177 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaughn78]

DNO made some good ideas and a few of these things could be implimented with a on client enter script and exit script.



Some of this would essentially scrap the old system and use a new gui, added -pickpocket- option on the right click.



The pocket is picked and a variable is set on that NPC so they cannot be pickpocketed again.

If the player is successful they move on to their next target.

If they are caught a time stamp is set and all the NPCs within a radius of the failed target have the cannot pickpocket variable set. Also drop the reputation with defenders by 5-10 points.



The player can now go a street over and start again. if they fail to many times the defender faction guards will eventually attack.



The on exit script can store the decreased reputation value of the defender faction and restore it to 100% for the next area.



When the player returns to that area the on client enter script fires. If there is no time stamp or a certain amount of time has passed since the time stamp the defender repuation remains at 100% and all NPCs are returned to pickpocketable. If enough time has not passed the reputation of the defenders is set back to the on exit value and all pickpocket values remain the same.



This whole system can be script based and not require items on a NPC to get.



There will be a default DC check and random roll for items. This will prevent the decreasing gold. Certain NPCs can have variables set on them to increase their DC or have increased or special items/treaure to steal.



With the pickpocket variables I would suggest 3 values. 0 = NPC can be pick pocketed. 1 = can't pick pocketed. This would be assigned after a successful attempt or to the bystanders in the radius around a fail. 2 = failed pickpocket. With the on client enter this value will not return to 0. They will remember you and you will never be able to pick pocket them again.



This will prevent "spamming." The player will be able to pickpocket each NPC once per visit to the area provided they aren't caught. If they are caught they will never be able to pickpocket that target again. A number of people they didn't pickpocket will change to non pickable and a small reputation change to the city guard. Enough fails within a certain time will cause the guards to turn hostile, but leaving the area and doing something else will reset everything (excluding the failed individuals)

[nicethugbert]

manageri wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Manageri, could you remind me of your brilliant solution?

I just explained what I would and would not do and gave reasons as to why. How about you address my points instead of pretending I didn't make any? Maybe start with the challenge I presented in my last post.

All I remember you saying is Infinite Retries and Reloads = Bad, Fail =
No More Tries For You = Good. You haven't even bothered to suggest
diminishing returns or diminishing anything.

So because I didn't suggest your solution (except that I kinda did as you're about to find out) I haven't posted any solution?

Here's the problem with what you just said; Diminishing returns IS limited tries. If my first try to PP someone can get me 20 gold, and the second try after failing the first can only give me 10 gold, then I have wasted my ONE AND ONLY TRY to gain that 20 gold. My single try system simply cuts the needless crap and slams those returns right down to zero after try number one.

If you instead mean that the NPC still has the full 20 gold and I just need to PP him more times now to gain it all, then you're still at unlimited tries, it just takes longer, which is in essence no different than the standard system where failing one roll means you just have to take at least 6 seconds longer, you're simply stretching that extra time.

What?  You're still arguing for No Tries After Fail?  I was hoping you had evolved something more playable than that.

As for points, what points?  The point that I find your all or nothing approach boring?

You are ignorring the fact that some people are not interested in a challenge.  That's what they have RL for.  What they want is a fun playable story, an interesting journey of discovery.

Your all or nothing approach leaves nothing to the imagnation.  There is no discovery.  It's just a "No More Cookie For You!" attitude.

I'd like something with more moving parts, more dimension, more possibilites, such as using the convo skills to mitigate the situation and rogue hit'n'run attacks.  Trying to mitigate triggering a surprse volley of sneak attacks is a more interesting possibility than just never being able to PP an NPC ever again because they finally put on their Cap of See All and Know All when you are around.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 13 janvier 2011 - 07:26 .

[nicethugbert]

If a party member fails PP then intimidate can be used to make the merchant submissive and not sound an alarm, bluff can be used to make the merchant think he was not PP'ed or that some one else did it or some other BS, diplomacy can be used to beg or bribe for forgiveness or othewise make amends. So, diplomacy can be a loss.

How about other merchants? Can they witness the commotion caused by the failed PP? Would they work together to thwart further PP or would they just look after themselves? Would rivalries play a part? What about other NPC's

Intimidate, bluff, and diplomacy could be applied to them also to further mitigate the damage.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 13 janvier 2011 - 04:39 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

Why should you get a second chance after failing to pick? Do you get a second chance after failing to survive a battle? NAY

[nicethugbert]

Raise Dead and Resurrection says you are wrong. So do repeat offenders, wife beaters, con artists, and other assorted malcontents. Now, why would you want to upset them, EE?

