177 réponses à ce sujet

[Arkalezth]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Move faster? As in to run from combat. Just like hide/move silently lets you avoid the combat altogether which would not net you the xp for the battle, which is exactly, in ever sense, how using pick pocket works. In fact pick pocket works better because you can actually gain something from the fight unlike fleeing.

Fast movement doesn't mean running from combat. I often cast Haste simply because I like to move faster, even in a town, with no combat involved.
Hide/MS let you choose what you do. You want to fight? You can. You don't want? You hide. You fail? You can try to run away. But it'll be easier than running away from an entire hostile town.

And talking to enemies makes combat easier in
SoZ

Why don't you quote everything? It was a response to:

All of SOZ was based on skilled options to evade, spot, talk down enemies. Did everyone say oh all of those skills DISCOURAGE me from using them because I can just make a super powerful melee party instead? No

Bluff and Intimidate don't discourage you from anything. You can fight the same enemies with or without them, but if you use them, fights will be a bit easier.

Kind of like how pickpocketing a nice item makes a combat easier if you choose to kill them after.

Not seeing a lot of traction in your points. But granted, I don't see a lot of logic to anyone who says "such and such cant be done right" and is offended by any attempt whatsoever. I like when people do things with their modules, but thats just me.

If I wanted to make a point 8, not that I have to because those ones stand alone, but did it ever occur to you that the player gets tired of nothing but combats end to end (again, not unlike how in SoZ you will eventually use skills toa void combat because it gets tedious and keeps you from your desired goals).

I'm not offended, and if you read this thread, you'll see I made some attemps too. IMO, it's you who's saying: BG2 system or nothing. I'm open to suggestions, I just don't like yours.

And who talked about combat here?

I said: succed=item, fail=no item.

You said: succed=item, fail=combat.

Honestly, I'm tired of this. To put it simple, I agree with some of your points, but I don't like the entire hostile town system, or hostile NPCs in general. I think Manageri, TheFred and me already explained why we don't like that. Again, YMMV. I don't want to be repeating the same thing over and over.

Edit: Can't we add some boobs? If you succeed in pickpocketing, you see some boobs. But there's no other way to see them. Everyone pickpockets. Solved.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 15 janvier 2011 - 10:21 .

[nicethugbert]

I hope Lugaid continues to check this thread even though it has devolved into a worthless label and comparison fest. 

XP gain or loss can happen when pick pocketing succeeds or fails, accordingly.  Or, just an xp loss on fail and gp or item on success.  The XP loss could depend on the expected gain had the PP attempt succeeded.

You could drop the no-can-pp timers, and instead put timers on the XP penalties to make them cumulative so that if he fails PP again before the old penalty wears off he gets the old penalty again plus the new penalty, or three penalties, or 1000 penalties, depending on the length of the timers.  A timer on success can also be used so that the rogue can PP right away only to get a cumulative penalty.

This can be combined with diplomacy, intimidate, and bluff for whatever purpose and those can have XP also and involve the rest of the party and other NPCs.

Other penalties can apply too, such as skill and ability reductions, Rogue Logbow Ambushes from behind a carpet of cr... I mean, traps!  Also, Pocket Bear Traps, NEAT!  Rabid Pocket Puggles!  Vampire Butterfly Swarms!  Or. just plain old defense by skunk.  Curse of the Troglydyte!  Curses!  Diseases!  Poison!  Boobies!  Oh my!

Critical Success and Failure can also be added to the system.

The whole event can play out on a report window such as the cross road keep progress report window you could get from Kana.

Hmm, what if you are in a Chaotic area.  Maybe success and rewards do not always correspond?

Many things are possible when worthless labels and concerns are dispensed with.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 16 janvier 2011 - 12:21 .

[Arkalezth]

Yeah, you're right. I think I've said everything I wanted to say about the previous discussion, so let's get back to the original question.

About this:

involve the rest of the party and other NPCs.

You can do this in Path of Evil. The PC distracts the merchant, and a Rogue companion steals. Teamwork would be a nice addition in any party based module, and not only for pickpocket. However, Lugaid's first module was mostly solo, so maybe this one too. He should confirm that before. It can be nice for other modules, though.

