125 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidac]

The Big Nothing wrote...

[Going off of "if" like everyone else, yes. It's all speculation.

And "ruin-ing" is not an absolute; it is a process. 
For example, I can be drown-ing, but that means nothing unless I actually drown. 
This thread is about the speculation of flaws in Mass Effect, and thus, ruining Mass Effect. 

So the name is appropriate.

[Squeeze the Fish]

m4walker wrote...

Because the can't, they are already made. they didn't create themselves.
At least that's what the game made me understand.

I may be wrong, but isn't that what they were doing in ME2? Building a "human" Reaper?

EDIT: After reading what you wrote a couple of times, I'm not sure if what I said applies or not. :S

Modifié par Squeeze the Fish, 09 janvier 2011 - 05:18 .

[The Big Nothing]

m4walker wrote...

Because the can't, they are already made. they didn't create themselves.
At least that's what the game made me understand.

We've seen the attempted creation, though--a Reaper being constructed by the Collectors, who are controlled by the Reapers. Perhaps the first generation of Reapers were built by organics, but it's all synthetic now.

Maybe I am wrong about the mass relays, though. Hopefully, in Mass Effect 3 E.D.I will go, "Shepard, I have had an opportunity to analyze the base components of a mass relay, and it appears to be made of tin foil," or some such nonsense.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 09 janvier 2011 - 05:17 .

[Bogsnot1]

The Big Nothing wrote...
The "misconception" of relay indestructibility came from somewhere. I am operating off of that.

Please provide a known source of all efforts to destroy a relay, using any means possible. "Somewhere" just doesnt cut it.
You are basing your entire arguement on an assumption that just because some hot gas and plasma doesnt hurt a relay, then nothing will. People assumed the Earth was flat, that it lay in the centre of the known universe, that bad humors caused sickness, rats were the direct cause of the bubonic plague, and mental illness was caused by demonic possession.
Assumptions lead you into all sorts of wacky thinking, that only logic and reason can get you out of.
You may have been lead to believe that the relays are indestructible, yet those with the capability of logic and reason, can see flaws in this argument.

If Mass Relays are indestructible, as we've Ive been lead to believe, then why don't Reapers, whom we know are responsible for their own construction, build themselves from the same material?

Then what was the point of the Collectors harvesting humans, if the materials werent up to the job?
You contract a company to build you a house, you specify the materials. If they dont provide the materials as per your specifications, then the job is not done.

[The Big Nothing]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
The "misconception" of relay indestructibility came from somewhere. I am operating off of that.

Please provide a known source of all efforts to destroy a relay, using any means possible. "Somewhere" just doesnt cut it.
You are basing your entire arguement on an assumption that just because some hot gas and plasma doesnt hurt a relay, then nothing will. People assumed the Earth was flat, that it lay in the centre of the known universe, that bad humors caused sickness, rats were the direct cause of the bubonic plague, and mental illness was caused by demonic possession.
Assumptions lead you into all sorts of wacky thinking, that only logic and reason can get you out of.
You may have been lead to believe that the relays are indestructible, yet those with the capability of logic and reason, can see flaws in this argument.

If Mass Relays are indestructible, as we've Ive been lead to believe, then why don't Reapers, whom we know are responsible for their own construction, build themselves from the same material?

Then what was the point of the Collectors harvesting humans, if the materials werent up to the job?
You contract a company to build you a house, you specify the materials. If they dont provide the materials as per your specifications, then the job is not done.

I read it on the Mass Effect wiki, as I posted (with link) earlier in the topic.

And I said, if that is incorrect, then I bow down humbly.
But if mass relays are indestructible, it is ridiculous that a machine race with millions of years to plot didn't think, "Hmm, you know, maybe we should probe some planets and get those hull upgrades."

"Where does it say that they have tried to destroy a mass relay using any means possible?" 
Well, looking for concrete evidence in a speculative topic is kind of silly, don't ya think? You could also ask how we know for sure that the Citadel is actually a mass relay since it wasn't activated. Or how do we know quarians have faces if we haven't seen them?
In the codex we trust.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 09 janvier 2011 - 05:27 .

