574 réponses à ce sujet

[Eber]

.

Modifié par Eber, 08 décembre 2012 - 08:38 .

[Addai]

@KnightofPhoenix, the slides are a page or two back. Dissolving the assembly and the fact that some see him as a tyrant= unrest.

I think the problem is that you want one of these two to be the leader of the moment when as someone in Orzammar says (can't remember who), "they're all the same, no paragons here." The hero of this story is the Warden.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 janvier 2011 - 07:03 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

@KnightofPhoenix, the slides are a page or two back. Dissolving the assembly and the fact that some see him as a tyrant= unrest.

I think the problem is that you want one of these two to be the leader of the moment when as someone in Orzammar says (can't remember who), "they're all the same, no paragons here." The hero of this story is the Warden.

No, people doing something about it = unrest.
Dissolving the assembly and some short sighted dissention =/= a civil war that could only be won by golems, dust town being razed to the ground with golems, and a possible surface invasion because Harrowmont didn't even bother to deal with Branka. Withotu golems, Harrowmont dies almost immediately.
Even if there was unrest under Bhelen, it's no where near the same as Harrowmont.

And if the Warden's choices are made irrelevent, and so is the entire story. Do you think I care about the darkpsawn? They were only in the bg from me. What made the story is the choices concerning other things and if they are made irrelevent, then the game truly sucks.

And it's not a problem to expect that one leader who does everything that is needed actually succeeds while the other one who does everything wrong fails. "Warden's story" is just a poor excuse for sloppy writing.

They don't even need to make Bhelen's reign a spectacular success. But to tell me it doesn't make a shred of a difference? Then I can safely tell you I will think twice before buying Bioware games, if they are giving me illusionary choices with no real consequences.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 07:23 .

[Addai]

And if the outcome actually turns out worse under Bhelen, what do you do then?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

And if the outcome actually turns out worse under Bhelen, what do you do then?

If they don't bother to give any plausible explanation as to why, I'd laugh at how idiotic it is.
If on the otherhand they do give a logical explanation showing why Bhelen would fail in a manner more disastrous than Harrowmont (though I really can't see how) and in a way that doesn't feel like a "gotcha" moment where they bring up something that was never in the game as a reason, then oh well, at least the choice has some meaning.

But as it stands, I can see no logical way for them to make Bhelen's rule more disastrous than Harrowmont.
Even if they kill off Bhelen (who already survived assassination attempts before and seems to have everything under control, so those who kill him have to be genuises), his reforms will not be something easily reversed. An Orzammar on a progressive path will be different from one on a regressive path.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 07:36 .

[Wereparrot]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
How are the casteless that much better off by having one dictator instead of a corrupt assembly?  Let's not make Bhelen out to be some saint.  He doesn't give the casteless any rights, he just uses them as cannon fodder and wh*res rather than ignoring them completely.  It's only a matter of opinion which is better.

He gives them rights in exchange for military service, because rights are only given with responsabilities. So no.

Go see what 200 casteless in Kal Hirol thought about finally being considered worthy of carrying a sword for their people. They willingly went to their deaths because for once in their entire miserable lives, someone thought of them worthy to fight and die for their people.

If that's what you call "canon fodder", then this is the highest honor the casteless ever got in their entire existence. And this is something they will be remembered and honored for. Rights need responsabilities. The Hoplites in Greece got their rights via Tyrants (like Pheidon of Argos).

I see no room at all for opinion. It's clear.

I would be wary of the whole casteless redemption thing. It seems to me that it may invite more crime to Orzammar proper. It's a dangerous decision.

But I think the writing is on the wall for Harrowmont when he says something about wanting to be a kind and fair king rather than strong. My warden instantly regretted his decision to go with Horrowmont. I may go back and change it.

[Elhanan]

Wereparrot wrote...

I would be wary of the whole casteless redemption thing. It seems to me that it may invite more crime to Orzammar proper. It's a dangerous decision.

But I think the writing is on the wall for Harrowmont when he says something about wanting to be a kind and fair king rather than strong. My warden instantly regretted his decision to go with Horrowmont. I may go back and change it.

