177 réponses à ce sujet

[The Fred]

Except surely then I can just fail the pick-pocket, kill the guys, get the item I wanted AND get the XP too?

I mean, it's not that these ideas are bad, but really you need to build the whole game around them for them to work. For example, pick pocketing for a few measly coins only has any point when you're poor. In many games your own pockets are literally overflowing with gold so there's no point.

It strikes me that just adding a couple of rogue quests, maybe with pick-pocket checks within them, might be better (since a comparison with BG was drawn, there was that thief Narlan Darkwalk or somesuch in the city who offered a short chain of quests where you could rob a gem fencer etc and there was another quest to steal the Halruuan ship pieces from the wizard's daughters which was ironically better done as a mage with Invisibility).

Modifié par The Fred, 14 janvier 2011 - 11:35 .

[nicethugbert]

Agreed on pick pocketing more than gold and ensuing fights. You can pick pocket more than gold in Path of Evil.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Wow really fred I NEVER would have thought of that.

So let me get this huge lack of foresight on behalf correct:
-If you want to take a risk on a pick pocket, you can be rewarded by an item.
-If you want to take a risk on a pick pocket AND a huge fight, you can be rewarded by an item AND additional XP.

Wow thats totally stupid I'm sorry I brought it up. <_< What is that anyway some kind of wacky joining of risk and reward?
I should take my meds.

Anyway thanks for highlighting the benefits, I mean, um, drawbacks of my plan.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 15 janvier 2011 - 12:48 .

[kamal_]

nicethugbert wrote...
Agreed on pick pocketing more than gold and ensuing fights. You can pick pocket more than gold in Path of Evil.

What I did was give some creatures potions and whatnot for them to use in combat (instead of letting the monster have some cheating heal ability), but made sure they would be pickpocketable. Also you can pickpocket smaller things that they are not holding (daggers in inventory for instance) and sometimes something they are wearing (ring, amulet) since I've seen those palmed by theives on shows about pickpockets.

As a result, pickpocket can give you a large combat advantage, as you can sometimes pickpocket the person's weapon or potions of healing, including full heal potions that you pretty much can not buy in the campaign.

Of course I was also making an evil campaign, so pickpocketing could be very much in character for rogues. Leaving it out would have been a hole in evil options.

[The Fred]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Wow really fred I NEVER would have thought of that.

So let me get this huge lack of foresight on behalf correct:
-If you want to take a risk on a pick pocket, you can be rewarded by an item.
-If you want to take a risk on a pick pocket AND a huge fight, you can be rewarded by an item AND additional XP.

Wow thats totally stupid I'm sorry I brought it up. <_< What is that anyway some kind of wacky joining of risk and reward?
I should take my meds.

Anyway thanks for highlighting the benefits, I mean, um, drawbacks of my plan.

Am I detecting a hint of sarcasm there? The point I'm making is, there isn't really and risk, and there is no reward for pick-pocketing. In fact, this benefits non-rogues more than rogues. I don't know if Sleight of Hand is a trained skill, which would mean I would have to take at least one point in it, but I could be a power-built combat machine with NO pick pocket skill, attempt the pick pocket, fail, and get better rewards than a successful rogue. In fact, if NPCs need to be attackable to be pickpocketable, I could just attack them flat out. So why the hell would I want to play a rogue? This plan doesn't make the game more rogue-friendly, nor does it encourage rogue use - in fact, quite the opposite.

[Arkalezth]

Can't an item be pickpocketable, but not droppable when killing a NPC?

I don't know if the words "pickpocketable" and "droppable" exist, but you get my meaning.

[kamal_]

Arkalezth wrote...

Can't an item be pickpocketable, but not droppable when killing a NPC?
I don't know if the words "pickpocketable" and "droppable" exist, but you get my meaning.

Yes, in fact those are the names of the checkboxes used. I made things that were pickpocketable also droppable, but they do not have to be.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Fred I'm gonna file your reply under my highly illogical posts folder and leave it at that. The day anyone else buys into this crackpot theory that making quality items pickpocketable discourages rogues if anything, as you put it, is the day my butt turns green.

Ark just because thats an option doesnt mean you should. How could a rogue possibly "steal" an item from a living character who is being vigialante but somehow fail to locate it off their dead body? Its preposterous

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 15 janvier 2011 - 02:38 .

