125 réponses à ce sujet

[The Big Nothing]

FRSHPRNFILL wrote...

To Big Nothing - I like how you called another analogy horrible earlier yet you use an analogy comparing the ability to fly with animals against the reapers using technology on the mass relay on themselves to keep them indestructible. Using analogies aren't the best way to prove a point.

My analogy is great. 

It shows the line between fantasy and consistency. A line that others do not seem to see.

People who write, "It's fiction--you can't criticize one aspect of it and not another," are stupid. Simple as that. Every universe has rules, and no matter how ridiculous the universe is, it is fine, so long as the rules are followed.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 09 janvier 2011 - 04:32 .

[1xs3thx1]

The Big Nothing wrote...
snip

Are you avoiding my argument now for a reason? You still haven't got a reason for how we know that they're not made of the same material.

[Bogsnot1]

The Big Nothing wrote...
Survival is the most basic instinct. It is the theme of the Mass Effect trilogy, as a matter of fact. Nothing embraces its own slaughter.

Ever heard of a species of creature called lemmings? How about the running of the bulls in Pamplona, where humans seems to embrace the opportunity to get trampled or gored to death? Or the March of the Red Crabs, where they blindly wander across busy roads, to be flattened by all sorts of vehicular and pedestrian traffic? Not to mention whales and dolphins beaching themselves. In many species of octopus, once the female has laid her fertilised eggs, she will just curl up and die. Surely survival instinct should kick in and force her to go on, and brood another clutch of eggs to further propogate the species.

As I mentioned in my first post, no fleet of ships has been recorded of going up to a relay and trying to bombard it, the same way as the Alliance fleet bombarded Sovereign.
The only record we do have, is that an expanding ball of superheated gas and plasma managed to push a relay out of position. From that, you make the assumption that the relays are indestructible.
Heres one analogy that does work. Take Toyotas advertising campaign. Early on, they called their Hilux's unbreakable. Now they have changed it to "virtually unbreakable", mainly due to people going to extremes to see if it was true. By adding "virtually", you are merely stating that conventional means are not enough, and some extreme measures are required in order to break it. It does not mean that it is impossible to do, only very, very difficult.
Besides, you are still taking Sov at his word that the Reapers created the relays. As I asked, do you trust the Batarians about the Leviathon? Neither have any reason to lie, right?

[TexasToast712]

Who said Relays are indestructible? Machines can be broken.

[Bogsnot1]

The Big Nothing wrote...
People who write, "It's fiction--you can't criticize one aspect of it and not another," are stupid. Simple as that. Every universe has rules, and no matter how ridiculous the universe is, it is fine, so long as the rules are followed.

Now that the vast majority have shot down your arguements, you resort to petty insults. If you dont like being proven wrong, I suggest you take some advice from 1xs3thx1's sig.

[FRSHPRNFILL]

The Big Nothing wrote...

FRSHPRNFILL wrote...

To Big Nothing - I like how you called another analogy horrible earlier yet you use an analogy comparing the ability to fly with animals against the reapers using technology on the mass relay on themselves to keep them indestructible. Using analogies aren't the best way to prove a point.

My analogy is great. 

It shows the line between fantasy and consistency. A line that others do not seem to see.

People who write, "It's fiction--you can't criticize one aspect of it and not another," are stupid. Simple as that. Every universe has rules, and no matter how ridiculous the universe is, it is fine, so long as the rules are followed.

I had no problem with your analogy being about fantasy and consistency, I had a problem with you comparing flying pigs to space aliens in the future (plus anything about the mass relay - a future technology). Sure in a sense it works, but it wouldn't hold up to facts. That's why analogies have never worked. It's also why I have a problem with you shooting down analogies (with the same effect and meaning as yours) and calling yours great.

/getting off topic with semantics

[The Big Nothing]

Squeeze the Fish wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

Squeeze the Fish wrote...

"Survival is the most basic instinct. It is the theme of the Mass Effect trilogy, as a matter of fact. Nothing embraces its own slaughter."

I thought Thane was pretty down with the whole death thing. And didn't Benezia ask you to kill her?

Not the point, I realize, but there it is.

First, nothing embraces its own death for the sake of dying. If you have a belief in the afterlife or are suffering, that changes things considerably.
Second, these are fictional characters.
In the face of death, every species will fight for survival. While there are individual anomalies, the general rule applies.
We all exist here on these forums because somewhere long ago ****** erectus suffered through cold nights, explosive diarrhea, and saber-toothed tiger fights. For what? Just survival.

Oh? I was under the impression we were talking about an entire fictional series. My bad!

Impressive. This murky gene pool is surprisingly deep.

I'm responding to somebody's claim that Thane was "cool" with his mortality, and that Benezia wanted to die. You can't seriously consider a fictional character's choices, like reapers deciding they should be made of cellophane rather than steel. This is the entire point of my topic.

