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[Giggles_Manically]

I think he says:

Prince Bhelen is brilliant, and subtle as sin.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I think he says:
Prince Bhelen is brilliant, and subtle as sin.

And that's the best description of Bhelen.

[Giggles_Manically]

Ah! Here it is!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Sadly, unless you convince him otherwise, he is a Harrowmont supporter, because for some reason, thinks Harrowmont would be more open to change. It's nice to be able to correct him if playing a DC supporting Bhelen.

Helmi is incompentent, but at least he realizes that Bhelen is brilliant.

I wouldn't call him incompetant, just misguided. Bhelen hasn't exactly put forward the best face for change, even if he's the only one endorsing it. Helmi doesn't really like either candidate, but at the time of your first convo with him, he states he slightly favors Harrowmont because Harrowmont seems more "forgiving". If you are a DC, you can inform him about your sister Rica and Bhelen and little Endrin, and he will be surprised, even a bit relieved to learn that Bhelen is more progressive and forward thinking than originally believed.

Plus, its Helmi who pretty much lays out what is wrong with the system in the first place, and how it needs to change. He's not terribly upset when you get him to change his vote to Bhelen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

He's incompetent because he isn't subtle and while he knows something is wrong, he seems to be content getting drunk in Taspers and making himself look like the joke of the Assembly. In another words he does nothing except look like an embarrassment. I am not impressed.

And hence why Orzammar needs someone like Bhelen. Not Helmi. Or a dozen of them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 janvier 2011 - 10:07 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Or a thousand of them.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I really don't understand the concept of putting a leader's personal morality above what he will do for the country.

For my HN it was the belief that participating in something dirty for (purportedly) good ends would just make it easier to justify doing the same thing for lesser reasons. Then again just because. The fatal first step, as it were. She *also* didn't believe Bhelen's election promises could be trusted once he'd tried pulling the wool over *her* eyes, like I said, but personal honour was a part of her character that doesn't get corrupted until Awakenings.

It just strikes me as irresponsible to go 'Yeah, you might lead Orzammar into a new age of prosperity and retake land from the darkspawn for the first time in generations but...you forged some documents and I think you might have killed a relative or two. Bring on the slow death by stagnation and casteless-hater who is at least polite about it!' (Obviously paraphrased)

*shrug* If you say so. I don't pretend to roleplay perfect characters, just ones that have to live and learn.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He's incompetent because he isn't subtle and while he knows something is wrong, he seems to be content getting drunk in Taspers and making himself look like the joke of the Assembly. In another words he does nothing except look like an embarrassment. I am not impressed.

And hence why Orzammar needs someone like Bhelen. Not Helmi. Or a dozen of them.

Seeing as Helmi lacks any visible political ambitions, its unlikely that would ever be an issue.

As far as him sitting around Tapsters getting drunk, good for him. I wish more nobles would do that. Sit around and get drunk and remain harmless jokes than have them actually attempting to rule, which they do poorly. And leave the task of ruling to those actually qualified to do so.

[mousestalker]

Threads like this need a soundtrack.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
As far as him sitting around Tapsters getting drunk, good for him. I wish more nobles would do that. Sit around and get drunk and remain harmless jokes than have them actually attempting to rule, which they do poorly. And leave the task of ruling to those actually qualified to do so.

Sure. That wouldn't make them any less incompetent. It would just mean that they become less of a nuissance.

[wizardryforever]

Okay, what exactly happens if Bhelen is made king?  Let me see if I can recall

• The casteless are given more rights
• Deep Roads expeditions are successful, leading to much reconquered territory
• Trade with the surface increases
• The Assembly is abolished, setting up Bhelen as dictator

I'm unsure how much the first three justify the last one, but that is part of what makes this choice so awesome, as (despite what some people claim) there is no obvious choice, especially without metagame knowledge.  Bhelen is a treacherous snake in all of his dealings, and there are many reasons to not believe his claims to want what's best for Orzammar, especially the moment right after the king is chosen (whoever you choose).  I am not one of those people who feels the end justifies the means, and this is why my initial decsion was to pick Harrowmont.

There is not anything really "wrong" with picking Bhelen, I just feel guilty whenever I pick him, even knowing what he ultimately accomplishes.  People just need to understand that there is no "good" option to this decision, it's all grey.

