived. Control of surface trade, merchant allies within Orzammar, lyrium trade with the Chantry and the Circle, and other economic matters PLUS the warrior castes that protect them and increased status of the casteless may make a rather formidable mechanism towards vote persuasion. Disband the Assemby for a time, and economics may be enough to sway new incoming memebers to consider their purses above political controls. [/quote] And how exactly do you think you'll gain an economic monopoly in Orzammar anyway? Just decide 'you know what, it would suit my goals if I had an economic monopoly' and expect it to be done? I'll bet you anything that each and every noble house would jump at the chance for just that if it could be done.



[quote] As I mentioned earlier, I plan to play the game of politics, but not dupe my opponents moves/ methods (ie; avoid murder, but will defend my House; no forgeries or illegal papers, but can be deceptive enough to allow the oppostion to believe what they will, etc). [/quote] Do you really think that those that do resort to 'duping', murder, forgeries, ect. do so out of laziness or a lack of creativity? If it were so easy to be a paragon of virtue and still come out on top then there would actually be people doing just that. So your goal is to be Bhelen without the fact that he's a kinslayer? Does the fact that he killed one brother and siding with Harrowmont means you've also killed one mean nothing?



[quote] As for longevity, most folks do not seem to rule very long anyway. But I know where the Ashes are kept, and plan to give myself a pinch; couldn't hurt. [/quote] Maybe not but it's already been established that it will do nothing.

[Elhanan]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Murdering political opponents and forgeries is an intergral part of Dwarven politics. If you don't do it, you limit yourself. Just because you play nice, does not mean that the other Deshyrs will. Just don't give Behlen the anvil and ask for military support from Ferelden and you will have the ideal political landscape for your Paragon. Even though Behlen will dissolve the assembly, eventually, you are still a Paragon, and Orzammar will listen to you, even if there is no Assembly.

Then I will restrict myself, as we all should do in RL. Just because other folks act like complete jerks, does not give me freedom to do the same.

And Bhelen gaining the crown is not an answer for me.

[Sarah1281]

Then I will restrict myself, as we all should do in RL. Just because other folks act like complete jerks, does not give me freedom to do the same.

No but these people aren't 'acting like complete jerks' just because they are 'complete jerks.' They do it because that's the most effective way to get things done and if you try to be the sole virtuous deshyr then good luck accomplishing anything.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Bhelen alienates members of the warrior caste by providing rights for the casteless. They are just below the nobles. Why in the world would they support your plan to give other people power any more than the nobles would? You may get merchants like Bhelen did but ultimately how much support from the non-nobles they had didn't seem to really affect their political support.

Bhelen was also no warrior. As a two time champion of the Proving, Warden, and temp leader of the armies and Legion, I may have earned a bit more respect from comraderie than Bhelen did with bribery. And if I am able to gather more trade for Orzammar, the idea of increased profits may aid in gaining more allies of all Castes.

As for integrating the Casteless into the community, the charming old Dr Seuss story of placing & removing Stars from all comes to mind. I can have those willing to do so in Dwarven society accept Brands, and have some of the Casteless get some of theirs removed. Just a partial step, but may create enough confusion to start debate. I prefer silly and simple to murder.

And Shaper Czibor, for one, will never do that. I'm going to assume that having him killed would be too Bhelen-ish of you so you'd have to hope that he'd die of old age at some point soon and that his successor (how are these chosen? By the Shapers themselves? By the next oldest scholar?) is more open to this but it seems highly unlikely that this will ever happen. Casteless aren't legally people so how can the Shaper acknowledge them? It really seems like a law would need to be passed to overturn this legal status.

You mean the current Shaper that was able to start an investigation of House Gavorn, retrieve a valuable book, gain info on House Caidash, Caradin, Branka, etc because of my role as Warden? The one that had all such acts documented? The one that now includes the selfless acts of the Casteless from DAO & DAA? The one that may have to include the Casteless joining my House and court?

No Bhelenesque acts needed or required, I believe. For the most part, let history - restored history -and Dwarven personal pride do the heavy lifting.

