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[Giggles_Manically]

Because its Harrowmont?



He probably wept many tears at being like that and just wanted the casteless to you know not exist.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
While still terrible, it was war; not murder or conspiricy to commit murder. Or killing one's own family.

It was NOT an act of war. It was an act of brutal repression on the casteless because Harrowmont quite amazingly managed to make their lives even worse. If it was war, Harrowmont was the one who initiated it via his idiotic policies.

I don't particurarily care about the moral implications myself (but someone like you should, but many moralists have a  tendency to be incoherent). I don't mind Anora's repression of city elves, due to Ferelden recontruction, Denerim overpopulation, and simply because the elves are not relevent or crucial in any way (in the short run at least), Ferelden has other more important things to worry about and devote its ressources to. 
But Orzammar is in a severe case of depopulation and has such an obvious need for manpower, that it still amazes me how potently stupid Harrowmont and the Asssembly are in destroying their own "human" ressources.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 janvier 2011 - 03:36 .

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...



Pass on the history lesson; thanks. Not needed for a fictional world setting with variable envirmonments.



And I would rather choose an ethical Conservative than a murderous Reformationist. No computation needed.

I didn't realize it was ethical to deny people rights because of who their parents are, but that's just me. Although I'm sure the casteless see it differently, especially since Harrowmont's policies lead to their continued suffering, and Harrowmont has no problem murdering them if the Anvil is saved.



And you haven't mentioned how you were going to resolve the civil war that erupts when Harrowmont passes on as King because of the multiple contenders for the throne...

Elhanan wrote...



I do not choose Harrowmont because he is nice. I choose not to select Bhelen as he is a murderous slug.

I think that's the feeling the casteless have when Harrowmont destroys Dust Town with the golems...

Elhanan wrote...



While still terrible, it was war; not murder or conspiricy to commit murder. Or killing one's own family.

War? The casteless are men, women, and children who want rights, not another nation contending for territory. Dismissing the senseless murder of an entire town of men, women, and children that Harrowmont commits while calling Bhelen kinslayer is insane.

[Graspiloot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
While still terrible, it was war; not murder or conspiricy to commit murder. Or killing one's own family.

It was NOT an act of war. It was an act of brutal repression on the casteless because Harrowmont quite amazingly managed to make their lives even worse. If it was war, Harrowmont was the one who initiated it via his idiotic policies.

I don't particurarily care about the moral implications myself (but someone like you should, but many moralists have a  tendency to be incoherent). I don't mind Anora's repression of city elves, due to Ferelden recontruction, Denerim overpopulation, and simply because the elves are not relevent or crucial in any way (in the short run at least), Ferelden has other more important things to worry about and devote its ressources to. 
But Orzammar is in a severe case of depopulation and has such an obvious need for manpower, that it still amazes me how potently stupid Harrowmont and the Asssembly are in destroying their own "human" ressources.

As someone who usually plays an elf I beg to differ. If one would emancipate the elves and let them go off to their own lands you have an invaluable ally in inevitable coming wars against Orlais. Even with just giving them rights you could make a fine army of them.

The "moral" man indeed is very contradicting, murdering people who have no rights whatsoever, trying to get a little freedom, is moral. But on the other hand murdering two brothers from whom one at least is completely unworthy of ruling the nation is immoral.

Can anyone follow that logic?

[LobselVith8]

Graspiloot wrote...

As someone who usually plays an elf I beg to differ. If one would emancipate the elves and let them go off to their own lands you have an invaluable ally in inevitable coming wars against Orlais. Even with just giving them rights you could make a fine army of them.

That's exactly what Loghain did with the Night Elves. They were an asset against the war with Orlais. Alistair's decision to place the Elder on the council is a step towards that.

Graspiloot wrote...

The "moral" man indeed is very contradicting, murdering people who have no rights whatsoever, trying to get a little freedom, is moral. But on the other hand murdering two brothers from whom one at least is completely unworthy of ruling the nation is immoral.

