Yeah can we keep it civil please, no personal attacks.
Though I think most of the possible implementations of pocket-picking have more or less been thrashed out by now - the main point as I see it being, as with most things, keep it interesting and preferably unique. I feel less like reaching for the reload key if the world actually responds engagingly to my character (even if it's in a broadly negative way) than if some automated hostility crops up.
Pickpocket fail ideas
Débuté par
Lugaid of the Red Stripes
, janv. 09 2011 01:31
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#177
Posté 20 janvier 2011 - 07:02
dunniteowl
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- Members
- 1 559 messages
The truth is: There is no simple solution to the issue.
Moderator Hat On:
The other truth is, the reason there were problems in this discussion is a heavy focus on what's wrong with the ideas of others. Not on pointing it out, but in pounding it to the ground with sarcasm and ill chosen, highly emotive metaphor, which served to focus on that and not on actually providing assistive advice to the OP. It's important not to be overly harsh in one's analysis of the opinions of others. Not in being necessarily nice or polite, but at least on point and with the caveat that this is highly opinion based when it comes to how things look from someone else's perspective.
And this failure of wisdom is pretty liberally shared in this instance. I think everyone involved knows better, honestly.
Moderator Hat Off
The PRR is, I believe, used in The Red Prison? Maybe Subtlety of Thay? Somewhere in one of the modules released in that general time frame. Whether or not it's actually regularly utilized, I think, is less important than the fact that it serves just this sort of purpose and more. It provides greater and more robust options for the player of rogues without making it all that much more work for the builder at this point. Why? Because it's already done.
As importantly, it is highly undervalued as a system. It stands for Personal Reputation and Reaction System. I know that during development, a lot of us Citadel regulars had a lot of input for Vendalus that affected it's creation. And, for that reason, I know that it encompasses some pretty cool things. And if I recall properly, it provides a set of selectable (by uncommenting I believe) options within the system that, with a bit of extra work (and not a lot compared to starting from scratch) someone can do some pretty incredible things with in a module.
Secondly, I have yet to really hear of anyone specifically going out of their way to create a "Faction Zoo" as in NWN to cover the demands of the standard four factions only constant in both NWN and NWN2.
This particular screwup (in my not so humble opinion) of foresight with NWN2 not being able to cover a wider swath of reactions and factions (including having factions within factions and possibly Venn Diagram overlappings) is a severely limiting factor in the creation of great city adventures and political intrigues. How can a spy be a spy if his faction is actually the same as those upon whom he is spying?
And for pick pocketing and sleight of hand, being able to use them on anyone should have been 'de riguere' for construction purposes with factions being used to provide a basis of reaction/reputation changes (which they did include, just not fully featuered.)
I would once again, simply say that a re-read of my posts in this regard should be considered sufficient to drive interests and ideas up and not have them repeated endlessly or heavily whacked with a mallet.
Conversation Options are a viable and totally practical way to drive Pick Pocketing and not use the current system.
Dialog Options and Skill Checks are quite robust and don't require you to engage (or necessarily avoid, either) combat during failed attempts.
Thirdly: Without knowing all the minor gripes and complaints of players, we'd never be anything other than lucky to "get things right" according to the larger playerbase. That said, you must, must, must design for the things you'd like to have implemented from a player perspective and then hope that others are of like mind and in sufficient quantity to drive continued interest.
And clearly there is a results vs effort balancing act for a builder to determine if the effort required is really worth the gains achieved. I lean to not giving a rat's fart, as the achievement itself is generally my reward in the first place. Being my own harshest critic, I can take a fair amount of deserved as well as undeserved negative view from others, because more than likely I may be able to learn something from it and fix something I myself have not liked about anything I made. *(Now all I gotta do is somehow merge all this crap I have learned into something playable and release it to the catcalls, boos and hisses over the applause and cheers and I can go from there...)
In my view, other than using the PRR and some clever conversation choices and checks (I love alliteration...) the underlying issues have to be collectively solved for more meaningful systems to be created than the stock PP.SoH systems as they stand.
1) Factions have to be completely redone
2) Reputation and Reaction, as well as alignment and Standings have to have a time fader, so that over time, without additional interruption or variables added, it fades to an overall neutral point.
3) Variables must be able to be set, stuck and modified throughout the course of gameplay, not just for individual NPCs, but for sections of a larger town, a hamlet, even an entire region (as word travels -- and this has greater utility than mere pickpocketing, btw) in a sort of nested circles schematic of interplaying variables that affect such things as reputation in other towns, quests, status of enemy antipathy, political faux pas' etc, as well as how the local villagers of Sleepy Little Town Seven see you versus how the City Dwellers of Quarter Six view you.
4) Some form of timer/tracker of In-Game time so that timed quests, events and fading of Reputation (as well as reasonable time frames for a spreading reputation) can be effectively done.