And how exactly do you think you'll gain an economic monopoly in Orzammar anyway? Just decide 'you know what, it would suit my goals if I had an economic monopoly' and expect it to be done? I'll bet you anything that each and every noble house would jump at the chance for just that if it could be done.

This will be done by my character; not me. I know little to nothing of politics, economics, and Ferelden culture. But my Warden, House, friends, and allies seem to know quite a bit.

Random thoughts: Caradin's fortress seems to be a great new location for Lyrium, Surface and Casteless Dwarves have litle to lose and much to gain, the Templars need to gain freedom from lyrium addiction, the Chantry needs greater access to Ozammar for many reasons, the Circle mages need lyrium, the Dalish wish to recover their cultural past which may involve past alliance with us, etc.

Allies in war may help make stronger friends in peace.

Do you really think that those that do resort to 'duping', murder, forgeries, ect. do so out of laziness or a lack of creativity? If it were so easy to be a paragon of virtue and still come out on top then there would actually be people doing just that. So your goal is to be Bhelen without the fact that he's a kinslayer? Does the fact that he killed one brother and siding with Harrowmont means you've also killed one mean nothing?

I do believe those that often commit crimes do so out of laziness and a lack of creativity. Murder is easy; proper reformation in society, morality, and general ethics is much more difficult, but I am willing to take that path.

Maybe not but it's already been established that it will do nothing.

Then I have ca.30 yrs; longer than Bhelen ruled, at least.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Then I will restrict myself, as we all should do in RL. Just because other folks act like complete jerks, does not give me freedom to do the same.

No but these people aren't 'acting like complete jerks' just because they are 'complete jerks.' They do it because that's the most effective way to get things done and if you try to be the sole virtuous deshyr then good luck accomplishing anything.

 I shall restrict myself in the game from using murder, and other Bheleneque extremes. Perhaps doing so will be more difficult, but I have much to reform besides social injustice..

[Sarah1281]

Bhelen was also no warrior. As a two time champion of the Proving, Warden, and temp leader of the armies and Legion, I may have earned a bit more respect from comraderie than Bhelen did with bribery. And if I am able to gather more trade for Orzammar, the idea of increased profits may aid in gaining more allies of all Castes.

More allies from the merchant caste, perhaps, but they were already pretty solidly Bhelen. And sure they might respect you more than Bhelen but respect does not translate into being willing to support you lessening their rights and privileges by giving some to other people.

As for integrating the Casteless into the community, the charming old Dr Seuss story of placing & removing Stars from all comes to mind. I can have those willing to do so in Dwarven society accept Brands, and have some of the Casteless get some of theirs removed. Just a partial step, but may create enough confusion to start debate. I prefer silly and simple to murder.

I doubt anyone would be willing to do this. At the start, it would make them look like they had no caste and thus did not exist and they would be treated like **** by everyone else. Even the servant caste has more pride than that. I'm also not sure that the brands CAN be removed. I mean, if they could then it would rather defeat the purpose of forever marking someone as a casteless now wouldn't it? Even today, how can you completely remove a tattoo without a laser which Thedas doesn't have access to.

You mean the current Shaper that was able to start an investigation of House Gavorn, retrieve a valuable book, gain info on House Caidash, Caradin, Branka, etc because of my role as Warden? The one that had all such acts documented? The one that now includes the selfless acts of the Casteless from DAO & DAA? The one that may have to include the Casteless joining my House and court?

Yes, I do mean that one. This is also, by the way, the one that if you ask about the castless as a DC and angrily demand if he means that you should never have been born coldly declares that you do not exist and refuses to admit that you've even been to Orzammar before no matter when you bring this up. Those casteless, by the way, were posthumously all promoted to warriors so he records the acts those brave WARRIORS did. The casteless you admit into your house are also no longer casteless. He may be grateful but he's still not going to acknowledge a casteless.

This will be done by my character; not me. I know little to nothing of politics, economics, and Ferelden culture. But my Warden, House, friends, and allies seem to know quite a bit.



Random thoughts: Caradin's fortress seems to be a great new location for Lyrium, Surface and Casteless Dwarves have litle to lose and much to gain, the Templars need to gain freedom from lyrium addiction, the Chantry needs greater access to Ozammar for many reasons, the Circle mages need lyrium, the Dalish wish to recover their cultural past which may involve past alliance with us, etc.