Harrowmont seems to equate strong with tyrant (one wonders why), and goes with compassionate instead. While a honorable goal, the flaw is found in his comprehension of strength. I do not fault him for his goals; simply am saddened by his passing without instituting the needed reforms.

My Dwarven Wardens plan on being a strong and just ruler; either as King or as advisor. My other good Wardens may also be advisors and consultants, and will maintain their good standing with the Dwarven people.

And my living DC Warden will be a hovering sword above the head of Bhelen to help insure these planned reforms are not undermined during his lifetime.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

wizardryforever wrote...

I just don't think Orzammar's situation was so dire that a more peaceful route couldn't have been attempted.  Nor do I see a real reason for dissolving the Assembly instead of simply reforming it or just reducing its influence.

Then you haven't been reading the codexes. Orzammar's situation is critical. They are on the brink of extinction because their leadership stubbornly refuses to give up old social and cultural institutions that are backwards and keeping them from turnign back the tides.

When one's species is faced with extinction, then extreme measures are often needed. Bhelen is the only one so far willing to take those steps. peaceful, less painful solutions are not an option.

[Elhanan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Then you haven't been reading the codexes. Orzammar's situation is critical. They are on the brink of extinction because their leadership stubbornly refuses to give up old social and cultural institutions that are backwards and keeping them from turnign back the tides.

When one's species is faced with extinction, then extreme measures are often needed. Bhelen is the only one so far willing to take those steps. peaceful, less painful solutions are not an option.

Branka is too, which does not help Bhelen at all in my considerations.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elhanan wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Then you haven't been reading the codexes. Orzammar's situation is critical. They are on the brink of extinction because their leadership stubbornly refuses to give up old social and cultural institutions that are backwards and keeping them from turnign back the tides.

When one's species is faced with extinction, then extreme measures are often needed. Bhelen is the only one so far willing to take those steps. peaceful, less painful solutions are not an option.

Branka is too, which does not help Bhelen at all in my considerations.

And Branka has...what exactly, to do with this? other than being a source of golems?

Branka is not in a position of power, nor will she be. Nor is she preventing Orzammar from coming back from the brink.

[Elhanan]

Branka also seems to be willing to do anything, and seems willing to sacrifice everything to save her nation, even at the cost of a few lives she deems willing to trade for he vision. She too is willing to go to extreme measures. And as she is a Paragon that could name the next king, i am guessing she has more clout than some believe.

But as I also find her wanting in character (and mental health), I take a pass on her returning to power, too; more often than choosing Bhelen, all be told.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elhanan wrote...

Branka also seems to be willing to do anything, and seems willing to sacrifice everything to save her nation, even at the cost of a few lives she deems willing to trade for he vision. She too is willing to go to extreme measures. And as she is a Paragon that could name the next king, i am guessing she has more clout than some believe.
But as I also find her wanting in character (and mental health), I take a pass on her returning to power, too; more often than choosing Bhelen, all be told.

She has the ability to choose the next king because of the circumstances. Not because she wants to, or even cares about who becomes king. But because you approach her. otherwise, she would continue on doing whatever it was she was doing.

Branka is mad, and can't differentiate between necessary sacrifice and casula, calloused ones that are unecessary.

[Elhanan]

And Bhelen simply ousted his brothers as they were in the way for the seat he wished for his rear end. One may be crazier or craftier than the other, but personally, I find them quite the match.

Both are murderous deepstalkers, and both deserve to stop breathing by the end of game.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elhanan wrote...

And Bhelen simply ousted his brothers as they were in the way for the seat he wished for his rear end. One may be crazier or craftier than the other, but personally, I find them quite the match.
Both are murderous deepstalkers, and both deserve to stop breathing by the end of game.

Bhelen killing a brother that was a direct threat to him taking power and realizing his goals is a far cry from Branka taking her entire house, who served her, and turn them into darkspawn or broodmothers. A fate much worse than death. She even did it to her own lover, who trusted and supported her.

they just aren't even in the same class, sorry. And eventually, Bhelen gets fed up with her and decides to try and do something about it.

