574 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Harrowmont dies/is killed soon enough, IIRC. The dwarves can pick their own messiah rather than have the Grey Wardens wipe their asses for them.

You mean the Assembly is going to be wise enough to pick someone different than Harrowmont?
I really don't see that happening anytime soon, until it's too late.

[Giggles_Manically]

Harrowmont is probably a representation of how being too attached to tradition fails you in the end.



Like Endrin:

DURR HURR Even though there is another city out there that we cut off DURR HURR they should still follow our lead because I say so and so does Mr Tradition. HURR DURR.



Bhelen is the only dwarf who sees what tradition would lead to, Harrowmont would rather see Orzamar raised to the ground before changing a single tradition.

[mousestalker]

The best hope for Orzammar isn't a king. Branka was right in that regard. The best hope for Orzammar is for the Dwarven Warden PC to be made Paragon. The king is nice and all, but Paragons can make a real difference.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am convinced that Endrin became senile at the end.

[Giggles_Manically]

I have a Dwarven golden age import:



Bhelen as King.

Kept the Anvil.

Sent surface troops under Anora

Helped Dagna bring apostates.



Bhelen has all the ingredients to cook up a Golden Age Cake right there.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Harrowmont dies/is killed soon enough, IIRC. The dwarves can pick their own messiah rather than have the Grey Wardens wipe their asses for them.

You mean the Assembly is going to be wise enough to pick someone different than Harrowmont?
I really don't see that happening anytime soon, until it's too late.

That's too bad for them, then. Organisms that can't change enough in order to survive get wiped out.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
That's too bad for them, then. Organisms that can't change enough in order to survive get wiped out.

Except Orzammar is of such high strategic importance, both vis a vis lyrium and vis a vis the darkspawn, that I do not believe we can afford a social darwinist attitude when dealing with them.

And it's still one of their own that changes Orzammar, out of his own accord and capability. We simply help him to the throne (in exchange for his invaluable military assistance), but we don't dictate to him what to do (see how he ignores you when you ask for Harrowmont to be spared).

[Eber]

wizardryforever wrote...

The Assembly is not working correctly, true.  It's a poorly implemented idea solely because only nobles have a voice.  This does not mean that it should be abolished to establish an absolute monarchy.  It should be reformed not abolished, which is something that Harrowmont at least tries to do (IIRC).  Bhelen abolishes the Assembly not because it is an inefficient group of corrupt nobles, but because they threaten his power.  Remember his claims that Harrowmont was using the Assembly to pull a coup.  This is a danger to him and his heirs, so he abolished it.  It had nothing to do with the good of Orzammar, and now you have Orzammar ruled by the Well Intentioned Extremist.  When is that ever a good thing?  It would be an interesting change of pace if it was, but I kinda doubt it.  I fully expect this to be one of those grey situations that people should be able to see either way, with the same kind of partisan bickering that we have in reality.  Ah well.

It is not corruption when the Assembly gives the casteless, the merchants or the smiths a once over. It is the system working as intended. It is not a good idea implemented poorly. It is a bad idea implemented succesfully.

To get a new Assembly, based on a new and good idea, we mush first crush the existing one. That's standard procedure. An absolute monarch grabs all the power for himself and once the people have tasted the sweet fruit of powerless nobles there is no going back. Then there's the fact that one king can't oppress a people as effectivly as countless nobles so immediate improvments are expected even before we see the glorious end result (a few hundred years down the line).

Modifié par Eber, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:15 .

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Who fails to act against Branka and almost causes a surface invasion of Orzammar: Harrowmont.

Truly, no one has ever succeeded in being that much of an epic fail except maybe Cailan.

Don't forget Loghain, for choosing Howe as an advisor. Harrowmont is still an option in every campaign; Howe and the Grand Plan fail every time.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Who fails to act against Branka and almost causes a surface invasion of Orzammar: Harrowmont.

Truly, no one has ever succeeded in being that much of an epic fail except maybe Cailan.

