574 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It has to be done by someone who actually knows how to play Orzammarian politics (which involves killing, backstabbing, manipulating and all those other "evil" things).
Let's hope that your Warden has the faintest idea on how to do all these things.

He does, though knowing the 'game' does not mean he has to play it with those same Evil rules. And Gorim is always willing to help it seems, as is Zev, Lil, Rica  and other special visitors the Warden may include to the guest list.

Here on team Harrowmont we actually attempt to keep our scruples.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...
Here on team Harrowmont we actually attempt to keep our scruples.

*clap clap clap*

I do hope you are intending to use an assassin and a bard to their fullest potential.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
That's too bad for them, then. Organisms that can't change enough in order to survive get wiped out.

Except Orzammar is of such high strategic importance, both vis a vis lyrium and vis a vis the darkspawn, that I do not believe we can afford a social darwinist attitude when dealing with them.

And it's still one of their own that changes Orzammar, out of his own accord and capability. We simply help him to the throne (in exchange for his invaluable military assistance), but we don't dictate to him what to do (see how he ignores you when you ask for Harrowmont to be spared).

That's all well and good, if your PC actually believes Bhelen will do what he claims (and that he can pull it off, which is something else). He could have kept his place on the Assembly if he lost to Harrowmont rather than throwing a hissy fit, or even plotted to succeed him after the Blight. Nothing subtle or brilliant about a desperate coup.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Here on team Harrowmont we actually attempt to keep our scruples.

*clap clap clap*

I do hope you are intending to use an assassin and a bard to their fullest potential.

Of course! But we forgot to use the secret word 'reformed' Assassin and Bard; goes well near the top of the list with Enchantment.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
 He could have kept his place on the Assembly if he lost to Harrowmont rather than throwing a hissy fit, or even plotted to succeed him after the Blight. Nothing subtle or brilliant about a desperate coup.

Agreed, that was not his finest moment. But he could have believed that Harrowmont would have killed him. In fact, Harrowmont does say he will throw him in prison and many deshyrs (Harrowmont suppoerters) would probably want him dead.

So, I think he was backed into a corner at that point.

What is interesting is that Bhelen's followers rallied around him quickly to defend him, while Harrowmont's supporters did nothing when their "leader" was carried off to be executed.
Different way to look at it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:34 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He gives them rights in exchange for military service, because rights are only given with responsabilities. So no.

He doesn't give them any rights for their military service.  The Legion of the Dead have no rights.  They're dead to other dwarves.  It's not like the casteless can join the regular military and earn a decent living.

An individual can decide that it's better to die as a warrior than to lead a dull existence in the slums, but Bhelen is hardly doing them a favor.  It's really no different than Harrowmont.  At the end of the day, the dwarves will likely not hold those thaigs they re-take and the casteless will still not be considered persons.  It's all the same.

I see no room at all for opinion. It's clear.

Well.  Not much point in discussing it then.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
He doesn't give them any rights for their military service.  The Legion of the Dead have no rights.  They're dead to other dwarves.  It's not like the casteless can join the regular military and earn a decent living.

What? And who told you the casteless become Legionnaires?
Yes, they do join the regular military, they do not join the Legion. And the epilogue does mention he gives them rights in exchange. 

Go to Dust Town and hear two casteless talking about exactly that, after you pick Bhelen. They do not mention the legion at all.  They fight on the surface with the rest of the army and as we know, the Legion can refuse to fight there. Which obviously means that the casteless are not being sent to the Legion.

Addai67 wrote...
An individual can decide that it's better to die as a warrior than to lead a dull existence in the slums, but Bhelen is hardly doing them a favor.  It's really no different than Harrowmont.  At the end of the day, the dwarves will likely not
hold those thaigs they re-take and the casteless will still not be considered persons.  It's all the same.

Please, that's starting to sound ridiculous (and quite frankly, I think it stems from the inability to admit that "evil tyrants" can actually do some good). Even if they don't hold those thaigs, for the first time ever, Orzammar is actually using its manpower effectively and when the others see the castless fighting, the belief that they are below scum is going to be alleviated, whether Bhelen wants that or not.

