672 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Bamboozalist wrote...
I laughed. Jacob doesn't start out with Daddy issues though? And where is Kasumi in that list?

Jacob is actually the only guy who's mentally stable. He takes femshep's sexual harrasment in stride, and he's the only one who you don't need to make a choice for in his loyalty mission. And he calls out the Illusive Man. Naw, he's the only sane one there.

[Pwner1323]

In Exile wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...
I laughed. Jacob doesn't start out with Daddy issues though? And where is Kasumi in that list?

Jacob is actually the only guy who's mentally stable. He takes femshep's sexual harrasment in stride, and he's the only one who you don't need to make a choice for in his loyalty mission. And he calls out the Illusive Man. Naw, he's the only sane one there.

So we don't make a choice in his mission? What about his father's fate? Did you play the game?

[FeelTheMighty]

Slidell505 wrote...
Are you ****ting me? The reapers are the mainplot.

Yeah, but it's really the journey that's most important. Bioware already stated years ago that Shepard does end up destroying the Reapers...so why do we keep playing? For exploration into the lore of the Mass Effect universe... To unravel other huge mysteries of the Universe. To develop relationships with other species, and understand their cultures.

[Bamboozalist]

Pwner1323 wrote...

So we don't make a choice in his mission? What about his father's fate? Did you play the game?

That choice doesn't impact Jacob at all though. Look at the other loyalty missions in comparison. The end choice has a pretty big impact on them, Jacob personally could care less and doesn't change at all because of it. He's the most stable of any of the crew. Well...except for Legion, but Legion doesn't really count.

[Pwner1323]

FeelTheMighty wrote...

Bioware already stated years ago that Shepard does end up destroying the Reapers

Oh **** they did? You just ruined my point of living!

[In Exile]

Pwner1323 wrote...
So we don't make a choice in his mission? What about his father's fate? Did you play the game?

Yeah. Regardless whether you pick the paragon or renegede option, Jacob doesn't shot his dad or anything. He always gets turned in.

[Pwner1323]

In Exile wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...
So we don't make a choice in his mission? What about his father's fate? Did you play the game?

Yeah. Regardless whether you pick the paragon or renegede option, Jacob doesn't shot his dad or anything. He always gets turned in.

Weird because I always leave the bastard to die in the hell he made. Must be something wrong with you're game.

[FeelTheMighty]

Pwner1323 wrote...

FeelTheMighty wrote...

Bioware already stated years ago that Shepard does end up destroying the Reapers

Oh **** they did? You just ruined my point of living!

But I do remember them saying that before ME2 came out, when asked about the limited amount of choices given in the story.

[Nightwriter]

In Exile wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
But... those are two line fights you are describing. They are brief firecracker moments after which the crew goes back to not acknowledging each others' existence. I was very disappointed that there were only those two fights. In ME1, I get to have a whole conversation with Ashley that delves into her beliefs and assumptions about aliens.

Yes - you have four lines with Ashley, compared to a combined four lines with the four NPCs. Yes, ME2 totally took a step back there. Way to rock that depth, ME1.

I'm sorry, but Ashley's racism comments weren't related to the crew at all, except as a tangetial introduction. They were just her characterization track, like Jack's emotional damage or Grunt's puberty. They all relate to the fact her grandfather lost Shanxi.

That said, ME1 is far from the shining poster child of good character interaction. The idea of those fights was a bona fide improvement, I just wish they'd put the pedal to the metal with it. All I've ever said is that I didn't stroll through the SR1 going, "God, do these people even know each other are alive?"

Like ME1. Aside from the cat-fight between Liara and Ashley or Kaiden, no one knew anyone else was alive.

Their elevator dialogue proved to me they were at least aware of each other's existence. Banter is always better than no banter. ME1 had banter. ME2 didn't. Will you allow me this? Anyhoo...

Hmm. Now you make me reconsider my point. Hmm again. I guess because the crew was smaller, these interactions felt bigger. But ME2's crew is huge. The same amount of interaction feels meager. I suppose that is why it feels like it's on a different scale to me.

No! That isn't it. It's that ME1 was not a character focused game, so any character interaction it gives feels like a bonus, whereas ME2 is a character focused game, and any character interaction it does not deliver feels like an unmet requirement. Yes that's it exactly.