Allies in war may help make stronger friends in peace.

Your character might know more than you but they are not a miracle worker and 'gain complete monopoly on Orzammar economy in thirty years or less' just doesn't seem very realistic. Orzammar is not suffering from a lack of lyrium. They have plenty. Helping the templars will not only earn you the animosity of the Chantry but it will also mean that there would be a lesser demand for lyrium. I doubt that the Dalish will decide to ally with you just because people in their past MAY have. You say how hard it was to get them to even stick with their own ancient treaty.

I do believe those that often commit crimes do so out of laziness and a lack of creativity. Murder is easy; proper reformation in society, morality, and general ethics is much more difficult, but I am willing to take that path.

You are willing to try but it really doesn't sound like you'll succeed and you seem to be overestimating how much everyone will welcome your changes and jump to support you out of gratitude and a fancy title. You've really given no reason for the Assembly to support you and if there's one thing the game proved it's that these people do not always act rationally and if it's a choice between taking away their own inflated rights or not doing so and facing the economic consequences you really can't count on them voting their own power away.

Then I have ca.30 yrs; longer than Bhelen ruled, at least.

Or so you assume. Maybe you'll get assassinated in the first few years and THAT'S why you disappear.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Murdering political opponents and forgeries is an intergral part of Dwarven politics. If you don't do it, you limit yourself. Just because you play nice, does not mean that the other Deshyrs will. Just don't give Behlen the anvil and ask for military support from Ferelden and you will have the ideal political landscape for your Paragon. Even though Behlen will dissolve the assembly, eventually, you are still a Paragon, and Orzammar will listen to you, even if there is no Assembly.

Then I will restrict myself, as we all should do in RL. Just because other folks act like complete jerks, does not give me freedom to do the same.

And Bhelen gaining the crown is not an answer for me.

You have every right to choose Harrowmont as your King, but I don't see how his disastrous rule as King is going to pave the way for you to replace him, especially since he hurts Orzammar because of his inept handling of the kingdom.

Elhanan wrote...

Bhelen was also no warrior. As a two time champion of the Proving, Warden, and temp leader of the armies and Legion, I may have earned a bit more respect from comraderie than Bhelen did with bribery. And if I am able to gather more trade for Orzammar, the idea of increased profits may aid in gaining more allies of all Castes.

Except Harrowmont brings Orzammar to ruin, Bhelen's supporters are still alive, the casteless are still powerless, and the economy is hurt because the kingdom has been isolated from the surface, so why is anyone going to back you as the new King?

Elhanan wrote...

As for integrating the Casteless into the community, the charming old Dr Seuss story of placing & removing Stars from all comes to mind. I can have those willing to do so in Dwarven society accept Brands, and have some of the Casteless get some of theirs removed. Just a partial step, but may create enough confusion to start debate. I prefer silly and simple to murder.

So your plan to reconcile centuries of bigotry and hatred is to follow Dr. Seuss? I don't think that's a sound plan.

Elhanan wrote...

You mean the current Shaper that was able to start an investigation of House Gavorn, retrieve a valuable book, gain info on House Caidash, Caradin, Branka, etc because of my role as Warden? The one that had all such acts documented? The one that now includes the selfless acts of the Casteless from DAO & DAA? The one that may have to include the Casteless joining my House and court?

Yes, the same Shaper who sees the casteless as less than people, regardless of what the Warden does. He makes that clear when you speak with him.

Elhanan wrote...

No Bhelenesque acts needed or required, I believe. For the most part, let history - restored history -and Dwarven personal pride do the heavy lifting.

The casteless dwarves who were made Paragons didn't change the minds of the everyday dwarves who see the casteless as less than people, so I think it's a bigger issue than you realize.

Elhanan wrote...

This will be done by my character; not me. I know little to nothing of politics, economics, and Ferelden culture. But my Warden, House, friends, and allies seem to know quite a bit. 

Random thoughts: Caradin's fortress seems to be a great new location for Lyrium, Surface and Casteless Dwarves have litle to lose and much to gain, the Templars need to gain freedom from lyrium addiction, the Chantry needs greater access to Ozammar for many reasons, the Circle mages need lyrium, the Dalish wish to recover their cultural past which may involve past alliance with us, etc.