From the wiki:
"Siding with Bhelen
and destroying the Anvil will cause Orzammar to come into a new age of prosperity at the expense of a dictatorship. Bhelen strengthens Orzammar's ties with the surface world. He also grants casteless greater
rights and privileges in exchange for fighting the darkspawn. This policy allows Orzammar to reclaim lost territory, but it upsets the noble and warrior castes. After several failed assassination attempts, he dissolves the Assembly and rules alone.
"

If someone can post the actual epilogue slide, that would be great.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:43 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Well lets explore this:



Orzamar as it is, exists in much the same situation Europe was in the 1800's. People are poor, the rich and nobles sit on the top and keep anyone from getting their for the most part.



Lo and Behold America opens up and people have get this OPPORTUNITY! They can actually have a chance at a better life and because of that offer America became powerful.



Harrowmont wants to keep the old world traditions and by doing so Orzamar stagnates and moves those few steps closer to oblivion.

Bhelen on the other hand offers a chance, a slim one mind you for the casteless to get a better life for fighting the darkspawn. Plus he opens the door just that little bit more and allows trade to grow.



Off the two Harrowmont does diddly squat about anything, except to reinforce tradition. Bhelen does actually do something to move Orzamar forward and use its resources that tradition bound folk do not.



Its not even a choice for me, Harrowmont is blindly running off a cliff, and Bhelen is going "that is not a great idea guys". I think I will stand beside the guy saying the smart thing then follow the guy proudly going hand in hand with tradition over the cliffs.

[Graspiloot]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

What Orzamar really needs is an unfortunate cave in on top of all the noble families.

Then Bhelen could promote new nobles from the best merchants, shop keepers, and commanders into power. You know real people, with real world experience, who would be loyal to him and to Orzamar more than only their own family.

Which in a few generations would lead to exactly the same problem there is now

Bhelen is by far the better choice, because in every way you look at it he beats Harrowmont. Sure he is not ethical, but which of the great leaders of the world, who ruled in difficult times ever was one?

The removal of the assembly only adds to the better choices, as for reasons stated above. Perhaps the only useful thing you could do with the nobles is to make some kind of knights of them. Then they would be fighting the darkspawn as well, everyone is happier for it.

I hear the argument that Elhanan would let Orzammar fall, knowing that you could rest easy with the knowledge you chose someone "honourable", but how are the rights of the casteless less important than that of the nobles? You have thus far failed to provide an answer for that.
Also killing and backstabbing seem to be the only way to succes in dwarven politics, except for the way Harrowmont did it: asskissing. Well I would rather have the former. 

The Romans and now the dwarves as well at least understand that in troubled times democracy/oligarchy do not work and a strong leader is preferred, the major problem being the heritage. Who would become the next leader?

In my canon run I actually supported Caridin, because I for some reason brought Shale and my character was supposed to be good. Stupid, stupid, stupid. 

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Well lets explore this:

Orzamar as it is, exists in much the same situation Europe was in the 1800's. People are poor, the rich and nobles sit on the top and keep anyone from getting their for the most part.

Lo and Behold America opens up and people have get this OPPORTUNITY! They can actually have a chance at a better life and because of that offer America became powerful.
 

Funny how it is the other way around nowadays, huh ^^
Because if you are comparing it to the dwarf case, it would be an argument in favour of Harrowmont.

Modifié par Graspiloot, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:48 .

[Eber]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If someone can post the actual epilogue slide, that would be great.

Modifié par Eber, 10 janvier 2011 - 01:10 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What? And who told you the casteless become Legionnaires?
Yes, they do join the regular military, they do not join the Legion. And the epilogue does mention he gives them rights in exchange. 

It's not really specified in the epilogue actually, but it only says they are allowed to fight the darkspawn, and that they were in the Deep Roads, which is what made me think they were joining the Legion.  Nor does it specify that they gain any actual rights.  "Some freedoms"- well, being able to throw yourself against the darkspawn is a freedom, I guess.

From the epilogue slide:

The casteless were permitted to take arms against the darkspawn in exchange for new freedoms.

