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[Elhanan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

.... Except Harrowmont isn't going to provide that reform because he believes in tradition, which keeps the casteless poor and abused by the other castes. Only Bhelen provides that reform.

 
And maybe the new Paragon, House Helmi and other allies, etc.  

Harrowmont's crier clearly attacks Bhelen for his support of change for the casteless, so it doesn't take any metagaming to realize how bad Harrowmont's rule will be for Dust Town. The guard near the Deep Roads is going to reveal that Bhelen also plans to retake the lost thaigs. And the falsified documents were provided by Bhelen's ally, VG, not Bhelen. The entire questconcerns tricking people who Harrowmont paid to vote for him.

If you are able to equate Bhelen's actions (eg; murder, blackmail, interfering with the Proving, planting false evidence, etc) with those of Harrowmont's pre-epilogue (eg; paying officials), then Orzammar has no real hope anyway, IMO.

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Wow so apparently people want to live in squalor in the vain hope that the system will reform.
When that system has kept them down in that condition since it was created.
Even when most of them can fight fairly well they want to stay criminals and poor.

Guess its a good thing so that the warden can sleep at night I guess. Just have to leave thousands of people... oh wait most dwarves dont consider casteless dwarves people.

Sleeping just fine; Dwarves do not dream much after Blights. And we plan to get things rolling along soon, even before Harrowmont passes.

[Sarah1281]

Short term help could be done via a single House; long term with allied sources of economic, medical, etc aid, and provisions, as well as jobs.

You really think that the new house that you founded has the resources to single-handedly support all of the casteless for at LEAST a few years?

Why anyone proceeds with Gavorn knowing full well he is lying every step of the way appears either foolish, or psychic.

I disagree. Knowing that Vartag is willing to forge documents so that it looks like the people that Harrowmont has been bribing into supporting him does not mean that he's incapable of telling the truth. It just means that he's willing to do whatever it takes to discredit Harrowmont and win the election. The fact you catch him in a lie is a reason to take everything he says with a grain of salt but it is NOT a reason to decide that he's lying about helping you. I do not believe that he helps you because he made a promise and feels that those should be kept. I believe he helps you because he is the king of Orzammar and knows full well how much of a threat darkspawn are and how they are never more dangerous than during a Blight.



It's not like I or any of my Wardens have ever doubted that Harrowmont ALSO wanted to stop the Blight, just that his desire to ask the Assembly to send troops seemed like a lot less of a sure thing than Bhelen's pledge to send them. And it seemed like it would take longer, as well.

Then he deserves to win; has a better second at least.



It matter not if Bhelen or Harrowmont do not care for the Casteless; a Dwarven Warden does (or should). Even when I allow Bhelen to get the throne, he condemns himself in my sight by ordering Harrowmont to death w/ a trial. Sound famllar? In my thoughts, I then aid Harrowmont via conscription and give him the job of leading the surface armies against the Blight.

Or it could just mean that he's older so he has more experience hiding things, was far less high-profile when doing things, and didn't do something quite so noticeable as taking out the heir to the throne. Honestly, though, if it hadn't been for the DN opening (which no one but the DN Warden should be aware about) the only way that you can be sure that Bhelen had Trian killed and the DN framed is if you double-cross him and find those papers.



Ordering Harrowmont killed without a trial...you know, that does remind me of the Landsmeet where Loghain and Alistair can both be executed without a trial and Eamon wants Alistair to execute Anora but he either balks at the notion or recognizes that he needs her in case he dies during the Blight (depending on whether he is hardened). We don't know nearly enough about how Orzammar works to know if Harrowmont even should have gotten a trial. And for that matter, what would he have been tried for? The DN had a short trial they couldn't attend because it wasn't proven that they killed Trian. Everyone knew that Harrowmont had tried to take the throne and it's not shocking that the king has the power to order people executed. Would a show trial that had all sorts of fabricated evidence or accused Harrowmont trying to take the throne of being treason had been better? Would you have been happier if Harrowmont had been banished to the surface (Harrowmont wouldn't be)? Do you think it would have been a good idea for Bhelen to just let Harrowmont go about his daily life and continue to use half of the Assembly to oppose everything Bhelen tried to do?

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Short term help could be done via a single House; long term with allied sources of economic, medical, etc aid, and provisions, as well as jobs.

