177 réponses à ce sujet

[Eguintir Eligard]

Hows this for a critical failure scenario:



Your dashing male rogue, reminiscent of Kevin Sorbo, goes to make his attempt at a pickety pick pocket on a gallant looking you noble named Sire Anthony. A critical fail and a botched attempt, leaves your rogue grasping the wrong coin purse and leaves Sire Anthony at the conclusion of his search for a meaningful relationship.

[nicethugbert]

He's not one of Marquise De Sade's friends is he? That's scary if you're not into that.  But, if you are then it's a "romance" hook.  Who would have predicted that?  You could always bluff interest, even the prim and proper chaste kind, just to get closer to his friend pockets.

You could have a journal entry called Rumor Mill to keep tabs of all the things your party has heard wafting through the air? Then, when you follow up on the rumor it is deleted from the Rumor Mill journal entry?

Modifié par nicethugbert, 16 janvier 2011 - 08:09 .

[PJ156]

 Not sure how you would script that either.

It's the certainly the seed for a fun piece of roleplaying. Your sire could equally be an ageing madam who went to the market for a chicken and got a goose instead. Either could spend the rest of the mod following the PC round.

[nicethugbert]

Maybe Sire Anthony's wife is a hag and he's going to use you to escape from her or appease her?

[The Fred]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...
If you are not planning to make the system yourself your input becomes less useful because you are tending to propose things that take a unreasonable amount of work. Input from other builders tends to be grounded in "possibility" and gets much closer to an actual viable.

Eguintir, I totally see what you're trying to say, but players can still say when they dislike a system or what system they'd prefer even if it's unrealistic to expect a builder to follow their advice or even be able to. Just remember that it's these players who will be playing your game in the end, commenting on it and voting on it.

Eguintir Eligard wrote...
So Fred when I hear you are going to build, of course I am going to pay more attention to your plan than before, because I at least know it won't be pie in the sky idealism.

And just to set the record straight, most of my best plans ARE "pie in the sky idealism". Being a builder, I know that very little is truly impossible, only possibly very difficult. Maybe this is why I never get anything actually finished, but personally I get as much a sense of satisfaction from doing something "impossible" as I do with anything else. I guess that's a topic for another thread, though...

If you ask me it's best to start from what would be the ideal system anyway, and then work back from there making it more feasible - saying "What would I like to do most? And how can I easily get as close as possible to that?" rather than "What *can* I do?" or even "What's the simplest and easiest thing to do?"

How about other uses for Sleight of Hand, too? Poisoning an important person's drink? Could make use of the Use Poison feat (to prevent critical failure?) or give assassins a bonus etc. Changing the settings on some sort of machine, without anybody noticing? Maybe pilfering quest-specific items, such as pocketing a dagger after you've been captured somehow to use on your ropes later, or stealing the key to your sell from the guard? I know these aren't really solutions to the plain pick-pocket problem, but they'd provide interesting alternative uses of the skill.

[Haplose]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...
Ark just because thats an option doesnt mean you should. How could a rogue possibly "steal" an item from a living character who is being vigialante but somehow fail to locate it off their dead body? Its preposterous

Not really, not for all stuff anyway.
That Heal potion in that fragile bottle might have broken, when the guy was falling over. Not to mention he could have used it already during the fight... The same is true for all potions. Those intricate scriptures on that magic scroll might have been covered by blood, also partially torn.. maybe even a sword went through it... That lightweight magic wand of uberness might have snapped under the weight of the heavy body...

It makes perfect sense for some items to be steal-only.

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...
Yeah, it's a sequel to LotD, mostly solo, mostly low-magic, mostly
low-gold (you have to actually earn money through trade or hunting, very
few opportunities for looting.

Yay! A sequel to LotD! Awesome! I loved almost everything about that module... well except the ending... And now we will get to continue! Hoorayyy!

Anyway, back on topic. I don't really see what's wrong with the clessic setup. You try to steal and are cought? The person you tried to pick-pocket refuses to deal with you and calls for help (maybe you can bribe him/her to stay silent or maybe intimidate him/her enough to shut up.. anyway no more dealing with that person). Townsguard/Militia turn up and place a hefty fine/arrest you (though the latter requires more work) or you can resist and fight them. The fight should probably be very tough - impossible at lower levels, at higher levels probably easier. However if you do resort to violence, no lawfull citizens will deal with you anymore. So you won't get quests, you won't be able to buy stuff from most merchants, etc. People will run from you, lock the doors and close window blinds when you pass near, etc... You can maybe avoid encountering the guards, but from this point onward they will be on a lookout for you.

Of course this only works well in towns. Hamlets would have to make do with bribe/intimidate or... torches and pitchforks approach. Sure, you can slaughter an entire village if you like, but that means no more quests there, no more trade, services, an alignment hit.. and I guess news of this will spread eventually. So a reputation system of some sort - both in an area and global - would be very nice (with impact on merchant prices, lawfull people rejecting to deal with you and so on).

[Arkalezth]

nicethugbert wrote...