[Haplose]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Why should you get a second chance after failing to pick? Do you get a second chance after failing to survive a battle? NAY

Agreed. I WANT to reload if I fail at such a task.
Well, maybe use one of the skillschecks NTB mentioned as a get-away ticket. But I sure as hell don't expect to try this again after being caught!

[manageri]

nicethugbert wrote...

What?  You're still arguing for No Tries After Fail?  I was hoping you had evolved something more playable than that.

Refuse to directly respond to anything that was said, change topics, mock the the opposing view without actually pointing out what's wrong...Yeah, it's an NTB "response" alright!

As for points, what points?  The point that I find your all or nothing approach boring?

All the things I wrote that you ignored. That would be 99% of everything I've written.

If you don't agree with my goals for what a PP system should be like then you have no need to respond to me, you could just say you want completely different things out of it. For example, if you simply must have unlimited tries then our visions of a PP system are completely incompatible and we have nothing to discuss. Note I use the word "discuss" with a very broad definition when interacting with you.

You are ignorring the fact that some people are not interested in a challenge.  That's what they have RL for.  What they want is a fun playable story, an interesting journey of discovery.

You're correct, I am completely ignoring players who prefer to play with dm_god and all stats at 50, and/or who think they should succeed at all skill checks. I don't see any point in designing a system for these people when they can just take whatever system you build for other players and cheat their way through that and they'll be happy.

Your all or nothing approach leaves nothing to the imagnation.  There is no discovery.  It's just a "No More Cookie For You!" attitude.

That makes no sense whatsoever. What "discovery"? You're picking pockets, not researching the mating habits of giraffes.

It is indeed a "no cookie for you" if you fail the skill check. This is what happens when you fail any check and I like that. If you dont, use the console, and you'll have your own guaranteed success system.

I'd like something with more moving parts, more dimension, more possibilites, such as using the convo skills to mitigate the situation and rogue hit'n'run attacks. Trying to mitigate triggering a surprse volley of sneak attacks is a more interesting possibility than just never being able to PP an NPC ever again because they finally put on their Cap of See All and Know All when you are around.

Ok. My suggestion isn't incompatible with that.

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Why should you get a
second chance after failing to pick? Do you get a second chance after
failing to survive a battle? NAY

nicethugbert wrote...



Raise Dead and Resurrection says you
are wrong.

No they don't.

- If everyone dies no one is there to ress, at which point you have to load the game. Since you're maybe thinking about it...No wait, you never respond to actual criticism of your positions so let me rephrase that - If someone else is thinking of saying "one guy can still die in a battle and be ressed", that's true but then you haven't failed the battle. Battle is a team sport, picking pockets is not.
- A proper analogy to endless PP is the respawn button, which gives you endless tries to win a fight without loading the game

[Eguintir Eligard]

Why does a whole faction hate you because one attacks? Does that global reputations setting in the campaign do anything at all?

[nicethugbert]

manageri wrote...

You're correct, I am completely ignoring players who prefer to play with dm_god and all stats at 50, and/or who think they should succeed at all skill checks.

This is a good example of one of your points and why I don't bother addressing them.

manageri wrote...

Your all or nothing approach leaves nothing to the imagnation.  There is no discovery.  It's just a "No More Cookie For You!" attitude.

That makes no sense whatsoever. What "discovery"? You're picking pockets, not researching the mating habits of giraffes.

Another one of your "points".

manageri wrote...

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Why should you get a
second chance after failing to pick? Do you get a second chance after
failing to survive a battle? NAY

nicethugbert wrote...

Raise Dead and Resurrection says you
are wrong.

No they don't.

- If everyone dies no one is there to ress, at which point you have to load the game. Since you're maybe thinking about it...No wait, you never respond to actual criticism of your positions so let me rephrase that - If someone else is thinking of saying "one guy can still die in a battle and be ressed", that's true but then you haven't failed the battle. Battle is a team sport, picking pockets is not.
- A proper analogy to endless PP is the respawn button, which gives you endless tries to win a fight without loading the game

Who says the rest of the party will survive without the dead party member?  It is not unreasonable for the rest of the party to mitigate a rogue's PP fail like a cleric would res you.  But, that's where the similarity ends.  PP is not combat.  It is it's own situaton that can be sorted out on it's own.  But, you expect me to waste time pointing that out, as well as handling the rest of your endless "points".

You're POV is that no retries is the only acceptable solution.  Everything must be No Reries.  So all your points are just attempts to rip down anything that disagrees with that.  It's not a constructive approach.  It's not creative.  And it's a one size fits all POV which makes everything in the game the same and dumbed down.  I find it boring.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 14 janvier 2011 - 12:35 .