XP gain/loss is a good solution too. Some modules give XP for successful skill checks, so it could be implemented. Or, if you get caught (once or several times), you go to jail, losing XP or something.

I still don't like timers. I find them boring, whatever the penalty is.

BTW, I thought about pocket traps originally, but I found it odd, so I didn't mention it, but I guess it's an option, in some NPCs at least. I don't think everyone wears traps in their pockets.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

I'm still paying attention.

Let's summarize, to see if we can make sense of all this. It seems the ideas reflect three basic understandings of what pickpocketing in particular, and a cRPG in general, should be about.

1. It's all about roleplaying, using the skills to play out a character within an interesting story. So the best approach is to use sleight of hand checks in conjunction with other skills, preferably in a conversation or a heavily-scripted system that can put everything into context.

2. It's all about strategy, using your character skills to get as much loot and xp as possible, or simply to win. So balance is key, as is keeping some things out of reach of all but the most resourceful players.

3. It's all a big Easter Egg hunt, you run around and click on things, and exciting things happen, like getting your hand stuck in a bear trap. Or, as a great philosopher once said, "whatever it is, it got to be funky."



I started the thread because I realized that the default system was unusable (it breaks factions), but scripting a new one could be very simple, just a quick penalty applied to the PC on fail.

My script right now deals out a temporary hit to sleight and charisma, boosts the NPC's spot, lowers a reputation variable I use in merchant scripts, and deals a little bit of damage to the PC. Before this though, the script automatically does a save throw using the PC's intimidate, diplomacy, or bluff, whatever's higher, with accompanying voice chats emitted by the PC or NPC.

It's not good for much more than messing around between quests, but it does give rogues a chance to act like rogues and raise a bit of petty cash.

Of course, eventually someone's gonna have to do a rogue/bard module that has a fully fleshed out system, and a plot that makes good use of it.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

@Arkalezth: Yeah, it's a sequel to LotD, mostly solo, mostly low-magic, mostly low-gold (you have to actually earn money through trade or hunting, very few opportunities for looting).

[Arkalezth]

Good to know. I'm not a fan of timers, but your system sounds cool with that saving throw and the reputation. So, if you have success in the bluff/whatever check, you avoid the penalty entirely? And how large is the penalty to sleight of hand?

[The Fred]

Lugaid I think your three points actually summed it up pretty well.

The issue I have with checks like pick-pockets is that unlike a combat scenario, success or fail is based on a single check. In combat, you can reload and try again if you fail, perhaps trying different tactics etc, because it's unlikely that you will win just off getting really good combat rolls, in which case you were probably fairly close or just unlucky the first time. Pick-pocketing, however, is just a single click and a single roll. It's not particularly fulfilling if you succeed, and especially disappointing if you fail. I kind of agree with Eguintir that reloading isn't the builder's problem, but not entirely - as I said before, it's something that a builder should be aware of at the very least when building. I'm not saying you have to redo the whole game system, but as manegeri said, pretending it doesn't exist or saying "it's not my problem" doesn't make it go away. Of course, if you are using static checks, it's another thing entirely, but as I said previously, that could make a whole discussion in its own right.

I think your second point hits the nail on the head pretty well too - it's all about balance. Just like most things, I guess. If you make it so that the "rogue option" is roughly equal in reward to the combat option and so forth, players are more free to chose the one which suits their character best or which they enjoy the most. I also like down-the-line and/or complex outcomes - again using BG as an example, siding with the hunter guy in the woods would unlock a quest in the city, whereas siding with the druids would cause the previous guy's brother to attack you later instead. Here, unless you had played the game before and/or read a walkthrough, you didn't know what the various rewards would be (because reloading to find out wasn't sufficient unless you wanted to play on a whole chapter each time), and even when you do, it's quite hard to say which is best because there are quite a lot of elements.

However you dress it up, most of RP games boil down to a series of choices and checks and things. Whatever system you use, you need to ensure that those underlying things are complex or interesting enough that anyone who can see through the storytelling veneer doesn't find himself pressured into a specific course of action, if that makes sense.

[M. Rieder]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...