[Veex]

The Big Nothing wrote...

If Mass Relays are indestructible, as we've been lead to believe, then why don't Reapers, whom we know are responsible for their own construction, build themselves from the same material?

Invincible enemies are really, really boring.

[The Big Nothing]

Veex wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

If Mass Relays are indestructible, as we've been lead to believe, then why don't Reapers, whom we know are responsible for their own construction, build themselves from the same material?

Invincible enemies are really, really boring.

Or not. Death is inevitable, unconquerable, but damn compelling.

Edit: Unconquerable unless you are Shepard.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 09 janvier 2011 - 05:40 .

[Sidac]

The Big Nothing wrote...

But if mass relays are indestructible, it is ridiculous that a machine race with millions of years to plot didn't think, "Hmm, you know, maybe we should probe some planets and get those hull upgrades."

but if you stop races before they get to the point of needing those upgrades for the last few million years, whats the point of getting them? While I normally use the argument that someone will eventually figure out the weakness, the reapers didn't plan for it.

[Bogsnot1]

The Big Nothing wrote...
I read it on the Mass Effect wiki, as I posted (with link) earlier in the topic.

I feel an overwhelming, forceful mind taking over my own feeble mental processes. It feels......turian.
"Ahh, yes. The infallibility of wiki's. We have dismissed that claim."

[dan350z]

The Big Nothing wrote...

The Reapers constructed the Mass Relays, each of which is indestructible, even by supernova, so why don't they construct themselves similarly? Then, no matter the enemy, they would be immune to all forms of attack and be guaranteed victory against any organic race.

Ruined Mass Effect.

My best guess would be that the Reapers would need to be more flexible and maneuverable, the relays are just HUGE solid chunks of metal sitting out in space, not moving or anything so they can be far more dense then a ship.  The reapers have hollow interiors since Saren was riding in one.

[1xs3thx1]

The Big Nothing wrote...

If Mass Relays are indestructible, as we've been lead to believe, then why don't Reapers, whom we know are responsible for their own construction, build themselves from the same material?

Nice jump from "virtually indestructible" to "indestructible".

The simple answer is that Relays are not indestructible, and that we do not know that the Reapers do not build themselves from the same material.

[catgirl789]

dan350z wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

The Reapers constructed the Mass Relays, each of which is indestructible, even by supernova, so why don't they construct themselves similarly? Then, no matter the enemy, they would be immune to all forms of attack and be guaranteed victory against any organic race.

Ruined Mass Effect.

My best guess would be that the Reapers would need to be more flexible and maneuverable, the relays are just HUGE solid chunks of metal sitting out in space, not moving or anything so they can be far more dense then a ship.  The reapers have hollow interiors since Saren was riding in one.

This.
 
Plus, even if they did make themselves out of the same thing as the mass relays, let's say Sovereign didn't get his upgrade yet and that's why the fleet was able to take him down, the reapers obviously have access hatches somewhere as both Saren and Shepard & co. have walked around in one. So worst case scenario is that the galaxy will have to figure out a way to open the hatch and destroy the reapers one by one from the inside out.

Modifié par catgirl789, 09 janvier 2011 - 06:34 .

[Phaedon]

Except that two fleets were firing at Sovereign, and not even his shields would go down. Sovereign's avatar, Saren, had to be defeated first, not to destroy Sovereign, but rather take his shields down for a bit, so that then two fleets could take him down. So, yes, they are virtually indestructible.

[MaaZeus]

I am with the crowd who thinks that NO race has truly tried to destroy a relay, meaning a fleet bombarding it with all they got. Because why in the name of all that is holy they want to do that!? If they would do it, and succeed, do you have any idea what happens? That system would be isolated FOREVER! No-one would get in or out, they dont know how to build new ones nor we dont have good enough FTL engines that allows them to travel outside of that cluster to place new ones wherever they want to go.