Can anyone follow that logic?

Harrowmont is a bigot. His policies support his distain for the casteless. As for Bhelen being responsible for the death of his brothers, unless the Warden plays as a Dwarf Noble and doesn't kill Trian, it's entirely possible that the middle son is responsible for killing Trian because of the macinations of Bhelen. The middle son is then exiled by the Assembly.

[Elhanan]

Civil war is still war, whether you believe it is justified or not. Perhaps Harrowmont was attempting to prevent the Carta from being reborn; no details are given But I do not have to justify this event as.... *drumroll*

this is NOT an option I have chosen! *rimshot* Thank you! Will be here all week!

Some of you seem to believe that mean old Harrowmont was blind to the plight of the Casteless, and you would appear to be correct. This problem was not a new one; had been ongoing for generations, and generally those on both sides of Dust Town were used to it.

Not saying it is right, as I do not believe it is and personally support Reform, but it was not something that was even much discussed at all outside of Dust Town. One mention in Tapsters; maybe some local gossip from the criers, but do not recall much else. So why then would Harrowmont be more concerned than the other Nobles and citizens?

And Bhelen really cared? My heart is growing and getting all warm... wait; that must be the pizza I just finished.

I also do not recall any civil war in the Anvil destroyed epilogue; just more of the same Assemby nonsense we just completed.

As for my logic; what do you expect from the self-righteous?

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Civil war is still war, whether you believe it is justified or not. Perhaps Harrowmont was attempting to prevent the Carta from being reborn; no details are given But I do not have to justify this event as.... *drumroll*
this is NOT an option I have chosen! *rimshot* Thank you! Will be here all week!

Nobody here is denying you the right to choose Harrowmont over Bhelen, but your arguments leave something to be desired. You revile Bhelen because you blame him for the demise of two of his brothers, but don't care that Harrowmont can demolish an entire town of men, women, and children who want nothing more than their rights.

Elhanan wrote...

Some of you seem to believe that mean old Harrowmont was blind to the plight of the Casteless, and you would appear to be correct. This problem was not a new one; had been ongoing for generations, and generally those on both sides of Dust Town were used to it.

And Bhelen makes steps to resolve the issue by giving them more freedoms, which is unprecedented for a King to do.

Elhanan wrote...

Not saying it is right, as I do not believe it is and personally support Reform, but it was not something that was even much discussed at all outside of Dust Town. One mention in Tapsters; maybe some local gossip from the criers, but do not recall much else. So why then would Harrowmont be more concerned than the other Nobles and citizens?

That doesn't sound like a man who should be King. Harrowmont's lack of concern for the plight of the casteless is a reason why many support Bhelen over Harrowmont. It's one of the arguments to be made for supporting Bhelen over Harrowmont, especially for a Warden concerned about seeing reform in Orzammar.

Elhanan wrote...

And Bhelen really cared? My heart is growing and getting all warm... wait; that must be the pizza I just finished.
I also do not recall any civil war in the Anvil destroyed epilogue; just more of the same Assemby nonsense we just completed.

People are fighting for the throne because there's a power vacuum left in the wake of Harrowmont's death.

[Elhanan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nobody here is denying you the right to choose Harrowmont over Bhelen, but your arguments leave something to be desired. You revile Bhelen because you blame him for the demise of two of his brothers, but don't care that Harrowmont can demolish an entire town of men, women, and children who want nothing more than their rights....

An event I am unable to predict because I never give Harrowmont the golems. All is well, save for more Assembly haggling.

I may have made one error earlier if I said I never talked with Bhelen directly. My solo Warden did just that when he worked for his kinslaying brother up until the conclusion he gave Harrowmont the crown; rather enjoyable that one.

