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Am i only one who put Bhelen as king?


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#176
KnightofPhoenix

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Addai67 wrote...
 It's about the same outcome.


No evidence of that and we can't know. All the epilogue slides point to very different outcomes.

If Bioware wants to be idiotic, it will do just that and make our choices completely irrelevent, but in that case, since Orzammar will have little bearing in the future (unlike Ferelden), I do not think they are going to do that.

No one is saying that Bhelen is going to make a 180 degree turn in a few years. But I see nothing at all saying or hinting that Harrowmont's reign and Bhelen's are going to have the same outcome (except Bioware's annoying laziness). Again, I think that is stemming from an inability to admit that Bhelen is making the necessary changes and that he can do good. Because you think he is a "rat".
 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:48 .


#177
Elhanan

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Graspiloot wrote...

... I hear the argument that Elhanan would let Orzammar fall, knowing that you could rest easy with the knowledge you chose someone "honourable", but how are the rights of the casteless less important than that of the nobles? You have thus far failed to provide an answer for that.
Also killing and backstabbing seem to be the only way to succes in dwarven politics, except for the way Harrowmont did it: asskissing. Well I would rather have the former. 


I do not let Orzammar fail. I give them the opp to succeed under the reign of Harrowmont. Then when he fails, another can be placed on the throne, or behind it. Reform without Bhelen: Epic win!

I choose not to reform the current system under Bhelen as he is a power hungry despot willing to do anything for his perceived goal. And while Duncan may have had such a like POV, I do not.

And I also take the unseen option to play the game knowing the moves of my opponents, but not duplicating them.

The Romans and now the dwarves as well at least understand that in troubled times democracy/oligarchy do not work and a strong leader is preferred, the major problem being the heritage. Who would become the next leader?


King Aeducan; either the Paragon, or the new prince when he comes of age.

#178
wizardryforever

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I believe the best summation of the two epilogues is this:
Harrowmont has good intentions but fails.
Bhelen has some good intentions (with questionable motives) and succeeds with some significant negative effects.

Now to some people, a tyranny is not something that is justified by what Bhelen accomplishes.  It all depends on if you consider the ends to justify the means (I don't really).

"Well, we did it, Orzammar is secure."
"Yes, but at what cost?"

Rather appropriate I would say, even if I did make it up.

Now consider also if we compare Orzammar to the US (roughly).  Imagine if there was an inspired, popular president during a time of crisis that was continuously getting stymied by Congress.  He had an agenda that was controversial, potentially disastrous, but was determined to see it happen.  Finally, he decided that in order to bring about this agenda ("for the good of all"), Congress had to go.  So he abolishes Congress and sets himself up as the single supreme ruler for life.  Can you honestly tell me that you would support such a person?  Does it depend on the circumstances?  I'm curious.

#179
KnightofPhoenix

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wizardryforever wrote...
Bhelen has some good intentions (with questionable motives) and succeeds with some significant negative effects.


What negative effects? I dont' see any.
Unless you mean "evilz tyrannyz" thing, then yea...I guess...

I think some people should try to live in an underdevelopped country and see what they become willing to tolerate.  Idealism is easy, when you live well. Doesn't cost much.
Now try imagining living in a place like Orzammar that is literally *dying*.

wizardryforever wrote...
 Can you honestly tell me that you would support such a person?  Does it depend on the circumstances?  I'm curious.


If the USA is collapsing and is hindered by idiotic traditions and conventions, and with institutions that clearly don't know what they are doing and are mired with corruption. Then yes.  If that person can bring about the change that is obviously needed (and it doesn't take a genius to see how what Bhelen is doing is necessary), absolutely.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:59 .


#180
Graspiloot

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wizardryforever wrote...

I believe the best summation of the two epilogues is this:
Harrowmont has good intentions but fails.
Bhelen has some good intentions (with questionable motives) and succeeds with some significant negative effects.

Now to some people, a tyranny is not something that is justified by what Bhelen accomplishes.  It all depends on if you consider the ends to justify the means (I don't really).

"Well, we did it, Orzammar is secure."
"Yes, but at what cost?"

Rather appropriate I would say, even if I did make it up.

