574 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

My Princess Aeducan put Bhelen on the throne.

She wanted troops for the blight. Harrowmont said he'd put it before the assembly. Last time he did that, trying to get her a trial, he failed miserably, and she couldn't imagine he'd do any better this time.

Of course, she really did kill Trian. And Bhelen was right -- he was better suited to dwarven politics than she was.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:53 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Yep I loved Bhelen's lines when you killed Trian as a DN.



OMG BHELEN IS A KINSLAYER:



.... oops!

Not in my DN game.

[Graspiloot]

What I am wondering though: If noone knew how to make golems except Caridin, then how does he become one?



It is hard to imagine that he would be able to pour himself full of molten lyrium and smith his body after that.

[LobselVith8]

Graspiloot wrote...

What I am wondering though: If noone knew how to make golems except Caridin, then how does he become one?

It is hard to imagine that he would be able to pour himself full of molten lyrium and smith his body after that.

The Anvil was used to make the golems, that's why Caridin secured the thaig and tried to keep people away. He couldn't outright destroy the Anvil because golems aren't allowed to, which is why he needed an outsider to do the deed. It's the reason why Branka wants access to the Anvil, because she can use it to make an army of golems.

[Sarah1281]

Caridin said that his apprentices knew enough to fashion him into a golem but not how to make a control rod. Since Caridin wasn't planning to be immortal and couldn't do all the work himself, they picked a few things up and they were probably all very talented smiths in their own right.

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

If you take Zevran with you, you will know Harrowmont's rule will be disastrous. No precognative knowledge.
Also you are so eager to point out we cannot know how disastrous Harrowmont's rule is, but you are so eager to point out what Bhelen does with the casteless, whereas we have no idea at all what the freedoms are that the casteless are given.

Yes; I could take advice from a failed Assassin if he is still breathing, but I rarely choose to take the Elf to Orzammar.

Bhelen decides to shack up with Rica, which can be confirmed by her letter. And as the criers announce it themselves, it is not such a huge secret. if you are playing either Dwarven Origin, you have direct knowledge.

And I believe the casteless would prefer long term reform rather than serve only as fodder.

Modifié par Elhanan, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:15 .

[BigBad]

Speaking as a player whose favorite origin, and who has completed two full playthroughs with a dwarf commoner, let me assure you that the casteless will prefer whoever provides them with a better quality of life -now- rather than possibly generations into the future. Casteless live in such poverty, under such oppression, that city elves in Ferelden look downright privileged. Being given -any- recognized rights at all in Orzammar is a huge step forward from their current status.



You will be attacked in Dust Town after dealing with Jarvia and smashing the carta because you have just destroyed the livelihoods of dozens of dusters and their families. They do not care that you may have paved the way for a ruler who is more sympathetic to their interests (Bhelen), only that now they have no way to put food on the table today. When survival is a day-to-day concern, who's gonna worry about next month/year/decade?

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

RolandX9 wrote...

I chose Harrowmont with my main Warden -- but he's an elf mage who knew zero about dwarven society when he got into Orzammar. Harrowmont was honorable and I got the impression that Bhelen was looking for a place to stick a knife.

...then I read the spoilers. Damn it.

I think the game was designed to have you make exactly this error if you played a Wardan "too" honorably to the point where you didn't get the whole picture.  If you need to justify supporting Bhelen as an 'honorable' warden simply aknowledge that:

1.  You simply have to speak with both sides given the slimy nature of Dwarven politics.
2.  You are going to have to 'betray' at least one of them in at least a small regard in order to be able to speak with both of them.

If you do speak with both of them, Bhelen gives you unconditional support for your treaty and Harrowmount does not and that's all you really need to know.  In fact if you tell Bhelen, "I just care about the troops" he will aknowledge your antipathy and say that you don't have to love each other in order to help each other.-Polaris

Except that the only way to speak directly with Bhelen involves conspiring to commit fraud by using forged and false documents. As that path takes someone using less than honorable tactics, or ones with alterior motives (ie; plans to sell out Bhelen; was so much fun), you are left to believe this kinkillers promises or not.

Of couse, meta-gaming will help, but this may not always aid those first time players.

[Elhanan]

BigBad wrote...

Speaking as a player whose favorite origin, and who has completed two full playthroughs with a dwarf commoner, let me assure you that the casteless will prefer whoever provides them with a better quality of life -now- rather than possibly generations into the future. Casteless live in such poverty, under such oppression, that city elves in Ferelden look downright privileged. Being given -any- recognized rights at all in Orzammar is a huge step forward from their current status.