[Arkalezth]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Ark just because thats an option doesnt mean you should. How could a rogue possibly "steal" an item from a living character who is being vigialante but somehow fail to locate it off their dead body? Its preposterous

I agree that it makes no sense in reality, but prevents this:

-If you want to take a risk on a pick pocket, you can be rewarded by an item.
-If you want to take a risk on a pick pocket AND a huge fight, you can be rewarded by an item AND additional XP.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Well thats logical. Clearly I want to prevent the exact thing I set out to achieve. Did you even look at who made that quote before you quoted it? Or read the post?

I think perhaps I wasn't clear enough the first time, but pointing out the benefits of my plan as a reason not to do it is about the worst job you could do in debating the topic. Like really, is there some kind of disconnect here? I'll try a bigger attention getter:

That's what I want it to be like. This is the most ridiculous discussion I have ever had.
It's called risk vs reward, it's also called having more than one option to achieve a solution.

It's as if I created a race car and 2 people came skipping along pushing your glasses their faces like some lab tech and said "excuse me sir, there's an issue you havent thought of. Your race car is going to be very fast".


If you can't grasp the concept any better than that, I give up. You can keep pointing out the benefits of my plan if you want but you only make my case for me.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 15 janvier 2011 - 03:58 .

[manageri]

EE, what you're missing is that when you can just stab people for that loot then what good does it do a rogue to pick up sleight of hand? It's a complete waste of skill points. You're giving a player these options:

- Kill people and gain loot and XP
- spend points in sleight of hand for a chance to gain that same loot but not the XP

So with your system the purpose of sleight of hand becomes to reduce your XP gain and nothing else, unless the only way to make those NPCs killable is to first make them hostile with a failed PP, but then it becomes better to have only one rank in the skill and to minimize your chances of success by stacking armor check penalty etc.

Why would I ever invest in the skill under those circumstances? The only way I can see that could make any sense is if the pick pocketable creatures are like 15 levels higher than you and will obliterate your party with 99% certainty, but that's hardly the case when picking random commoners' pockets and you didn't imply anything of the sort either.

[Arkalezth]

Manageri and Fred already explained it. I (and them, too) want to prevent what I quoted. YMMV. If pickpocket gives me no benefit, even losing XP in comparison, there's no point in investing points in the skill.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 15 janvier 2011 - 05:44 .

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Pick pocket isn't really fixable. In the real world a pick pocket is going to make one attempt at someone and there are two goals: getting something and not getting caught. If they are detected they are not going to kill the person.



In a fantasy game in which violence abounds this just doesn't work. Role playing a rogue properly, if you are a pickpocket then you should always avoid violence. But this is a violent game so violence is always an option.



Whatever inconvenience to the player would be introduced for failure would just result in people reloading and complaining about it. If you make items undroppable then those who think violence should always be an option will be unsatisfied.



It is a skill that doesn't lend itself well to cRPG play.



Regards

[The Fred]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Fred I'm gonna file your reply under my highly illogical posts folder and leave it at that. The day anyone else buys into this crackpot theory that making quality items pickpocketable discourages rogues if anything, as you put it, is the day my butt turns green.

Ark just because thats an option doesnt mean you should. How could a rogue possibly "steal" an item from a living character who is being vigialante but somehow fail to locate it off their dead body? Its preposterous

I agree with your second point but perhaps I need to explain better why what I said is as illogical as recommending that fighter planes put more armour on the parts that weren't damaged when they came back from skirmishes (i.e. it might sound illogical, but it's actually *very* logical. Also I just wanted to use that analogy).

It's not the making valuable items pick-pocketable which is discouraging rogue use, it's the fact that I can get those items AND some XP and possibly more items by just killing the NPCs. So, as Ark said, I have a choice:
1) Be a rogue, use pick-pocket, and get a reward.
2) Not be a rogue, no use pick-pocket, kill some dudes, and get a bigger reward.
Which will I do?

EDIT: I think this has already been explained well enough by people other than me, but whatever.

One possible solution might be to make the NPC in question a quest-giver or bounty-offering sort of character. Kill them, and you can no longer cash in all those cranium rat tails you have stinking up your backpack. However this is still akin to giving only one try at the pick-pocket since, while killing the NPCs might be an outcome I'm happy with, if it isn't, I can still just re-load and try again if I fail the theft. There is indeed probably nothing you can do about this, though, so it might just be best to settle for something which is, at least, better than the current system (though that's not hard I know).

Modifié par The Fred, 15 janvier 2011 - 05:50 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

I'm just going to quote one person since you're both barking up the same tree:

EE, what you're missing is that when you can just stab people for that
loot then what good does it do a rogue to pick up sleight of hand? It's a
complete waste of skill points. You're giving a player these options:

- Kill people and gain loot and XP
- spend points in sleight of hand for a chance to gain that same loot but not the XP

So
with your system the purpose of sleight of hand becomes to reduce your
XP gain and nothing else, unless the only way to make those NPCs
killable is to first make them hostile with a failed PP, but then it
becomes better to have only one rank in the skill and to minimize your
chances of success by stacking armor check penalty etc.

