177 réponses à ce sujet

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

I like NTB's 'under the hood' approach, where the player automatically does a skill check (bluff/int/dipl) as a last chance to avoid a harsher penalty, kinda like doing a reflex save after triggering a trap. The way it looks now is that the NPC gets mad at the PC for bumping up against them, shoves them aside, and gives them a dirty look. The PC gets a penalty to sleight of hand for 45 seconds, so they can either lay low for a minute or go off and do something else. Just enough risk to be fun, people don't play rogues because they like getting caught, after all.



I got a script hook in there too, so maybe eventually I can give random NPCs special reactions, like the one who rather enjoys you bumping into them, or the one with a hair-trigger temper. A whole system with guards, reputation, and a thieves guild will have to wait for a more rogue-specific mod.

[nicethugbert]

So, pocket bear traps and being peppered with arrows from local rogues from behind a nest of traps are still a possibility? NEAT!

[manageri]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

The way it looks now is that the NPC gets mad at the PC for bumping up against them, shoves them aside, and gives them a dirty look. The PC gets a penalty to sleight of hand for 45 seconds, so they can either lay low for a minute or go off and do something else.

You do realize every player that really wants to pick pocket that NPC will go for option C and just load the game, yes? You're allowing them endless chances exactly like the standard system, you just turned 6 seconds into 45, which will then be turned into ~20 with a load game. Your system is not success or fail, it's success now or success later, so there's really no point in a check at all. I really can't think of a less fun way to penalize the player than to basically force them to stop playing for 45 seconds and go make a sandwich. If they wanted to go do something else they wouldn't be there pickpocketing people in the first place, why would it be fun for them to have you tell them what they can do and when?

What the best way to handle a failed attempt is is debatable, but you really need to get rid of the endless tries IMO. As long as that's in place the player might as well just console their DEX up to 50 and go pick pocket everyone, the risk is exactly the same in the end. Instead of cheating that's just saving time.

[nicethugbert]

Penalize and fun in the same sentence, hmm, what does that remind me of?



Who says I'm going to reload a module for 20gp?



Pickpocketing can be done while invisible, ethereal, or disguised, with the aid of distraction, in darkness, as a confidence trick, etc.



No more tries after fail is dull.

[manageri]

nicethugbert wrote...

Pickpocketing can be done while invisible, ethereal, or disguised, with the aid of distraction, in darkness, as a confidence trick, etc.

No more tries after fail is dull.

In other words you want endless tries? Which translates into eventual success. Which means there's zero challenge.

You can also have things like invisibility affect PP without having endless tries. If you do have endless tries though then why would you bother with such things, you can just come back and try again, so your ideas kinda undermine each other.

And are you really suggesting standing there like a scarecrow hitting one button every 45 seconds is an awesome gameplay mechanic?

The only way that endless tries isn't the worst game mechanic ever is to have penalties for failure, but then you have to figure out a way to make those harsh enough for the player to care about while simultaneously being not so harsh that you basically force them to load the game. If it's not harsh enough you're back to endless tries. If it's too harsh you're basically at a single try (or NO tries if the player decides he'd rather not spend his day staring at the loading screen which is what I chose in the BG games).

Why would you torture your brain trying to solve that paradox though when you can just make the damn skill like everything else and give the player a single try without penalties and that's that. It's not realistic, but it's the best option I can come up with for gameplay in this kind of game .It's worth keeping in mind that the rules are made for PnP where you don't have the quicksave button and adjustments are occasionally necessary to make the game not suck.

[Arkalezth]

Agreed with manageri. The way I see it, most players will wait 45 seconds and try again. And that's too much time to wait doing nothing, and too few to do something else.

I agree that reloading for 20gp is dumb, but I think people will either reload, or wait, be it 20gp or whatever.

I like the skill checks idea. Also (not fail related): if you integrate Sleight of Hand in conversations, you could use other skills (Bluff, Perform...) to distract the NPC and reduce the DC of the pickpocket check.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

A single-try or hard fail system I think forces the player to reload, while a milder penalty encourages them to keep playing without a reload. In practice, the skill decrease effect means that a pickpocket works a crowd until they get detected, then they stop and do something else. If the player really wants to keep pickpocketing, then they have a wait a little bit for things to cool down, which seems realistic to me. In terms of cost, it's just as costly as getting injured in combat, you can stop and rest or stop and leave.

Besides, pickpocketed loot is basically just a bonus for spending skill points in sleight of hand, so the real cost (not choosing a different skill or class) has already been paid by the player, so there's no point making the player pay too much a second time for actually using the skill. Also, the loot involved is so minor, and easily depleted, that a player probably won't spend hours spamming sleight-of-hand unless they really enjoy being a pickpocket.

And that, of course, is the whole point, to give someone who wants to role-play a pickpocket a chance to use their character's skills in the course of a routine trip into town, and not as part of a one-off quest.