[cachx]

Slidell505 wrote...
Loyalty Missions Bullet point.
Shepard, My supposed dead father with wich I have no trauma about may still be alive, let's investigate!
Shepard, My crazy father is going to kidnap my sister, wich I in turn kidnapped when she was a baby.
Shepard, I need help rescuing my protege, and explore the ethics of of the genophage while we do so!
Shepard, my friend betrayed me help me hunt him down for revenge, and you might convince me to take a moral choice.
Shepard, I was raised in a lab to be a weapon, I need to face my past.
Shepard, I was made in a laboratory and grew up in a tank, show me my heritage and the ways of my people.
Shepard, I need to liberate a refinery and kill my enemy of 20 years.
Shepard, I need help stealing the only memory of my dead boyfriend.
Shepard, My whole race thinks I betrayed them because of my dad, and I need a lawyer.
Shepard, My son may be following my bad footsteps, also I'm dying.
Shepard, My daughter is a space vampire and I love her, but we need to kill her.
Shepard-Commader, the stuff we need to do is too complex to explain in a single sentence

fixed

[Iakus]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Do they?  Remember, the squadmate with the loyalty mission give a message to Kelly to pass along to Shepard.  Beyond that, no one else even knows that the others on their team have any issues in the first place.  And again, they have no reason to comment.  Just using your examples, Samara respects Shepard's decisions.  She isn't going to try to start anything with Zaeed, because Shepard would obviously intervene.  While she's on your team, she follows you and accepts your decisions.  Thane, regarding Garrus, probably realizes that Garrus' problems are his own and that he should figure them out.  I understand you want more input, but a lot of your ideas involve circumstances which don't work, IMO.

Nobody knows anyone else has issues because no one talks to each other!  Period!  I say they have every reason to comment when they see events unfolding before their very eyes.  Oath or no oath, is Samara going to let innocent  people burn to death without saying a word?  Even to warn Shep and Zaeed that she will be compelled to hunt them down later over this?  Is Tali going to say nothing while Shep considers unfying the geth?  Thane has literally spent years trying to atone for what he did to his wife's killers, trying to make the galaxy better.  Do you think he'd pass up the chance to counsel someone in a similar situation to avoid his pain?  By the same token, could you not see Jack egging Garrus on, telling him betrayal must be paid back in blood (in coarser language, obviously) it's not like she'd be respectful of anyone's feelings.

It's like Legion says, it's all about perspective.  We need to see the squadmates' perspectives to give them depth.

As for "teambuilding" I guess you and I have two different ideas of what teambuilding is.  I dislike the constant comparisons between ME and DA, as though the two should've drawn ideas from each other.  Two different types of games, two different settings and concepts.  I considering ME2 to be team-building.  The squad already works together well under combat conditions, and you get to know them and help them resolve their personal affairs before they go on a mission where (for all intents and purposes, thematically) they're likely going to die.

Dragon Age is a very different game from Mass Effect.  1 or 2.  But the way the companions interact is precisely what a character driven game like ME 2 needed.  These are all strong, independant characters.  With a variety of motives and outlooks.  How these characters respond to each other should have been a major part of the game.  Particularly a game where getting to know them and earning their loyalty was a key part.  Loyalty to each other is a vital part of teamwork.   The two arguements we do get is just a pale shadow of what we should have had.

[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...
So we don't make a choice in his mission? What about his father's fate? Did you play the game?

Yeah. Regardless whether you pick the paragon or renegede option, Jacob doesn't shot his dad or anything. He always gets turned in.

No actually. Chosing neutral has you leav his dad to be turn apart by the savages, choosing paragon has him arrested and choosing renegade has Jacob give his dad a gun to kill himself with.

And I call BS on the characters being the story. They barely even spoke to one another for pete's sake.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 janvier 2011 - 11:32 .

[petarded2]

It's the fact that characters are so separate from the story that killed ME2 for me. The entire Mass Effect storyline stagnates so we can talk to a bunch of random guys and help them resolve their personal issues. Mass Effect 2 isn't a character driven story, it's just characters. The "story" is a generic contrived mess, desperately trying to keep me interested with shark-jumpy scenes like Shepard's death and the Terminator boss. The game is simply filler to pad out the trilogy. The missions themselves are great, but the way they're connected isn't by any means.

[adam_grif]

11 pages sprung up while I was sleeping, goddamn.



I'd like to add that comments to the effect of ..."yeah well ME1 didn't have much crew interaction either" are irrelevant since we are discussing what the game should have been, what it was missing etc, not having yet another mindless "ME1 vs ME2" thread.