TRUTH!  The best thing to do is just ignore those people, focus on the solutions, and keep pumping out the ideas.

Yeah, that's the best you can do. Ignore players. The key to success for a game.

Anyway, back to topic:

The Fred wrote...

How about other uses for Sleight of Hand,
too? Poisoning an important person's drink? Could make use of the Use
Poison feat (to prevent critical failure?) or give assassins a bonus
etc. Changing the settings on some sort of machine, without anybody
noticing? Maybe pilfering quest-specific items, such as pocketing a
dagger after you've been captured somehow to use on your ropes later, or
stealing the key to your sell from the guard? I know these aren't
really solutions to the plain pick-pocket problem, but they'd provide
interesting alternative uses of the skill.

I agree that other uses would be cool. Anything that requires dexterity or fast hands. Or even the opposite, for example:

You're an assassin. You kill someone, the guard hears some noises and comes to the crime scene. They find a body with a wound caused by a dagger. You use Sleight of Hand to put the dagger in the pocket of another guy (maybe someone specific who you want to kill as well), incriminating him. The guards find the dagger and put that guy in jail, or he's executed.

I suggested uses for Use Poison a while ago, too. Poisons are pretty lame in the game, so some actual RP use for the ability would be nice. Or simply use it as an automatic success for some quests/skill checks.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 17 janvier 2011 - 09:59 .

[Arkalezth]

Haplose wrote...

Anyway, back on topic. I don't really see what's wrong with the clessic setup. You try to steal and are cought? The person you tried to pick-pocket refuses to deal with you and calls for help (maybe you can bribe him/her to stay silent or maybe intimidate him/her enough to shut up.. anyway no more dealing with that person). Townsguard/Militia turn up and place a hefty fine/arrest you (though the latter requires more work) or you can resist and fight them. The fight should probably be very tough - impossible at lower levels, at higher levels probably easier. However if you do resort to violence, no lawfull citizens will deal with you anymore. So you won't get quests, you won't be able to buy stuff from most merchants, etc. People will run from you, lock the doors and close window blinds when you pass near, etc... You can maybe avoid encountering the guards, but from this point onward they will be on a lookout for you.

Of course this only works well in towns. Hamlets would have to make do with bribe/intimidate or... torches and pitchforks approach. Sure, you can slaughter an entire village if you like, but that means no more quests there, no more trade, services, an alignment hit.. and I guess news of this will spread eventually. So a reputation system of some sort - both in an area and global - would be very nice (with impact on merchant prices, lawfull people rejecting to deal with you and so on).

Now that's a good and balanced solution. I wouldn't like to be unable to buy/seel, but there are several options in your example, you don't get attacked by the whole town at once. You can bribe the person or something, and you can pay the fine or go to jail (or fight).

Of course this means more work than a simple fail=hostiles, but it seems viable.

And I want to repeat the suggestion for a redemption system, maybe doing some quest to regain the right to deal with merchants, etc.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:08 .

[Haplose]

Yeah, redemption sounds very good, even if it means more work again...

[Arkalezth]

Yes, that depends on how much time the builder wants to spend on it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that would require too much work, if you keep it simple. Add a quest (one more or less quest won't make a difference in most modules), and make merchants able to sell stuff again. No need to create a quest for every merchant, simply one quest that benefits the whole town, and you're set.

A more complicated system would be a different thing.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 17 janvier 2011 - 10:36 .

[nicethugbert]

Arkalezth wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

TRUTH!  The best thing to do is just ignore those people, focus on the solutions, and keep pumping out the ideas.

Yeah, that's the best you can do. Ignore players. The key to success for a game.

Anyway, back to topic:

You could have just quoted EE making the offending statement instead of me replying to a totally different statement of his.

[Arkalezth]

Alright. I'll quote everything. I omitted EE's quote just to save space.

nicethugbert wrote...

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Oh and to be clear, I never said not to formulate idea. My issue was with people who ONLY have complaints with every plan there, but not one of their own. So when you have issues with every plan and have no idea how much work it is to cover the issues AND have no plan of your own to provide ya it becomes less helpful.

TRUTH! The best thing to do is just ignore those people, focus on the solutions, and keep pumping out the ideas.

It doesn't sound so totally different to me. You were the one that used the word "ignore". I believe I'm one of these people he's refeering to (even though I made some suggestions). But my statement stays the same, no matter who I'm replying to.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 17 janvier 2011 - 11:36 .

[kevL]

Arkalezth wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Oh and to be clear, I never said not to formulate idea. My issue was with people who ONLY have complaints with every plan there, but not one of their own. So when you have issues with every plan and have no idea how much work it is to cover the issues AND have no plan of your own to provide ya it becomes less helpful.

TRUTH! The best thing to do is just ignore those people, focus on the solutions, and keep pumping out the ideas.