@Arkalezth: Yeah, it's a sequel to LotD, mostly solo, mostly low-magic, mostly low-gold (you have to actually earn money through trade or hunting, very few opportunities for looting).

Sequel!Sequel!Sequel!Sequel!  Sorry for the derail, but a sequel to LotD is very exciting!

[Eguintir Eligard]

Thats what was lost with those pointing out every flaw in each system but not providing one of their own; I think those of us proposing systems are ones who actually plan to implement them. Theres no viability to planning some ridiculously complex system, which is why I like the BG2 system. Its doable, adds a dimension, and since we aren't talking about THIEF 2 here, its about getting them to function reasonably, without undue effort that would derail the module being made.

[nicethugbert]

I likes me sum Easter Egg Strateegery Roleplaying!  FTW!  NEAT!  Presidential!

It would help Sleight of Hand to remain interesting if there are multiple uses for the skill such as OM and convo use or planting evidence or pocket bear traps or whoopie cushions or pokemons.  For instance, the rogue could dump the loot in a passerby's pocket and frame them for the failed sleight of hand.  Now they run the risk of getting caught twice in a row.  That is definitely worth a logbow ambush.  Or they could get paid to plant stuff. 

Maybe the rogue passes a listen check where he learns that someone is keeping something close to their vest.

Varying the value of the rewards helps keep it from being monotone.  So, the player doesn't get the impression that it is only good for a few GP and that's it and that a few points is all the investment that it merits.  Then the player uses it more often to fish for opportunities instead of just a few gp.

The only way to compare combat to pick pocketing is on a roll by roll basis, not an entire battle versus one roll.  In which case, you do get multiple rolls in combat so you should get multiple rolls in skill checks if you want skill checks to be like combat.  You also get critical hits and misses in combat, plus a variety of effects.  But, I don't need to compare everything to combat in order to make it interesting.  I find the comparison more limiting than enlightening.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 16 janvier 2011 - 03:00 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

I plan to implement my system as described. Due to the fact that I give xp for disable traps and open locks, it is feasible to add xp for pick pockets. It's also easy to figure out how much because you go by challenge rating for combat xp and can go by DC for the pick pocket. The exp should be comparable whether you fight or steal. Even if it varies by as much as a fraction etc, its still very legitimate reason to avoid a fight when a PP is possible.

On the other side of the coin though, the free item is it's own reward often. And having xp for  pick pockets can serve as greatly unbalancing (how much could your estimate of the players level be off by if they dont pick pocket?) So now things get complex again. I think having good items on characters you cant easily or feasible kill is the best way to handle pick pocket, just like creating magic items in a specific way is the best way to balance 2 handed weapons.

A shop keeper who's inventory is to valuable to kill, but has a nice item to steal you won't otherwise get, or have to pay big for. A guard captain who has a rad ring but if he catches you the town guard will will decimate you in huge numbers. And if you built it in a consistent way the player will figure out not to waste time on nameless commoners for a few gold and instead always attempt on a named NPC or shopkeeper selling quality magic items.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 16 janvier 2011 - 03:12 .

[Arkalezth]

I think we all proposed different systems, and even if that weren't the case, why would I need to propose a new system just to give an opinion about other? And "copy BG" isn't the epitome of originality either. I pointed out which ones I liked, and which not. Your system was the latter for me, sorry.

We don't have all to agree on everything. What you like isn't necessarily what me or others like. I'm not interested in going on with the discussion, you suggested a system, it's noted. Now, do you have anything to say that haven't been already said over and over in the last two pages (and I include myself there)?

Edit: I was late. This was a response to your previous comment.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 16 janvier 2011 - 03:10 .

[nicethugbert]

Problems with XP gain on sleight of hand success do not imply problems with XP loss on sleight of hand failure.



Also, you can hide plot hooks, clues, or distractions, maybe worthless items that imply a quest or contact, on commoners. Maybe a spot or listen check to point out the potentially interesting commoner.

[The Fred]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...
Thats what was lost with those pointing out every flaw in each system but not providing one of their own; I think those of us proposing systems are ones who actually plan to implement them. Theres no viability to planning some ridiculously complex system, which is why I like the BG2 system. Its doable, adds a dimension, and since we aren't talking about THIEF 2 here, its about getting them to function reasonably, without undue effort that would derail the module being made.