Now consider also if we compare Orzammar to the US (roughly).  Imagine if there was an inspired, popular president during a time of crisis that was continuously getting stymied by Congress.  He had an agenda that was controversial, potentially disastrous, but was determined to see it happen.  Finally, he decided that in order to bring about this agenda ("for the good of all"), Congress had to go.  So he abolishes Congress and sets himself up as the single supreme ruler for life.  Can you honestly tell me that you would support such a person?  Does it depend on the circumstances?  I'm curious.


What are the bad consequences of Bhelens rule then?
To be fair your congress can hardly be compared to the Assembly, although I must admit, I guess many in there could be compared to "noble" families with incompetent and corrupt members. 
However, your congress is elected by the people and are supposed to be coming up for the rights of the people, not by the nobles and for the nobles. 
Also in Rome they understood well that in some times you needed to temporarily abolish the senate and put a dictator in power for 10 years or so, it worked quite well for them actually.

My major concern would be the permanency of this dictatorship, but perhaps this is what Orzammar needs. The traditions have clearly failed, so now it is time for a new form of government to have a chance. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If the USA is collapsing and is hindered by idiotic traditions and conventions, and with institutions that clearly don't know what they are doing and are mired with corruption. Then yes. 


Isn't it?
Sorry, I don't really want to get into a discussion about America or how it functions, but that one was too easy.

Modifié par Graspiloot, 10 janvier 2011 - 05:02 .


#181
KnightofPhoenix

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Graspiloot wrote...
Isn't it?
Sorry, I don't really want to get into a discussion about America or how it functions, but that one was too easy.


I am finding it hard to disagree when someone like Palin actually had a chance to become the vice of a dying old man.

Just. Wow.

#182
Elhanan

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Ix-nay on the current RL politics, or it all gets Locked.

From my POV, the bad things under Bhelen's rule:

- one so-called man's will controls all. And if he don't care for another opinion, *snicker-snack*

So I guess I oppose the evil trynnical thing too, so we can agree on this.

Modifié par Elhanan, 10 janvier 2011 - 05:18 .


#183
wizardryforever

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...
Bhelen has some good intentions (with questionable motives) and succeeds with some significant negative effects.


What negative effects? I dont' see any.
Unless you mean "evilz tyrannyz" thing, then yea...I guess...

I think some people should try to live in an underdevelopped country and see what they become willing to tolerate.  Idealism is easy, when you live well. Doesn't cost much.
Now try imagining living in a place like Orzammar that is literally *dying*.

wizardryforever wrote...
 Can you honestly tell me that you would support such a person?  Does it depend on the circumstances?  I'm curious.


If the USA is collapsing and is hindered by idiotic traditions and conventions, and with institutions that clearly don't know what they are doing and are mired with corruption. Then yes.  If that person can bring about the change that is obviously needed (and it doesn't take a genius to see how what Bhelen is doing is necessary), absolutely.

Tyranny is something only very rarely justified, and only as a temporary measure.  Society would have to be on the brink of anarchy or annihilation for me to consider supporting such a person in reality.  Hence my hesitation at supporting Bhelen.  Yes Orzammar is in chaos, but that quiets down immediately once the king is crowned.  That is, unless you support Harrowmont, then Bhelen and his supporters choose to fight to the death rather than concede that they lost and reunite against the darkspawn.  That really speaks more of Bhelen's character than Harrowmont.  Bhelen sees that he won't get the power, refuses to accept it, and begins a civil war in earnest that had already sparked.  Harrowmont, on the other hand, steps down gracefully, and acknowledges his loss.  What does Bhelen do then?  Executes him in his very first act as king.  Again, speaks volumes to Bhelen's character, and vilifies Harrowmont.

Orzammar is undergoing a slow decline, slow enough for reforms to be attempted the normal, peaceful way.  Reform the Assembly by allowing some representation of the other castes (the casteless would be too much, for now anyway), even if the representation was very uneven.  Given what I know about Bhelen, I'm convinced that he dissolved the Assembly simply because they were a check on his power, and he wanted to be absolute ruler.  He wanted to reform things, sure, but he was very unwilling to compromise, the polar opposite of Harrowmont.

To those pointing to Rome as an example of a successful dictatorship, I would like to remind you that that very dictatorship (along with political intrigue) was the very thing that began Rome's long slow decline.  Sure it was great when the leader was an effective one, but the unclear line of succession weakened the empire to such an extent that eventually the barbarian nations were able to overwhelm them.