[The Smoking Man]

cachx wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...
Loyalty Missions Bullet point.
Shepard, My supposed dead father with wich I have no trauma about may still be alive, let's investigate!
Shepard, My crazy father is going to kidnap my sister, wich I in turn kidnapped when she was a baby.
Shepard, I need help rescuing my protege, and explore the ethics of of the genophage while we do so!
Shepard, my friend betrayed me help me hunt him down for revenge, and you might convince me to take a moral choice.
Shepard, I was raised in a lab to be a weapon, I need to face my past.
Shepard, I was made in a laboratory and grew up in a tank, show me my heritage and the ways of my people.
Shepard, I need to liberate a refinery and kill my enemy of 20 years.
Shepard, I need help stealing the only memory of my dead boyfriend.
Shepard, My whole race thinks I betrayed them because of my dad, and I need a lawyer.
Shepard, My son may be following my bad footsteps, also I'm dying.
Shepard, My daughter is a space vampire and I love her, but we need to kill her.
Shepard-Commader, the stuff we need to do is too complex to explain in a single sentence

fixed

You do a pretty good job at candy coating/spinning things. Trying to get a job in journalism, or perhaps in law or politics?

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 09 janvier 2011 - 11:37 .

[Iakus]

petarded2 wrote...

 Mass Effect 2 isn't a character driven story, it's just characters.

I love this line.  It definitely sums things up here.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Fair warning, this post should be massive. All other replies will be separate.

RiouHotaru wrote...

Several parts of ME2 come right out and say that Shepard was basically slush. Redemption says there's not enough left to tell if Shepard is a man or a woman (a clever way to avoid giving gender!) So I don't consider it poor writing at all. It took 2 years, the best manpower and technology money can buy, and 4 BILLION credits. Even Wilson admits that it's a miracle of medical science they were even able to do it at all. It's also implied there were several close calls during the process.

That is once again, still a plothole and since plotholes are a negative. That would insinuate poor writing. If Shepard’s brain is mush, it could not be rebuilt. There is no amount of technology that is feasibly and logically possible that would alter this absolution. If you pour juice in a robot, it will not miraculously development a personality, let alone harbor that of another. This presumes Shepard was not incinerated upon reentry. If she was there again would was nothing to reconstruct. Based on the knowledge Bioware has granted, the Larazus Project is the definition of a plothole with one exception; space magic.

Oh, wait. Two exceptions; Shepard is Space Jesus. However, Ash calling him a God would suggest otherwise. ME2 contradicts its own contradictions! My apologies, I had that joke it my head and wanted to post it.

ME2 didn't NEED to expand on the Reaper plot, besides the fact they they're obviously coming or planning something. Shepard is looking for a means to stop them when the Collectors come along and go "Not so fast, Bucko!" and kill you. TIM reveals that there's something going on that he strongly believes is connected to the Reapers and wants you to investigate. Yes, the Collectors being Protheans is sort of ignored after it's discovered, but really, it changes nothing, nor negates anything you learned. The Protheans were still wiped out by the Reapers, they no longer exist as themselves.

A sequel does need to expand on the overarching plot because that is what the definition of a sequel is. How ME2 is portrayed makes it an expansion game or a step above what each Final Fantasy title is. Evidently, neither are sequels because the plot from the original is not developed or moved forward. The Collectors assaulting and subsequently killing Shepard is the initially opening, and a good one if we ignore the eventual resurrection nonsense. Unfortunately, nothing happens. Shepard is not attempting to find the Collectors; she is not discovering anything about them. They merely show up randomly and accomplishing nothing. Take Horizon for example.

It is mentioned they target Horizon due to the VS’ presence, except upon leaving. They do not take the VS. So in spite of it being their primary objective, they simply forgot? Shepard did not prevent them from taking Ash/Kaidan since they had ample time to capture the colony. So was it a miscommunication? Was one of the Collectors about to be fire? And just didn't care. Or perhaps TIM was wrong and merely speculating, however that would mean the Collectors just randomly attack places, which is not good plot development because that has been all they ever did.

In fact, the mere fact that the Collectors are Protheans repurposed DOES contribute to the plot. At first, we just assume the Reapers warp into the galaxy via the Citadel, wipe out all organic civilization down to the last man, then warp back out and wait for it to happen again. Simple, yes? No, now we know they have possible ulterior motives for trying to wipe everyone out. Apparently they're making more of themselves! Why? For what reason? Well, those are questions set up for ME3. Sure, we're no closer to stopping the Reapers than before, but we do have some insight, even if it raises more questions than answers.

Except you already admitted this, there was no development. The game essentially ignored this discovery and marginalized it almost immediately. We already knew they indoctrinated and became sleeper agents for the Reapers. The fact they were once Prothens is a good plot angle, but nothing comes of it. The Reaperrminator concept is all the more baffling and poorly executed. If the Reapers mutated one race, why are they now reducing another race to goo? Were the Prothens simply so horrendously inferior they were deemed unworthy; and why only humanity? Furthermore, for a sentient being whose opinions of organic life is, and I quote. “Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.”