Why
would I ever invest in the skill under those circumstances? The only way
I can see that could make any sense is if the pick pocketable creatures
are like 15 levels higher than you and will obliterate your party with
99% certainty, but that's hardly the case when picking random commoners'
pockets and you didn't imply anything of the sort either.

Well lets see just off the top of my head:

• You are in a city of foreigners that are borderline hostile to you (think of the saughan city in BG2) where pissing off one group will bring the whole thing down about your heads so fighting is not an option
• You want to actually use that item to win that difficult battle
• Believe it or not not everyone plays the game like a sociopath. Stealing from some rich but harmless snobs might be more palatable than taking -30 to their alignment.
• You want to advance yourself more quickly (robbing a merchant with a +1 mace you cant afford yet, who if you fail and have to kill, will not be able to sell the rest of his magic items)
• You are on a thiefing mission (such as in Islander) where your mission is dependant on stealing items, being caught not an option
• All of SOZ was based on skilled options to evade, spot, talk down enemies. Did everyone say oh all of those skills DISCOURAGE me from using them because I can just make a super powerful melee party instead? No
• Did nobody ever use pick pocketing in BG1,BG2 which this entire system I propose based on, saying oh I can just make a super party and kill everyone instead? Again, No.

If you judge by you two, who I am fairly certain aren't satisfied with any solution ever invented, of course there is no point. But there are top selling games and expansions, and the entire D&D system itself that disagree.

According to the two of you no skill should exist except combat because if you cant out talk, out stealth, or out-any-skill  someone you can just kill them to compensate. That's what you have both said and I think it contributes nothing if thats your stance on things.

[nicethugbert]

NEAT! This is spot on Truth, EE!

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Well lets see just off the top of my head:

• You are in a city of foreigners that are borderline hostile to you (think of the saughan city in BG2) where pissing off one group will bring the whole thing down about your heads so fighting is not an option
• You want to actually use that item to win that difficult battle
• Believe it or not not everyone plays the game like a sociopath. Stealing from some rich but harmless snobs might be more palatable than taking -30 to their alignment.
• You want to advance yourself more quickly (robbing a merchant with a +1 mace you cant afford yet, who if you fail and have to kill, will not be able to sell the rest of his magic items)
• You are on a thiefing mission (such as in Islander) where your mission is dependant on stealing items, being caught not an option
• All of SOZ was based on skilled options to evade, spot, talk down enemies. Did everyone say oh all of those skills DISCOURAGE me from using them because I can just make a super powerful melee party instead? No
• Did nobody ever use pick pocketing in BG1,BG2 which this entire system I propose based on, saying oh I can just make a super party and kill everyone instead? Again, No.

If you judge by you two, who I am fairly certain aren't satisfied with any solution ever invented, of course there is no point. But there are top selling games and expansions, and the entire D&D system itself that disagree.

According to the two of you no skill should exist except combat because if you cant out talk, out stealth, or out-any-skill  someone you can just kill them to compensate. That's what you have both said and I think it contributes nothing if thats your stance on things.

[nicethugbert]

XP gain or loss can happen when pickpocking succeeds or fails, accordingly.

Hmm, what if you are in a Chaotic area.  Maybe success and rewards do not always correspond?

Modifié par nicethugbert, 15 janvier 2011 - 06:51 .

[Arkalezth]

I'll "bark" some more.

I don't think BG saga and D&D success was entirely based on their pickpocket system.

Some of your points make sense, but others not that much.

1) It depends. I was able to kill that entire city in BG2, so it depends on the difficulty. If it's very hard, it's a valid point.

3) I don't like to play the game like a sociopath. But in your example, a strong sociopath will be better than a skilled Rogue.

5) Is a specific quest, we're talking about general use. So I don't count this one.

6) No, they encourage to use them, because the end result is different. They give you options. And talking to enemies makes combat easier in SoZ, Survival lets you move faster, almost every skill reveal hidden items or give extra XP, etc.

7) Yes, I used it. But I didn't say it was perfect or that changes could been made.

[Arkalezth]

And, what do you have against use in conversation? If you try to rob someone and get caught, that someone will be suspicious of you, so you may not have another opportunity.