I'll admit that pointing out flaws rather than solutions is somewhat negative, but those flaws still exist and it's better to be aware of them than not. Personally, I definitely intend to do something with pick-pocket, too, I just haven't decided quite what. Still, I think you're right in saying that making something passable for the time put in is probably the best solution unless you're making a very rogue-dedicated mod or something.

I'm thinking of going with my own conversation confrontation idea still - I mean, this will probably still outcome in a fight or arrest rather like it did in BG, but there might be ways to talk yourself out etc. Finding other uses for pick-pocket like those NTB was suggesting is probably going to be more important, though, since I don't think a single pick-pocket roll which people can quicksave before making is going to be that exciting, whatever you do to it.

[Eguintir Eligard]

If you plan to actually do this complex systems then you can critique and rebut everything posted her with good reason. However based on my experience I have the most theif specific quests/action of any module I have played so far, and I still do not see the need to make this one skill more work than it should be. I'm just going along with the OPs point of hey how can we give this skill due attention, within the informal guildelines that it should not become it's own project in a game that is general (not rogue specific) in nature. I'll probably take an afternoon to make and test a script that makes armed people attack when you rob them, and commoners/weaklings go hostile, but run away when you fail, and they all reset themself after a reasonable time. From then on I will just build pickpocketing strategically, placing good items in spots that are likely to be "checked" as I said above. Thats a fair amount of effort to me, and commeasurate with the effort I put into other skills, like making a diplomacy check possible in certain conversations.

In addition to the strategic methods above, I will have NPCs that are acessible far sooner than their challenge rating becomes fair. That means you can steal a good item or two off them before your time, long before fighting is an option, enjoy a magic item for a longer period.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 16 janvier 2011 - 02:53 .

[The Fred]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...
If you plan to actually do this complex systems then you can critique and rebut everything posted her with good reason.

Why should someone need to make something awesome to be able to say that something else isn't? That restricts critics to a small caste of builders. I can say I don't like a food without being able to cook, for example.

Regardless, as I said, there's a balance between input and payoff here. If you can make all the commoners lose their hostility after a while and so forth then that's probably all you need to do for a simple system like this - after all, I don't need to reload if I can just flee and come back later, they probably take about as long on slow PCs.

Even if a system is good, though, it doesn't mean it's without cons to go with its pros, that's all.

Modifié par The Fred, 16 janvier 2011 - 02:55 .

[Arkalezth]

What Fred said. I also didn't like enemies spamming immunity in Mass Effect. It's boring. Should I make a game just to criticize it?

I'm not a builder, so don't expect me to make a module or a script or whatever anytime soon. I'm a player, and when I play a game, there are things I like and things I don't. Don't expect me to shut up if I want to express an opinion.

[kamal_]

Someone complained about my campaign because you can kill a child in it. Which is true, except the child is trying to run away from you (the commoner faction ai does this automatically). The player let their avatar kill the child.



When a failed pickpocket makes someone go hostile, you attack by default (even if they are running away). What you would want to do is use a custom AI so they run away, but do not become hostile. There is an AI that does this, I've seen it demoed on the IRC channel.

[PJ156]

Arkalezth wrote...
I'm not a builder, so don't expect me to make a module or a script or whatever anytime soon. I'm a player, and when I play a game, there are things I like and things I don't. Don't expect me to shut up if I want to express an opinion.

On the contrary, for me your opinion on all aspects of playing is not only valid but welcome. Too few players come here and make thier feelings known IMO. I think in our quest to create the fancy things that fill our minds we can lose sight of the fact that players might not want these things. Yes we mod to suit ourselves, creating the game that we would like to play but personally I mod for downloads and votes and the slim chance that two people sitting over a beer or a game in some far of place might say I realy enjoy this mans work.

I can dream .

I don't see how you can play with the hostile faction without considering how the companions reat to it as Kamal said. It only takes a few second for an NPC to drop a market seller or key merchant with a bow. People would not run away from a known pickpocket they would just hold thier pockets or purses until they forgot about it for a while. Back to a cooldown period ...