You will be attacked in Dust Town after dealing with Jarvia and smashing the carta because you have just destroyed the livelihoods of dozens of dusters and their families. They do not care that you may have paved the way for a ruler who is more sympathetic to their interests (Bhelen), only that now they have no way to put food on the table today. When survival is a day-to-day concern, who's gonna worry about next month/year/decade?

As one whose first Warden was DC, and has played several DC and DN wardens, I still do not believe myself to be qualified to read other's motives. Perhaps other players are more gifted....

And only a few attack the Warden for the loss of Jarvia. The vast majority of Dust Town is business as usual; also meaning that many still take advantage of their own. And I have plans to help; already posted.

[BigBad]

Reading the motives of NPCs can be a subjective matter, true, but it's not blind guessing either. I was simply replying to the idea that the casteless would prefer slow, long-term reform to immediate results. The game gives us many instances where casteless attach themselves to those who give them results now. Beraht, and later Jarvia, are able to gain and retain so much power because they actually can and do give their hirelings a better quality of life over beggars, or cleaning the middens. (The Dwarf Commoner Warden, for all the hardship presented in the origin, is really fairly fortunate compared to most other dusters). Noble-hunters are less concerned with providing noble status for their sons than they are about tagging along and getting some of that status for themselves.

[Elhanan]

I note that those aligning themselves with the Carta are criminals, including the DC Warden. I chose to play mine as Rocky, and when given the opp to repent & reform, I did so even at the expense of my fondness for Rica.

My idea is for immediate action of some measure, but done in a manner that would aid in long term reform.

[BigBad]

I just cannot see a DC siding with Harrowmont. You don't even have the compelling reasons a DN has to side with Bhelen. Harrowmont clearly and unambiguously regards the casteless as less than people. I also played my warden as a fairly noble man, one who wanted to redeem himself from the crimes he committed for Beraht, but did not even consider siding with Harrowmont. Harrowmont and Bhelen are the ultimate products of the Dwarven caste system and life in Orzammar: Bhelen has mastered the underhanded and ruthless tactics needed to survive but discarded the inordinate love of tradition for tradition's sake (something my DC can understand and reconcile), while Harrowmont deliberately devotes himself to supporting the status quo but does so through compromise and remaining reactive instead of proactive (a clear weakness that cannot serve Orzamamar well in the long run, and indeed doesn't according to the epilogue slides).



I think we may have to agree to disagree. Neither of us is going to convert the other. While I think your PC's plan is naive and doomed to failure when taken in the context of established canon lore and setting, I can understand your desire for wish fulfillment in personally engineering a dwarven utopia. While we will not agree on the ultimate results of your RP choices, I do acknowledge those choices as valid for your character.

[Graspiloot]

When presented with the choice for reform now, at the cost of a kinslayer on the throne or a "honourable" man (very relative and contradicting that one) who would support the status quo and given the chance destroy dust town you think the casteless would choose the latter?



lol, just... lol

[Giggles_Manically]

Bhelen won after I talked to him the first time.



There was no talk of asking for troops. It was help me, and I will help you.

I need troops not a squeaky clean conscience.

[Sarah1281]

Bhelen decides to shack up with Rica, which can be confirmed by her letter. And as the criers announce it themselves, it is not such a huge secret. if you are playing either Dwarven Origin, you have direct knowledge.



And I believe the casteless would prefer long term reform rather than serve only as fodder.

And in the short term they'd rather stay in abject poverty? Do you somehow miss just how insanely happy Rica is about the entire thing? That benefactor she gushes about in the origin? That's Bhelen. She tries to attract his attention and she succeeds. He's very good to her. She's not even pregnant yet and he moves her and Kalah out of Dust Town. He takes care of her. Do you think Bhelen would be a better person by just ignoring her? If it weren't for the fact that Bhelen had gotten her out of Dust Town when he did, I don't even want to think about what would have happened to Rica. GW or not, you destroyed the carta and Jarvia for one will be out for her blood. Bhelen saves her.

Except that the only way to speak directly with Bhelen involves conspiring to commit fraud by using forged and false documents. As that path takes someone using less than honorable tactics, or ones with alterior motives (ie; plans to sell out Bhelen; was so much fun), you are left to believe this kinkillers promises or not.

Okay, I get why you're making such a big deal about the kinslaying (even if I think you're just using real world standards and ignoring the context of the game) but now it's a huge deal that forged documents are being used? That just screams modern real-world politics. Why is that so heinous?