[nicethugbert]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Why does a whole faction hate you because one attacks? Does that global reputations setting in the campaign do anything at all?

Because they are gossipy cry babies.  Give them boobs and they'll settle down.  Plus, you'll hit +50k downloads.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Question #2: why does haplose think people care when/if he reloads the game as if it is somehow in anyones control but his own?

[nicethugbert]

Because he wears a black hood.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Isnt there a way to have some one attack without affecting the reputation of the faction? I know from personal experience that setting the global faction etc field does jack squat like so many toolset features

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

You could change them to a different, standard faction. So you could set the Hostile faction to only be hostile towards the PC, and then you can change your commoners and merchants to that faction as they attack the PC.

Times like this would be ideal for a non-lethal mode for combat. Maybe one could set the immortal flag on all creatures within a certain area, and remove it as they left, including the PC and companions. Then you'd need to script some other way to end combat, either by knocking people out at a certain hitpoint percentage, or some kind of surrender/disengagement by switching factions.

[Eguintir Eligard]

I think I've come to an equitable solution for my own self as I like to include all skills and Islander didnt do anything special for pickpocket.

Change to hostile faction with a long timer (like several minutes). That way you can botch a pick pocket and the commoner goes hostile BG style but also in that vein you can leave the area and they will forget about your sins if you come back later, as they will return to their old commoner/merchant faction.

Now I'm just going to script a way to disable the load game menu option and send a nasty email to anyone who tries to reload.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 14 janvier 2011 - 05:52 .

[manageri]

nicethugbert wrote...

This is a good example of one of your points and why I don't bother addressing them.

So just quoting my posts and not actually commenting on them at all is your idea of a response?

Who says the rest of the party will survive without the dead party member?

If they did survive then they succeeded in the fight. If they didn't it's load game time. What part of that is unclear?

It is not unreasonable for the rest of the party to mitigate a rogue's PP fail like a cleric would res you.  But, that's where the similarity ends.  PP is not combat.  It is it's own situaton that can be sorted out on it's own.  But, you expect me to waste time pointing that out, as well as handling the rest of your endless "points".

So when EE compares PP to combat and you tell him that there's second chances in combat too thanks to resses, then it's ok to compare PP and combat, but when I point out your analogy doesn't work then all of a sudden "PP is not combat".

You're POV is that no retries is the only acceptable solution. Everything must be No Reries.

Limited tries, not necessarily just one, is acceptable and I've said that. Once you have limited tries I see no point in wasting anyone's time doing more than one (exactly like other skills) but that's still basically the same system.

So all your points are just attempts to rip down anything that disagrees with that.

It's called criticism, you know, the point of the thread and the thing that your idea of is just quoting someone.

It's not a constructive approach.

If pointing out ideas you consider bad isn't contructive to you I'd like to hear your definition.

It's not creative.  And it's a one size fits all POV which makes everything in the game the same and dumbed down.  I find it boring.

I have no problem with PP being a special snowflake with rules all its own IF those rules are good. I think the standard system is horrible and I've clearly pointed out the goals I think a good system must meet, and also why I think the often used "unlimited tries but severe penalties for failure" system isn't good. I directly asked you to respond to that but you ignored me (unless your diminishing returns idea was supposed to be that response, but since you refuse to answer my criticism of it and instead moved on to other points I can only conclude it wasn't, or you're incapable of an honest discussion). So let's try again, I'm even gonna paste it here. Answer the direct question this time or I'm done with you:

"can anyone specify what a functional risk (meaning punishment for failure) would be that both:

- Means you can't spam it all day long and
- Still makes the skill worth using and investing in

Other
than limited tries with no penalties (or very small penalties that are
clearly lesser than the rewards), how do you make both happen? If anyone
has a better solution that meets those goals, let me know."

After that I wrote:

"If you don't
care about those goals then of course feel free to use the meteor
option or the standard system."

So before anything else, answer that. Do you agree with those goals or not? If not, then discussing what a good system is would be meaningless as our definitions of a good system are different. If you agree with the goals, then give me a system that is not limited tries that meets the goals in a better way.

[Haplose]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Question #2: why does haplose think people care when/if he reloads the game as if it is somehow in anyones control but his own?

Because I'm a casual player? Like, you know, the people that sometimes download and play these modules?
To present a point of view that not everyone wants everything "streamlined"...

I want to fail, I want to loose combat encounters... actually I very much desire challenges in game (as long, as they are solvable, of course).

In life you don't really get second chances if you get yourself killed.. more often then not you will also be in a nasty situation if you're caught red-handed stealing.

Modifié par Haplose, 14 janvier 2011 - 06:45 .