I just don't think Orzammar's situation was so dire that a more peaceful route couldn't have been attempted.  Nor do I see a real reason for dissolving the Assembly instead of simply reforming it or just reducing its influence.

#184
Graspiloot

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Elhanan wrote...

Ix-nay on the current RL politics, or it all gets Locked.

From my POV, the bad things under Bhelen's rule:

- one so-called man's will controls all. And if he don't care for another opinion, *snicker-snack*

So I guess I oppose the evil trynnical thing too, so we can agree on this.




Yet this is in itself not a negative consequence, only gives room for them.

@Wizardryforever
Yes, but gracefully accepting loss isn't a good leadership quality!
And furthermore are there a million and one reasons Rome fell and each of them less relevant to the discussion then others.

Modifié par Graspiloot, 10 janvier 2011 - 05:23 .


#185
MrSwizleSticks

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I can't bring myself to make Bhelen king. That bastard betrayed me at the start.

#186
Elhanan

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wizardryforever wrote...

... I just don't think Orzammar's situation was so dire that a more peaceful route couldn't have been attempted.  Nor do I see a real reason for dissolving the Assembly instead of simply reforming it or just reducing its influence.


My Mage Wardens cast Storm of the Century in the Assembly, so no further reduction is required. But I digress....

Image IPB

#187
Eber

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What good intentions does Harrowmont have? The only intention I associate Harrowmont with is that to stop "Bhelen's radical changes that will offend the ancient Paragons" (from the mouth of his ringer) which to me is a bad one. But maybe I'm missing something I haven't talked to him in a while. What I'm getting from the game is that Harrowmont's intentions are to stop change, perserve the nobels privileges and put the other classes in their place. In other words that Lord Harrowmont is a bad, bad man.

Modifié par Eber, 10 janvier 2011 - 05:28 .


#188
Rockworm503

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MrSwizleSticks wrote...

I can't bring myself to make Bhelen king. That bastard betrayed me at the start.


indeed in most of my previous playthroughs I supported Bhelen.  Then I played the Dwarf Noble origin and now I can't kill him fast enough lol.

#189
KnightofPhoenix

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wizardryforever wrote...
Tyranny is something only very rarely justified, and only as a temporary measure. 


In your opinion, specify. I find it justified on many occasions and the results can vindicate it.
Whether I find it the "ideal" system or not is not the issue. Every circumstance and every people have a system appropriate for them and their time.

No regime is perfect and no regime can last forever. But some are better than others depending on the circumstances. Orzammar needs a Bhelen, not a HArrowmont and that much is perfectly clear.

wizardryforever wrote...
  Harrowmont, on the other hand, steps down gracefully, and acknowledges his loss.  What does Bhelen do then?  Executes him in his very first act as king.  Again, speaks volumes to Bhelen's character, and vilifies Harrowmont.


Yes, Bhelen is willing to deal with opposition firmly and hence why he can deal with the rebels easily without needing golems and Harrowmont can't. Which is why Harrowmont's rule is mired with civil war and more deaths. Being able to impose order is what leaders are supposed to be able to do.

wizardryforever wrote...
Reform the Assembly by allowing some representation of the other castes (the casteless would be too much, for
now anyway), even if the representation was very uneven.


Why would the deshyrs, who think the person proposing such things (Helmi) is a joke, ever consider this?
What you don't realize is that this fundamentally hurts their interests and their monopoly on political power.

wizardryforever wrote...
Given what I know about Bhelen, I'm convinced that he dissolved the Assembly simply because they were a check on his power, and he wanted to be absolute ruler.  He wanted to reform things, sure, but he was very unwilling to compromise, the polar opposite of Harrowmont.


Good for him. What Orzammar needs right now is not a compromiser. And not one who compromises to Deshyrs who can't see what everyoen with common sense can see. 

wizardryforever wrote...
To those pointing to Rome as an example of a successful dictatorship, I would like to remind you that that very dictatorship (along with political intrigue) was the very thing that began Rome's long slow decline.  Sure it was great when the leader was an effective one, but the unclear line of succession weakened the empire to such an extent that eventually the barbarian nations were able to overwhelm them.