Don't forget Loghain, for choosing Howe as an advisor. Harrowmont is still an option in every campaign; Howe and the Grand Plan fail every time.

No, because Howe, despite his greed, actually knows what he is doing. And he only fails by getting killed. But he was not failing before that. He was mostly succesful. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:54 .

[Eber]

Also Howe and Loghain were up against the Warden who is allied with the Maker (Bioware). The game is rigged.

Modifié par Eber, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:57 .

[Addai]

Eber wrote...

To get a new Assembly, based on a new and good idea, we mush first crush the existing one. That's standard procedure. An absolute monarch grabs all the power for himself and once the people have tasted the sweet fruit of powerless nobles there is no going back. Then there's the fact that one king can't oppress a people as effectivly as countless nobles so immediate improvments are expected even before we see the glorious end result (a few hundred years down the line).

How are the casteless that much better off by having one dictator instead of a corrupt assembly?  Let's not make Bhelen out to be some saint.  He doesn't give the casteless any rights, he just uses them as cannon fodder and wh*res rather than ignoring them completely.  It's only a matter of opinion which is better.

[Elhanan]

IanPolaris wrote...

Oh sure, a Warden house with no heirs and no real prospect of any (and don't count the son you got from Mardy either since he will be in Harrowmount's 'protective custody').

Rica'a son may do for at least one Origin; perhaps all if he survives the epilogues. And Gorim is now married and does not have the Taint. And I have never gone with the Noble Hunters, so Mardy need not worry.

Have fun being outvoted in the Assembly 78-2 until you go to your calling and the nobles promptly forget about you and further marginalize your 'house'.-Polaris

That is in your sad, darkened, despot driven server. Mine is shining with hope, prosperity, and Butterfly swords.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
How are the casteless that much better off by having one dictator instead of a corrupt assembly?  Let's not make Bhelen out to be some saint.  He doesn't give the casteless any rights, he just uses them as cannon fodder and wh*res rather than ignoring them completely.  It's only a matter of opinion which is better.

He gives them rights in exchange for military service, because rights are only given with responsabilities. So no.

Go see what 200 casteless in Kal Hirol thought about finally being considered worthy of carrying a sword for their people. They willingly went to their deaths because for once in their entire miserable lives, someone thought of them worthy to fight and die for their people.

If that's what you call "canon fodder", then this is the highest honor the casteless ever got in their entire existence. And this is something they will be remembered and honored for. Rights need responsabilities. The Hoplites in Greece got their rights via Tyrants (like Pheidon of Argos).

I see no room at all for opinion. It's clear.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:06 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Addai67 wrote...

Eber wrote...

To get a new Assembly, based on a new and good idea, we mush first crush the existing one. That's standard procedure. An absolute monarch grabs all the power for himself and once the people have tasted the sweet fruit of powerless nobles there is no going back. Then there's the fact that one king can't oppress a people as effectivly as countless nobles so immediate improvments are expected even before we see the glorious end result (a few hundred years down the line).

How are the casteless that much better off by having one dictator instead of a corrupt assembly?  Let's not make Bhelen out to be some saint.  He doesn't give the casteless any rights, he just uses them as cannon fodder and wh*res rather than ignoring them completely.  It's only a matter of opinion which is better.

That is pretty much what the Romans did for the poor people in the Empire.

Fight and earn actual money and move ahead, or stay in the slums.
Harrowmont tells them to stay in the slums and pretend to not exist which is all they deserve for being born casteless. 

SO final answer on Who wants to be a better King:
Bhelen once again.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
SO final answer on Who wants to be a better King:
Bhelen once again.

And if you want to use the lifeline, I volunteer to reveal the obvious to the contestant.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, because Howe, despite his greed, actually knows what he is doing. And he only fails by getting killed. But he was not failing before that. He was mostly succesful. 

At some steps such as killing the King, but the overall plan fails much sooner. At least Harrowmont gets an epilogue. Sure he fails, but he at least got the chance to do something past the Blight while still breathing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
At some steps such as killing the King, but the overall plan fails much sooner. At least Harrowmont gets an epilogue. Sure he fails, but he at least got the chance to do something past the Blight while still breathing.