[Arkalezth]

I understood it wrong before, I thought you couldn't use the skill for 45 seconds. It's not that bad, then, though it depends on the penalty. If it's big, players will probably wait anyway. And that's boring, realistic or not. So I'd make the penalty small, maybe growing bigger after several fails.

[manageri]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

In practice, the skill decrease effect means that a pickpocket works a
crowd until they get detected, then they stop and do something else.

Or loads the game and wonders why anyone would want to make them sit there for 45 seconds doing absolutely nothing when the standard 6 seconds is boring enough. Since you allow unlimited tries they might also wonder why they shouldn't just console their DEX up and pickpocket everything on the first try since the module is designed to allow you to have all that loot anyway, it's just a matter of how much time you wanna spend staring at "you cannot use that skill for another x seconds" which is possibly the single most boring way I could imagine spending my time in this game and hence why I never pick up sleight of hand anymore.

If the player really wants to keep pickpocketing, then they have a wait
a little bit for things to cool down, which seems realistic to me.

Realistic != automatically great mechanic. It'd also be very realistic to make the player just sit there for 8 hours when traveling from Neverwinter to Crossroad Keep.

And that, of course, is the whole point, to give someone who wants
to role-play a pickpocket a chance to use their character's skills in
the course of a routine trip into town, and not as part of a one-off
quest.

There are less tedious ways to do that, for example when entering the town you can just have a conversation pop up that asks if you'd like to try picking some pockets at the market. If you do, then the game does some rolls and gives you some gold and miscellaneous small items. You can make this occur X times per level so you can't do it repeatedly and need to go do something else in between like you described. I bet that would be pretty quick to whip up, certainly not much more time consuming than placing all that loot on NPCs, and would increase at least my enjoyment about 894709% if I had to use the skill.

[Arkalezth]

Having thought more about it, the 45 seconds penalty sounds a bit pointless to me. You can still pickpocket infinite times, so there's no real loss. No real consecuences. If that's the best option, better to leave it as default. Less boring. If you ask me, I'd even drop the default 5 seconds mechanic. As manageri said, reality is nice, but funny gameplay is much more important here.

And rewarding the player who spends ranks in the skill is good, but I think the default mechanic already does that. I prefer maxing out the skill, succeding every time I use it, than having to use it several times, waiting 5 seconds after each fail. 45 is too much. If you are sold on the penalty, what about imposing the penalty, but taking out the 5 seconds?

I think you should add some real consecuence (higher prices, not being able to pickpocket that NPC again, some dialogue, whatever), with an actual impact on the game.

There will always be someone who reloads, but that's not your concern. You can also spend lots of times creating an interesting battle, just for someone to come and use god mode cheats.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 10 janvier 2011 - 08:35 .

[rjshae]

A problem with a crime response system that punishes on failure is that players can just reload from the last save and keep trying until they succeed. It might pay to reward failure with some instant XP, as if the character learned from their mistake, before applying the game penalty for the crime.

[Arkalezth]

That's...interesting, but, really, if the XP is few, it won't change anything, and if it's a good amount, people can start failing on purpose.

A module builder can't control every possible reload. That depends on the player. I know I don't like to wait while looking at the loading screen just to gain a couple coins. If someone else finds that funny, that's his/her call.

[manageri]

Arkalezth wrote...

A module builder can't control every possible reload. That depends on the player. I know I don't like to wait while looking at the loading screen just to gain a couple coins. If someone else finds that funny, that's his/her call.

That's true but then if you have a really harsh penalty and don't wanna reload it's no longer worth the risk to use sleight of hand at all. Example:

50% chance to gain 20 gold
50% chance to have a guard fine you for 500 gold.

What's the point of the skill again in that case? Yet another issue that's solved by just making the skill like everything else: success or fail, one try, no penalties.

[dunniteowl]

Here's a thought now that my head is more clear.

Maybe you don't call out the guard, because the PCs can whomp 'em.  That doesn't mean you can't, on, say, the 3rd failed attempt, instantly transport them to the local gaol where they now have to:

1) Wait out their term (which might open up a sidequest and escape attempt scenario)
2) Pay the Captain of the Guard (you did indicate that the local constabulary were basically corrupt) to release you later on (you know, it's just a fine, pay it and I'll let you out later tonight when the guard is asleep.  No sense in reducing my handling fee for the fine by involving others...)
3) Go immediately to the edge of town and the gates are closed.  You've been barred from entering town!

Other options can apply.

As to the whole ****** off the player base and make them sit there waiting?  I don't think that was the intent.  What I would do is add an effect on the first fail that increases the DC for success.  Another failed attempt and I'd stack the DC modifier again.  Another failed attempt and the mob gets ugly.