[Graspiloot]

And you just shattered the hopes and dreams of thousands of dwarves for a better future, you must be feeling pretty good about yourself after that. ^^

Also: Yeah I read the books as well, although I found the name "night elves" a bit inappropriate for a game that has stolen so much from WoW. 

Modifié par Graspiloot, 13 janvier 2011 - 05:06 .

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

And you just shattered the hopes and dreams of thousands of dwarves for a better future, you must be feeling pretty good about yourself after that. ^^

Not on my server; perhaps yours. But we already know that I am not up for supporting meglamaniacs like Branka and Bhelen; just weak old men that still beat Bhelen for the throne.

[Graspiloot]

Because your warden is not a megalomaniac, who would rather choose a disastrous, old king in hopes that he will die soon, (reasonable chance that this is not sooner than you), to become the same kind of king after that?

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...



And Bhelen really cared? My heart is growing and getting all warm... wait; that must be the pizza I just finished.

I also do not recall any civil war in the Anvil destroyed epilogue; just more of the same Assemby nonsense we just completed.

It wasn't a civil war. It was an oppressed population rioting and being utterly crushed. You might as well say that whenever the elves in the Alienage riot that Ferelden is involved in a civil war. They weren't an army, they were a civilian population that were taken to their breaking point. It is just more of the same in the Anvil destroyed epilogue because Harrowmont lacks the power to enact policies that will lead to this.



Also...why in the world does it matter if Bhelen cares about the casteless or not? If he makes their lives better what do his personal feelings matter? Everyone always brings up 'Well...Harrowmont might not care about the casteless but Bhelen doesn't either!' like it's supposed to make a difference and I can't imagine what that difference might be.

Not on my server; perhaps yours. But we already know that I am not up for supporting meglamaniacs like Branka and Bhelen; just weak old men that still beat Bhelen for the throne.

After all the direct intervention on your part, Lord Helmi might have been able to take the crown.

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

Because your warden is not a megalomaniac, who would rather choose a disastrous, old king in hopes that he will die soon, (reasonable chance that this is not sooner than you), to become the same kind of king after that?

I choose Harrowmont in hopes that he will be a strong King; even tell him so in a few campaigns. But alas; he folds himself in the tired old garb of the Assembly and serves the Nobles, dying shortly thereafter. As a Paragon, it is my duty to step up and into the role a living anscestor to give my people hope; all of them.

Not a meglamaniac; nor precognative knowing that Harowmont would be disastorous. Just sweet little old me.

Modifié par Elhanan, 13 janvier 2011 - 06:06 .

[Naitaka]

Elhanan wrote...

Graspiloot wrote...

Because your warden is not a megalomaniac, who would rather choose a disastrous, old king in hopes that he will die soon, (reasonable chance that this is not sooner than you), to become the same kind of king after that?

I choose Harrowmont in hopes that he will be a strong King; even tell him so in a few campaigns. But alas; he folds himself in the tired old garb of the Assembly and serves the Nobles, dying shortly thereafter. As a Paragon, it is my duty to step up and into the role a living anscestor to give my people hope; all of them.

Not a meglamaniac; nor precognative knowing that Harowmont would be disastorous. Just sweet little old me.

History is written by the winner eh? 

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Graspiloot wrote...

Because your warden is not a megalomaniac, who would rather choose a disastrous, old king in hopes that he will die soon, (reasonable chance that this is not sooner than you), to become the same kind of king after that?

I choose Harrowmont in hopes that he will be a strong King; even tell him so in a few campaigns. But alas; he folds himself in the tired old garb of the Assembly and serves the Nobles, dying shortly thereafter. As a Paragon, it is my duty to step up and into the role a living anscestor to give my people hope; all of them.

Not a meglamaniac; nor precognative knowing that Harowmont would be disastorous. Just sweet little old me.

...You realize that when you tell him this he tells you that he has no intention of even trying to be a strong king, right? I mean, if he himself insists he won't be strong I think that that is kind of an unrealistic expectation.