The path to the fortress is clear mostly because it's during a Blight that you access it. It'll take time to pave a way back to the fortress after the Blight has been resolved. And you need to keep in mind that the Chantry has a monopoly on the lyrium trade, they aren't going to change their methods involving the templars, and they control the Circles. Also, surface dwarves can't withstand lyrium like the Orzammar dwarves can.

Elhanan wrote...

I do believe those that often commit crimes do so out of laziness and a lack of creativity. Murder is easy; proper reformation in society, morality, and general ethics is much more difficult, but I am willing to take that path.

I don't see why you want to rule Orzammar when you seem to distain how cunning politicans are willing to be and their underhanded methods for gaining power. They've done this for centuries, long before Orzammar was the last dwarven kingdom, and I don't see any one person being able to change it in one lifetime.

[Graspiloot]

You are so self-righteous.

You have all the answers for all the problems and the ingame characters could have done them, but they just couldn't be bothered. Do you think they kill those people just for fun, or because they can? Geez..

Also you would do the same things as Bhelen in assumably less time, without dirty tricks and everyone is just going to follow you, because they respect you. Do you not see how unrealistic this sounds?

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

You are so self-righteous.
You have all the answers for all the problems and the ingame characters could have done them, but they just couldn't be bothered. Do you think they kill those people just for fun, or because they can? Geez..
Also you would do the same things as Bhelen in assumably less time, without dirty tricks and everyone is just going to follow you, because they respect you. Do you not see how unrealistic this sounds?

Because you seem to truly care, I don't. And I am not self-righteous; just remember what it was like when I did not try to be righteous at all.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

More allies from the merchant caste, perhaps, but they were already pretty solidly Bhelen. And sure they might respect you more than Bhelen but respect does not translate into being willing to support you lessening their rights and privileges by giving some to other people.

Solidly? Bhelen had already lost backing from a sizable majoritywhen he tossed his brother into the Deep Roads to where he could not gain the throne against what many here call a weak opponent. And I will take respect over intimidation, and work with that.

I doubt anyone would be willing to do this. At the start, it would make them look like they had no caste and thus did not exist and they would be treated like **** by everyone else. Even the servant caste has more pride than that. I'm also not sure that the brands CAN be removed. I mean, if they could then it would rather defeat the purpose of forever marking someone as a casteless now wouldn't it? Even today, how can you completely remove a tattoo without a laser which Thedas doesn't have access to.

Got this one from my first Warden that did not have a Brand. It did not help in dialogues, but got me to consider what if.
 
Many of the Casteless are not as garish with their tats, so these would not be as difficult to remove. And magic and lyrium are available which we do not have; fair trade.

Yes, I do mean that one. This is also, by the way, the one that if you ask about the castless as a DC and angrily demand if he means that you should never have been born coldly declares that you do not exist and refuses to admit that you've even been to Orzammar before no matter when you bring this up. Those casteless, by the way, were posthumously all promoted to warriors so he records the acts those brave WARRIORS did. The casteless you admit into your house are also no longer casteless. He may be grateful but he's still not going to acknowledge a casteless.

When you speak to him initially as a DC, he does speak his feelings and thoughts, as well as notice your new rank. Later, he acknowledges your deeds and achievements. Then in the epilogue, you are made a Paragon, possibly meaning that perhaps he has some work to do. In this small amount of time, we see growth. I will work with it; better than murder.

 Your character might know more than you but they are not a miracle worker and 'gain complete monopoly on Orzammar economy in thirty years or less' just doesn't seem very realistic. Orzammar is not suffering from a lack of lyrium. They have plenty. Helping the templars will not only earn you the animosity of the Chantry but it will also mean that there would be a lesser demand for lyrium. I doubt that the Dalish will decide to ally with you just because people in their past MAY have. You say how hard it was to get them to even stick with their own ancient treaty.