So we are nothing but a mutation, except are in actuality necessary for your existence? That would make us rather important. So either Sovereign was lying to our faces or the writers decided what was established in ME just did not happen, at least not as it was intended. This would be a plothole by the way.

As for LOTSB and the Omega 4 probes, I need to point this out since everyone keeps bringing it up. Did anyone actually LISTEN to the dialog? "The remains of the probes have been recovered." REMAINS. It means they were wrecked. Destroyed. Note that if you confront the broker prior to the Suicide Mission, he doesn't say anything about those probes, just that "The offer with the Collectors still stands." Which means those probes didn't reveal anything! Post-SM, he only knows about Shepard's success because he has cameras and listening devices on the Normandy.

Remains, sort of akin to Tali hacking a geth’s memory core and using the remains of data it had compiled to prove Saren's betrayal? Remains still equates to potential data. Regardless, they still came back; therefore more advanced probes would have survived and possibly collected vital data. Allow us to presume the probes were completely vaporized. From this knowledge, Cerberus concludes it is better to send a ship in there, where if Shepard fails… humanity is pretty much screwed? That would not be the best of strategies. You cannot argue pre-SM because LotSB has been mentioned as post-SM content. He sent probes before Shepard succeeded and they returned.

What if Shepard just destroyed the Omega 4 Relay, which would trap the Collectors since there seemed to be no alternative way in or out? And I have not even begun on the idiocy of the Collectors’ plan. You know, the one where one ship barely superior to an alliance Dreadnought is going to target Earth.

As for the dead Reaper, does everyone forget that both the Alliance and Council don't care what Shepard finds? You're with Cerberus, as long as you're with Cerberus, they can't trust you. So yeah, you find evidence, shame no one will listen since you're working with terrorists.

No, that is incorrect; they do not believe you because Shepard has been a moron and not provided any evidence. A derelict Reaper floating amongst space is pretty compelling evidence. Especially since you can offer the coordinates or point to a vid and say “See? Reaper.” Even if they did not believe you, it would have developed the plot because Shepard is still trying to prove the Reapers’ existence. Admittedly, it would mean the Council are complete idiots but hey, development is still a good thing.

Also, as for the comparison between the ME squad and ME2 squad. No. Blatantly untrue. Not everyone in ME1 has some importance during one time or another. Tali and Liara are technically the only ones who are absolutely necessary. Tali provides the info that proves Saren's guilt, and Liara pieces together the vision. Wrex, Garrus, and BOTH Ash/Kaidan don't do anything to advance the plot. Technically you only need Ash OR Kaidan to sacrifice on Virmire, which makes the other person largely unecessary as well. So out of six, only two people actually contribute. Why does each squadmate in ME2 HAVE to contribute to the main story? Technically their very existence at ALL contributes to the main story, by virute of the fact that you need the best soldiers, scientists, etc, to form a team that will cover basic fields of expertise. TIM doesn't know what you'll face, so he wants you ready for anything.

Aye, while the plot did not advance because of them. They existed and developed in the main plot. Everything we have learned from Wrex in regards to the Genophage and his people is put on display at Virmire and whether or not we assisted him in acquiring his armor alters the result. This simply does not happen in ME2. Having Garrus’ loyalty is a mechanic that helps prevent him from dying but not having it does not makes him a poor leader. His character is not developed outside his arc nor is the issues of his dilemma with Sidonis referenced.

The reason ME2’s cast should exist and contribute to the story with their opinion is because ME2 is supposedly a character driven game. ME was a plot centralized story and therefore the characters need not be involved as directly. Coincidently, while they may not advance the main plot, they do grow and develop during it.

In the end, ME2 does not develop. The world is completely unchanged and Shepard is no further ahead than she was when she defeated Sovereign. In lieu of expanding where ME left off, Shepard went off on a side story about the Collectors. That is not a good sequel but an excellent expansion game.

[Pacifien]

adam_grif wrote...
I'd like to add that comments to the effect of ..."yeah well ME1 didn't have much crew interaction either" are irrelevant since we are discussing what the game should have been, what it was missing etc, not having yet another mindless "ME1 vs ME2" thread.

After you spend all that time discussing what the game should have been, what's that going to make the game in the end? The same as it was before you started. Only now you're acutely more aware of how it's not everything you want it to be.

Not to say you can't discuss what should have been. I once spent 4 months trying to rewrite Return of the Jedi into a good movie. That was a failure, by the way, not that you're interested.

[adam_grif]

You sound bitter, Pacifien.