I note that those aligning themselves with the Carta are criminals, including the DC Warden. I chose to play mine as Rocky, and when given the opp to repent & reform, I did so even at the expense of my fondness for Rica.



My idea is for immediate action of some measure, but done in a manner that would aid in long term reform.

Oh, you can't be judging them for being criminals! It is illegal for casteless to work. Just by having a job, they're criminals. Now, a casteless can beg, clean out vents, be a noble hunter, or work with the carta. That's pretty much it.



I also just can't understand how you keep talking about giving immediate aid to the casteless by killing the candidate who would do just that (the Blight causes a need for some immediate men to fight) and supporting the one who honestly doesn't give a damn. Once again, the personal morality of the candidates - which I still don't see why it's even remotely relevant - is coming above the good of Orzammar, the casteless, and even your own sister. But at least any less-than-saintly deeds Harrowmont does are better hidden than Bhelen's.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Yes; I could take advice from a failed Assassin if he is still breathing, but I rarely choose to take the Elf to Orzammar.

Fair enough.

Elhanan wrote...

Bhelen decides to shack up with Rica, which can be confirmed by her letter. And as the criers announce it themselves, it is not such a huge secret. if you are playing either Dwarven Origin, you have direct knowledge.

Yes, and her son is the potential heir to the throne.

Elhanan wrote...

And I believe the casteless would prefer long term reform rather than serve only as fodder.

Except Harrowmont isn't going to provide that reform because he believes in tradition, which keeps the casteless poor and abused by the other castes. Only Bhelen provides that reform.

Elhanan wrote...

Except that the only way to speak directly with Bhelen involves conspiring to commit fraud by using forged and false documents. As that path takes someone using less than honorable tactics, or ones with alterior motives (ie; plans to sell out Bhelen; was so much fun), you are left to believe this kinkillers promises or not.

Of couse, meta-gaming will help, but this may not always aid those first time players.

Harrowmont's crier clearly attacks Bhelen for his support of change for the casteless, so it doesn't take any metagaming to realize how bad Harrowmont's rule will be for Dust Town. The guard near the Deep Roads is going to reveal that Bhelen also plans to retake the lost thaigs. And the falsified documents were provided by Bhelen's ally, VG, not Bhelen. The entire questconcerns tricking people who Harrowmont paid to vote for him.

[Giggles_Manically]

Wow so apparently people want to live in squalor in the vain hope that the system will reform.

When that system has kept them down in that condition since it was created.

Even when most of them can fight fairly well they want to stay criminals and poor.



Guess its a good thing so that the warden can sleep at night I guess. Just have to leave thousands of people... oh wait most dwarves dont consider casteless dwarves people.

[IanPolaris]

OK everyone, here's another clue. When you first arrive in the commons, you see the fight between Bhelen and Harrowmount's supporters. Immediately to the right of the captain of the guard you will find in the latest patch Nerev Helmi who shills for Harrowmount in the guise of bringing the warden up to date w/r/t Orzammar UNLESS you are a dwarf commoner.



You talk to her as a dwarf commoner and she finds out you are a warden she says, "There aren't any dwarven wardens this generation except....." then she pauses and looks at you like a piece of filth...."oh, you are THAT Warden. I thought you were a sufacer required to wear the brand." She pomptly goes away like she was polluted and cuts off the conversation.



If that doesn't tell you which side supports the casteless (or rather doesn't support them) then nothing will.



-Polaris

[Sarah1281]

I think that Nerav was more scared than snobby but it was definitely because of casteless prejudice. Compare how civil she is to a non-dwarf and how absolutely thrilled she is to see the DN.

[Elhanan]

BigBad wrote...

I just cannot see a DC siding with Harrowmont. You don't even have the compelling reasons a DN has to side with Bhelen. Harrowmont clearly and unambiguously regards the casteless as less than people. I also played my warden as a fairly noble man, one who wanted to redeem himself from the crimes he committed for Beraht, but did not even consider siding with Harrowmont. Harrowmont and Bhelen are the ultimate products of the Dwarven caste system and life in Orzammar: Bhelen has mastered the underhanded and ruthless tactics needed to survive but discarded the inordinate love of tradition for tradition's sake (something my DC can understand and reconcile), while Harrowmont deliberately devotes himself to supporting the status quo but does so through compromise and remaining reactive instead of proactive (a clear weakness that cannot serve Orzamamar well in the long run, and indeed doesn't according to the epilogue slides).