In order to be part of your House they would need to be able to provide proof that they're related to you, which was part of the sub-plot of the DC Origin with Rica. As for the rest, I don't even see how you'll become King when you'll be fighting other factions for power, and I doubt the Assembly is going to vote you in when other members want to have power for themselves.

Elhanan wrote...

Why anyone proceeds with Gavorn knowing full well he is lying every step of the way appears either foolish, or psychic.

You mean besides knowing that Harrowmont's a bigot and Bhelen's a reformer, via the criers?

Elhanan wrote...
Then he deserves to win; has a better second at least.  

Which is why the plight of the casteless doesn't change when Harrowmont is elected King, the thaigs aren't reclaimed, and Orzammar is isolated from the surface. I don't see much hope for the people in your Orzammar.

Elhanan wrote...

It matter not if Bhelen or Harrowmont do not care for the Casteless; a Dwarven Warden does (or should). Even when I allow Bhelen to get the throne, he condemns himself in my sight by ordering Harrowmont to death w/ a trial. Sound famllar?

He wants to consolidate power. He then uses his power to give the casteless more freedoms, retake the lost thaigs, and expand trade with the surface. He's a reformer.

Elhanan wrote...
 
In my thoughts, I then aid Harrowmont via conscription and give him the job of leading the surface armies against the Blight.

I'm sure Bhelen would simply let you take him away, because it's not like he was an entire dwarven army under his command or anything like that.

Elhanan wrote...

You guys wish to view it all as gloom and doom; fine. I see life is better with Bhelen out of the chair.

Except for the casteless, the traders, and the rest of Orzammar... but I'm certain it's much better for the nobles in the Assembly.

[Sarah1281]

And maybe the new Paragon, House Helmi and other allies, etc.

Ah yes, those 'other allies' that you are counting on who we have no indication of existing among the nobles and quite a bit of indication that they don't. And you don't know Lord Helmi would stand behind you when the rest of his house opposes you (including the mother who tells him how to vote).

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

OK everyone, here's another clue. When you first arrive in the commons, you see the fight between Bhelen and Harrowmount's supporters. Immediately to the right of the captain of the guard you will find in the latest patch Nerev Helmi who shills for Harrowmount in the guise of bringing the warden up to date w/r/t Orzammar UNLESS you are a dwarf commoner.

You talk to her as a dwarf commoner and she finds out you are a warden she says, "There aren't any dwarven wardens this generation except....." then she pauses and looks at you like a piece of filth...."oh, you are THAT Warden. I thought you were a sufacer required to wear the brand." She pomptly goes away like she was polluted and cuts off the conversation.

If that doesn't tell you which side supports the casteless (or rather doesn't support them) then nothing will.-Polaris

So you equate the reaction of this Noble with that of all? Seems rather prejudgmental of you, don't it?

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think that Nerav was more scared than snobby but it was definitely because of casteless prejudice. Compare how civil she is to a non-dwarf and how absolutely thrilled she is to see the DN.

In Game, I cannot; Only play one Warden at a time.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...
 
And maybe the new Paragon, House Helmi and other allies, etc.  

Wow, two people over an Assembly of dozens of others who won't vote in your favor. Sounds like you're going to be as successful as Harrowmont.

Elhanan wrote...

If you are able to equate Bhelen's actions (eg; murder, blackmail, interfering with the Proving, planting false evidence, etc) with those of Harrowmont's pre-epilogue (eg; paying officials), then Orzammar has no real hope anyway, IMO.

You mean the actions of a man who reforms Orzammar (helping the casteless get more freedoms, gaining back the lost thaigs, improving relations with the surface) over the inept handling of a bigot who sends mercenaries to murder me in the Deep Roads for not siding with him? Orzammar has no hope with Harrowmont, especially with the civil war that erupts in the wake of his death.

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You fell down down the stupid stairs this morning and cracked your skull this morning huh?

Quite possibly; thought I could get a reasonable discourse with you.....

[Sarah1281]

So you equate the reaction of this Noble with that of all? Seems rather prejudgmental of you, don't it?

Not really. Nerav is not really an important character. She exists to tell you (through an admittedly pro-Harrowmont filter since her house supports him) the state of Orzammar and the rumors about Bhelen. Why in the world wouldn't she, the one who tells you about the status quo, hold typical dwarven views? We hear about how unconvential Lord Helmi is when he feels that the caste system is stupid and nothing about how Nerav's fear of an armed and dangerous casteless is unusual. If anything, her fear and desire to get away from you are probably put in there to remind you of what the situation for the casteless is now that you're back in Orzammar.