You also wouldn't have to if you hadn't personally killed their hope because he wasn't moral enough for you.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 It wasn't a civil war. It was an oppressed population rioting and being utterly crushed. You might as well say that whenever the elves in the Alienage riot that Ferelden is involved in a civil war. They weren't an army, they were a civilian population that were taken to their breaking point. It is just more of the same in the Anvil destroyed epilogue because Harrowmont lacks the power to enact policies that will lead to this.

Maybe; maybe not. We are only given a smudge of info. And again, I don't care cause  I have not gotten this problem. For those that have, what the heck were you thinking helping Branka?

Also...why in the world does it matter if Bhelen cares about the casteless or not? If he makes their lives better what do his personal feelings matter? Everyone always brings up 'Well...Harrowmont might not care about the casteless but Bhelen doesn't either!' like it's supposed to make a difference and I can't imagine what that difference might be.

He uses the Casteless as tools and bedwarmers. He is a self-centered deepstalker, and would rather choose Harrowmont as King.

After all the direct intervention on your part, Lord Helmi might have been able to take the crown.

If that is the Lord at Tapsters, he might try. He shows both unique grit and the ability to consume enough liquor to think he has a shot.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I choose Harrowmont in hopes that he will be a strong King; even tell him so in a few campaigns. But alas; he folds himself in the tired old garb of the Assembly and serves the Nobles, dying shortly thereafter. As a Paragon, it is my duty to step up and into the role a living anscestor to give my people hope; all of them.

Not a meglamaniac; nor precognative knowing that Harowmont would be disastorous. Just sweet little old me.

...You realize that when you tell him this he tells you that he has no intention of even trying to be a strong king, right? I mean, if he himself insists he won't be strong I think that that is kind of an unrealistic expectation....

Now how was I supposed to know he would say anything comparing strength to being a tyrant? *facepalms*

[Graspiloot]

If you take Zevran with you, you will know Harrowmont's rule will be disastrous. No precognative knowledge.

Also you are so eager to point out we cannot know how disastrous Harrowmont's rule is, but you are so eager to point out what Bhelen does with the casteless, whereas we have no idea at all what the freedoms are that the casteless are given.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Graspiloot wrote...

And you just shattered the hopes and dreams of thousands of dwarves for a better future, you must be feeling pretty good about yourself after that. ^^

Not on my server; perhaps yours. But we already know that I am not up for supporting meglamaniacs like Branka and Bhelen; just weak old men that still beat Bhelen for the throne.

Technically, since Harrowmont leaves them with nothing, the casteless of Dust Town do continue to suffer. That doesn't change if you don't help Branka, since they're suffering the moment the Warden steps into Orzammar. It merely means that you choose a bigot over a reformer. And how do you compare a Paragon who is mentally unbalanced with a politician who will liberate the casteless and reclaim the lost thaigs?

Elhanan wrote...

Graspiloot wrote...

Because your warden is not a megalomaniac, who would rather choose a disastrous, old king in hopes that he will die soon, (reasonable chance that this is not sooner than you), to become the same kind of king after that?

I choose Harrowmont in hopes that he will be a strong King; even tell him so in a few campaigns. But alas; he folds himself in the tired old garb of the Assembly and serves the Nobles, dying shortly thereafter. As a Paragon, it is my duty to step up and into the role a living anscestor to give my people hope; all of them.

Not a meglamaniac; nor precognative knowing that Harowmont would be disastorous. Just sweet little old me.

And given how he manages to accomplish nothing but isolate Orzammar further, why are the politicians of the Assembly going to support you? You're also forgetting that there are other contenders for the throne and they're fighting for power at the epilogue because of the power vacuum that's left in the wake of Harrowmont's death.

Elhanan wrote...

He uses the Casteless as tools and bedwarmers. He is a self-centered deepstalker, and would rather choose Harrowmont as King.