Never planned on complete control, as I am not into making myself into a Kingpin; just a King that wishes to help all his people. And sometime change occurs more quickly than some give credit,

Currently the Chantry uses lyrium to control Templars. Sandal and Dagna could both be helpful in seeing that direct access to the Tranquil would be more productive, as well as less destructive. And the Dalish have new leadership, more area to research their culture, and can trade crafts; they can gain more knowledge of metals, and the Dwarves can gain increased woodworking skills. At the least, it is a start.

You are willing to try but it really doesn't sound like you'll succeed and you seem to be overestimating how much everyone will welcome your changes and jump to support you out of gratitude and a fancy title. You've really given no reason for the Assembly to support you and if there's one thing the game proved it's that these people do not always act rationally and if it's a choice between taking away their own inflated rights or not doing so and facing the economic consequences you really can't count on them voting their own power away.

If I fail at trying to do things the right way, then maybe I fail. But sometimes folks remember what such people tried to do, and build upon it. And while I may not always be up to the task, my Warden can be.

Or so you assume. Maybe you'll get assassinated in the first few years and THAT'S why you disappear.

Perhaps. Lincoln did not live too long either, but is remembered fairly well. And he was known for many failures, too. I would take that kind of life over anyone like Bhelen any day. But that is me.

[Sarah1281]

Solidly? Bhelen had already lost backing from a sizable majoritywhen he tossed his brother into the Deep Roads to where he could not gain the throne against what many here call a weak opponent. And I will take respect over intimidation, and work with that

I said that the MERCHANTS WHO DID NOT VOTE FOR THE KING were pretty solidly Bhelen. Bhelen not being able to immediately seize the crown has nothing to do with what the other castes think of him. Besides, how do we know that they needed a simple majority to win? Maybe three-fourths was required but Bhelen only had 59 deshyrs to start with and as Harrowmont kept holding Bhelen off, some deshyrs who wanted the throne for themselves started defecting.

Got this one from my first Warden that did not have a Brand. It did not help in dialogues, but got me to consider what if.



Many of the Casteless are not as garish with their tats, so these would not be as difficult to remove. And magic and lyrium are available which we do not have; fair trade.

My DC didn't have a brand either as I hate facial tattoos. That said, everyone acted like the brand was there and without the brand no one would have been able to tell. In-game you had a brand regardless of whether it was on the character you created. Even if the casteless did not get any other tattoos but the one they were forced to get, that doesn't mean they have the ability to remove them. MAYBE magic can remove tattoos but you can't say that it is a definitive part of your plan for equality when we don't know if that's possible and, if it is, if it would work on magic-resistant dwarves.

When you speak to him initially as a DC, he does speak his feelings and thoughts, as well as notice your new rank. Later, he acknowledges your deeds and achievements. Then in the epilogue, you are made a Paragon, possibly meaning that perhaps he has some work to do. In this small amount of time, we see growth. I will work with it; better than murder.

That's not him growing as a person, believe me. He refuses to acknowledge that you ever existed in Orzammar outside of a Warden. If you really need me to get the quotes, I will. He will acknowledge you as a GW and that is it. In the epilogue, he will also acknowledge you as a Paragon but never as a casteless. If the casteless ever get status as a concubine, a member of your new house, or those posthumous warriors then he will not acknowledge their previous casteless status and this will not help any future casteless. There is no growth there is just continued selective history.

Currently the Chantry uses lyrium to control Templars. Sandal and Dagna could both be helpful in seeing that direct access to the Tranquil would be more productive, as well as less destructive. And the Dalish have new leadership, more area to research their culture, and can trade crafts; they can gain more knowledge of metals, and the Dwarves can gain increased woodworking skills. At the least, it is a start.

Yes, they do. Why would they want to stop having templars under their control? It's not like we've heard anything about them lacking lyrium. I don't know what you mean about Sandal and Dagna convincing them to use Tranquil. They already do. ONE Dalish clan has a new leader and I don't see Lanaya as more willing to research the past than Zathrian. Also...how will allying with dwarves help the Dalish recover their past? The dwarves don't really need woodworking skills as there are no trees underground and metal weapons are more effective.

If I fail at trying to do things the right way, then maybe I fail. But sometimes folks remember what such people tried to do, and build upon it. And while I may not always be up to the task, my Warden can be.