Yeah, that's the best you can do. Ignore players. The key to success for a game.

how far would Einstein have got if he waited for others to tell him whether they like Relativity or not? how many Dostoevsky novels written? Apparently the only reference Albert made in his original paper on SR, was thanking a friend - with whom he went walking one day. Said friend didn't actually contribute anything, but just listened intently to what AE was trying to express - that seemingly focused Einstein's mind so much that it all crystalized ..

that fellow's name was Michele Besso and he remained Albert's friend for 50 yr.


just sayin'

[Arkalezth]

kevL wrote...

how far would Einstein have got if he waited for others to tell him whether they like Relativity or not? how many Dostoevsky novels written? Apparently the only reference Albert made in his original paper on SR, was thanking a friend - with whom he went walking one day. Said friend didn't actually contribute anything, but just listened intently to what AE was trying to express - that seemingly focused Einstein's mind so much that it all crystalized ..

that fellow's name was Michele Besso and he remained Albert's friend for 50 yr.


just sayin'

Wow. Nice story, I agree, and I like Dostoievsky, but come on...I can't believe you're comparing that with a game feature (nothing revolutionary btw) that I find boring...

I'll put a real example: have you played Mass Effect 2? There's a feature that lets you scan planets for minerals. You need those minerals to upgrade your equipment. It's probably the single most boring feature I've seen in a game. Other players said the same. As a result, a lot of people cheats and give themself minerals, to avoid boredom in a game, which main purpose is entertainment. If Bioware listens to players, they'll drop that feature in Mass Effect 3. They listened them when the first game was released, and their second is better in some aspects.

I know this isn't exactly what we're discussing here either, but it shows how players' opinions can be useful. And I'm sure that most of those players aren't builders or Bioware devs.

Can't we end this nonsense and focus on the topic? If EE doesn't want to listen to me when he's building his modules, great, it's his right. Let's get back to the topic.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 17 janvier 2011 - 06:39 .

[manageri]

kevL wrote...

how far would Einstein have got if he waited for others to tell him whether they like Relativity or not?

Just as far since liking it has nothing to do with whether it's accurate. Unlike a scientific fact a feature in a game cannot be "correct" or "incorrect", but it can be disliked and, unlike in science, that's a valid concern when building a product whose purpose is to entertain.

[The Fred]

kevL wrote...
how far would Einstein have got if he waited for others to tell him whether they like Relativity or not?

Einstein was not trying to sell an idea to others. He wasn't interested in download counts. He just thought that this ideas were or at least could be right, and wanted to tell people about them. The flip-side of people ignoring the status quo to do what's right is that that's exactly what criticising an idea is. If people's opinions were always ignored, maybe we'd still be stuck with much older models of the universe.

But we really should get back on track. I'm of the opinion that whatever system you use for picking pockets, it's probably not going to be perfect, at least with out a lot of work. So, I'd personally favour these alternative uses of the SoH (Sleight of Hand) skill in more complex situations. As far as skill checks in general go - think of things like the Trial in the NWN2 OC. That was made up of a composite of many (often different) checks AND choices. You didn't always even know if your check had been successful. Whether you liked it or not, that trial was closer to a combat in terms of its layering and complexity.

[Arkalezth]

The Fred wrote...

He wasn't interested in download counts.

LOL.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 17 janvier 2011 - 07:15 .

[kevL]

just trying to get this thread back OT



good points btw

curry on

[kamal_]

I suggest looking further into the PRR system.

[nicethugbert]

Arkalezth wrote...

Alright. I'll quote everything. I omitted EE's quote just to save space.

nicethugbert wrote...

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Oh and to be clear, I never said not to formulate idea. My issue was with people who ONLY have complaints with every plan there, but not one of their own. So when you have issues with every plan and have no idea how much work it is to cover the issues AND have no plan of your own to provide ya it becomes less helpful.

TRUTH! The best thing to do is just ignore those people, focus on the solutions, and keep pumping out the ideas.

It doesn't sound so totally different to me. You were the one that used the word "ignore". I believe I'm one of these people he's refeering to (even though I made some suggestions). But my statement stays the same, no matter who I'm replying to.

Since you just want to blatantly distort quotes to claim victim status, I'll take my own advice now.  Have fun with that cross, but, I will not put any more nails in it for you.

[Arkalezth]

Can someone tell me what I am distorting exactly?

Maybe I din't make it clear. I meant that I omitted EE's quote the first time, but I quoted everything the second time. Go to the previous page and see it for yourself.

I don't have any interest in going on with the discussion, I already said that. I was only replying the posts that were directed to me.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 17 janvier 2011 - 09:41 .

[manageri]

Your mistake is that you're trying to have an honest discussion with NTB. He will misleadingly quote you but instead of responding to what you said he'll actually change the subject and pretend no one ever corrected his BS. That projection about playing a victim was also pretty hilarious.

[kamal_]

PRR includes checking of Charisma by default into the reputation penalties for pp and picking locks on owned chests. Adding in adjustments for skills would be no big deal.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Seems to me that this thread should be ended before everyone's Charisma takes a hit. What more is there to say really?

[Arkalezth]

Is there any module that uses PRR?