Until such time as someone can tackle those larger -- and larger picture -- tasks for the overall advancement of gameplay options and builder creativity enhancements then, like a 1000 lawyers chained together at the bottom of the sea, Vendalus' PRR 3.0 is a good start.
dunniteowl
Moderator Hat On:
The other truth is, the reason there were problems in this discussion is a heavy focus on what's wrong with the ideas of others. Not on pointing it out, but in pounding it to the ground with sarcasm and ill chosen, highly emotive metaphor, which served to focus on that and not on actually providing assistive advice to the OP. It's important not to be overly harsh in one's analysis of the opinions of others. Not in being necessarily nice or polite, but at least on point and with the caveat that this is highly opinion based when it comes to how things look from someone else's perspective.
And this failure of wisdom is pretty liberally shared in this instance. I think everyone involved knows better, honestly.
Moderator Hat Off
The PRR is, I believe, used in The Red Prison? Maybe Subtlety of Thay? Somewhere in one of the modules released in that general time frame. Whether or not it's actually regularly utilized, I think, is less important than the fact that it serves just this sort of purpose and more. It provides greater and more robust options for the player of rogues without making it all that much more work for the builder at this point. Why? Because it's already done.
As importantly, it is highly undervalued as a system. It stands for Personal Reputation and Reaction System. I know that during development, a lot of us Citadel regulars had a lot of input for Vendalus that affected it's creation. And, for that reason, I know that it encompasses some pretty cool things. And if I recall properly, it provides a set of selectable (by uncommenting I believe) options within the system that, with a bit of extra work (and not a lot compared to starting from scratch) someone can do some pretty incredible things with in a module.
Secondly, I have yet to really hear of anyone specifically going out of their way to create a "Faction Zoo" as in NWN to cover the demands of the standard four factions only constant in both NWN and NWN2.
This particular screwup (in my not so humble opinion) of foresight with NWN2 not being able to cover a wider swath of reactions and factions (including having factions within factions and possibly Venn Diagram overlappings) is a severely limiting factor in the creation of great city adventures and political intrigues. How can a spy be a spy if his faction is actually the same as those upon whom he is spying?
And for pick pocketing and sleight of hand, being able to use them on anyone should have been 'de riguere' for construction purposes with factions being used to provide a basis of reaction/reputation changes (which they did include, just not fully featuered.)
I would once again, simply say that a re-read of my posts in this regard should be considered sufficient to drive interests and ideas up and not have them repeated endlessly or heavily whacked with a mallet.
Conversation Options are a viable and totally practical way to drive Pick Pocketing and not use the current system.
Dialog Options and Skill Checks are quite robust and don't require you to engage (or necessarily avoid, either) combat during failed attempts.
Thirdly: Without knowing all the minor gripes and complaints of players, we'd never be anything other than lucky to "get things right" according to the larger playerbase. That said, you must, must, must design for the things you'd like to have implemented from a player perspective and then hope that others are of like mind and in sufficient quantity to drive continued interest.
And clearly there is a results vs effort balancing act for a builder to determine if the effort required is really worth the gains achieved. I lean to not giving a rat's fart, as the achievement itself is generally my reward in the first place. Being my own harshest critic, I can take a fair amount of deserved as well as undeserved negative view from others, because more than likely I may be able to learn something from it and fix something I myself have not liked about anything I made. *(Now all I gotta do is somehow merge all this crap I have learned into something playable and release it to the catcalls, boos and hisses over the applause and cheers and I can go from there...)
In my view, other than using the PRR and some clever conversation choices and checks (I love alliteration...) the underlying issues have to be collectively solved for more meaningful systems to be created than the stock PP.SoH systems as they stand.
1) Factions have to be completely redone
2) Reputation and Reaction, as well as alignment and Standings have to have a time fader, so that over time, without additional interruption or variables added, it fades to an overall neutral point.
3) Variables must be able to be set, stuck and modified throughout the course of gameplay, not just for individual NPCs, but for sections of a larger town, a hamlet, even an entire region (as word travels -- and this has greater utility than mere pickpocketing, btw) in a sort of nested circles schematic of interplaying variables that affect such things as reputation in other towns, quests, status of enemy antipathy, political faux pas' etc, as well as how the local villagers of Sleepy Little Town Seven see you versus how the City Dwellers of Quarter Six view you.
4) Some form of timer/tracker of In-Game time so that timed quests, events and fading of Reputation (as well as reasonable time frames for a spreading reputation) can be effectively done.
Until such time as someone can tackle those larger -- and larger picture -- tasks for the overall advancement of gameplay options and builder creativity enhancements then, like a 1000 lawyers chained together at the bottom of the sea, Vendalus' PRR 3.0 is a good start.
dunniteowl
#178
Posté 20 janvier 2011 - 11:05
The Fred
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- Members
- 2 516 messages
I would say that picking pockets isn't really, but probably ought to be, treated as a piece of a larger picture. The whole idea of time-based events and things is worthy of multiple topics in itself.