[Pacifien]

adam_grif wrote...
You sound bitter, Pacifien.

You'd be bitter, too, if you spent 4 months of your life rewriting Return of the Jedi.

[Bourne Endeavor]

FeelTheMighty wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...
This is minimal and a partial example of the wasted potential I found. Tali's loyalty mission is a diamond in the rough for Mass Effect 2 due to the abundance of angles eloquently spun and attached to conversations we had during Mass Effect. The loss of Legion being there was a horrendous design choice unfortunately because that was such a fundamental development arc.

So wait, you're saying that ME2 didn't expand on the Universe at all? What about the fact that you actually get to visit Tuchanka? That Geth station or whatever? Or getting to explore locations outside of Council control? Or the whole thing with the Shadow Broker? It most definitely does expand on the Universe. ME1 just told you about all these things in the Codex. You actually get to witness them in ME2.

It's those things that are the most important in Mass Effect. Not the Reapers.

No, I am saying the expansion was minimal. What you mentioned is parts of good content ME2's story provides however it should have been in greater abundance. Furthermore, this is somewhat irrelevant to the debate of why ME2's main plot is weak. All this expansion of the universe happened outside the main plot and ironically can be entirely skipped as Tali is not required to complete the game nor is one required to visit Tuchanka.

Slidell505 wrote...

It's story was horse ****. And the loyalty missions? Some of them were great (Legion, Garrus, Mordin) The other ones have been done a thousand times over. So has Garrus's but they did it well. Also Hudsons defends of the story of ME2 by saying it's main purpose wasn't to continue the story of ME1? He must really be trying to catch up with Kotick.

Loyalty Missions Bullet point.
Shepard, I have daddy issues.
Shepard, I have daddy issues.
Shepard, I have daddy issues.
Shepard, I am the daddy issues.
Shepard, I don't have a daddy I was raised in a lab, I have desk issues.
Shepard, I have child issues.
Shepard, I have tank issues.
Shepard, my friend betrayed me help me hunt him down for revenge.
Shepard, my friend betrayed me help me hunt him down for revenge.
Shepard, we have heretic issues.
Shepard, I accidentally an entire species for the good of the galaxy and now my protege is trying to undo it.

Words cannot describe the hilarity of this post. So...



And now that I have debated the ME series. I believe I will venture off to play it. Good debating all the same but I need some R&R for a bit.

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 09 janvier 2011 - 11:52 .

[adam_grif]

Pacifien wrote...

adam_grif wrote...
You sound bitter, Pacifien.

You'd be bitter, too, if you spent 4 months of your life rewriting Return of the Jedi.

I'm bitter anyway. It could be worse though, you could have had to watch the prequels a single time.

[cachx]

The Smoking Man wrote...

cachx wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...
Loyalty Missions Bullet point.
Shepard, My supposed dead father with wich I have no trauma about may still be alive, let's investigate!
Shepard, My crazy father is going to kidnap my sister, wich I in turn kidnapped when she was a baby.
Shepard, I need help rescuing my protege, and explore the ethics of of the genophage while we do so!
Shepard, my friend betrayed me help me hunt him down for revenge, and you might convince me to take a moral choice.
Shepard, I was raised in a lab to be a weapon, I need to face my past.
Shepard, I was made in a laboratory and grew up in a tank, show me my heritage and the ways of my people.
Shepard, I need to liberate a refinery and kill my enemy of 20 years.
Shepard, I need help stealing the only memory of my dead boyfriend.
Shepard, My whole race thinks I betrayed them because of my dad, and I need a lawyer.
Shepard, My son may be following my bad footsteps, also I'm dying.
Shepard, My daughter is a space vampire and I love her, but we need to kill her.
Shepard-Commader, the stuff we need to do is too complex to explain in a single sentence

fixed

You do a pretty good job at candy coating/spinning things. Trying to get a job in journalism, or perhaps in law or politics?

Oh, you make me blush. I'm not good at " candy coating/spinning things". It's just that the other poster is amazing at slinging bull ****.

[The Smoking Man]

cachx wrote...

I'm not good at " candy coating/spinning things".

I have dismissed that claim. Fox News would love your talent.

cachx wrote...

It's just that the other poster is amazing at slinging bull ****.

Ah yes, "heavy-handed opinions".

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:15 .

[wulf3n]

Ignoring the fact that even a good "character" driven story needs a good story, I'm curios as to why Bioware thought a character driven story is what the series needed.



Were people on the forums saying "For ME2 i don't want to try and solve the reaper threat, no. What I want to do, is solve the problems of random people who are completely irrelevant to the overall plot, because that's where the fun is." ?