[KnightofPhoenix]

wizardryforever wrote... People just need to understand that there is no "good" option to this decision, it's all grey.
[*]

Only to people who bring up morality in politics as if it should have any real relevence except for their own conscience (for the sake of argument, let's assume that moralists are being perfectly coherent when they are saying that Harrowmont and the system he stands for is still better than the acts of one man). 

The results and everything we see in the game that is material and not abstractions based on ideals that disconnect with reality, makes it obvious to me that Harrowmont is not a "good" option or even a "grey" one when picking him as a leader responsable for the life of a dying people.

The only thing that would act as a proper reason for picking Harrowmont is experience. Hwoever his career seems to be based on compromise and ass kissing, so if that's all the experience he has, it might as well be worth nothing. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 09 janvier 2011 - 10:42 .

[Eber]

You do not need to justify abolishing the Assembly. That is in itself a good thing. The Assembly is the root cause of all things bad in dwarven society. As much as the nobles go on about plotting against eachother they are all part of an understanding where perserving their own rights is paramount. They all scoff at and ignore non nobles and their plights. As it should be. It is a matter of self preservation. An all noble parliament has only one common interest, to preserve the priviliges of the nobles. As long as it exists in it's current form that will always be the primary goal of the Assembly.

Bhelen's goal will be to build a strong country. To do so he will need to get the casteless working and integrate them into society. It's all good.

[Giggles_Manically]

Well said Eber.

[wizardryforever]

Eber wrote...

You do not need to justify abolishing the Assembly. That is in itself a good thing. The Assembly is the root cause of all things bad in dwarven society. As much as the nobles go on about plotting against eachother they are all part of an understanding where perserving their own rights is paramount. They all scoff at and ignore non nobles and their plights. As it should be. It is a matter of self preservation. An all noble parliament has only one common interest, to preserve the priviliges of the nobles. As long as it exists in it's current form that will always be the primary goal of the Assembly.

Bhelen's goal will be to build a strong country. To do so he will need to get the casteless working and integrate them into society. It's all good.

The Assembly is not working correctly, true.  It's a poorly implemented idea solely because only nobles have a voice.  This does not mean that it should be abolished to establish an absolute monarchy.  It should be reformed not abolished, which is something that Harrowmont at least tries to do (IIRC).  Bhelen abolishes the Assembly not because it is an inefficient group of corrupt nobles, but because they threaten his power.  Remember his claims that Harrowmont was using the Assembly to pull a coup.  This is a danger to him and his heirs, so he abolished it.  It had nothing to do with the good of Orzammar, and now you have Orzammar ruled by the Well Intentioned Extremist.  When is that ever a good thing?  It would be an interesting change of pace if it was, but I kinda doubt it.  I fully expect this to be one of those grey situations that people should be able to see either way, with the same kind of partisan bickering that we have in reality.  Ah well.

[Sarah1281]

It should be reformed not abolished, which is something that Harrowmont at least tries to do (IIRC).

And how does he do that?



Anvil epilogue: In Orzammar, King Harrowmont quickly put down Bhelen's rebellion and then passed a series of laws to please the clan lords. Unfortunately, that isolated the dwarves even further from the surface. Caste restrictions and the rights of the nobles both grew, and trade with the human lands was all but cut off.



No Anvil epilogue: In Orzammar, King Harrowmont found himself in a protracted battle against Bhelen's rebellion that left him unable to gain the stability he needed. The clan lords objected to many of his measures in the Assembly, and only his efforts to increase the dwarves' isolation from the surface met with any success.



Without the Anvil, Harrowmont can't do much and he can only increase isolation. With the Anvil, Harrowmont can do whatever he wants and what does he do? He makes the caste system worse and just increases noble power. He caters to the nobles. There is nothing there about trying to change anything for the better and if you talk to him, he seems to think the Assembly is what is supposed to be making all of the decisions. When they show themselves hopelessly corrupt, he blames Bhelen and doesn't say anything about the lords all letting themselves be bribed into supporting Bhelen.

Bhelen abolishes the Assembly not because it is an inefficient group of corrupt nobles, but because they threaten his power.