Please, that's starting to sound ridiculous (and quite frankly, I think it stems from the inability to admit that "evil tyrants" can actually do some good).

I did say that Bhelen was the marginally better of the two choices given.  Just not that he's the marvelous savior and humanitarian he's sometimes made out to be.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thanks Eber!

Yea, I see no mention of the Legion and I see the word everyone loves these days. "Freedoms" in exchange for military service. Yea, it's exactly like what Harrowmont does. Now I know that "freedoms" actually mean golems stepping on you and your children.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
It's not really specified in the epilogue actually, but it only says they are allowed to fight the darkspawn, and that they were in the Deep Roads, which is what made me think they were joining the Legion.  Nor does it specify that they gain any actual rights.  "Some freedoms"- well, being able to throw yourself against the darkspawn is a freedom, I guess.

Like I edited, if you go to dust down after you pick Bhelen and overhear two casteless talking about that, one of them says he will join the army. He didn't mention the legion and the legion can refuse to fight on the surface, which obviously means they are being drafted in the army.

There is no mention of the Legion and there are indications that the casteless are not going there, but they are joining the army. Hence why some warriors houses would be upset.

It's clear, the casteless fight and they earn freedoms, rights and honor. With Harrowmont, they remain below scum.

Addai67 wrote...
I did say that Bhelen was the marginally better of the two choices given.  Just not that he's the marvelous savior and humanitarian he's sometimes made out to be.

lol "marginally". Ok.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:54 .

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Well lets explore this:

Orzamar as it is, exists in much the same situation Europe was in the 1800's. People are poor, the rich and nobles sit on the top and keep anyone from getting their for the most part.

Lo and Behold America opens up and people have get this OPPORTUNITY! They can actually have a chance at a better life and because of that offer America became powerful.
 

Ugh... I don't even know where to start.  Let's start by rejecting Manifest Destiny as a basis for any reasonable discussion.  Besides the fact that not all are Americans here and it could be offensive, modern states have been responsible for more slaughter, more horror, than medieval man could have dreamt of.

Secondly, I'll admit that letting the casteless take up arms is a good thing, even if in the end I think it will amount to the same thing.  The idea of caste equals personhood is too deeply rooted in dwarven culture.  They may be persuaded to think that the casteless should be allowed to fight just as mages are chained and allowed to fight among the Qunari.  It will not necessarily lead to a golden new day for the casteless, any more than we'll see a mageocracy sweeping Par Vollen any time soon.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:56 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Like I edited, if you go to dust down after you pick Bhelen and overhear two casteless talking about that, one of them says he will join the army. He didn't mention the legion and the legion can refuse to fight on the surface, which obviously means they are being drafted in the army.

There is no mention of the Legion and there are indications that the casteless are not going there, but they are joining the army. Hence why some warriors houses would be upset.

Maybe, maybe not.  The Legion does fight on the surface at times, and the only mention we get of the casteless military advances is in the Deep Roads.  But you could be right about that.

It's clear, the casteless fight and they earn freedoms, rights and honor. With Harrowmont, they remain below scum.

Where does it say anything about honor or rights?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Maybe, maybe not.  The Legion does fight on the surface at times, and the only mention we get of the casteless military advances is in the Deep Roads.  But you could be right about that.

Kardol can outright refuse and the casteless still fight on the surface. Which means the casteless and the Legion are unrelated when it comes to Bhelen's reforms.

In fact the Legion is a regressive tool used by the nobles to get the manpower that they don't want to reward to keep the status quo. Bhelen's reforms make the organization redundant and in need for a restructuring.

Where does it say anything about honor or rights?

By less caste restrictions and freedoms, I am going to assume rights. Like the right to bear arms. The casteless were not even thought to be worthy to carry weapons for their country.
As for honor? Again, go back to Kal Hirol (and see how Sigrum feels also). The Casteless are thought of as non-existant waste of space (paradox). Fighting is a chance to prove their worth and that they can be something other than beggers and thieves, that they can have honor.

For a society very much based on honor, that's extremily important.