Again, most of the time, other skills, like Diplomacy, can only be used once, why not steal too? I have yet to see a module where I can use Diplomacy, fail, and use Diplomacy again from a different approach.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Arkalezth wrote...

6) No, they encourage to use them, because the end result is different.
They give you options. And talking to enemies makes combat easier in
SoZ, Survival lets you move faster, almost every skill reveal hidden
items or give extra XP, etc.

Move faster? As in to run from combat. Just like hide/move silently lets you avoid the combat altogether which would not net you the xp for the battle, which is exactly, in ever sense, how using pick pocket works. In fact pick pocket works better because you can actually gain something from the fight unlike fleeing.

And talking to enemies makes combat easier in
SoZ

Kind of like how pickpocketing a nice item makes a combat easier if you choose to kill them after.

Not seeing a lot of traction in your points. But granted, I don't see a lot of logic to anyone who says "such and such cant be done right" and is offended by any attempt whatsoever. I like when people do things with their modules, but thats just me.

If I wanted to make a point 8, not that I have to because those ones stand alone, but did it ever occur to you that the player gets tired of nothing but combats end to end (again, not unlike how in SoZ you will eventually use skills toa void combat because it gets tedious and keeps you from your desired goals).

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 15 janvier 2011 - 07:26 .

[manageri]

1, 2 and 4 are all basically "succeed or reload", as in no more chances after one fail. If you're fine with that then I'm not sure why you dislike my one try, no punishment suggestion so much, the only big difference is that mine doesn't make the player reload and always makes sleight of hand worth investing in.

Believe it or not not everyone plays the game like a sociopath. Stealing from some rich but harmless snobs might be more palatable than taking -30 to their alignment.

That's a fair point, stealing from people and then running if they spot you is less evil than stabbing them. It still leaves the skill completely useless for rogues that don't mind stabbing people though.

Can't comment on number 5 as I didn't do that quest.

All of SOZ was based on skilled options to evade, spot, talk down enemies. Did everyone say oh all of those skills DISCOURAGE me from using them because I can just make a super powerful melee party instead? No

If you evade all random encounters in SoZ you do in fact miss out on tons of XP, which makes using those skills work against you. People still use them because the SoZ encounter system is ridicilous both in the quantity of encounters and how it makes monsters that the wizard's familiar could solo still attack you.

Did nobody ever use pick pocketing in BG1,BG2 which this entire system I propose based on, saying oh I can just make a super party and kill everyone instead? Again, No.

But BG didn't JUST let you kill people and grab their loot, you had reputation penalties which had disasterous effects on shop prices IIRC (been a long time, fuzzy on all the details). I could never be bothered with PP in those games precisely because the crappy rewards were so not worth the penalties if I got caught, and smashing the PP button and then reloading every time I fail was incredibly boring and kinda felt like cheating. What I mean by that is if you always try again on the same NPC after reloading then what's the difference between that and automatic success? The fact that you spent x minutes staring at a loading screen? If you instead decide you don't try again after reloading then you just implemented a limited tries system.

So once again we find ourselves stuck between limited tries, or something that reduces to automatic success. Since I don't see any point whatsoever in skill checks that you can't fail, I don't see much choise but to go for limited tries. If you don't share that sentiment then the BG system could well be perfect for you, it's all about what your goals are.

According to the two of you no skill should exist except combat because
if you cant out talk, out stealth, or out-any-skill  someone you can
just kill them to compensate. That's what you have both said and I think
it contributes nothing if thats your stance on things.

I've said no such thing, in fact I just said:
"The only way I can see that could make any sense is if the pick pocketable creatures are like 15 levels higher than you and will obliterate your party with 99% certainty"

How is that not a skill check getting you something that combat can not? I can give you another example: There's an iron golem guarding some pie, and the only way to get past it is to have your rogue use stealth. If you try to fight you get turned into a doormat since your party's only level 3 at the time, and the pie obviously wont wait for you to level up.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Manageri I am going to refuse to do anything about loading the game. It's not my role, and I won't spend time thinking about it. However....

I did notice a reason why in my (BG2's) proposed system, this is irelevant. BG2 uses a static skill check, like I always do (not a DC roll). Therefore if you go try and steal and fail, you can reload as many times as you want. You still won't suceed because you aren't a high enough skill yet.

What I mean by that is if you always try again on the same NPC after
reloading then what's the difference between that and automatic success?

This was as I said, not the case in BG. Your memory is too fuzzy on this subject, because spamming reload got you nothing.

Erego you can have infinity tries at failure if you like, and you can reload all you want.