I guess we can't expect realism in a fictional series. My bad!

I wonder when it will devolve in to a zero-gravity space porn, since it is all fantasy anyway.

[Sidac]

Bogsnot1 wrote...
Ever heard of a species of creature called lemmings? How about the running of the bulls in Pamplona, where humans seems to embrace the opportunity to get trampled or gored to death?
 
- The humans are not actively seeking to die. Its the adrenaline rush and the fact that you can stare death in the face and overcome that is the point to the run.

Or the March of the Red Crabs, where they blindly wander across busy roads, to be flattened by all sorts of vehicular and pedestrian traffic?

- Migration paths, humans have pretty much cut off all migration paths of almost every species on this planet. I don't know of a crab that can pull a 180 and haul ass off a street faster than a car. If you wind one, PM me id love to see it.

Not to mention whales and dolphins beaching themselves.

-Many other factors, age (embracing death comes with age to many species, including hoomans), sonar has been deemed the cause as to why some whales will dive deeper and faster than they can adapt and thus causing the bends (sp?) Fight or flight there.

In many species of octopus, once the female has laid her fertilised eggs, she will just curl up and die. Surely survival instinct should kick in and force her to go on, and brood another clutch of eggs to further propogate the species.

-Biological factors come into play here. For many species the birthing process (including humans) can prove to be too much and kill the birther. Look at salmon. Lay the eggs / sperm and die.

dont want to sound like salarian the brick wall but these were kinda weak

Modifié par Sidac, 09 janvier 2011 - 04:47 .

[The Big Nothing]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
People who write, "It's fiction--you can't criticize one aspect of it and not another," are stupid. Simple as that. Every universe has rules, and no matter how ridiculous the universe is, it is fine, so long as the rules are followed.

Now that the vast majority have shot down your arguements, you resort to petty insults. If you dont like being proven wrong, I suggest you take some advice from 1xs3thx1's sig.

I don't need to be polite to be right.

And the majority of people decided that burning "witches" was a good idea back in the 17th century. So, guess how much value I put in to popular opinion.

[The Big Nothing]

1xs3thx1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
snip

Are you avoiding my argument now for a reason? You still haven't got a reason for how we know that they're not made of the same material.

I already answered this: "virtually" indestructible being destroyed by conventional means. Regardless of Sovereign's avatar, there is still that hard shell to crack through. 

[Sidac]

The Big Nothing wrote...

And the majority of people decided that burning "witches" was a good idea back in the 17th century. So, guess how much value I put in to popular opinion.

starting in the 14th went as far as the 18th....


back on topic!

[1xs3thx1]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
People who write, "It's fiction--you can't criticize one aspect of it and not another," are stupid. Simple as that. Every universe has rules, and no matter how ridiculous the universe is, it is fine, so long as the rules are followed.

Now that the vast majority have shot down your arguements, you resort to petty insults. If you dont like being proven wrong, I suggest you take some advice from 1xs3thx1's sig.

I don't need to be polite to be right.

And the majority of people decided that burning "witches" was a good idea back in the 17th century. So, guess how much value I put in to popular opinion.

Since you have no reason for why my argument is incorrect, and you haven't even responded to it, it is my belief that you have no reasonable argument to my statement, and that from here on in you shall make petty attempts to insult those that continue to argue mine and Bigsnot1's arguments, and that you will continue to refuse to answer my question.

Much like what George W. Bush did, in  fact.

[Mr_Commander_Shepard]

the reapers dont build themselves, we have no idea what they really are or where they come from and they say that they just "are"

[1xs3thx1]

The Big Nothing wrote...

1xs3thx1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
snip

Are you avoiding my argument now for a reason? You still haven't got a reason for how we know that they're not made of the same material.

I already answered this: "virtually" indestructible being destroyed by conventional means. Regardless of Sovereign's avatar, there is still that hard shell to crack through. 

I'm not talking about that.....

I AM talking about the fact that we have NO evidence that they are NOT made of the SAME material.

Had you actually read my post, I conveyed the information that we have no actual evidence that the council has ever done weapons' tests on the Relays in an actual attempt to destroy them, or anyone for that matter, thus we have no proof that they are as "virtually indestructible" as you and the source you quoted do.

Modifié par 1xs3thx1, 09 janvier 2011 - 04:52 .

[didymos1120]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
Survival is the most basic instinct. It is the theme of the Mass Effect trilogy, as a matter of fact. Nothing embraces its own slaughter.

Ever heard of a species of creature called lemmings?