Rome's decline is rather based on geo-political and economic realities, and not because an Emperor was bad. The Empire survived people like Nero, Caligula and Commodus.
And because the army had more political power than it should have and that's something Augustus succeeded in concealing, but his successors eventually couldn't (after 200 years).

The system of Emperors in the Roman world remained intact until 1453.

#190
wizardryforever

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

In your opinion, specify. I find it justified on many occasions and the results can vindicate it.
Whether I find it the "ideal" system or not is not the issue. Every circumstance and every people have a system appropriate for them and their time.

No regime is perfect and no regime can last forever. But some are better than others depending on the circumstances. Orzammar needs a Bhelen, not a HArrowmont and that much is perfectly clear.


I find it rarely justified on the basis that it is an unstable system that crashes and burns as soon as the dictator dies, even if a successor is chosen.  There is no peaceful transition of power, and pretty much every instance of it that I can recall from history ended in disaster, as absolute monarchies and dictatorships inevitably face a poor ruler.  Bhelen may be alright in this regard (debatable, but not going into that), but who's to say how well the system turns out to be under his successors?  Especially when they learn from daddy Bhelen that kinslaying and backstabbing and lying to get what you want are okay.  I would argue that Orzammar needs someone between the two, and really each epilogue is just as bad as the other.

wizardryforever wrote...
  Harrowmont, on the other hand, steps down gracefully, and acknowledges his loss.  What does Bhelen do then?  Executes him in his very first act as king.  Again, speaks volumes to Bhelen's character, and vilifies Harrowmont.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Yes, Bhelen is willing to deal with opposition firmly and hence why he can deal with the rebels easily without needing golems and Harrowmont can't. Which is why Harrowmont's rule is mired with civil war and more deaths. Being able to impose order is what leaders are supposed to be able to do.

I was under the impression that Harrowmont's supporters followed Harrowmont's example and acknowledged Bhelen as king, whereas Bhelen's supporters took Bhelen's lead and threw a tantrum because Bhelen didn't get his way.  Perhaps Harrowmont's supporters care more about the rule of law, in any case, speaks volumes of the nature of Bhelen and his supporters.  Since, you know, they stir up a bloody rebellion and Harrowmont's don't.

wizardryforever wrote...
Reform the Assembly by allowing some representation of the other castes (the casteless would be too much, for
now anyway), even if the representation was very uneven.


Why would the deshyrs, who think the person proposing such things (Helmi) is a joke, ever consider this?
What you don't realize is that this fundamentally hurts their interests and their monopoly on political power.

This is why I say they need someone who is strong like Bhelen, but ethical like Harrowmont.  This would likely bring about less change than Bhelen, but more change than Harrowmont.  As it is, neither one is ideal.

wizardryforever wrote...
Given what I know about Bhelen, I'm convinced that he dissolved the Assembly simply because they were a check on his power, and he wanted to be absolute ruler.  He wanted to reform things, sure, but he was very unwilling to compromise, the polar opposite of Harrowmont.


Good for him. What Orzammar needs right now is not a compromiser. And not one who compromises to Deshyrs who can't see what everyoen with common sense can see. 

Being unable to compromise is a mark of very poor leadership.  Often, compromise is necessary and vital to everyone's wellbeing.  Stubbornness can only lead to tragedy in a leader, and I would say the complete takeover of the government marks the beginnings of tragedy.

wizardryforever wrote...
To those pointing to Rome as an example of a successful dictatorship, I would like to remind you that that very dictatorship (along with political intrigue) was the very thing that began Rome's long slow decline.  Sure it was great when the leader was an effective one, but the unclear line of succession weakened the empire to such an extent that eventually the barbarian nations were able to overwhelm them.


Rome's decline is rather based on geo-political and economic realities, and not because an Emperor was bad. The Empire survived people like Nero, Caligula and Commodus.
And because the army had more political power than it should have and that's something Augustus succeeded in concealing, but his successors eventually couldn't (after 200 years).

The system of Emperors in the Roman world remained intact until 1453.

Indeed, though a huge part of what brought about the end of Rome (both the classical and Byzantine empires) was the constant assassinations and succession struggles.  These things kept the empire focused inward when it needed to defend itself.  It was mired in petty struggles within and fell piece by piece to outside invaders.  It became only marginally better when they made the emperorship hereditary.  But really, arguing Roman history is rather pointless in this context.