[nicethugbert]

manageri wrote...

Who says the rest of the party will survive without the dead party member?

If they did survive then they succeeded in the fight. If they didn't it's load game time. What part of that is unclear?

The part where the importance of the now dead party member becomes obvious to the party.

That would require thought with a resolution greater than 2 bit binary, something beyond reloads and retries.

manageri wrote...

"can anyone specify what a functional risk (meaning punishment for failure) would be that both:

- Means you can't spam it all day long and
- Still makes the skill worth using and investing in

Other
than limited tries with no penalties (or very small penalties that are
clearly lesser than the rewards), how do you make both happen? If anyone
has a better solution that meets those goals, let me know."

After that I wrote:

"If you don't
care about those goals then of course feel free to use the meteor
option or the standard system."

So before anything else, answer that. Do you agree with those goals or not? If not, then discussing what a good system is would be meaningless as our definitions of a good system are different. If you agree with the goals, then give me a system that is not limited tries that meets the goals in a better way.

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

I'm trying to make my
work-in-progress a bit more rogue friendly, so I was going through and
adding pickpocketable items to various NPC's.  Normally a failed
pickpocket attempt results in the  NPC attacking the player, but this
behavior can be easily changed by altering the NPC's on-disturbed event.
Since
I don't want my players breaking the mod by fighting friendly factions,
I was wondering what kind of simple penatly I could give the player for
failing (a more elaborate system, of course, could use non-global
factions, scripted guards, and a prison system, but I'll save that for
another project).
I'm leaning towards an indigant remark from the NPC
and maybe a little bit of damage to the offending PC, but I was
wondering what else was possible.

[nicethugbert]

The amount of gold that is pick pocketed could be dependent on the amount of success in pick pocketing, likewise, for the penalty for failing.

Just like intimidate, bluff, and diplomacy can be used on the target to mitigate failure, the target could use them on the pick pocket or party. The target could intimidate, bluff, of pursuade the PCs to return the money or take some other action or inflict greater penalties.

Penalties can be used instead of timers. Penalties can be cumulative and returns can be diminishing.

You could have critical success and failure too. World of Tor, an NWN1 PW, borrowed such a system from some game. IIRC, if you roll 95 or above you have a critical success. 5 or less is a critical failure. You can keep rolling as long as you keep hitting 95+ or 5-. The results keep piling up.

And to reiterate, Pocket Bear Traps = WIN!

Modifié par nicethugbert, 14 janvier 2011 - 05:09 .

[The Fred]

Personally I'm kind of in favour of one-shot deals if it's, say, a skill check in conversation. If that conversation's long, involved and/or important, people don't want to reload afterwards. If, however, it's something where people can save, try it, and then reload, it's not really suitable. Perhaps people *shouldn't* reload, and if they do it's hardly the fault of the builder - however, I feel the builder ought at least to try and minimise such one-shot succeed-or-reload events. Giving people an alternative outcome other than "fail" is one way, but it's hard to do that for every possible pick-pocket. A long delay is almost as bad as never being able to try again - in Planescape, for example, I find myself reloading when I die even though I *can't* die (for those who don't know, the main character is immortal) because I don't want to sneak out of the Mortuary again. When it's all based on a single, easy-to-make skill check, though, it's harder. I think the best thing might just be to use conversation-based checks for this sort of thing. Penalties might be better than timers, but they're still in broadly the same vein - after all, why can't I reload on failure just the same if I have a penalty?

[Eguintir Eligard]

oh so that wasnt sarcasm when you said you want to reload. Then we agree haplose, despite your shady head covering.

[Haplose]

nicethugbert wrote...

The amount of gold that is pick pocketed could be dependent on the amount of success in pick pocketing, likewise, for the penalty for failing.

Pick-pocketing gold? Booring!

I mean it might be the bread-and-butter of pick-pocketing but... it's just sooo boooring!

Wouldn't bother with this skill just for gold. If you want to make it exciting, plant some unique, valuable and interesting items which can only be obtained by pick-pocket or are very difficult to get otherwise.

[nicethugbert]

Pick Pocking gold is not boring when you have little of it and want to save up for that 3000gp Full Plate, or even just some measly heal kits. The low level low resource games can be made fun too.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Ya some items sprinkled in is awesome. For example a very TOUGH optional battle, coupled with the agro option would be a great way to run a high dc pick pocket. You suceed you get a regen ring +2 you fail the group agros and you are in a tough fight.

[Arkalezth]

Haplose wrote...

Wouldn't bother with this skill just for gold. If you want to make it exciting, plant some unique, valuable and interesting items which can only be obtained by pick-pocket or are very difficult to get otherwise.

This.