Yeah, and all that "mass lemming suicide" stuff is pure nonense:

Lemmings became the subject of a popular myth that they commit mass suicide when they migrate. Driven by strong biological urges, some species of lemmings may migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat. In such cases, many may drown if the body of water is so wide as to stretch their physical capability to the limit. This fact combined with the unexplained fluctuations in the population of Norwegian lemmings gave rise to the myth.

[The Big Nothing]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
Survival is the most basic instinct. It is the theme of the Mass Effect trilogy, as a matter of fact. Nothing embraces its own slaughter.

Ever heard of a species of creature called lemmings? How about the running of the bulls in Pamplona, where humans seems to embrace the opportunity to get trampled or gored to death? Or the March of the Red Crabs, where they blindly wander across busy roads, to be flattened by all sorts of vehicular and pedestrian traffic? Not to mention whales and dolphins beaching themselves. In many species of octopus, once the female has laid her fertilised eggs, she will just curl up and die. Surely survival instinct should kick in and force her to go on, and brood another clutch of eggs to further propogate the species.

As I mentioned in my first post, no fleet of ships has been recorded of going up to a relay and trying to bombard it, the same way as the Alliance fleet bombarded Sovereign.
The only record we do have, is that an expanding ball of superheated gas and plasma managed to push a relay out of position. From that, you make the assumption that the relays are indestructible.
Heres one analogy that does work. Take Toyotas advertising campaign. Early on, they called their Hilux's unbreakable. Now they have changed it to "virtually unbreakable", mainly due to people going to extremes to see if it was true. By adding "virtually", you are merely stating that conventional means are not enough, and some extreme measures are required in order to break it. It does not mean that it is impossible to do, only very, very difficult.
Besides, you are still taking Sov at his word that the Reapers created the relays. As I asked, do you trust the Batarians about the Leviathon? Neither have any reason to lie, right?

I trust everything Sovereign says--he seems like a swell guy. I can only operate off of what we have heard. Maybe Vigil was lying, too. Or how about the Illusive Man, maybe he planted a control chip in your brain after all. We can speculate all day.

"Once the female has laid her fertilized eggs" - Surely every woman should give birth to a dozen children. Pshh. C'mon. She has done her part in perpetuating the species. That is survival.
I'm sure the crabs don't understand the concept of traffic, just as deer don't. We can't be sure that neither are committing suicide, but chances are: No.
And the Running of the Bulls is just darwinism at its finest. The stupid are not subject to the rules of survival.

P.S. The tether thing was a joke.

[Mr_Commander_Shepard]

didymos1120 wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
Survival is the most basic instinct. It is the theme of the Mass Effect trilogy, as a matter of fact. Nothing embraces its own slaughter.

Ever heard of a species of creature called lemmings?

Yeah, and all that "mass lemming suicide" stuff is pure nonense:

Lemmings became the subject of a popular myth that they commit mass suicide when they migrate. Driven by strong biological urges, some species of lemmings may migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat. In such cases, many may drown if the body of water is so wide as to stretch their physical capability to the limit. This fact combined with the unexplained fluctuations in the population of Norwegian lemmings gave rise to the myth.

wtf??

[The Big Nothing]

didymos1120 wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
Survival is the most basic instinct. It is the theme of the Mass Effect trilogy, as a matter of fact. Nothing embraces its own slaughter.

Ever heard of a species of creature called lemmings?

Yeah, and all that "mass lemming suicide" stuff is pure nonense:

Lemmings became the subject of a popular myth that they commit mass suicide when they migrate. Driven by strong biological urges, some species of lemmings may migrate in large groups when population density becomes too great. Lemmings can swim and may choose to cross a body of water in search of a new habitat. In such cases, many may drown if the body of water is so wide as to stretch their physical capability to the limit. This fact combined with the unexplained fluctuations in the population of Norwegian lemmings gave rise to the myth.

Poor lemmings.

[Bogsnot1]

Sidac wrote...
dont want to sound like salarian the brick wall but these were kinda weak

I know, but it also shows how weak the "survival instinct" argument was. In many cases, the need to breed outweighs the survival instinct. Adult salmon never, ever go into freshwater streams except to breed. Until that desire kicks in, they stay well away from them, as they "know" it is a hostile environment.
Octopii do it to make room on the food chain for their spawn. Wolf spiders allow their young to consume their bodies whilst they are still alive, giving them a boost to help survive past their most vulnerable stage of life.
Whales and dolphins beach themselves due to an alpha leading them astray, but the herd instinct overrules their survival instincts.


Edit: I made no mention of lemmings committing suicide. I merely brought them up as an example of how creatures will ignore their survival instincts in order to either breed, or migrate. Until certain environmental factors push them to do so, they wont enter fast moving rivers, or rush over the edges of cliffs. Same with crabs and/or deer with traffic. They take the roads because they are either in the way, or convenient, yet after witnessing hundreds (crabs) or dozens (deer) of deaths on said roads, the survival instinct doesnt kick in and make them think to themselves "this place is bad".
Instinct will only take you so far, from there on, its down to intelligence. You cant rely on luck to live your life, unless you plan to die young.