No, most likely they have just tried to enter inside one to analyze it and figure out how it works, only to find out that even their strongest plasma torches cannot open it. Hence VIRTUALLY indestructible. But having fleet bombarding it mass drives with incredible kinetic power? It MIGHT very well give in and be destroyed, but again why the hell they would do that even in the name of science? Results would be catastrophic if they would succeed with absolutely no gain!

Modifié par MaaZeus, 09 janvier 2011 - 12:17 .

[MaaZeus]

Phaedon wrote...

Except that two fleets were firing at Sovereign, and not even his shields would go down. Sovereign's avatar, Saren, had to be defeated first, not to destroy Sovereign, but rather take his shields down for a bit, so that then two fleets could take him down. So, yes, they are virtually indestructible.

I disagree. Vigil said that single Reaper is not invulnerable to massive fleets. Sovereign was getting damaged, just very very slowly. I dont believe Sarens death had anything do with Sovereigns destruction other than it fails to open the relay to darkspace.

[didymos1120]

MaaZeus wrote...

I disagree.

All well and good, except that the game is quite explicit: they weren't getting through the kinetic barrier at all.  Sovereign was just frying 'em left and right, and they all stopped firing, choosing to concentrate on not dying.  Shep kills RoboSpectre, at which point the shields suddenly drop.  Joker notices this and informs the fleet, at which point Hackett then orders them to start attacking again, while Sovereign is still stunned and drifiting away from the tower. 

Just go watch one of the bajillion vids of the battle on Youtube if you need confirmation.

Modifié par didymos1120, 09 janvier 2011 - 12:28 .

[adam_grif]

Hey guys if firing air to air missiles at mountains doesn't destroy them, how come they don't just build aircraft out of mountains?



Real life has a plot hole guys!

[Onyx Jaguar]

This is what I like to see



my kevlar is going to be replaced by a huge mountain

[Fiery Phoenix]

adam_grif wrote...

Hey guys if firing air to air missiles at mountains doesn't destroy them, how come they don't just build aircraft out of mountains?

Real life has a plot hole guys!

[Phaedon]

I am pretty sure that mountains do get damaged.

[DarthCaine]

O.M.F.G.



THE MASS RELAYS ARE THE ENEMY

[adam_grif]

I am pretty sure that mountains do get damaged.

Sure, in the same way a tank could theoretically be destroyed by an infinite number of 9mm bullets striking it, slowly whittling it down atom by atom.

Appeals to the Relays being indestructible are nonsense, we know nearly nothing about their actual durability beyond "they are very tough", Has anybody even tried to destroy one before? Point is though, Relays are way, way bigger than Reapers are. The fact that Relays (might) be tougher than Reapers (remember, Reapers were immune to weapons fire until the barriers went down and the Relays probably have similar defenses) when they're like 50x bigger isn't surprising in any way.

Assuming that since a very large thing is effectively immune to a weapon, that a much smaller one could be also just because they built it out of the same materials is very, very silly.

Modifié par adam_grif, 09 janvier 2011 - 01:07 .

[Phaedon]

Yes, that's correct. Nothing can be absolutely indestructible.

[Dionkey]

Phaedon wrote...

Except that two fleets were firing at Sovereign, and not even his shields would go down. Sovereign's avatar, Saren, had to be defeated first, not to destroy Sovereign, but rather take his shields down for a bit, so that then two fleets could take him down. So, yes, they are virtually indestructible.

Just a thought here but won't thanix cannons make a huge difference once the whole fleet is armed with them?

[MaaZeus]

didymos1120 wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

I disagree.

All well and good, except that the game is quite explicit: they weren't getting through the kinetic barrier at all.  Sovereign was just frying 'em left and right, and they all stopped firing, choosing to concentrate on not dying.  Shep kills RoboSpectre, at which point the shields suddenly drop.  Joker notices this and informs the fleet, at which point Hackett then orders them to start attacking again, while Sovereign is still stunned and drifiting away from the tower. 

Just go watch one of the bajillion vids of the battle on Youtube if you need confirmation.

I am in the process of playing ME1 again, half way through so I will see the end again. I will take a good look at it.