My first DC Warden viewed Bhelen as another copy of Beraht; a power driven lord that was also taking advantage of Rica. He never obtained the chance to speak to him directly, as he was unwilling to accept Gavorn and his methods. So he joined Team Harrowmont.

I think we may have to agree to disagree. Neither of us is going to convert the other. While I think your PC's plan is naive and doomed to failure when taken in the context of established canon lore and setting, I can understand your desire for wish fulfillment in personally engineering a dwarven utopia. While we will not agree on the ultimate results of your RP choices, I do acknowledge those choices as valid for your character.

Agreed; good gaming!

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

When presented with the choice for reform now, at the cost of a kinslayer on the throne or a "honourable" man (very relative and contradicting that one) who would support the status quo and given the chance destroy dust town you think the casteless would choose the latter?

lol, just... lol

Since Bhelen is now dead, guess they will have to make the best of it, as will we all. Next....

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Bhelen won after I talked to him the first time.

There was no talk of asking for troops. It was help me, and I will help you.
I need troops not a squeaky clean conscience.

And only one of my Wardens ever heard that kind of speech. But I was planning on choosing harrowmont anyway. And if you wish to believe the honorable word of a Decepticon like Bhelen, that is your choice.....

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 And in the short term they'd rather stay in abject poverty? Do you somehow miss just how insanely happy Rica is about the entire thing? That benefactor she gushes about in the origin? That's Bhelen. She tries to attract his attention and she succeeds. He's very good to her. She's not even pregnant yet and he moves her and Kalah out of Dust Town. He takes care of her. Do you think Bhelen would be a better person by just ignoring her? If it weren't for the fact that Bhelen had gotten her out of Dust Town when he did, I don't even want to think about what would have happened to Rica. GW or not, you destroyed the carta and Jarvia for one will be out for her blood. Bhelen saves her.

Short term help could be done via a single House; long term with allied sources of economic, medical, etc aid, and provisions, as well as jobs.

Okay, I get why you're making such a big deal about the kinslaying (even if I think you're just using real world standards and ignoring the context of the game) but now it's a huge deal that forged documents are being used? That just screams modern real-world politics. Why is that so heinous?

Why anyone proceeds with Gavorn knowing full well he is lying every step of the way appears either foolish, or psychic.

 Oh, you can't be judging them for being criminals! It is illegal for casteless to work. Just by having a job, they're criminals. Now, a casteless can beg, clean out vents, be a noble hunter, or work with the carta. That's pretty much it.

I also just can't understand how you keep talking about giving immediate aid to the casteless by killing the candidate who would do just that (the Blight causes a need for some immediate men to fight) and supporting the one who honestly doesn't give a damn. Once again, the personal morality of the candidates - which I still don't see why it's even remotely relevant - is coming above the good of Orzammar, the casteless, and even your own sister. But at least any less-than-saintly deeds Harrowmont does are better hidden than Bhelen's.

Then he deserves to win; has a better second at least.

It matter not if Bhelen or Harrowmont do not care for the Casteless; a Dwarven Warden does (or should). Even when I allow Bhelen to get the throne, he condemns himself in my sight by ordering Harrowmont to death w/ a trial. Sound famllar? In my thoughts, I then aid Harrowmont via conscription and give him the job of leading the surface armies against the Blight.

You guys wish to view it all as gloom and doom; fine. I see life is better with Bhelen out of the chair.

Modifié par Elhanan, 14 janvier 2011 - 06:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...



My first DC Warden viewed Bhelen as another copy of Beraht; a power driven lord that was also taking advantage of Rica. He never obtained the chance to speak to him directly, as he was unwilling to accept Gavorn and his methods. So he joined Team Harrowmont.

How was he taking advantage of Rica? By giving her and her mother a good home? Recognizing his relationship with her? Providing for her long before he even knew that she was going to give him a son? I really don't see how this makes any sense. I can see if you're trying to gain power (even though others are going to fight you tooth and nail because of the power vacuum left after Harrowmont's death) but I can't see how you dismiss that Rica is very happy with Bhelen.

Elhanan wrote...



Since Bhelen is now dead, guess they will have to make the best of it, as will we all. Next....

You sound like you're going to be very popular in Dust Town.

Elhanan wrote...



And only one of my Wardens ever heard that kind of speech. But I was planning on choosing harrowmont anyway. And if you wish to believe the honorable word of a Decepticon like Bhelen, that is your choice.....

The word of a man who gained power over his brothers in comparison to a weak-willed bigot who will lead Orzammar to ruins, you mean?

[Giggles_Manically]

You fell down down the stupid stairs this morning and cracked your skull this morning huh?