Bhelen gives them more freedoms. Harrowmont leaves them with none. It's not a difficult choice for those of us who think the casteless of Dust Town deserve better than a bigot like Harrowmont.

[ejoslin]

I don't think anyone has claimed that Bhelen cared for the casteless.



What Bhelen DOES care about is the survival of Orzammar. He sees resources that can be used to strengthen his country, and he uses them. The Assembly, and even Harrowmont, seem to care nothing about Orzammar and only about their own houses, even though this mindset is what is destroying Orzammar.

[Aeowyn]

Elhanan wrote...

He uses the Casteless as tools and bedwarmers. He is a self-centered deepstalker, and would rather choose Harrowmont as King.

Omg. What do you think a Casteless prefers Elhanan? To be stuck in that crap hole called Dust Town, wondering if they will be able to eat, drink and survive the day? Or actually be able to take arms against the Darkspawn, in hopes that it will give them and their future generations better rights. If you were poor would you give a damn if you had to
clean the chamber pots of the rich if it would give your child food for the day?

You speak as if you, as Paragon, will take over from Harrowmont once he died? Really? By the looks of it you're just as weak as Harrowmont is, how are you going to be able to make the necessary changes required to make Orzammar stable again if the only way you can even consider doing it is the "nice" way.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 13 janvier 2011 - 07:32 .

[RolandX9]

I chose Harrowmont with my main Warden -- but he's an elf mage who knew zero about dwarven society when he got into Orzammar. Harrowmont was honorable and I got the impression that Bhelen was looking for a place to stick a knife.



...then I read the spoilers. Damn it.

[IanPolaris]

RolandX9 wrote...

I chose Harrowmont with my main Warden -- but he's an elf mage who knew zero about dwarven society when he got into Orzammar. Harrowmont was honorable and I got the impression that Bhelen was looking for a place to stick a knife.

...then I read the spoilers. Damn it.

I think the game was designed to have you make exactly this error if you played a Wardan "too" honorably to the point where you didn't get the whole picture.  If you need to justify supporting Bhelen as an 'honorable' warden simply aknowledge that:

1.  You simply have to speak with both sides given the slimy nature of Dwarven politics.
2.  You are going to have to 'betray' at least one of them in at least a small regard in order to be able to speak with both of them.

If you do speak with both of them, Bhelen gives you unconditional support for your treaty and Harrowmount does not and that's all you really need to know.  In fact if you tell Bhelen, "I just care about the troops" he will aknowledge your antipathy and say that you don't have to love each other in order to help each other.

-Polaris

[Graspiloot]

Yeah I had the same problem on my first playthrough ^^

I wish they would give the Harrowmont rule something positive at least. Now it's about the only choice in the game where it isn't a gray area, but a black or white choice.

[RolandX9]

IanPolaris wrote...

RolandX9 wrote...

I chose Harrowmont with my main Warden -- but he's an elf mage who knew zero about dwarven society when he got into Orzammar. Harrowmont was honorable and I got the impression that Bhelen was looking for a place to stick a knife.

...then I read the spoilers. Damn it.

I think the game was designed to have you make exactly this error if you played a Wardan "too" honorably to the point where you didn't get the whole picture.  If you need to justify supporting Bhelen as an 'honorable' warden simply aknowledge that:

1.  You simply have to speak with both sides given the slimy nature of Dwarven politics.
2.  You are going to have to 'betray' at least one of them in at least a small regard in order to be able to speak with both of them.

If you do speak with both of them, Bhelen gives you unconditional support for your treaty and Harrowmount does not and that's all you really need to know.  In fact if you tell Bhelen, "I just care about the troops" he will aknowledge your antipathy and say that you don't have to love each other in order to help each other.

-Polaris

Oh, I can imagine supporting Harrowmont anyway. Dwarven Noble, anyone? But yeah, if I ever play through again I'm going to hold my nose and support the fratricidal little monster. Maybe the elf might have some sympathy for the folks in the slums, hey?