Modifié par Bogsnot1, 09 janvier 2011 - 05:04 .

[The Big Nothing]

1xs3thx1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

1xs3thx1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
snip

Are you avoiding my argument now for a reason? You still haven't got a reason for how we know that they're not made of the same material.

I already answered this: "virtually" indestructible being destroyed by conventional means. Regardless of Sovereign's avatar, there is still that hard shell to crack through. 

I'm not talking about that.....

I AM talking about the fact that we have NO evidence that they are NOT made of the SAME material.

Had you actually read my post, I conveyed the information that we have no actual evidence that the council has ever done weapons' tests on the Relays in an actual attempt to destroy them, or anyone for that matter, thus we have no proof that they are as "virtually indestructible" as you and the source you quoted do.

I read your post.

The "misconception" of relay indestructibility came from somewhere. I am operating off of that. 
I'll phrase it like this:

If Mass Relays are indestructible, as we've been lead to believe, then why don't Reapers, whom we know are responsible for their own construction, build themselves from the same material?

[Mr_Commander_Shepard]

The Big Nothing wrote...

1xs3thx1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

1xs3thx1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
snip

Are you avoiding my argument now for a reason? You still haven't got a reason for how we know that they're not made of the same material.

I already answered this: "virtually" indestructible being destroyed by conventional means. Regardless of Sovereign's avatar, there is still that hard shell to crack through. 

I'm not talking about that.....

I AM talking about the fact that we have NO evidence that they are NOT made of the SAME material.

Had you actually read my post, I conveyed the information that we have no actual evidence that the council has ever done weapons' tests on the Relays in an actual attempt to destroy them, or anyone for that matter, thus we have no proof that they are as "virtually indestructible" as you and the source you quoted do.

I read your post.

The "misconception" of relay indestructibility came from somewhere. I am operating off of that. 
I'll phrase it like this:

If Mass Relays are indestructible, as we've been lead to believe, then why don't Reapers, whom we know are responsible for their own construction, build themselves from the same material?

your going off of if? wow, then this thread should be if they ruined mass effect..

[The Big Nothing]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Sidac wrote...
dont want to sound like salarian the brick wall but these were kinda weak

I know, but it also shows how weak the "survival instinct" argument was. In many cases, the need to breed outweighs the survival instinct. Adult salmon never, ever go into freshwater streams except to breed. Until that desire kicks in, they stay well away from them, as they "know" it is a hostile environment.
Octopii do it to make room on the food chain for their spawn. Wolf spiders allow their young to consume their bodies whilst they are still alive, giving them a boost to help survive past their most vulnerable stage of life.
Whales and dolphins beach themselves due to an alpha leading them astray, but the herd instinct overrules their survival instincts.

The "need to breed" is survival. Posterity is all about survival. 

Generally, we do not willingly die if there is nothing to die for. 

[Sidac]

The Big Nothing wrote...

The "need to breed" is survival. Posterity is all about survival. 

Generally, we do not willingly die if there is nothing to die for. 

What he says is true. There are moments that the law mainly pertains the the individual itself but in the "need to breed", as long as you breed, you are surviving.

Modifié par Sidac, 09 janvier 2011 - 05:11 .

[The Big Nothing]

Mr_Commander_Shepard wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

1xs3thx1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

1xs3thx1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
snip

Are you avoiding my argument now for a reason? You still haven't got a reason for how we know that they're not made of the same material.

I already answered this: "virtually" indestructible being destroyed by conventional means. Regardless of Sovereign's avatar, there is still that hard shell to crack through. 

I'm not talking about that.....

I AM talking about the fact that we have NO evidence that they are NOT made of the SAME material.

Had you actually read my post, I conveyed the information that we have no actual evidence that the council has ever done weapons' tests on the Relays in an actual attempt to destroy them, or anyone for that matter, thus we have no proof that they are as "virtually indestructible" as you and the source you quoted do.

I read your post.

The "misconception" of relay indestructibility came from somewhere. I am operating off of that. 
I'll phrase it like this:

If Mass Relays are indestructible, as we've been lead to believe, then why don't Reapers, whom we know are responsible for their own construction, build themselves from the same material?

your going off of if? wow, then this thread should be if they ruined mass effect..

Going off of "if" like everyone else, yes. It's all speculation.

And "ruin-ing" is not an absolute; it is a process. 
For example, I can be drown-ing, but that means nothing unless I actually drown. 
This thread is about the speculation of flaws in Mass Effect, and thus, ruining Mass Effect. 

So the name is appropriate.