Yes, your failure could inspire people but I don't see why that would be better than allowing Bhelen to actually succeed? Orzammar is at least a couple generations off from having an atmosphere that allows moral politics and change.

Perhaps. Lincoln did not live too long either, but is remembered fairly well. And he was known for many failures, too. I would take that kind of life over anyone like Bhelen any day. But that is me.

True but Lincoln may have only had another four years as President anyway and Civil War America and Orzammar were too different places. Lincoln was trying to prevent the country from splitting into two and Orzammar needs to worry about not being killed by darkspawn and watching its population die off/leave for the surface.

[Elhanan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You have every right to choose Harrowmont as your King, but I don't see how his disastrous rule as King is going to pave the way for you to replace him, especially since he hurts Orzammar because of his inept handling of the kingdom.

Not that disastorous for me. He may accomplish little, and not be the Reformationist that I believe is needed, but he hardly leaves the land in ruins unless you also save the Anvil, which I have not done. I shall build on what is available.

Except Harrowmont brings Orzammar to ruin, Bhelen's supporters are still alive, the casteless are still powerless, and the economy is hurt because the kingdom has been isolated from the surface, so why is anyone going to back you as the new King?

Coersion(4), and NPC's cannot have it?

No ruins (see above), and the economy will be a priority as I have allies on the Surface.

So your plan to reconcile centuries of bigotry and hatred is to follow Dr. Seuss? I don't think that's a sound plan.

Not the whole scheme, but it does fit Keeping It Simple. And I still adore such tales and artistic works that influence lives many years after their telling.

Yes, the same Shaper who sees the casteless as less than people, regardless of what the Warden does. He makes that clear when you speak with him.

Some see this as a lost cause; I see a work in progress.

The casteless dwarves who were made Paragons didn't change the minds of the everyday dwarves who see the casteless as less than people, so I think it's a bigger issue than you realize.

Casteless are everyday Dwarves. As for the ones already in Castes, work must be done to change perceptions. Maybe the Provings would be a good place to start, as the DC Warden can attest.

The path to the fortress is clear mostly because it's during a Blight that you access it. It'll take time to pave a way back to the fortress after the Blight has been resolved. And you need to keep in mind that the Chantry has a monopoly on the lyrium trade, they aren't going to change their methods involving the templars, and they control the Circles. Also, surface dwarves can't withstand lyrium like the Orzammar dwarves can.

Some paths will not be easy to travel, but that has not stopped the Warden thus far. Where you see obstacles, the wardem may view possibilities, answrs, and hope. I would scream freedom at this point, but that is becoming so overdone.....

I don't see why you want to rule Orzammar when you seem to distain how cunning politicans are willing to be and their underhanded methods for gaining power. They've done this for centuries, long before Orzammar was the last dwarven kingdom, and I don't see any one person being able to change it in one lifetime.

I also wish to change Orzammar, and the way of current politics; part of the entire Reform movement. But all I have to do is stay the course for myself, and that one life may make a difference.

Modifié par Elhanan, 12 janvier 2011 - 08:30 .

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan,



You say that you wish Orzammar to change yet you back the candidate that not only opposes change but is downright regressive (not just conservative) in many ways (as even a little investigation will show).



Something does not compute.



Often you need authoritarian leaders to break inherently broken and regressive systems (Octavian of Rome, Richilieu/Mazarin/Louis XIV of France, etc).



-Polaris

[Markinator_123]

I haven't read the previous pages but I always pick Bhelen as King. Why on Earth would someone pick someone so spineless and weak like Harrowmont. It was funny when Bhelen called for that old fart's execution.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Not that disastorous for me. He may accomplish little, and not be the Reformationist that I believe is needed, but he hardly leaves the land in ruins unless you also save the Anvil, which I have not done. I shall build on what is available.

He's unable to pass any legislation except those that isolate Orzammar from the surface. In the epilogue, it's actually mentioned that his passing leads to a civil war because of the power vacuum. How is that not a disaster when you claim that you're going to save Orzammar?

Elhanan wrote...

Coersion(4), and NPC's cannot have it?

No ruins (see above), and the economy will be a priority as I have allies on the Surface.