And as far as Bhelen killing trian, you won't find me shedding any tears over that one. trian was another typical, arrogant noble ****** wo=ho would have been a bigger bastard on the throne than Bhelen.

Besides, Harrowmont likely engaged in a fair bit of kinslaying in his day, since it seems pretty standard and normal operating procedure for the dwarves. King Endrin murdered his own brother to take power, and he was Harrowmonts bosom buddy.

[screwyajax]

I always make Bhelen king.

[Elhanan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Bhelen killing a brother that was a direct threat to him taking power and realizing his goals is a far cry from Branka taking her entire house, who served her, and turn them into darkspawn or broodmothers. A fate much worse than death. She even did it to her own lover, who trusted and supported her.

So killing a lover is more outragious than killing family in your book?

they just aren't even in the same class, sorry. And eventually, Bhelen gets fed up with her and decides to try and do something about it.

So waiting one's turn, or taking a supporting role did not appeal to the murderous Nug dropping; just wipe out both brothers, and send Dad to his deathbed. What a guy! I am starting to see what y'all see in him.....

And as far as Bhelen killing trian, you won't find me shedding any tears over that one. trian was another typical, arrogant noble ****** wo=ho would have been a bigger bastard on the throne than Bhelen.

As opposed to the charismatic deepstalker we have come to know. Trian may have been abrasive, but there would be few older siblings left in the world if all took Bhelen's methodology.

Besides, Harrowmont likely engaged in a fair bit of kinslaying in his day, since it seems pretty standard and normal operating procedure for the dwarves. King Endrin murdered his own brother to take power, and he was Harrowmonts bosom buddy.

Ah yes; speculation and conjecture over the facts. Bhelen kills two, thus Harrowmont must have done it, too. Gotcha!

Why, what was I thinking picking a family man over a kinslaying Bronto faced regent like Bhelen? Perhaps I was hoping to have a better society than the Darkspawn we oppose, as they do not seem to purposely sacrifice their own as much as this scavenger.

[Giggles_Manically]

@Elhanan

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Elhanan]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

@Elhanan
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You go ahead and gossip about Harrowmont all you wish, but it don't change the facts in game that the known Death Toll score is Bhelen: 2 brothers, and an assist on Pop; Harrowmont: 0 - zip, zero, zilch.

And if y'all are correct, doesn't that make Harrowmont a better player than Bhelen?

[Giggles_Manically]

Elhanan wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

@Elhanan
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You go ahead and gossip about Harrowmont all you wish, but it don't change the facts in game that the known Death Toll score is Bhelen: 2 brothers, and an assist on Pop; Harrowmont: 0 - zip, zero, zilch.

And if y'all are correct, doesn't that make Harrowmont a better player than Bhelen?

Okay you claim he killed his dad, when Harrowmont was sitting with him the whole time, and that their are only rumors that he did it.
Okay.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elhanan wrote...

So killing a lover is more outragious than killing family in your book?

She didn't kill Branka. She turned her into a broodmother. Along with other females of her house.

I would say that allowing darkspawn to rape a female so that she turns into a mindless, grotesque mutation that pops out more darkspawn as worse than killing someone.

So waiting one's turn, or taking a supporting role did not appeal to the murderous Nug dropping; just wipe out both brothers, and send Dad to his deathbed. What a guy! I am starting to see what y'all see in him.....

Did you sleep through the dwarf origins, or ignore the codexes on dwarven politics.propiety? Otherwise, you'd realize there is no "waiting one's turn" or any of that garbage. Obviously, you musy have confused the DA dwarven universe with another involving ponies, rainbows, and butterflies galore.

Playing a supportive role? To whom? A bunch of backwards thinking idiots who are continuing to push your race towards extinction? No, I don't think so.

As opposed to the charismatic deepstalker we have come to know. Trian may have been abrasive, but there would be few older siblings left in the world if all took Bhelen's methodology.

Wrong. In politcs, there is no family ties as you know it. Bhelen's methodology is perfectly acceptable within the world of dwarven politics and society.