As for Bhelen being  marginally better. I am curious.
Give me one single example. One tiny example of something Harrowmont does that is better than Bhelen as a ruler. I am really curious how you came up with Bhelen being "marginally" better.

Oh and, no "tyrants are bad", "evil acts" arguments. Something material and concrete.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:08 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
 He could have kept his place on the Assembly if he lost to Harrowmont rather than throwing a hissy fit, or even plotted to succeed him after the Blight. Nothing subtle or brilliant about a desperate coup.

Agreed, that was not his finest moment. But he could have believed that Harrowmont would have killed him. In fact, Harrowmont does say he will throw him in prison and many deshyrs (Harrowmont suppoerters) would probably want him dead.

So, I think he was backed into a corner at that point.

There is that. It's unclear what Harrowmont would have done if Bhelen had cooperated with the succession, though considering H's friendship with Edrin I like to believe he could have been lenient (unless, like you suggest, H's supporters push for an execution, which I could see happening).

What is interesting is that Bhelen's followers rallied around him quickly to defend him, while Harrowmont's supporters did nothing when their "leader" was carried off to be executed.
Different way to look at it.

Well, there's two ways to look at that, really.

One is that Bhelen's supporters were passionate about supporting *him* (or were simply aware of a potential coup), while Harrowmont's...not so dedicated. Or at least afraid that objecting will put their own necks on the block.

Another is that Harrowmont's (deshyr) allies were ultimately loyal to whoever had the crown, not to a mere contender. Since Harrowmont concedes when he loses and doesn't object to his own execution (that I recall?), it possibly makes sense his allies would concede with him, especially if killing rivals isn't uncommon in (dwarven) politics.

(I mean, Eamon doesn't say a word if Anora, once queen, decides Alistair should die.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Another is that Harrowmont's (deshyr) allies were ultimately loyal to whoever had the crown, not to a mere contender. Since Harrowmont concedes when he loses and doesn't object to his own execution (that I recall?), it possibly makes sense his allies would concede with him, especially if killing rivals isn't uncommon in (dwarven) politics.

Seeing how they end up wanting to assassinate their king, I think it's more probable that it was cowardice and lack of loyalty to Harrowmont that was their motivator in not doing anything.

One could argue that they respect the will of a paragon, but trying to assassinate Bhelen runs contrary to the will of a Paragon.

[Sarah1281]

Oh sure, a Warden house with no heirs and no real prospect of any (and don't count the son you got from Mardy either since he will be in Harrowmount's 'protective custody').

I highly doubt this will happen. Harrowmont takes in the kid as a favor to you for helping him and so your father's grandson won't grow up in Dust Town. Once you become an Aeducan again/found your own house, he has no reason not to give you your heir back straight away before you have time to cause any problems and should he refuse to do that, he'll realize he's pissing off the head of House Aeducan/Paragon and I doubt even he's that thick.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Oh sure, a Warden house with no heirs and no real prospect of any (and don't count the son you got from Mardy either since he will be in Harrowmount's 'protective custody').

I highly doubt this will happen. Harrowmont takes in the kid as a favor to you for helping him and so your father's grandson won't grow up in Dust Town. Once you become an Aeducan again/found your own house, he has no reason not to give you your heir back straight away before you have time to cause any problems and should he refuse to do that, he'll realize he's pissing off the head of House Aeducan/Paragon and I doubt even he's that thick.

But what about some Deshyrs who were glad to see the Aeducans off the throne?
Poisoning a baby is not that hard.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As for Bhelen being  marginally better. I am curious.
Give me one single example. One tiny example of something Harrowmont does that is better than Bhelen as a ruler. I am really curious how you came up with Bhelen being "marginally" better.

Oh and, no "tyrants are bad", "evil acts" arguments. Something material and concrete.

If I say Bhelen is marginally better, what about that tells you I think Harrowmont is actually the better choice?  Your question makes no sense.  Both of them have troubled reigns, both cause instability and cultural fracture, but all in all Bhelen's is better.

Sorry i can't provide you with a pro-Harrowmont argument to rip apart.  Maybe someone else can.