#191
Graspiloot

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I would say that Bhelen is ideal for his lifetime, after that I think the ideal thing for the dwarves would be their equivalent of the Roman Republic (to stick with Rome for a bit), with their variations on consuls, and the occasional dictator to lead them in times of trouble.

Also which I pointed out earlier, discussing the fall of the Roman Empire is hardly relevant.

Modifié par Graspiloot, 10 janvier 2011 - 05:56 .


#192
KnightofPhoenix

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wizardryforever wrote...
I find it rarely justified on the basis that it is an unstable system that crashes and burns as soon as the dictator dies, even if a successor is chosen.  There is no peaceful transition of power, and pretty much every instance of it that I can recall from history ended in disaster, as absolute monarchies and dictatorships inevitably face a poor ruler. 


Every system ends up in disaster.
However, historical evidence contradicts your theory that there can't be a peaceful transition of power.
Yes there can and has been.

wizardryforever wrote...
Bhelen may be alright in this regard (debatable, but not going into that), but who's to say how well the system turns out to be under his successors?  Especially when they learn from daddy Bhelen that kinslaying and backstabbing and lying to get what you want are okay.


That's what every politician in a place like Orzammar needs to learn.
And in addition to this, they will probably also learn the benefits of his reforms.

And should his regime crash, which it will ultimately, the reforms that were made will be hard to reverse. And life goes on.
Point is, the probability of Bhelen's regime succeeding after his death is much higher than the Assembly realizing what needs to be done any time soon.


I was under the impression that Harrowmont's supporters followed Harrowmont's example and acknowledged Bhelen as king, whereas Bhelen's supporters took Bhelen's lead and threw a tantrum because Bhelen didn't get his way.  Perhaps Harrowmont's supporters care more about the rule of law, in any case, speaks volumes of the nature of Bhelen and his supporters.  Since, you know, they stir up a bloody rebellion and Harrowmont's don't.


I see it as cowardice and lack of loyalty. And there are rebels under Bhelen as well, except he deals with them better and swiftly.

And rule of law? Somehow I don't think assassinating a king is part of that rule of law.

This is why I say they need someone who is strong like Bhelen, but ethical like Harrowmont. 


That for me sounds like a contradiction. All strong leaders were very ruthless (depending on circumstances) from what I know and I don't intend to brag, but I think I know quite a bit in this regard.


Being unable to compromise is a mark of very poor leadership.  Often, compromise is necessary and vital to everyone's wellbeing. 


When one cannot afford to compromise with those who don't realize what is needed, then no it's not. Compromising with self-interested fools who would oppose any kind of necessary reform is the mark of weak leadership and we see it perfectly in Harrowmont.


Indeed, though a huge part of what brought about the end of Rome (both the classical and Byzantine empires) was the constant assassinations and succession struggles.  These things kept the empire focused inward when it needed to defend itself.  It was mired in petty struggles within and fell piece by piece to outside invaders.  It became only marginally better when they made the emperorship hereditary.  But really, arguing Roman history is rather pointless in this context.


Not really, the Roman Empire, again, survived Nero, Caligula, Commodus, the year of the four Emperors and the civil war that brought Septimius Severus into power and the system remained mostly intact.

If we are to compare those events to the civil wars that the Republic experienced, they are rather mild.

While it certainly had problems, I think everyone knows that what Augustus did when he removed the impotent Republic to be what Rome needed.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:15 .


#193
Graspiloot

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Many historians would argue that the fall of Rome began with Commodus...
Also I think the Republic was not even working that poorly...

For the rest I agree with your post in so far as Bhelen is concerned, not in the hereditary system he is creating..
Also is not a dwarf who is born from one casteless parent automatically casteless, making Bhelens heirs to be casteless by default? I think Bhelen would be smart enough to realise that allowing a casteless on the throne would perhaps be a step too much.

Modifié par Graspiloot, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:17 .


#194
Eber

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They get the caste of the same sex parent so a son of Bhelen and Rica's is a potential King, a daughter casteless. Pretty arbitrary system they got going there...

Also I'm pretty sure Bhelen is planning to have children with many women of all castes. I don't think he's one to discriminate.

Modifié par Eber, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:22 .


#195
Sarah1281

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Also is not a dwarf who is born from one casteless parent automatically casteless, making Bhelens heirs to be casteless by default? I think Bhelen would be smart enough to realise that allowing a casteless on the throne would perhaps be a step too much.