Other options include a visit by the local Thieves' Guild "Enforcers" Vinnie and ****** to edgamicate yas 'bout boosting in our territry.  Ya can thanks Da Boss we don'ts kills ya.  (and you can just have them show up as a cutscene, with it ending up the party transported to a back alley, missing one or two items apiece (in the party) and half your cash removed as a "Temporary One Time Licensing Fee" to the Guild.  And the clear message would be, join the Guild or join the corpses next time.

And in any scenario like that, perhaps autosaving just before you dump them, so that they now have to make a hard choice.  Play from there or reload with a steep lesson learned (from however far back) about how to conduct your 'business' in town.

I think hard lessons are not automatic reloads.  I think unduly excessive or inherently unfair and arbitrary outcomes result in the reload.  If someone gets a sound drubbing and the story, plot and actions leading up to it and post from it are relatively believeable, then the player is just as likely to proceed from there, smarting from the experience in one way and appreciative of the details in another.

Then again, I like falling out of trees, so there's that to consider.

dunniteowl

[kamalpoe]

The guard has a "Swat team" they call in to deal with adventurers. Otherwise evil adventurers would be running willy nilly through the city.

[Shaughn78]

manageri wrote...

50% chance to gain 20 gold
50% chance to have a guard fine you for 500 gold.

That exampled is definatley one sided, to fix it track the success and add bonus gold and exp that increases with each successful pickpocket. Have the bonuses starts over again with a failure. I would suggest that multiple failures in a row should have something as well.

Modifié par Shaughn78, 10 janvier 2011 - 10:06 .

[nicethugbert]

Endless tries is Presidential. No retries is Nanny State-ism.

manageri wrote...
Why would you torture your brain trying to
solve that paradox though when you can just make the damn skill like
everything else and give the player a single try without penalties and
that's that. It's not realistic, but it's the best option I can come up
with for gameplay in this kind of game .It's worth keeping in mind that
the rules are made for PnP where you don't have the quicksave button and
adjustments are occasionally necessary to make the game not suck.

Because it's not a paradox.  It's just a problem you can't solve.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 10 janvier 2011 - 10:57 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

Is there someway we can work a booby mod into this scenario?

[Arkalezth]

Yes, if you play a naked female NPC for the entire module, merchants will empty their pockets for you without any skill check. You'll also be automatically in command of both the guard and the thieves guild, and will be able to romance the end boss.

The bonuses will be lower or inexistant if your race is dwarf, half-orc or gray orc.

[nicethugbert]

Not allowing any retries for pickpocketing is about as immersive as reloading. They are both OOC.

You guys are getting side tracked by non-sense such as reloads. Reloads are a part of the game. You can't do anything about. Forget about it. It's not the point of the game and being able to do so does not spoil the game for the player. You gain nothing by letting it bother you.

The game in question is pick pocketing. What is pick pocketing? It is undetected theft. You may be able to pick pocket someone if you have not been caught pick pocketing in the past. But if you are known to pick pocket then doing so again should require skill and circumstance to avoid having your presence or motive detected.

So, for a retry pickpocketing after failed attempt would require bluff to regain others confidence, intimidate to enforce compliance, or stealth to avoid having your presence detected.

If pickpocketing is being done in the perception range of multiple witnesses who know you to be a pickpocket and they have a shared interest in your failure to pick pocket then their combined perception can combine to thwart your further attempts at pickpocketing any of them in their perception range.

If you are caught pick pocketing, you can try to suppress knowledge of it. Suppressing knowledge of it means that only the target knows you to be a pick pocket.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 11 janvier 2011 - 12:03 .

[Kaldor Silverwand]

If I really cared about this, I'd consider having a small XP loss when pickpocketing fails, and after three failed attempts on the same person anything they have in inventory becomes non-droppable. You could use a variable on the NPC to indicate if they have some plot item that must remain droppable.

If people want to reload then they can spend their time doing so. The problem of course is that they will then whine that you are making them reload needlessly, so they say just allow them to pickpocket endlessly, which gets us right back to where we started. The pickpocket system (and secret door system and death system and rest system) implemented in NWN2 was designed to satisfy whiners. Real gamers accept the consequences of their gameplay and do not metagame to work around their mistakes. I personally feel no need to cater to the whiners. I build for people who I assume want to play.

My $.02.

Regards

Modifié par Kaldor Silverwand, 11 janvier 2011 - 01:09 .

[nicethugbert]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Is there someway we can work a booby mod into this scenario?

Booby traps?

BOOOOOBYYYYYYYYYY

[nicethugbert]

XP lose on fail would be a simple elegant solution.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Here is a thread that includes some information on trapping failed pickpocket attempts.



Regards

[Eguintir Eligard]

Is it really that hard to just copy BG2 and make them hostile on a fail? Wow look at that I just blinded you with science (and ended this silliness)