BTW "tyrants are bad" is a concrete argument.  Just because you admire them doesn't make it a universal affection.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Oh sure, a Warden house with no heirs and no real prospect of any (and don't count the son you got from Mardy either since he will be in Harrowmount's 'protective custody').

I highly doubt this will happen. Harrowmont takes in the kid as a favor to you for helping him and so your father's grandson won't grow up in Dust Town. Once you become an Aeducan again/found your own house, he has no reason not to give you your heir back straight away before you have time to cause any problems and should he refuse to do that, he'll realize he's pissing off the head of House Aeducan/Paragon and I doubt even he's that thick.

But what about some Deshyrs who were glad to see the Aeducans off the throne?
Poisoning a baby is not that hard.

That is why it's the parent's job to have adequate security. I'm not sure just the existence of the kid is enough to get many assassination attempts. Maybe if it looked like the DN was going to take the throne or started succeeding with his anti-noble agenda.

@Addai: The casteless are already perfectly free to join the Legion. In fact, one of the codexes tells you that one of the reasons that they keep Dust Town so crappy is so there will be no hope for the casteless but the Legion since Orzammar needs them. If Bhelen told them they could join the Army but have absolutely no other benefits at all, would it really be much of an enticement?  Like you said, they can already get involved with the Legion and fight darkspawn.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
If I say Bhelen is marginally better, what about that tells you I think Harrowmont is actually the better choice?  Your question makes no sense.  Both of them have troubled reigns, both cause instability and cultural fracture, but all in all Bhelen's is better.

Sorry i can't provide you with a pro-Harrowmont argument to rip apart.  Maybe someone else can.

BTW "tyrants are bad" is a concrete argument.  Just because you admire them doesn't make it a universal affection.

When you say "marginally", I assumed you think that at least something in Harrowmont's reign is better. Something that he does succesfully that would make him marginally less good than Bhelen. 

Because seeing how Harrowmont does nothing at all right, everything that he could possibly do to make things worse he does and Bhelen surpassing him in every single way possible, I can't see how anyone could say that Bhelen is only "marginally" better. Much better would be a more appropriate way to compare the two and that's only putting it mildly. The two are uncomparable. But different definitions I guess.

And no, it's not. It's based on the ideal that "tyrants" are necessarily "bad", while I care about results and concret evidence vis a vis the big picture that goes beyond what one might think of a specific system. I don't admire them, I admire leaders who get things done regardless of their style of rule. In other words results.

Many "tyrants" were very bad rulers. Many of them were brilliant. What seperates them is not the exterior (a very superficial way to look at regimes), but rather the results. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:30 .

[Graspiloot]

Addai67 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Well lets explore this:

Orzamar as it is, exists in much the same situation Europe was in the 1800's. People are poor, the rich and nobles sit on the top and keep anyone from getting their for the most part.

Lo and Behold America opens up and people have get this OPPORTUNITY! They can actually have a chance at a better life and because of that offer America became powerful.
 

Ugh... I don't even know where to start.  Let's start by rejecting Manifest Destiny as a basis for any reasonable discussion.  Besides the fact that not all are Americans here and it could be offensive, modern states have been responsible for more slaughter, more horror, than medieval man could have dreamt of.

@Addai67
Being non-American myself I would not know how this would be an offense. Although the argument in itself is bad, inapplicable, ridiculous and on top of that an argument against his point  if you look at the state of the two regions now (even if it would apply).

Also, what KoP means to say I think is that if you say he is marginally better that would imply Harrowmont is also good at something, and we have yet to see any example of that .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

When you say "marginally", I assumed you think that at least something in Harrowmont's reign is better. Something that he does succesfully that would make him marginally less good than Bhelen. 

I see their outcomes as basically the same.  Either way, the dwarves are in decline and fractured culturally.  I don't see Bhelen changing that.  As with the ruler decision topside, it's just a different emphasis and different way to get to the same essential place.

So because of this, the idea that Bhelen is some great leader... no.  He's ruthless enough to force his way into power and to force a few changes before the whole system collapses and the dwarves find themselves with a tyrant.  Harrowmont is inept enough to keep the lid on instability until fractures grow too deep to ignore.  It's about the same outcome.