[Elhanan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

....The word of a man who gained power over his brothers in comparison to a weak-willed bigot who will lead Orzammar to ruins, you mean?

Will take the weak-willed bigot over a fraticidal murderer most every day.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I think that Nerav was more scared than snobby but it was definitely because of casteless prejudice. Compare how civil she is to a non-dwarf and how absolutely thrilled she is to see the DN.

In Game, I cannot; Only play one Warden at a time.

I wasn't really talking about in-game as far as the comparison. I gave my in-game perception that Nerav was more fearful than hateful and added the meta-gaming comparison in her treatment of other Wardens.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

....The word of a man who gained power over his brothers in comparison to a weak-willed bigot who will lead Orzammar to ruins, you mean?

Will take the weak-willed bigot over a fraticidal murderer most every day.

I still don't get this. Why in the world does the fact that Bhelen had a hand in the deaths (or near-death) of his two brothers and his father died in some part due to grief that for the sake of keeping the Aeducans in power he allowed it to happen mean that his reforms are useless? Why does the deaths of two or three people mean that Orzammar is better off not changing at all and continuing to stagnate and die? You keep talking about how he's a horrible person but why does that matter if the epilogue makes it clear that he saves Orzammar? I know in-game you don't know the epilogue but you've made it pretty clear that even taking metagaming into account you think Harrowmont is the right way to go.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Will take the weak-willed bigot over a fraticidal murderer most every day.

Bhelen's not the only one who gets blood on his hands, given that Harrowmont's men try to murder the Warden in the Deep Roads on the search for Paragon Branka. The same bigot who uses golems to murder an entire town of men, women, and children sounds a lot worse than a man who defeats both of his brothers in dwarven politics.

[Elhanan]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Bhelen's not the only one who gets blood on his hands, given that Harrowmont's men try to murder the Warden in the Deep Roads on the search for Paragon Branka. The same bigot who uses golems to murder an entire town of men, women, and children sounds a lot worse than a man who defeats both of his brothers in dwarven politics.

I do not directly fault Bhelen or Harrowmont for the fanatical attacks seen in the Roads, or in Orzammar. Tis more of the political nonsense I hope to change once Harrowmont yields the throne to the Warden... eventually.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

....The word of a man who gained power over his brothers in comparison to a weak-willed bigot who will lead Orzammar to ruins, you mean?

Will take the weak-willed bigot over a fraticidal murderer most every day.

I still don't get this. Why in the world does the fact that Bhelen had a hand in the deaths (or near-death) of his two brothers and his father died in some part due to grief that for the sake of keeping the Aeducans in power he allowed it to happen mean that his reforms are useless? Why does the deaths of two or three people mean that Orzammar is better off not changing at all and continuing to stagnate and die? You keep talking about how he's a horrible person but why does that matter if the epilogue makes it clear that he saves Orzammar? I know in-game you don't know the epilogue but you've made it pretty clear that even taking metagaming into account you think Harrowmont is the right way to go.

Because for all my Warden's abilities, his hindsight ain't 20/20. I do not compare epilogues while in character; just the men and their deeds. Bhelen tends to lose every time.

As for myself, I also dismiss taking a homicidal, lying, deceiptful Noble like Bhelen as King. I prefer morality in those that lead, and while Harrowmont is no innocent, he ain't Bhelen.

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

I do not directly fault Bhelen or Harrowmont for the fanatical attacks seen in the Roads, or in Orzammar. Tis more of the political nonsense I hope to change once Harrowmont yields the throne to the Warden... eventually.

He never yields the throne to the Warden. He dies, and everyone else fights for the throne because of the power vacuum his death leaves.

Elhanan wrote...

Because for all my Warden's abilities, his hindsight ain't 20/20. I do not compare epilogues while in character; just the men and their deeds. Bhelen tends to lose every time.

As for myself, I also dismiss taking a homicidal, lying, deceiptful Noble like Bhelen as King. I prefer morality in those that lead, and while Harrowmont is no innocent, he ain't Bhelen.

That's clear when Harrowmont murders the men, women, and children of Dust Town with his golems...

Modifié par LobselVith8, 14 janvier 2011 - 08:18 .

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

As for myself, I also dismiss taking a homicidal, lying, deceiptful Noble like Bhelen as King. I prefer morality in those that lead, and while Harrowmont is no innocent, he ain't Bhelen.