I doubt that.



Shaper: The prince consulted me before his father died. He wanted to know about King Bemot, the last king to rule during a Blight. I told him Bemot made many changes during his rule. The Assembly was even disbanded for a two-year period. Bemot declared that, in times of war, the Warrior Caste answered directly to the king and all voting was suspended. Bhelen seemed quite interested.



Harrowmont didn't step up to challenge Bhelen until after Endrin's death or someone would have asked Endrin about Harrowmont's claim of being the preferred heir. Why would Bhelen feel the need to disband the Assembly to protect his claim and that of his heirs before it was even challenged? Far more likely that he knew that if he wanted to pass his reforms, he'd need the Assembly out of the way.

[Giggles_Manically]

I am sure that when Orzamar caves in on itself and darkspawn are killing people that we can all sit back and say:

But at least I chose the nice guy!

[Elhanan]

Note that much of the problem in Harrowmont's reign are due to distractions from Bhelen's rebellions. But that does not matter to me because the darkspawn are still opposed, the Casteless have a champion in the Warden and their new House, and that I acted in noble character and chose against the dross of Aeducan.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I am sure that when Orzamar caves in on itself and darkspawn are killing people that we can all sit back and say:
But at least I chose the nice guy!

The decisions of one of my game characters will haunt me to the end of my days, I'm sure.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:14 .

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I am sure that when Orzamar caves in on itself and darkspawn are killing people that we can all sit back and say:
But at least I chose the nice guy!

Wow, very dramatic.  Except none of that happens, and Bhelen causes civil unrest just as much as Harrowmont.

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I am sure that when Orzamar caves in on itself and darkspawn are killing people that we can all sit back and say:
But at least I chose the nice guy!

Wow, very dramatic.  Except none of that happens, and Bhelen causes civil unrest just as much as Harrowmont.

Who causes Orzamar to be closed off: Harrowmont
Who restricts that Castes even more: Harrowmont
Who stops any military aid from Orzamar: Harrowmont
Who crushes all of Dust Town to dust: Harrowmont
Who lets the nobles run all over him: Harrowmont

Yeah I am so sure that Bhelen has huge issues like this going on during his reign and causes Orzamar to crumble faster and faster. 

[IanPolaris]

Elhanan wrote...

Note that much of the problem in Harrowmont's reign are due to distractions from Bhelen's rebellions. But that does not matter to me because the darkspawn are still opposed, the Casteless have a champion in the Warden and their new House, and that I acted in noble character and chose against the dross of Aeducan.

Oh sure, a Warden house with no heirs and no real prospect of any (and don't count the son you got from Mardy either since he will be in Harrowmount's 'protective custody').

Have fun being outvoted in the Assembly 78-2 until you go to your calling and the nobles promptly forget about you and further marginalize your 'house'.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I am sure that when Orzamar caves in on itself and darkspawn are killing people that we can all sit back and say:
But at least I chose the nice guy!

Wow, very dramatic.  Except none of that happens, and Bhelen causes civil unrest just as much as Harrowmont.

Does Bhelen send golems to raze dust town to the ground?
Is Bhelen's rule marked with civil war as much as Harrowmont who needs golems to win (when Bhelen doesn't)?

Bhelen's ability to disolve the Assembly, which resorted to desperation tactics (assassination) instead of civil war, with ease is proof that his reign is in fact much more stable than Harrowmont's. All of his opponents have either been eliminated or severily punished already, so I see no civil unrest at all. Not as much as Harrowmont anyways. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Harrowmont dies/is killed soon enough, IIRC. The dwarves can pick their own messiah rather than have the Grey Wardens wipe their asses for them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Who causes Orzamar to be closed off: Harrowmont
Who restricts that Castes even more: Harrowmont
Who stops any military aid from Orzamar: Harrowmont
Who crushes all of Dust Town to dust: Harrowmont
Who lets the nobles run all over him: Harrowmont

Yeah I am so sure that Bhelen has huge issues like this going on during his reign and causes Orzamar to crumble faster and faster. 

Who fails to act against Branka and almost causes a surface invasion of Orzammar: Harrowmont.

Truly, no one has ever succeeded in being that much of an epic fail except maybe Cailan.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:25 .