I wish I can take that argument seriously, I really do.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:07 .

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
SO final answer on Who wants to be a better King:
Bhelen once again.

And if you want to use the lifeline, I volunteer to reveal the obvious to the contestant.

KoP, KOP, kop my friend here is the 142nd rule of life:
When comparing Bhelen and Harrowmont the only way Harrowmont is ever to be chosen is when answering this question:

Who is the flat out worst choice for any leadership role ever?

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He gives them rights in exchange for military service, because rights are only given with responsabilities. So no.

Go see what 200 casteless in Kal Hirol thought about finally being considered worthy of carrying a sword for their people. They willingly went to their deaths because for once in their entire miserable lives, someone thought of them worthy to fight and die for their people.

If that's what you call "canon fodder", then this is the highest honor the casteless ever got in their entire existence. And this is something they will be remembered and honored for. Rights need responsabilities. The Hoplites in Greece got their rights via Tyrants (like Pheidon of Argos).

I see no room at all for opinion. It's clear.

And another little piece of the Codex helps insure victory for the Warden's plans for reforms. Or does this have to be done by the kinslayer to work?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
And another little piece of the Codex helps insure victory for the Warden's plans for reforms. Or does this have to be done by the kinslayer to work?

It has to be done by someone who actually knows how to play Orzammarian politics (which involves killing, backstabbing, manipulating and all those other "evil" things).
Let's hope that your Warden has the faintest idea on how to do all these things.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:14 .

[Eber]

Addai67 wrote...

How are the casteless that much better off by having one dictator instead of a corrupt assembly?  Let's not make Bhelen out to be some saint.  He doesn't give the casteless any rights, he just uses them as cannon fodder and wh*res rather than ignoring them completely.  It's only a matter of opinion which is better.

Because life is a class war and the nobles are at a war with the other classes. A sovereign King is of no class and free to care equally little about them all. He can be neutral. The Assembly is inherently biased. If a conflict between a merchant and a noble is brought before the Assembly the Assembly will side with the noble every time. By siding with one of their own they are preserving their right to do what ever they want to the lesser people. This is good should the need arise to slay a scriptwriter or whatever so you stay loyal.

An absolute monarch is not forced into such loyalties and let's face it the nobles aren't very productive so a good smith is likely be worth more to a King than a ever so noble drunk meaning deterring senseless violence against such a smith becomes prudent.

Similary the casteless are completely useless to a King in their current state because they produce nothing. They only steal and beg. They do however serve a purpose in the nobles class war because their existance keep the merchants, the smiths and the warriors passive. To a King they are more useful as a factor of production and that is why the casteless will be better off with the Assembly crushed. They will be allowed to work, as cannon fodder etc.

Modifié par Eber, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:16 .

[Giggles_Manically]

What Orzamar really needs is an unfourtunate cave in on top of all the noble families.



Then Bhelen could promote new nobles from the best merchants, shop keepers, and commanders into power. You know real people, with real world experience, who would be loyal to him and to Orzamar more than only their own family.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

What Orzamar really needs is an unfourtunate cave in on top of all the noble families.

Then Bhelen could promote new nobles from the best merchants, shop keepers, and commanders into power. You know real people, with real world experience, who would be loyal to him and to Orzamar more than only their own family.

You know, sometimes Costin's plans are tempting.

But I lean more towards Augustan methods.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

What Orzamar really needs is an unfourtunate cave in on top of all the noble families.

Then Bhelen could promote new nobles from the best merchants, shop keepers, and commanders into power. You know real people, with real world experience, who would be loyal to him and to Orzamar more than only their own family.

You know, sometimes Costin's plans are tempting.

But I lean more towards Augustan methods.

That was more of a joke.

I would personally turn the houses against the other and send them chasing each other while I either absorbed or depowered them one by one. Give it some time and they will become a meaningless relic.