By the way, I would actually start paying attention to the game a little more. You call Bhelen a deepstalker. Yet Harrowmont's family symbol/heraldry is a deepstalker, if you had bothered paying attention. 

Ah yes; speculation and conjecture over the facts. Bhelen kills two, thus Harrowmont must have done it, too. Gotcha!

Why, what was I thinking picking a family man over a kinslaying Bronto faced regent like Bhelen? Perhaps I was hoping to have a better society than the Darkspawn we oppose, as they do not seem to purposely sacrifice their own as much as this scavenger.

Right. Because picking a backwards thinking "family man" whose policies promote oppresion and the eventual death of the dwarven race is somehow going to make society better than picking a guy who kills off a nuisance relative so he can gain the throne and invoke changes that actually work, and turn back the tide.

Gotcha. What planet did you say you were from?<_<

[Elhanan]

@Giggles

Again, you may speculate that Harrowmont slipped something to his bff, even though the direct evidence is against that, as he helps the son in exile, has a letter from Enderin, etc.

I prefer to make a bit less subjective conclusion and believe the one known to haveblood on his hands just MAY have been more involved with it. But maybe that's just me.....

Modifié par Elhanan, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:24 .

[Elhanan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

....Right. Because picking a backwards thinking "family man" whose policies promote oppresion and the eventual death of the dwarven race is somehow going to make society better than picking a guy who kills off a nuisance relative so he can gain the throne and invoke changes that actually work, and turn back the tide.

Gotcha. What planet did you say you were from?<_<

The same one you seem to post from, with regrets. I tend to choose morality over murder; sue me. That seems more like Bhelen, too.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Elhanan wrote...



The same one you seem to post from, with regrets. I tend to choose morality over murder; sue me. That seems more like Bhelen, too.

Morality is a terribly shaky  ground on which to make important descisions that determine the fate of an entire race.

Not to mention it is awfully ambigious and relative. One person's "morality" is another person's "evil".

[LobselVith8]

Elhanan wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

@Elhanan
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

You go ahead and gossip about Harrowmont all you wish, but it don't change the facts in game that the known Death Toll score is Bhelen: 2 brothers, and an assist on Pop; Harrowmont: 0 - zip, zero, zilch.

And if y'all are correct, doesn't that make Harrowmont a better player than Bhelen?

We know that Bhelen orchastrates the downfall of Trian, but that can be because the middle sibling either kills Trian or is framed for it. That's dwarven politics; even Bhelen's father killed in order to get the throne. And we're never told how his father died, if it was really illness or if someone poisoned him, it's all speculation.

As for Bhelen vs. Harrowmont, the only one who will improve the lot of the casteless is Bhelen. Bhelen makes the effort to retake the lost thaigs and improve trade with the surface world. Harrowmont can't handle Branka, he's not going to make any changes to help the casteless, and he isolates Orzammar. Bhelen institutes reforms that allow the casteless to have rights. Harrowmont wants to keep everything the same, where the casteless have no rights and often have to turn to crime in order to survive. How is Harrowmont better than Bhelen when Bhelen is the only one who will make the necessary changes that Orzammar needs to survive?

[Addai]

Elhanan wrote...
Harrowmont seems to equate strong with tyrant (one wonders why), and goes with compassionate instead. While a honorable goal, the flaw is found in his comprehension of strength. I do not fault him for his goals; simply am saddened by his passing without instituting the needed reforms.

I wonder how Harrowmont got where he is and kept his position in the Aeducan orbit.  His character doesn't seem that realistic to me.  Not very "dwarven," if you get me.

@KoP, I am still going to bet on the writers living by the law of unintended consequences.  DA-land seems a lot like Song of Ice and Fire, where just when you think you're on the right path, it all goes to hell.  I'm sure that's why Harrowmont is treated as the "good" choice and then gets a bad epilogue.  Just sayin, expect the unexpected.  And until we see the outcome there's no call for comparing Bhelen to any great world leaders.

Modifié par Addai67, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:49 .