Trust me, if they did, my mage army would be marching across Orlais instead of asking for a boon from the ruler of Ferelden.

However, that doesn't change that the civil war erupts because there's no clear line of succession and people want power. The civil war happens when Harrowmont dies. The only time he doesn't die is when the Anvil is saved, and you've made it clear that you destroyed the Anvil.

Elhanan wrote...

Not the whole scheme, but it does fit Keeping It Simple. And I still adore such tales and artistic works that influence lives many years after their telling.

I can't dispute the magic of Dr. Seuss, but given the Warden's limited life span (and even considering that the Urn actually liberates the Dwarven Paragon from the taint) there's still a civil war, and many other contenders for the throne.

Elhanan wrote...

Some see this as a lost cause; I see a work in progress.

The Shaper is a bigot who makes no indication he's going to change his mind. He never goes through any character progression in the story. How is that a work in progress?

Elhanan wrote...

Casteless are everyday Dwarves. As for the ones already in Castes, work must be done to change perceptions. Maybe the Provings would be a good place to start, as the DC Warden can attest.

Except a casteless dwarf has been made a Paragon in the past (as the Dwarf Commoner Origin references) but that didn't do anything to change people's perceptions about the casteless.

Elhanan wrote...

Some paths will not be easy to travel, but that has not stopped the Warden thus far. Where you see obstacles, the warden may view possibilities, answrs, and hope. I would scream freedom at this point, but that is becoming so overdone.....

The problem is that people are pointing out that Bhelen's methods lead to results for the casteless and progress for Orzammar, and Harrowmont's methods lead to isolation and a civil war. Despite the trials and tribulations that would be faced, it doesn't change how badly things turn out for Orzammar because of Harrowmont's leadership.

Elhanan wrote...

I also wish to change Orzammar, and the way of current politics; part of the entire Reform movement. But all I have to do is stay the course for myself, and that one life may make a difference.

That's the reason people side with Bhelen over Harrowmont, because he brings the reform that Orzammar needs, whether the people want it or not. It's the reason why the epilogue mentions that some see him as a reformer. I understand the desire to change things, but as much my canon Warden would love to become the Teyrn of Gwaren and have an idyllic paradise where elves are equals and mages are free, it's not realistic in terms of lore. When faced with the choice between a man willing to make hard choices that will benefit society, and another man who wants to keep intact a bigoted way of life and capitulates, I'm willing to side with the man who will make the difference over the one who will lead to stagnation. You're welcome to dismiss Bhelen, but I prefer the Orzammar that gives the casteless more freedoms and retakes the lost thaigs over the one that succumbs to isolation and a civil war.

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Elhanan,

You say that you wish Orzammar to change yet you back the candidate that not only opposes change but is downright regressive (not just conservative) in many ways (as even a little investigation will show).

Something does not compute.

Often you need authoritarian leaders to break inherently broken and regressive systems (Octavian of Rome, Richilieu/Mazarin/Louis XIV of France, etc).-Polaris

Pass on the history lesson; thanks. Not needed for a fictional world setting with variable envirmonments.

And I would rather choose an ethical Conservative than a murderous Reformationist. No computation needed.

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Elhanan,

You say that you wish Orzammar to change yet you back the candidate that not only opposes change but is downright regressive (not just conservative) in many ways (as even a little investigation will show).

Something does not compute.

Often you need authoritarian leaders to break inherently broken and regressive systems (Octavian of Rome, Richilieu/Mazarin/Louis XIV of France, etc).-Polaris

Pass on the history lesson; thanks. Not needed for a fictional world setting with variable envirmonments.

And I would rather choose an ethical Conservative than a murderous Reformationist. No computation needed.

He who doesn't learn from history is doomed to repeat it and games are often driven by RL historical perspective.  You might want to read up on Cardinal Protectors Richelieu and Mazarin and King Louis XIV and learn something.  Sometimes it takes a strong, autocratic and even nasty king to break open a corrupt system so future change becomes possible even if it's unintentional.  Without France's "Authoritarian Age" with these three as their architects, the advances that led to Modern France and the French Revolution simply could not have happened.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[double post]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 janvier 2011 - 08:52 .