No, the caste of the child is dependent on the caste of the same sex parent. Bhelen had a son, Endrin, who is a noble. Any other sons he has with anyone would be a noble. If he has a daughter with Rica, she will be casteless (unless you play DC).

#196
Graspiloot

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Oh, my bad then, it has been a while since I visited Orzammar for a playthrough (started after months again, and Orzammar is always the last place I go to).

#197
Eber

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Sarah1281 wrote...

No, the caste of the child is dependent on the caste of the same sex parent. Bhelen had a son, Endrin, who is a noble. Any other sons he has with anyone would be a noble. If he has a daughter with Rica, she will be casteless (unless you play DC).


What does Bhelen say if you push the issue and ask if your nephew is next in line for the throne? I didn't dare choose that line with my casteless for various reasons.

Checked myself:
Bhelen: I haven't exactly picked an heir yet. But he is my son and a son of the House Aeducan. He has the same right as any son of my wife's body. Assuming he grows up a clever and as courageous as his aunt.

Modifié par Eber, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:49 .


#198
Addai

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 It's about the same outcome.


No evidence of that and we can't know. All the epilogue slides point to very different outcomes.

No, they don't.  They tell what the two attempt to do and end in saying that there is great unrest among the dwarves.

Like with Anora, I know you'd like for the story to end up with a much different outcome because of the choice of ruler, but it just isn't so.  I'm fine with that.  The story is not black and white.  You can pick Harrowmont thinking he's the good guy and end up disappointed.  You can pick Bhelen thinking he's stronger and you see in the end that that is not all it's cracked up to be.  It's not that the choice is irrelevant or that the writers are lazy, it's that the problems and solutions are not simple and black-and-white.  There are no heroes, just winners and losers.

#199
Sarah1281

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Eber wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

No, the caste of the child is dependent on the caste of the same sex parent. Bhelen had a son, Endrin, who is a noble. Any other sons he has with anyone would be a noble. If he has a daughter with Rica, she will be casteless (unless you play DC).


What does Bhelen say if you push the issue and ask if your nephew is next in line for the throne? I didn't dare choose that line with my casteless for various reasons.

Checked myself:
Bhelen: I haven't exactly picked an heir yet. But he is my son and a son of the House Aeducan. He has the same right as any son of my wife's body. Assuming he grows up a clever and as courageous as his aunt.

I'm always surprised by his honesty here. He has no other children and could easily break his promise in the future and it would be so easy to tell you what you want to hear to guarantee your support...and yet he doesn't.

#200
KnightofPhoenix

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Addai67 wrote...
No, they don't.  They tell what the two attempt to do and end in saying that there is great unrest among the dwarves.


Where is the unrest with Bhelen? Show me.
Post the slide if you can.

What it says at the end is that some see him as a tyrant, other see him as a visionary that is dragging Orzammar into modernity. I see no mention of unrest after the Assembly was disolved.

Addai67 wrote...
Like with Anora, I know you'd like for the story to end up with a much different outcome because of the choice of ruler, but it just isn't so.  I'm fine with that.  The story is not black and white.  You can pick Harrowmont thinking he's the good guy and end up disappointed.  You can pick Bhelen thinking he's stronger and you see in the end that that is not all it's cracked up to be.  It's not that the choice is irrelevant or that the writers are lazy, it's that the problems and solutions are not simple and black-and-white.  There are no heroes, just winners and losers.


No one suggested it was simple. But that to me would reek with laziness.

It's like saying that Rome would have had the exact same outcome if Mark Antony became its sole ruler instead of Augustus. They are drastically different from each other in the same way Bhelen and Harrowmont are. Bhelen's epilogue is ful of success and Harrowmont's is full of failure. For both to have the exact same outcome is that of lazy writing and cannot be justified on logical grounds.

Orzammar opening up to trade more vs Orzammar regressing into isolation.
Orzammar loosening caste restrictions vs Orzammar making it stricter.
Orzammar regaining ground and using its manpower to its fullest potential vs Orzammar doing the exact opposite.

Those are drastically different scenarios and to arrive at the same outcome can only be the product of lazy wrtiting or a deliberate attempt to make Harrowmont sympathizers feel better about themselves.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:56 .