I prefer effectiveness.  As for morality, I don't think either is particularly moral and Bhelens policies are far better both for the Warden and for Orzammar.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I do not directly fault Bhelen or Harrowmont for the fanatical attacks seen in the Roads, or in Orzammar. Tis more of the political nonsense I hope to change once Harrowmont yields the throne to the Warden... eventually.

He never yields the throne to the Warden. He dies, and everyone else fights for the throne because of the power vacuum his death leaves.

In fairness to Elhanan, I do think that Harrowmount at some point indicates that you will be his selected heir.  Unfortunately as you say, the Assembly doesn't recognize this (nor why should they given a Dwarven warden can't have kids...at least not without extreme difficulty...and has an expiration date of less than thirty years).

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wether or not a King of Orzammar can have kids is irrelevant, since the next king is elected anyway. But being a Grey Warden is probably what puts a dent in his candidacy for kingship. A Grey Warden's first and foremost task is to neutralize a Blight, a King's first and foremost role is to protect his people. Those two responsibilities does not go well together.

[Sarah1281]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wether or not a King of Orzammar can have kids is irrelevant, since the next king is elected anyway. But being a Grey Warden is probably what puts a dent in his candidacy for kingship. A Grey Warden's first and foremost task is to neutralize a Blight, a King's first and foremost role is to protect his people. Those two responsibilities does not go well together.

I doubt that will be a problem. Chances are there will be no Blights in the next thirty years and Orzammar is the one place that ALWAYS takes darkspawn seriously. Also, it's not out of the question to stop actively being a Warden like Alistair does. Honestly, I can't see being a GW as anything but a positive in the eyes of the dwarves. It's not like they know about the darker aspects of being a Warden anyway and Bhelen thoughtfully provides you with an infant heir before he dies. The path to the kingship wouldn't be easy, I don't think, but the GW thing would be the least of it and should you pull it off little Endrin is a ready-made heir (assuming you didn't have one with Mardy).

[Sarah1281]

In fairness to Elhanan, I do think that Harrowmount at some point indicates that you will be his selected heir. Unfortunately as you say, the Assembly doesn't recognize this (nor why should they given a Dwarven warden can't have kids...at least not without extreme difficulty...and has an expiration date of less than thirty years).

There really isn't any indication that Harrowmont picks you as his heir and since he's such a weak king they could just ignore this. Twenty-five years or so isn't a bad reign so why should that stop them? Maric ruled for less than twenty-five years and, again, no one knows about the lack of fertility.

[Graspiloot]

I think it is said in the game that a GW can't be a king, because they can't really mix in politics. The only thing they care about is killing the darkspawn and while I agree that Orzammar is the front line it is a really fine line to thread.



I'm starting to think that the first time Elhanan walked into Orzammar he heard the crier shout: "Bhelen is a bad, bad man." and he just went with it.

[Sarah1281]

If anyone said it, it was probably Duncan or Riordan. Nothing stops Alistair from being king (Duncan may be dead but Riordan is right there) and despite whatever 'GWs can't have titles' policy may or may not be enforced (the First Warden sure loves that Arling in Awakening), in Orzammar there is a law that says that you can keep your caste if you go to the surface as a GW and so I don't see why Orzammar would care at all what nations on the surface or Weisshaupt has to say about making a Warden a king if they had already decided on it. GIven that as a DN it's possible to bring up your own former claim to the throne and Branka can operate the entire time under the assumption that you're out to get the throne for yourself even though everyone knows you're a GW and no one says that that precludes you from ever taking the throne, I'd say that your GW status isn't really a big obstacle.

Edit: Any King/Queen Wardens would, of course, need to take the Alistair approach and stop being a Warden as much as you can. I mean, you're always going to be physically tainted and what not but that doesn't mean you have to take orders from Weisshaupt or anything else Warden-like.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 15 janvier 2011 - 08:39 .

[Elhanan]

Graspiloot wrote...

I think it is said in the game that a GW can't be a king, because they can't really mix in politics. The only thing they care about is killing the darkspawn and while I agree that Orzammar is the front line it is a really fine line to thread.

I'm starting to think that the first time Elhanan walked into Orzammar he heard the crier shout: "Bhelen is a bad, bad man." and he just went with it.

Does it hurt? First times are always the hardest.... *bazinga*