The actual powerful items should be at the very limits of pick pocket ability to keep you from cleaning up at mid level. For example, any actual armor/weapons magic jewellery will be at just under the highest conceivable pick pocket skill, plus they will need a potion of master thievery (limited availability) in game to give you that extra boost to scoop something. This gives you a chance to steal (if you are industrious and explore well) something good at mid levels if you have the potion, and failing that, you get something at near max level when it is more reasonable for your level, without the potion.

Reward for persistence, exploration, and knowing your marks. And reload doesnt matter.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 15 janvier 2011 - 07:33 .

[kamal_]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...
I did notice a reason why in my (BG2's) proposed system, this is irelevant. BG2 uses a static skill check, like I always do (not a DC roll). Therefore if you go try and steal and fail, you can reload as many times as you want. You still won't suceed because you aren't a high enough skill yet..

Not true. They are a dc, it is always possible to fail.
See the note on Rielev for instance.
http://www.gamebansh...cketeditems.php

Modifié par kamal_, 15 janvier 2011 - 07:40 .

[The Fred]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

[*]You are in a city of foreigners that are borderline hostile to you (think of the saughan city in BG2) where pissing off one group will bring the whole thing down about your heads so fighting is not an option

[*]You want to actually use that item to win that difficult battle

As I said in my post, if the battle is sufficiently difficult, it basically becomes a succeed-or-reload situation. However, you would probably have to make it ridiculously difficult or, as you said, make the whole town go hostile, because if I min/max my character at the expense of pick-pocket, he's going to be powerful.

[*]You want to advance yourself more quickly (robbing a merchant with a +1 mace you cant afford yet, who if you fail and have to kill, will not be able to sell the rest of his magic items)


[*]You are on a thiefing mission (such as in Islander) where your mission is dependant on stealing items, being caught not an option.

Also as I said, a situation like the first one would probably work. The second is a good idea too. Again, though, it becomes another success-or-reload sort of situation. I gather you're fine with these, in which case these ideas are also fine, just be aware that that's basically what they boil down to.

According to the two of you no skill should exist except combat because if you cant out talk, out stealth, or out-any-skill  someone you can just kill them to compensate. That's what you have both said and I think it contributes nothing if thats your stance on things.

This is only the case if the rewards are point-blank better, which is the issue I was having with your previous suggestion. If it's just a case of pick-pocket some guys, get some gold vs kill some guys, get some gold AND XP, it's obvious which is the best option. I did actually state in my previous post that you could use ideas like the ones you suggested to make the situation a lot better and I'm happy to say I think some of these could work. However, I still think that plain pick-pocketing in general does not work.

EDIT: Incidentally, I never pick-pocketed in BG for similar reasons.

Another option would be to use things like alignment - pick-pocketing gives you a chaotic point or two, but murdering people gives you some evil points. I don't think though that a fight which ensues from pick-pocketing ought necessarily to give you evil points, which is why I suggested a conversation. If you can talk your way out, surrender to the guards, give back what you stole or whatever, that's fine. If you fail to do that, maybe they attack you, but that's also fine. Of course, you could just attack them - this is what would earn you evil points I guess. If there was a situation like that in, I wouldn't chose the most profitable action by default unless playing an evil character.

Static checks vs rolls, and reloading, are entirely different topics (which could be interesting in their own right, but are kind of separate).

Modifié par The Fred, 15 janvier 2011 - 07:56 .

[manageri]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Manageri I am going to refuse to do anything about loading the game. It's not my role, and I won't spend time thinking about it.

Pretending the reload button doesn't exist won't solve your problems, it makes them worse. If you can't reload, and have the ludicrous BG style penalties of everyone going hostile and getting reputation hits which far outweigh whatever crappy gold you can get via PP then there's no point in PPing anyone ever until your skill is so high that you cannot fail (which you can never be sure of in NWN2 thanks to 3.5 rules and the opposing spot check). The bare minimum requirement of a functional PP system is that the skill is worth using, with no reloads the BG system does not even accomplish that.

The actual powerful items should be at the very limits of pick pocket ability to keep you from cleaning up at mid level. For example, any actual armor/weapons magic jewellery will be at just under the highest conceivable pick pocket skill, plus they will need a potion of master thievery (limited availability) in game to give you that extra boost to scoop something. This gives you a chance to steal (if you are industrious and explore well) something good at mid levels if you have the potion, and failing that, you get something at near max level when it is more reasonable for your level, without the potion.

Reward for persistence, exploration, and knowing your marks. And reload doesnt matter.

That all sounds fine, and you can do it without NPCs going hostile and all that other BG crap.