Brings to mind the sign in Leicester Square London. In a known area for pickpocking the police put up a neon sign saying pickpockets operate in this area. Instead of dropping the rate of stolen items it increased three fold. That's because every person that saw that sign involuntarily checked thier wallet/purse. Clearly indicating to any pickpocked where their most valued items were. The argument being perhaps the pickpocket might find things easier after a fail as everybody checks thier purse when he/she approches.

Heh Heh - how to script that one.

PJ

Modifié par PJ156, 16 janvier 2011 - 04:10 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

You know I have DNO telling me I'm the negative one but its pretty obvious to me Ark, that you would rather write some indignant post in reply before taking the time to read what is actually written, and just assume I have made an insult or something of that nature.





If you are not planning to make the system yourself your input becomes less useful because you are tending to propose things that take a unreasonable amount of work. Input from other builders tends to be grounded in "possibility" and gets much closer to an actual viable. I don't care if you opine on the subject or not if you aren't a builder. I don't need a reminder of your willingness to do so its pretty clear.



So Fred when I hear you are going to build, of course I am going to pay more attention to your plan than before, because I at least know it won't be pie in the sky idealism.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Oh and to be clear, I never said not to formulate idea. My issue was with people who ONLY have complaints with every plan there, but not one of their own. So when you have issues with every plan and have no idea how much work it is to cover the issues AND have no plan of your own to provide ya it becomes less helpful.

[Arkalezth]

Thanks, PJ.

@EE: I understand that the amount of work needed can be too much, I already said that in my first post in this thread. My suggestions (here or in other threads) assume that they're viable, of course feel free to not use them if that's not the case. As a non-builder, sometimes I can't make an estimation on how much time or work some things can require.

What I don't agree is that players' opinions are less useful. Players are the ones who play the modules after all, so in certain aspects our opinion can be actually more useful than the opinion of someone who builds but doesn't play a lot. Players can tell if something is boring, tedious, bad gameplay-wise, etc. Every opinion is useful on its own IMO. I didn't see a "Builders only" sign in the original request.

And I just didn't like YOUR system. I liked others (NTB's for example, or some things about Lugaid's), and I gave some myself, possible to do or not, but that's another story.

For me it's settled, let's not follow with this until a moderator closes the thread. Feel free to not take into account to my opinions if they require lots of work, I'll just keep giving them when I consider it necessary.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 16 janvier 2011 - 04:55 .

[manageri]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Oh and to be clear, I never said not to formulate idea. My issue was with people who ONLY have complaints with every plan there, but not one of their own. So when you have issues with every plan and have no idea how much work it is to cover the issues AND have no plan of your own to provide ya it becomes less helpful.

So when your doctor tells you that he's gonna try to cure your cancer by repeatedly smashing your face with a shovel, you're not gonna object because you have no idea how to cure it yourself?

Criticizing bad gameplay ideas can be done just as well by players as builders, and demanding people propose an idea of their own before they can point out issues with yours is illogical.

[nicethugbert]

Your party rolls into town, all bad and nation wide. The ranger spots a commoner who just seems somehow interesting. Is that a glint of shiny we see? The rogue doesn't see anything but goes over to investigate at the behest of the party. Rummaging through her robes he finds no shinny, but he does find honey, and so does the local rogue's guild informant who goes to tell boss that his little sister just got ninja groped, for free.

Is that a logbow in the alley?? BANG! You been hit!

You wake up to find your logbow hole has closed while you napped. A teddy bear? Where did this come from and why is my gold pouch lighter??

False positives and critical failures, use them please.

Hmm, there is a rumor that Isabella the Homeless is actually a person of interest.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 16 janvier 2011 - 07:55 .

[nicethugbert]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Oh and to be clear, I never said not to formulate idea. My issue was with people who ONLY have complaints with every plan there, but not one of their own. So when you have issues with every plan and have no idea how much work it is to cover the issues AND have no plan of your own to provide ya it becomes less helpful.

TRUTH!  The best thing to do is just ignore those people, focus on the solutions, and keep pumping out the ideas.