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

He who doesn't learn from history is doomed to repeat it and games are often driven by RL historical perspective.  You might want to read up on Cardinal Protectors Richelieu and Mazarin and King Louis XIV and learn something.  Sometimes it takes a strong, autocratic and even nasty king to break open a corrupt system so future change becomes possible even if it's unintentional.  Without France's "Authoritarian Age" with these three as their architects, the advances that led to Modern France and the French Revolution simply could not have happened.

-Polaris

I agree. Got it. But as usual, few listen. I do not care. Pls save it to impress all the history buffs, for when I see these kinds of posts, I generally skim them, and move along.

@ all critics - As for my plans, my DM says it is fine; may take some DC checks, but looks good. Time to get back to the topic of selecting Bhelen or Harrowmont, and here is my vote for the latter.

[Graspiloot]

How is razing dust town ethical and not murderous? I know you are going to say: "Only if you save the golems.", but his willingness to do so is the proof he is not ethical, less so than Bhelen even, since he only killed his political opponents.

[Aeowyn]

Yes, choosing a leader without a backbone in a city where backbone is EXACTLY what you will need in order to not be eaten alive by the jackals is a fantastic plan.

Harrowmont couldn't even promise you the army, he would have to take it up with the Assembly first. What the hell. So yeah, there's a Blight coming and the darkspawn will destoy us all.
"Oh just a moment, need to argue this through with 80 spoiled nobles who don't give a rats ass about anyone else but themselves."

Anyone who choose Harrowmont because he's nice and don't really see the part where he makes everything WORSE for Orzammar must be completely and utterly blind or just refusing to look beyond their high ground.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 13 janvier 2011 - 01:43 .

[Elhanan]

Aeowyn wrote...

Yes, choosing a leader without a backbone in a city where backbone is EXACTLY what you will need in order to not be eaten alive by the jackals is a fantastic plan.

Harrowmont couldn't even promise you the army, he would have to take it up with the Assembly first. What the hell. So yeah, there's a Blight coming and the darkspawn will destoy us all.
"Oh just a moment, need to argue this through with 80 spoiled nobles who don't give a rats ass about anyone else but themselves."

Anyone who choose Harrowmont because he's nice and don't really see the part where he makes everything WORSE for Orzammar must be completely and utterly blind or just refusing to look beyond their high ground.

I do not choose Harrowmont because he is nice. I choose not to select Bhelen as he is a murderous slug. And military tactics seem to prefer higher ground, or so I have heard....

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

How is razing dust town ethical and not murderous? I know you are going to say: "Only if you save the golems.", but his willingness to do so is the proof he is not ethical, less so than Bhelen even, since he only killed his political opponents.

If Harrowmont is made the new king and the Anvil is saved, the new golems will be used to quickly crush Bhelen's rebellion. New laws will soon be passed further restricting the lower castes. While the casteless are furious and rebel openly, the nobility remains united behind Harrowmont. Dust Town is demolished as a result. Widespread outrage remains after the castless are defeated.

While still terrible, it was war; not murder or conspiricy to commit murder. Or killing one's own family.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Graspiloot wrote...

How is razing dust town ethical and not murderous? I know you are going to say: "Only if you save the golems.", but his willingness to do so is the proof he is not ethical, less so than Bhelen even, since he only killed his political opponents.

If Harrowmont is made the new king and the Anvil is saved, the new golems will be used to quickly crush Bhelen's rebellion. New laws will soon be passed further restricting the lower castes. While the casteless are furious and rebel openly, the nobility remains united behind Harrowmont. Dust Town is demolished as a result. Widespread outrage remains after the castless are defeated.

While still terrible, it was war; not murder or conspiricy to commit murder. Or killing one's own family.

Why is arranging for one two members of your family to be killed (neither murder you personally commit just as I'm sure Harrowmont didn't personally kill the casteless) worse than ordering far more than two people killed for riots about your oppressive policies? Harrowmont waged 'war' against his own people. It's basically Harrowmont actually finding a way to make life worse for the casteless and then when they try to seek some redress for their grievances he has them killed. You keep saying that Bhelen's killing of two siblings is worse than that but I don't understand how or why.